Basejumper.com - archive

Since your bored........pin vs. velcro????????
Philip

he he
I personal havnt jumped a pin rig(ordered mine while i were injuried).

I have heared from most Jumpers that you should start whit a velcro.So ill recomend that aswell,ill try to find Tom´s post about new in the sport

EDIT: http://www.dropzone.com/...MyFirstBASERig.shtml

I'm up in the air on that right now. My main rig has been a two-pin rig, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm distorting my pack job when I close the thing. I just put my primary main in in my Reactor and I'm going to put a few jumps on that to see if it has any impact on heading performance.

I'll keep y'all posted.

please tell aswell if you discover somthing pni vs velcro.i thourgth on it the other way but cant test it at the time

There have been several very good threads on this topic at BLiNC. I'm pressed for time just now, but I'll see if I can dig them up and post a link tomorrow.

I hate pin rigs; they suck. Velcro is much better.

How's that for brevity?

Peace,

D-d0g

Don't say things like that. ;)

I hear from everyone that wingsuit BASE should be done with a pin rig. Are there differeing views?

No. Wingsuit BASE definitely needs to be done with a pin rig. I know only one jumper who still makes wingsuit jumps on a velcro rig, and even he stops short of recommending that anyone else do it.

Pins are recommended for wingsuit flights by pretty much everyone who is a recognized expert on the subject, including Bird-man, every major BASE gear manufacturer, and that Russian fellow with all the BASE, wingsuit and BASE wingsuit jumps.

That's what I thought. I'm assuming Doug's reply was taking WSs into consideration.

Yep, wingsuit stuff is most certainly the exception. Otherwise, pin rigs are more trouble than they are worth.

Just one Dogs opinion. . .

Peace,

D-d0g

can i ask why? i'm looking at getting a pin rig and since birdman BASE is definately on my to do list i figured getting one now would save getting another rig later, but i'm very interested to hear as many opinions as possible on the subject..(here and elsewhere)

I'm definitely not the authority on this, but even I know, do NOT go pin first. Do NOT go right into wingsuit BASE. Get BASE experience first.

Speaking of which, I'm considering wingsuit BASE myself, which would require getting current on BASE again. Doug and/or Dwayne, I know you're in Portland, or nearby at least. I may have to hit you bastards up for some guidance.

I'll PM or e-mail if/when I've decided. I know I want to, but I have to make sure I need to, er... something like that. Damn, I sound like a chick.

Drop a note any time; happy to meet up and perhaps do some jumps. I'm in PDX until mid-June, and then moving to der Schweitz after that.

Regarding my distaste for pin rigs, a quick synopsis:

1. There are known fatalities caused by packing errors in pin rigs (leaving pullup cord in, etc.); I know of no fatalities caused by velcro rigs (at least since the introduction of the shrivel flap).

2. Packing pin rigs is a pain in the ass, and generally requires more pushing and shoving of the packjob to get it closed which could, theoretically, make a less-symmetrical packjob.

3. Doing a bridle check on a velcro rig is piss simple -follow the bridle to the shrivel flap, that's it. Pin rigs are harder to check before jumping, doubly so if it is dark, or if one is doing a static line jump solo and needs to manually feel out whether the bridle is routed ok, pins are ok, etc.

4. Statistically, a velcro rig opens based on thousands of individual velcro "fingers" ripping independently of one another. The collective result of the shrivel flap opening up therefore is likelty to have a highly predictable envelope within which it happens, as the sum total of those thousands of individual "tears" is governed by statistical dynamical math. In contrast, a pin rig is 100% dependent on one (or two) points of "failure" and the behavior of those points is going to have far more outliers than the collective behavior of the velcro. If even 1 out of 1,000 single-pin openings behaves erratically, that's a big issue for me - what if that is the one jump I take really low, etc? Velcro behaves like water flowing over a rock, consistent.

5. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Velcro is, my itself, simpler than a pin setup. The pin setup (outside of wingsuiting) has no benefit over velcro, but is more complex. Thus, removing the pins from the system makes it simpler, more predictable, and safer.

6. Packing a pin rig takes loger than a velcro-closed rig (even if only a minute or two), Packing a pin rig also requires one more tool (pullup cord), which is one more thing to cart around and potentially forget.

Anyway, that's my highly-personal analysis of the pin/velcro situation. Others, I am sure, disagree.

Peace,

D-d0g

D-dog just cant find out in which order to close it
D-dog i have a reactor whith a fox225 if the prce is rigth,its good used but no blood(sorry my black humor,but im nearly sure im the only one who have trasslanded it).
In Swiss all summer?

Disclaimer: I have jumped both velcro and pin rigs but I am NO expert. Just my opinion but...

I disagree with D-dog. I think a pin rig is far superior to a velcro rig and here's why:

You control the force needed to open the container. You can have the container secure for a high jump that may include areials or you can have the container open with next to no pull force for very low jumps.

THIS IS ALSO A NEGATIVE!!!! It is one more thing to screw up...moral of the story: Don't fuck this up.

Now I feel that a pin rig can do ANYTHING a velcro rig can plus more. Yes, there are "moving parts" to screw up but I feel that if you are BASE jumping you are smart enough to handle it.

This can also be accomplished with a velcro rig by partially "priming" the velcro.


Haha - you must not have jumped with many Aussies

Peace,

D-d0g

Word, I am without camera, but I'm down for ground crew should a camera be available. I think I'd like to get at least a dozen ground crew trips in before going up again.

Just my own two cents, My first rig was a twp pin rig. It was a great decision. I realized this when an experienced jumper showed me something. He put a packed pin rig and a packed velcro rig beside each other and picked them both up by the pc. The pin rig opened, the velcro rig did not. The pins were pretty tight too. The comment about misrouting the bridle and forgetting pull-up cords and stuff make me laugh, I know mistakes can happen but if you are not thourogh enough with you pack job to overlook these things, then maybe BASE is not the sport you should be doing.
Just my two cents.

Pin rigs definitely open easier than velcro.

However, the primary danger in pin rigs is a premature dump when going hand held, i.e. arm extension tensions the bridle too much or bridle exposure to the wind during the hand held exit, which could also create tension on the pin(s).

The other significant danger is pin(s) release during movement in a constrained environment, such as some tower climbs. This was the primary reason the first velcro base rig was built. And this was the primary reason Yuri suggested a mod to stiffen the closing flap on Vertigo's 2 pin rig.

What is needed is a slightly more user friendly system that incorporates some velcro to remedy these problems. Also, velcro is noisy allowing the wearer to be readily conscious of any problems. Interestingly, I trained in a loft by the person who co-invented the shrivel flap with Phil Smith, BASE #1.

One way of incorporating velcro into a pin rig would be to place a peice of velcor on the bridle and mate it to a peice of velcro just bellow the pins (after market stuff here). This way you could go hand held and any bridle flap would be stoped at the velcro.

I do not diagree with your points, but I do feel that as with any equipment we use there are aspects that we need to pay attention to, enough slack in the bidle while going hand held, not to much slack while going hand held, longer delays, more than two seconds, require a stowed deployment instead of hand held. Climbing within an constained area requires the jumper to be aware of his or her gear, a quick feel with hand will tell you if your bridle has been snagged. I almost always jump with a buddy so I have a second set of eyes for pin checks.

I think with all the advancements over the past few years we all have to be aware of the dangers that introducing new equipment into the sport can create, Just as with the velcro rig, someday someone will ask if they should buy a new fancy type of container or the good old pin rig.

I personnally think we will start to see a decline in the sales of velcro rigs. Just as we will start to see a increase in the sales of vented canopies. And in 10 years there will be something else we will all be arguing about wether we should buy or not.

DANGER!

The original Prism, from Basic Research, was built this way.

Unfortunately, that extra piece of velcro doesn't shrivel, so a head down deployment can lead to a pilot chute in tow. After the little Aussie reported this to BR, they offered to retrofit existing Prisms and changed the "standard". They still offer this configuration on request. I believe it is a very bad idea.

please explain the dangerous configuration. If you look at some velcro rigs they have a little velcro square at the bottom of the container that you can stick the bridle to. Is that enough to cause hesitation?

No, I think Tom is referring to velcro added to the closing mechanism of a pin rig. The bit of velcro you are describing is designed to control the bridle when going handheld, thereby preventing it from looping under the back corner of the rig before deployment, and causing a pilot chute in tow.

There is a reported fatality due to this type of bridle "entanglement;" hence the addition of the bit of velcro to control the bridle.

Previously, a poster suggested that unnecessarily complex technology is ok in BASE, since we should all be careful enough in packing to catch potentially fatal errors before they occur.

This is a highly dangerous attitude to have in our sport. A key factor in the relative safety of BASE gear is both its simplicity and its design to minimize the ease with which fatal packing errors can occur. Nowadays, many jumpers around the world do hundreds of jumps a year - while some Americans think 20 or 30 a year is a big deal, this is not globally representative.

With that many jumps being done by that many jumpers, any stupid gear design that makes fatal packing mistakes relatively easier will, in time, cause a fatality. Chiding jumpers for being "careless" in packing gear that is poorly designed sort of misses the whole point - the goal of BASE gear is not only safety but also consistency and ease of use.

I am not referring specifically to pin rigs, to be clear - while I personally think they are marginally more complex than velcro and thus marginally more "dangerous" when used over a deep sample size of jumps, others disagree and in any case these are very small variants being discussed. However, there are other gear and/or rigging choices that can, in fact, increase danger by making it easier to make a fatal packing mistake.

We need look no further than 2002's fatalities to see at least one example of a packing technique that, if done improperly, can (and did) cause a fatality. It is exactly these types of situations - where it is both easy to make a mistake packing, and that mistake would have terrible consequences - that should never - NEVER - be accepted in BASE.

so-called diot-proof technolgy not only protects idiots, but also protects everyone else from the undeniable vagaries of statistical fluctuation.

Peace,

D-d0g

I agree,but sometimes you have to calculate if the tool your using is good to you or not.

I belive its a personal dessision.Do you mean this gear is the rigth one to the job,is it whithin your personnal safe margn?then its the rigth for you(unless its becours you dont know better)
I belive most of us wont do some of thouse extreme arials,some does around the world,we all have our personal limit.I think its the same in the gear thing.some wants the most simpel,some wants the newest high tech.Some goes the mittelway

Here we go :) I did register ... so now I can spend even more time on the www instead of jumping.

I just like to emphasize this. I have one of the early Prism. It came with this configuration (with a long velcro stripe along the side). On my third jump I did go head down and had quite a hesitation as a result. No big deal when you go slider down and take one second delay from 250m ;) but anyway.

You do really need to be careful with a Prism with this configuration. If you have one or are buying a Prism and intend to use it for sub terminal jumping I recommend you to get the rig updated.

But as always, who am I to tell you what to do ... or not to do.

And Tom, thanks for putting in all the work to manage this forum.

SeeYa
PerFlare

Please forgive my English. It is not my first language.

Last year at the Friflaj festival in Sweden they showed an ultralow wingsuit chop on the big screen. Was that your chop? You could actually hear the collective plop as the audiences asses puckered...

Pink reserve?Yes i think that were Per Flare,that were close,good reaction stearing it

Hi,

Yes it was me who managed to almost get my self killed there, fortunately I did turn my camera on so I could please my brother and sisters with the footage ;)

It scared the crap out of me but it was quite a ground rush, at least when you consider that I was using skydiving gear ;)

On a serious note. Me, and especially my mother, was pleased to see that reservride come out okay. I do hope nobody are jumping those wingsuits without the modification made after this ... well ... incident.

SeeYa
PerFlare

I think that this is important to discuss stuff like this. I have never meet d-dog so sharing info online is the only way to hear his thoughts. I think d-dog seems ( could be faking ) like a really knowlagable guy. And if you stop learning in BASE then you start increasing your chances of injury exponentailly.

Yeah, that little velcro guy that will prvent bridle entaglment "should" also prevent flaping of the briddle from extracting the pin. Ofcourse if you are fallling long enough for the flaping of the bridle to be an issue you could just go stowed and negate that.

As for the increased complexity...I think that is more of a personal opinion. I do not feel my Vertex is overly complex, but that is just my opinion. I also want to point out that the packing mistake that you mention was on a velcro rig.

As my friend Per knows, once you meet me in person you'll no longer think I know much of anything

To clarify once again, my general comments regarding unsafe BASE gear design should not be taken as applying to modern pin rigs - I believe modern pin rigs are structurally sound, and it is my personal preference alone that leads me to use velcro rigs. I used the discussion of pin rigs to leap off into a more diffuse discussion of BASE gear design, nothing more.

Peace,

D-d0g

I would have to say that I would be a little nervous if the motivation behind new gear advancements was to make the gear idiot proof. I would prefer that gear manufacturers and jumpers would be looking for ways to improve consistency in openings, reliability in heading control, eliminating common malfuctions. I beleive making changes for the sake of idiots hurts the rest of us. Are we going to have bridles that do not remove from the canopy, risers that cannot be removed, pilot chutes that cannot be changed, or whatever was the cause of a few BASE fatalities. This is not meant to say that I don't wish it only took me 10 minutes to pack instead of 45.

I think that Base jumping in general, not just packing, requires a high level of gear knowledge and awareness. Just as in skydiving you need to know how to fly a canopy befor you can swoop a pond. As to in BASE you need to know the fundamentals of rigging to pack a BASE rig.

If you make BASE to simple then we might attract a jumper who may have no business in this sport to start with and just asking for an accident. As I know everyone understand, BASE is dangerous, no matter how you cut it. And if you are not paying attention, mother earth is going to jump up and bite you in the ass.

I've seen you around, and you do look pretty dumb. j/k... kinda.

Just scored a PC10, so I'll be able to do ground crew pretty soon.

I wish things were as simple as Basejumperjeff suggests.

Two things: after 300 tower climbs, some from 250 and many up to 2000, pin rigs are impractical on towers. they also are impractical for super-sneaking or cliff climbing.

It only takes one mistake to end your life or be paralyzed. think about yourself in the field packing over and over and making one little mistake with results that would horrify your friends and family. The best equipment is the simplist. You can complicate matters, but there is that 1 in a 1000 factor associated with complicated equipment that will arise without any predictions.

I have just got my #1 pin rig,i have never jumped it.I would like to know were to be ekstra careful vs velcro then.
Most i know jumps pin rig.I have 30 jumps in a velcro rig,and even whith new velcro, i can open it by(dont know the word)stretching/making a cannonball or so.I have tryed that i had to secure the velcro while climbing.
I thourgth that the pin would be more safe also by climbing.
Any idea how to secure a pin rig better in that case then?

Is your velcro rig used? The veclro shouldn't separate that easily. Put new velcro on, for sure.

This test were done the day after i got new velcro on.I got it used so i got new velcro on before jumping it at all.
By the experience i have by MY velcro rig,it should max have 50 jumops before replacing the velcro.
It should be said that it only could pop it when the rig were tigtened(legstraps and so on).I have only had "problems" climbing,when i have hit somthing whith it.I have never had any problems at exit.
I always do gear chek before jumping,to be sure its all okay.

in the interest of POSITIVE discussion


sorry.....not worth talking about.
Let me retract my words and say say sorry.
Sorry, it is not worth discussing.


Later,
Thomas

I don't plan on purchasing a rig for another year or two but I was just wondering if it would be safe to jump a Perigee II with a modified Fury 220 off of a 2000 ft. A? (I plan on purchasing a Fury 220 for skydiving and having it modified for BASE before heading to the Potato). The Asylum website says that the Perigee II is meant primarily for jumps under 1000ft. Is it safe to take this container off a 2000 ft. A if you don't plan on doing any aerials?

How much do you weigh again?

The Fury isn't exactly the most up to date canopy. How many jumps on it? It's a sniveling beast with a slider on it. With a few hundred jumps on the canopy it snivels like mad. In other words, it will take a long time to open. It's fine for skydiving.


Velcro rigs have been used on tall objects but I won't say one way or the other if it's safe because if you flail at speed, and you might, it will peel open.

My opinion, is the perigee II is a good rig for the most part if the velcro is perfect, and you don't flail but the canopy probably isn't.

Hey thanks for the advice. I think I'll still buy a new Fury for my first skydiving rig but I'll try and purchase a BASE specific canopy for my first BASE rig. Do you think a pin rig would be better if I intend on mainly jumping a 2000 ft. antenna? I'd like to take a FJC at the Potato but I think I will make most of my jumps off the big A here in North Texas.

Yes, you're better off with a pin rig. Velcro was the norm many years ago and has been used successfully however it's a risk I personally wouldn't take anymore since there are such better options.

The Fury was a decent 7 cell canopy. It was a copy of the Pegasus but flares were added to the line attachment points to avoid lawsuits. I wouldn't use it for BASE but wouldn't hesitate for skydiving.

I still suggest just getting a decent skydiving rig and jumping it a lot before bothering with BASE. Get a few hundred skydives so you can learn how to deal with canopy deployments and just plain ole flying a parachute. Learn to track really well. If you're jumping large antennas, you will need that skill. Then when you decide you're going to base jump, by a suitable base kit.

Don't waste your money or time on crummy gear. There is enough good equipment available now so finding some is not difficult if you're not impulsive. If buying used equipment is your only option, you can still find good base equipment.

How funny. You revived a really old thread. I would guess there are many newer threads with the same title.

Everything Hookitt said is spot on. PLEASE TAKE THE ADVICE to get a different canopy. A Fury or Raven will probably save your life in the slider-down BASE environment if you have to but FURY or RAVEN with Slider = snivel... snivel... death.. bye bye!!


You may be quite genuine with these thoughts now but what are ya gonna do when someone invites you to a 4-sec sl/up 600' site and all you have is your Fury?? Answer - you are gonna use it.

There's so much cheap used gear out there - in fact the new stuff is priced cheap too. Forget the Fury - buy/borrow/steal a Mojo/Fox/whatever.

Don't rip yourself off like that... DONT DO IT!!!

g.

Definitely. The turnover of jumpers getting into and out of BASE is rapid. There is always cheap, suitable, nearly-new BASE specific gear available.

I really don't see the point in finding gear you can double up between skydiving and BASE. It'll just end up being boring from a plane and riskier from an object.

I'm curious to what the turnover rate may be. and for what reasons. I would say in the 5+ years of BASE for me there is still that pull, that calm complete freedom at the point of no return that makes me want to keep chasing it.