Basejumper.com - archive

In the past I've had conversations with skydivers that express an interest in doing more things in jumping and they almost always include BASE in that list. Conversations about jumping usually cover how once they get better at someting like freeflying or four way they want to go do some BASE then maybe try out a wingsuit later. Just reading posts on here of jumpers with 100-200 skydives and how they want to "try" BASE jumping.

Here is a question... Should the BASE community promote or discourage this type of thinking? Is it right to encourage low time skydivers to try out BASE, or it BASE something they should find on their own?

Thoughts of BASE have crossed my mind many times, but all it takes is watching a basement level opening and I put the thoughts out of mind for a while again.

Dont take BASE do the skydivers - let the skydivers find and work to BASE.


Just my 2 large vodkas worth

I thuink its the perfect place to thouse people to ask their Q´s,its up to the BASE jumpers to guide them the best we can.

I dont think we should make BASE in a top place for people to try out,i think that thouse who has the desire to try out BASE.

I would ask skydivers who want to try out BASE,ask your self this Q:
Why do i want to try BASE?
If you want becours it looks cool then you might want to considder somthing else.

 "Do or do not...there is no try."
Yoda

Yeah.. line stretch is for pussys.

I think it should be worked for and not handed on a plate (even as an option),
i kinda like the semi-underground scene as it is, and i'm pretty sure there would be many grey haired BASE mentors too (who would also be in short supply).

But to answer your question as a low time jumper:

No.. i think it would be a little reckless until the minimum 'industry' figure is reached (150 - 200) and even then,
at least have good understanding and knowledge of BASE.

I prefer the time honored:


On the original topic:

I've really found that people with multiple thousands of skydives are far and away the best students of BASE. Honestly, I think it has more to do with attitude than anything else. They just don't feel a need to prove how cool they are in the BASE environment--they've already been through that stage skydiving. Of course, they tend to have better skills in general, but I think that's largely secondary.

On the issue of fewer skydives, say 10 skydives compared to 150? Or 150 compared to 500? I'm not so sure it makes a huge difference for some jumps (generally those that do not reach terminal). The average BASE student today has already (by 200 skydives) reached a point where they aren't really practicing BASE-applicable skills on their skydives (absent the very few who are CRW or Accuracy jumpers). Does another 200 jumps on their ZP 9 cell (often elliptical) canopy better prepare them for BASE? I kind of doubt it.

I guess the point I'm getting at is this: It's not really relevant how many skydives you have made (except as a general indicator of attitudes). What is important is type of skydives made.

So, if that potential BASE student is saying "I really want to get better at Accuracy/CRW/Max Tracking," then yes, I see a real point in waiting. But improving your head down isn't going to make you any better at BASE.

In fact, I've seen people with 400 skydives who were much _worse_ students of BASE than people with a ridiculously small (think double digits) number of skydives. Largely this was because the 400 jump freeflyer mostly learned that he was a bulletproof skygod over the course of his last 400 jumps. The non-skydiver hadn't had a chance to pick up the "skydiver mentality", and still had some appropriate respect for BASE.

As one of these newbies, it's hard to know what the more experienced people think of us. For sure there has been a number of people I know who have been taking their FJCs before me, and most of these people have less skydives than what I have.

I wasn't in a rush to get into BASE, but recently I was inspired by someone and I decided that the time has come (and I will be getting into BASE for myself, not for anyone else). But I didn't start skydiving to get into BASE. I started skydiving because skydiving was fun. But for some of these other people, they got into skydiving because they knew it was the route to BASE. So should these people be restricted because they've gotten into BASE before they've refined their experiences through skydiving? For most people I would say the answer is yes, but there are some gifted people out there who may be ready before others.

For myself, BASE is a complex discipline.

1) Knowing your gear inside out is a must (lesser experienced skydivers are at a disadvantage here, but not always).

2) Knowing how to pack is a must (once again, lesser experienced skydivers are at a disadvantage, but not always).

3) Knowing when to jump and when to stay put is a good skill (a lesser experienced skydiver may have more of a gung ho attitude here).

4) Knowing good body positions on your exits is a must (this probably has nothing to do with skydiving).

5) Having a good stable body position come pull time is a must (more experienced skydivers would likely have an advantage here).

6) Knowing how to handle malfunctions could save your life (a more experienced skydiver should be able to handle these scenarios better).

7) Knowing how to fly your canopy allows you to make that next jump (once again, experience in skydiving can only help here. But some people are better than other people when it comes to flying their canopies regardless of shear jump numbers).

So unless a low-time skydiver is serious about BASE and takes the appropriate BASE specific training (theory as well as get some canopy time under a large 7-cell), one would think that they should be discouraged from jumping into BASE before they build up the necessary skills in the skydiving domain.

BASE is not skydiving ... but what do I know about BASE? Not much compared to many of you out there.

the bottom line is that as more people get into BASE, the larger number of fatalities/injuries/arrests there will be, thereby marginalizing a "fringe" sport that much more.
That said, I wholeheartedly welcome anyone new in the sport, PROVIDED they are willing to pay their dues beforehand--getting the proper type/amount of training, having the proper amount of experience, etc (see Steve's post above).

It pains me to see more and more people asking "How many jumps do I need to begin BASE training?" It's one thing to be excited about starting something like BASE. It's quite another to actually do it, and do it safely. IMHO, THIS QUESTION SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO BE ASKED! You should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have the skydiving experience necessary to begin BASE.
THIS IS THE PART PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET:
I've seen it recommended that people get 200 skydives before they begin their BASE training.
Firstly, What is it about "MINIMUM" that people don't get? Straight Up: the more time you have under a parachute, the safer BASE jumper you will be.
Why would someone want to start BASE with the minimum amount of experience?
Along the same lines, your skydives can/should function as BASE training.
/rant

THIS IS THE PART PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO GET:
" The more time you have under a parachute, the safer BASE jumper you will be.
Why would someone want to start BASE with the minimum amount of experience?"


This statement the most, Sane- Strait Up- Undisputibly True- Piece of advice I have read this year so far.

...Ray Losli

The way I see it "the minimum" is that "minimum". It does not automatically mean that once you have 200 skydives you now are at the level to get into BASE.

Coming from the UK, with the weather so shite getting 200 skydives takes some people a couple of years, some less some more. Most of this time is spent learning to control your body in freefall, it’s a sad fact that a lot of people still see the skydive over once they pitch and deploy. In the formative early jumps not a lot of attention is paid to canopy control or knowledge, and these are essential in the BASE environment. I truly believe that the manufactures limits should be adjusted to people and their skydiving experience and not just jump numbers (this may already be the case, I don’t know)

Now you could have someone from the USA who wanted to BASE so started skydiving and managed to get in 200 jumps within 2 months and concentrated on large 7-cell canopy flight – this would then meet the “minimum” in my opinion. He would be more in tune to the BASE environment than someone with 500 jumps over 5 years and flies a 120 elliptical 9 cell ZP loaded at 2.0.

I took my FJC a couple of years ago and I had 500 skydives, I had made 100 large 7-cell F-1-11 hop n pops (I don’t count my early jumps under student canopies as going toward my canopy experience as some people seem to quote!) and landed away from the square trying out every approach I could think of – and I practised the CR Canopy drills to the letter, much to the piss taking of the DZ wondering why I was doing such a thing (practising for CRW was my response). I then went to TF with CR and did the FJC with a friend who had booked with me at the last minute – the difference on those first few jumps between us was noticeable in regard to the canopy control – he had wished he had spent time hopping and popping a 7-cell with me! Now the landing area at TF is very forgiving and large – once back in the UK I started jumping lower and more enclosed landing areas – this was an eye opener – canopies I found out respond differently when trying to fly straight from opening with 5 seconds to pick landing areas due to canopy and also the awareness I was yet to gain from such a quick and intense situation – I really wanted to have more experience then I already had and unfortunately its not the time to want this – it costs nothing to build and build experience in the skydiving environment whereas to learn in the BASE environment could prove fatal.

I look back now on my early jumps and do think “I should not have done some of those” – but I guess a lot of people say this and it’s a rare situation I think to not. Even though I had done what I thought was enough to have the experience I needed to start BASE suddenly you are thrown into a very stressful and intense arena that you can not practice for in the skydive environment – why would you want to be lacking in other areas like VERY GOOD canopy control and knowledge whilst in this arena? There are so many other things to think of other than “can I land this there without injury?” – As some said “why would you want to BASE with minimum experience??” – I would not.

I know its very easy to look back and say “do as I say not as I do / did” but in my limited time in this sport, all I can say to newbies is “listen to the more experienced people – they say these things for a reason and not to stop people entering the sport” – I deem myself lucky to get through the last 2 years jumping without injury – and that’s when I thought I was “skilful enough to enter the sport” by doing more than a lot of people did before they got into BASE.

Its all well and good having the skill to make a jump of a legal span in broad daylight with onlookers and a big arsed landing area – but unfortunately some of the best times and jumps will not be in this environment – it will be dark, lonely, intense, and small – it’s a completely different ball game then the cosy environment you started in. My first jump after my course, at night on a guyed A with hazards that could maim you was so much different I would say that the FJC in no way prepared me for what I was experiencing – I know of one person who did the TF FJC and on his first bandit jump in the UK off an A walked away and has never jumped again.

Anyway this is long and most probably VERY boring!!! But its pissing down with rain AGAIN here in the UK so you have to listen to my bullshit!!! Sorry!

Be safe people………. Have fun and be safe…………….

I whole heartedly agree with you.
>Doing a FJC in my opinion is the along with a couple/ three hundred skydives. Hopefully -(I am not saying this is good)- But you have had a couple of high stress situations Skydiving ( i.,e,) Malfunction/ Line over/line twists/ maybe some kind of cutta way situation, To put some kind of test on yourself ASK your SELF before you stat BASE--- How Do I Handel A High Stress, Canopy Situation ???
>It is safe to say that here in the states, the average BASE jump is,- 10 sec.or less - from your feet leaving till they touch the ground. That is no place to brain lock. but this is Where You Will Be Training.
>In those Ten Seconds, you have to, Exit object, Pull, Have opening,- All while Maintaining Good Body Positioning,- Assess your Heading and Make you heading correction, Release Toggles, Instinctively go to half breaks, Look and chose the correct landing spot,- All the time sinking it in- using slow flat turns, Flair it and land, (and here is the big one) Land Safely. Then get away.
>...Now throw a problem in there...Holy Crap, what do do now.

>All a FJC is in my opinion is to show you the bare minimum of the mechanics of BASE. so you can keep yourself alive in the easiest of objects. At the same time making you presentable enough to turn loose on the local jumpers so hopefully you can get Taught and Learn Something and NOT KILL THEM. ( you can kill yourself just don't burn the object.)
>...I wish I had taken a formal, first jump course... offered by a manufacturer, or someone with several hundred jumps.

BASE is a... ( I can't believe I am saying this) "SPORT". Where you play together. At the same time you are playing, you have to learn to FOLLOW your own Game Plan. ( i,e,) When to jump or when to walk away.
It is so easy to follow someone into a jump and get sucked in to something way over your head.
> YOU... Don't Have A Choice On This, It will happen to you as a jumper, once or twice. That is fact of life.
Then when you get some experience, learn not to DRAG someone with lesser experience into that situation.

Hopefully you have the luxury of Training and practicing your body positioning, and canopy mechanics on a forgiving object like a nice -A- or Idaho where the only object to strike is water or another jumper. Hopefully a three thousand foot, shear wall. That would be nice...

I am not trying to kill your motivation to learn to BASE. If you want to and think you can handle it THEN DO IT. I am -Happy- I did.
Have Fun

..Ray Losli..

If you think you're in a helluva predicament when you have thrown yourself out of an airplane..., Well just consider how bad a spot you are in when you have jumped off a fixed object without the gut level reactions required to rectify things gone wrong. The more time you have under canopy, or in freefall dealing with things at excellerated speeds under higher than average stress levels the better. The easier you can get into the present and stay there for the duration of the activity the better. If you can't then skydive until you can. If you can't totally concentrate on the immediate present without your mind wandering in reaction to stimuli stay away from BASE.

It isn't a stage of skydiving. It's a stage of risk. You're really turning up the burner here but only if you're ready, willing and able.

The same can be said for A5 aid climbing. I wish Earl Redfern could participate in this discussion. He had wonderful insight into the highest levels of risk and the commensurate responsibilities.

Just because you can fly your skydiving canopy does in now way mean you can fly a F111 base canopy into a very tight landing area at night with cops coming to say hello...talk about pressure....

I belive Basic Research has a 150 jump requirement.

If you are going off the bridge in Idaho, I don't think there is a real problem.

It's legal, It's daytime. You can have an off heading opening and there is a lot of places to land.

The odds are stacked in your favor.

Is this unsafe, probably not.

It's the nightime jumps off the cliffs with tiny landing areas that make it dangerous. You are leaving yourself with few outs, and everything has to go perfectly if you don't want to die.

Thats where the people with 3000 skydives are going to do better.

It all depends on what kind of Base Jumping you are planning on doing.

In Australia its even more apparent....canopy skills are not a fluffy option, they're a survival skill!

Where the line lies is up to the tutor, but never take someone's word on their ability if the jump numbers are low, see it for yourself first; I mean do you really want to find out the guy with 200 jumps can't land a canopy after they've frapped in, burned a site and caused you to be hauled off by the cops?!!

I know an Aussie who managed to convince a very experienced and respected BASE mentor to teach him when he had only a relative handful (maybe 50?) of skydives. He actually turned out fairly well, in my opinion. Of course, I might be biased because he taught me.

Funny that....

I'm not saying don't teach 'em, I'm saying see what their abilities really are, which should be a consideration whatever they say they can do....

Which reminds me....