Basejumper.com - archive

hi guys
I'm taking up BASE soon and I've gotten the following equipment advice from the (few) BASE jumpers I know:

CR Blackjack
(rather than Ace, for better sinking/backing up performance)

WLO toggles

Morpheus Gargoyle
(dynamic corners, pin protector flap, pins rather than velcro because they can be set lighter and don't need periodic replacing like velcro does)

I would welcome any comment on these recommendations from people with experience with these products and/or BASE.

I'm not trolling by suggesting pins and vents for a beginner, so flame away if you feel the need.

thanks

Are the WLO toggles from Vertigo? If so, remember that those toggles are designed for Vertigo risers, which are minis. This means if you go with a Gargoyle, make sure it's set up to take mini risers rather than the standard size ones.

As far as the Ace vs Blackjack goes, most folks here I think would steer you away from valved canopies for your first one. If you'll be jumping a lot of low stuff, then that might be the way to go, if you're doing more high jumps, you might want to consider an Ace.

For the record, my Ace opens and handles just dandy high & low.

As far as pins vs velcro goes, I went againt a lot of folks' advice and got a Warlock. Closing the container wasn't a problem, but you do seem to need to be a lot more careful in making sure you don't distort the packjob while closing it. Food for thought.

Shouldn't that be "mini-rings" rather than mini-risers? I don't know of any BASE manufacturers who make mini-risers. And large rings have a better load ratio than mini-rings from what I've read and heard. Fortunately, we don't have that "smaller is better" mentality in BASE.

Cya.

Doh! My bad. Yes.

Furthermore, I would like to add the following. If you want to use the WLO by Vertigo, you must buy the WLO toggle/riser system, you CANNOT use only the WLO toggles.
The reason of this being that the WLO toggles have their "stiff" part (that in all the toggle/riser systems is sticked under/into the keeper on the riser to set the brake) being a straight steel pin, and its keeper on the riser is made just for and only for the straight steel pin. Plus, they have got a snap (besides the velcro) to be kept secure (=more secure).
I have got a BR complete rig (Prism+Fox), and for using WLO toggles on my rig, I had to buy the complete WLO togglle/riser system, whose risers I ordered with LARGE rings (if you ask, Vertigo is going to put large rings on their risers).

Next question:

Which one of these 3 manufacturers is doing the best FJC?

Why did you want large rings as opposed to mini rings on your rig?

Ya know, when I was out in Moab I asked Marta this question, because a few jumpers thought it was unusual that Vertigo was using mini rings on their risers.

Marta seems to be fairly style-conscious, so she felt the minis were more fashionable. I also asked if she felt there would be any compromise in strength by going to minis and she said that the strength ratings on mini rings were extremely high, well within the margins of any BASE utilization.

And if you think about it, the big argument against minis in the skydiving context doesn't have anything to do with strength, it has to do with potential ring hang-ups during a cutaway (the bigger rings have less of a tendency to bind up).

Since cutaways aren't really a consideration for us (unless we're hanging in a tree or a set of guy wires ), there really isn't a reason I can think of to shy away from minis.

Anyone?

Don't quote me on this, but aren't the mini's a 10:1 ratio while the large rings are 100:1? It all has to do with the moment arm that is created through the ring system, with larger rings resulting on less force on the white loop.

This info came from a good BASE rigger friend of mine, who specifically discussed this issue with Mr. Booth. I could be wrong on my numbers, but as a mechanical engineer by day, I'm sticking with large rings.....

Simply because my rig had big rings and so I keep the same standard!!!!!
And even if it would be possible to attach risers with minirings onto harness with big ring, for BASE I prefer so much to have risers with BIG rings because they have got a much better load ratio, as BASE #428 wrote above, and so, they (=big rings risers) have a much better "tollerability" with respect to manufacturing tolerances, i.e., even if they come slightly out of specifications (with respect to "perfect" manufacturing measurements), they still have a good safety margin.

Vertigo has been making all of our risers mini ring type 8 for 15 years and will continue to do so. Marta Empinotti used to work at the Relative Workshop and both of us attended a 3-ring manufacturing, and specifications seminar. We witnessed several risers pulled to destruction.(very cool) The interesting thing is that the risers break consistently where the type 8 webbing wraps around the harness ring. The risers(both mini ring and large ring type 8) are so overbuilt, if you actually had an opening that would break the riser, There wouldn't be enough of you left to save. The big issue with mechanical advantage is with cutaway force, NOT riser destruction. I highly recommend not cutting away with a single parachute container unless there is a cop attached to your pilot chute. You can use mini ring risers on large ring set up containers but you can not use big ring risers on RW-8(mini) equipped rigs. The design specs on BOTH large ring type 8 risers and small ring type 8 risers are +/- 1/16 of an inch on every dimension. This means that they both must be manufactured within the same tolerances.
NOW, apart from looking very sleek and sexy, the gap around the harness ring on mini ring risers is smaller than the gap around the harness ring on large ring risers. This allows the riser to float around on the harness ring more, giving you just a bit different loading on each jump. I've seen big ring risers actually float all the way around on a big ring equipped harness, so that the riser had to be reset to load correctly on the harness ring. In my opinion the 3-ring loop was a bit long, allowing for this. The whole point to this is that whether you use mini ring risers or big ring risers, they are not going to break when manufactured, assembled and maintained correctly, so quit worrying about it, there's plenty of other things to worrry about out there.

Jimmy P- Vertigo Base Outfitters

 
Mini_Risers Suck . . .

Jimmy is right, of course, as there is a time in BASE jumping when no one really knows which direction to follow, as skydiving and BASE jumping gear starts to become more jump specific. The story of mini-risers being used for BASE jumping is the very story of mini-risers themselves.

Mini-risers appeared on the scene when skydivers are still faced with canopies that are too big too land well. Weight was everything in those days and you emptied the change from your pockets before every jump.

So while mini rings (the hardware itself) is fine for BASE jumping the weak sister is the Type 17 risers that went along with them. These one inch risers would hold 2500 pounds per leg until you drilled a hole in one to facilitate the grommet for the Three Ring. Now there’s just a ¼ inch on either side of the grommet (really a hole in the riser) that holds you.

Mini rings are fine as long as they are installed on type eight risers. Poynter’s Manual states opening shocks can attain 15 g’s for a nano second (especially slider removed) and you can ask, “The Pick,” who busted a mini riser (type 17 riser) when he whistled in off Hal Dome.

BASE rigs are subject to lots of abuse, they get slammed in car doors, left in the bushes overnight, and generally they need to be over built especially when considering it all has to work, the first time, every time.

Pure Mini-Risers Suck . . .

Nick
BASE 194

Absolutely, no one I know is interested in mini risers for BASE. Just FYI, the mini riser that broke for Pick was the old non-reinforced mini risers which were completely recalled from skydiving for this reason.
Jimmy

The 10 second delay with no slider probably didn't help that too much.