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TomAiello, you were writing about "AD's Smoking Pants" at bird-man.com's forum. As you mentioned them being "far better than the Bird-man version" and as bonus "about a tenth of the cost" you got me interested. Could you tell more about the suit/pants? Is it someones own 'homemade' invention or is it available somewhere? Any pictures? Any specs how to make a pair by myself?

-Harri-

I think the typical cost is around US$20 per pair.

I am not alone in thinking that they fly better than the Birdman version. I have talked to several other folks who think the same thing.

The Smoking Pants generally have significantly greater surface area, as a result of a crotch that is much lower (just above the knees), and larger sizes.


It is a 'homemade' invention, but it's pretty easy to 'home make' yourself a pair. I know several people who are using them, including most of the Norwegian track masters, and most of the folks interested in tracking who saw them used in Norway.


I don't own any pictures. I do own a pair of the pants, so I can take some photos and post them in a bit, if you like. Unfortunately, that won't show you what they look like inflated. Perhaps someone out there has a photo of them in flight that they can share?

It's fairly easy to make them yourself. Buy a big pair of waterproof rain pants. They should be long enough to extend halfway down your foot. Light a cigarette (hence the name, I believe the original pair were made by the Smoking Man at the exit, using his cigarette), poke four (or so) holes into the front of each leg, just above the crotch. Use duct tape to cover any holes elsewhere that would allow air to escape when inflated. Use duct tape or a belt to secure them tightly around your waist. Pull them down around the tops of your shoes and tape around the leg cuffs (attaching them to your shoes in as airtight a manner as possible). Exit, and keep your arms out in a delta-like position so you don't get thrown head down.

Obviously, you can get more sophisticated (my pair have mesh inlets and velcro straps to secure to the feet), but it's not really necessary.

Let me see if I can convince the Smoking Man to post on here and give a better explanation.

edit: added belt

2 Shows a close up of some last minute modifications to the pants
3 Shows the man making the alterations
4 is a launch where you can see the elasticated legs around the shoes
5 is a zoomed in shot of the pants inflating only a second or two after exit
6 is a shot of the three way opening up. The other two are world class BASE jumpers themselves

I think the man belted them at the top too?

Definitely. I know of one case where a pair were unbelted and ended up around a jumpers ankles, resulting in an out of control spin and early deployment.

Is the other jumper in the launch shot wearing Bird-man pantz?

And, is that the same jumper we see opening well behind the smoking pants?

Just trying to establish a pantz/pants comparison.

Okay guys....

This is interesting stuff here. I thought about doing this to a pair of ripstop nylon rain pants I have, but instead of holes, cutting out small sections and having a rigger sew in large hole mesh. Only problem, I just don't know where to make the modification at.

Also, would pants like these benefit a jumper from let's say, freefalls only in the 4-7sec range from "A's"?

cya
Rod

That's what my pair look like.


As long as the inlets are on the front, they're going to be better than nothing. If you are wearing the pants under your harness (it's better to wear them on top), you'll need inflation holes below your leg straps for fastest inflation (otherwise, the pants will be pinched off).


Definitely. The Smoking Man has noticeable forward movement only a few (3 or less) seconds into his jump. In theory, the bigger the inflated surface area, the sooner you should begin to see forward motion.

I was thinking about this too, and while they might not give you the foward drive that you would get from long delays wouldnt they inflate faster giving you more "working surface area", less of a mushy feeling in the dead air? I dont know seems logical though, right?

I was thinking about getting pantz for when I started BASE jumping but now I think I'll save 200 dollars and make these! Thanks for the info guys!

I believe so. In fact, both of the jumpers opening up behind were wearing them. Although I think they had only just received them so they hadn't done many jumps on them.

Any amount of surface area will not help in dead air. Free fall control in zero airspeed is dependent on gymnastic ability and body momentum, not air deflection. I haven't noticed any "mushy" feeling at all.

You can also see that the leg straps are over the top, which inhibits inflation.

On the other hand, in August I saw him tracking almost to the landing area (!), which is pretty much mind blowing.

The best advertisement for the Smoking Pants is probably the Trak Pantz for sale in the BASE office in Lysebotn. They belonged to the instructor there this year (who isn't a half bad tracker himself--he was the first to out-track Smell, I believe), but he had no use for them since he had gotten a pair of Smoking Pants. I don't think anyone else bought them, though.

A disclaimer for anyone reading this discussion: the Smoking Man was probably one of the world's best trackers before he made the pants--don't expect to rival his performance unless you are willing to put in the many jumps that he has dedicated solely to tracking skills.

True that.

Trying to emulate his tracking skills simply by wearing the same pants he is wearing could be a disaster.

I'm not wanting to track across a valley, just want to get a few more feet of horizontal seperation from the steel.

One last question about the pants, or any baggy pants for that matter..

Does wearing such pants accentuate a head-low body position? I guess what I'm asking is, do you need to be more concious of trying not to get head down with the pants, especially in the first few seconds?

Rod

Definitely. Tracking with some kind of inflatable pants tends to throw you into a head down position. Most people are tracking with their arms out in a delta position, to balance the body position. You can see the body position in photo #5 in cpoxon's post above.

Hi,
I uploaded a picture of my SmokePants. I put black dots on the holes I burnt to make it easier to see them. These are the second pants I made. They have bigger and more holes than the first pants I made for quicker inflation.
One of the pictures cpoxon postet shows me burning holes on the lower leg, that didnt work very well. Now I only have the holes you see on the picture.
They cost me about $12....and that was including a jacket...

Atle Dahl (or The Smoke Man...as Tom like to call me...)

Thanks Smokeman

It's much clearer now.

Hi Atle!
Thanks for posting a picture of your smoke pants.
One question arises, though, because the reinforcement that can be seen in the inside of your "originally rain" pants is misleading:
Are the holes in the front of the pants or in the back of the pants?
Thanks so much for your reply and congratulation for your inventive ability and also for your tracking skills!!!

The holes are on the front of the pants. (i.e. the side of the jumper that faces the ground).

Yes, if you do a perfect tracking exit you can get forward movement after 1-2sec. I´m actually thinking of using the pants for slider down 2-3sec jumps. If I can get 10-30 feet further away from the object, with a 180 that could be the difference of a cliffstrike or just a closer look...
The perfect tracking exit is very difficult to nail every time, so I would NOT recommend to try this on a sliderdown jumps unless you know you can nail it every time. Its easy to end up headdown...

Smokeman

Yo smokedude

What kind of tracking practice did you do in skydiving to get your technique perfect? Two way max tracks with video or just general (ie bigger way) tracking dives? Or is it just a natural talent for Norgies?

Will

Well, I didn´t really practice much tracking when I was skydiving. I guess I had a pretty good track, but it was when I started basejumping I really got into tracking. I´m lucky enough to live in Stavanger, close to Kjerag, and I think a lot of bigwall jumping is what did it for me. In basejumping you got the references and by jumping the same object over and over again its easy to see when your doing good or not so good. Tracking to the water from exit 7 then from exit 6 and then from exit 5. Now the goal is the main landing area from exit 5...and the water from exit 4. Nearly there, but still room for improvement.
I think that is probably the reason why there is so many good trackers in Norway, we got plenty of bigwalls to choose from. I´m heading up north to the really big walls tomorrow, can´t wait to get some really long flights!!

Smokeman

I can say first hand, that after watching Atle track with the smoke pants I felt like a dumb ass for spending what I did on my tracking pantz. He is the man!
Hey Alte, I have a package ready to mail to you. Just have to make it to the post office. You will enjoy it!

C-Ya
Dave Overland

Hey, hey! Dave, YOUR the man!! Can´t wait to get the package, I think I will enjoy it very much!

Thanks!
Atle

So the leg straps go beneath the holes?? Or when you put the leg straps on, the holes are on top of the leg straps?

Perhaps a picture of someone with their rig on wearing the pants before they jump would be really great to see where the holes are

Thanx!

This is the best picture I could find....a video grab. Once again I have put black dots on the holes to show them better. The pants go over the leg straps. You put the rig on first, then the pants.
Hope this is clear enough.

Smokeman

 
Hey, hey! Dave, YOUR the man!! Can´t wait to get the package, I think I will enjoy it very much!

Thanks!
Atle
Atle,
I have a package for you too. I will wait a couple weeks to send it so you can enjoy Dave's first. Thanks for the ride across the mountain and for letting us stay at your place.
I made some pants. I put grommets in the front and they work pretty good.

Ahhh, I see!!

Thanks for that.

I wonder how they'd do in skydiving when you exit a plane and you already have all that speed....

Only got one skydive with them. A couple of unintended flips in the exit, but then a looong flight. Jumped with a ProTrack and it recorded 99sec from 13.000feet, pulling altitude 2500feet. I think the average speed was something like 74mph.

Smokeman

Holy guacamole! You should change your login to Smokeman!!

I wonder what will happen if you make the holes bigger??

Thanks TomAiello, cpoxon, 'Smokeman'. Nice pants, nice pictures. I think I have to get back into habit of smoking, at least for one cigarette. I am going to make a pair and give them a try from a plane.

Do you have your shoes inside the pants? Like in kind of booties? In the Smokeman's picture the pants are (taped?) tight at ankles. Could it be possible to get more forward 'power' that way?

-Harri-

The other jumper looks like Vibeke??? She was jumping with Kim not Atle.

Meeker

Hey Atle and CPoxon

I'd like to include this "design" into a presentation on design and six sigma process variation. Are these pics public domain?

Maybe you can drop me a line to discuss...I'd like to give credit where it's due (and it's most certainly due here)

Awesome stuff.

Skinflicka@hotmail.com

Hey Skin,

No credit due here, I just shot some video. The Smoking Man is the deserving one. But yes, you are free to use the screen grabs as you please if Atle doesn't mind.

I don´t mind... But I´m interested in your presentation. Can you tell me about it?
mail@atledahl.com

Smokeman

Here`s a little video clip of the SmokePants in action:
http://www.atledahl.com/exit5_28sec.mpg

Smokeman

Outstanding!

I've mirrored this file to SkydivingMovies.com

I used QuickTime to play this but it was a bit jerky. Anyone know where I can get an mp4v codec for use with Media Player?

More Atle with his smokes:

http://users.utu.fi/.../FF+Kjerag/4-way.MPG

check the other videos too..

Vesa

Have som probs with playing .mp4 files too, but
I just renamed it to .mpg (after it has d'loaded) and it plays nice in my mediaplayer. Got most codecs installed though

http://support.microsoft.com/...d=kb;en-us;316992#34

Is there any reinforcement around the holes to keep it from tearing? I imagine that a suddenly torn pant leg would make for bad news.

I imagine the heat would sear/melt the edges of the holes, especially in a man-made materials like nylon.

I think someone spoke of sewing grommets onto the pants as holes. That's what I intend to do with my rain pants I have collecting mildew in my hiking backpack. I'm not that great a tracker, but after I make them I'll give ya'll a report! Will be good to see how a "newbie" can handle them.

(strictly in a skydiving environment at this point )

I used grommets in mine. I put about 15 in the front of the pants and they worked really well until the seam in the right leg gave out. It tore out about 2 feet of the leg. I didn't have any stability problems. In fact I didn't know they tore out until I landed. That was only the second skydive on them. Pretty weak. I'm going to reinforce all of the seams on the next pair.

This might be of interest to UK jumpers.

I bought a pair of bike rain pants from this place. Only cost £18 (inc. P+P). What the ad doesn't say (and I was very pleased to discover) is that the pants have two layers. So, I have just burnt the holes in the outer layer. The lower legs also unzip to give a nice big '70s style flare (ie where they unzip there is more fabric the leg isn't exposed).

The fabric quality and stitching _seems_ good - I'll try them out this weekend at the DZ and give some feedback next week.

Will

so if you guys had to make a rule of number of skydives before you could safely try one of these...what number would you give??

im not planning to rush into anything but damn, these sound awesome!