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i have heard that some people are investigating this set up - anyone else have an opinion on it?


thanks

michael

ps) cant get on Blinc so am yet to post it there!

To what end?

To prevent lineovers? Carry a hook knife and use anti-lineover toggles.

To slow openings by inhibiting the slider? Bad idea. If a slider up opening is too harsh get out of BASE and buy a poodle.

To prevent inflation completely? Just don't put the rig on before you jump instead. Or place a gun barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger.

Tailgates are a device for slider off/down jumping (also useful for a McShlonkey).

Just because a thing has a use for one activity does not instantly give merit to other applications. A fly swat gets rid of critters in some cases but try using it to kill a rabbit. If you do try this, please take vid and send it over. That's the rabbit thing, not the tailgate.

Love n hugs,

Skin.

PS my new rig arrives soon. I'm excited. I just wanted you all to know that.

A friend of mine uses a piece of masking tape on the control lines on slider up jumps. Double wrapped with the sticky part on the outside.
Personally I don't use any type of tail gait on my slider up jumps (125+).
Interesting theory but I'm not sold on the idea yet. I'll let him do some more test jumps.

570

Considering slider up jumps? You must be getting fitter dude....

Who do ya think you're kiddin'?

We all know that you have no friends...acquaintances, maybe...but friends? nope...

Is this accurate? <<Double wrapped with the sticky part on the outside.>>

Do a google search on Slider Gate. (vertigo base outfitters use it) If any one finds that they must manually constrict the Control lines to help prevent a line over, this may be a better Idea. I'm not willing to constrict my control lines at this time on a slider up jump.

Hook Knife and Line release Toggles.

I may buy a Poodle soon, but I have my doubts as it's effectiveness toward Line over prevention.

-

Hey were are you going?Be sure your home when i drop by..drop me an mail or PM whith your plans,im sure ill be allrigth whith in 2month

i had always thought that tailgates were for slider off/down packs only - but i have read a couple of posts here and there - and some people seem to be using them / testing them slider up........ i was just curious of peoples opinions on why or why not! i will go with what I have always thought - Not!


Rabbits - thats a no no!! but weasels and other small river bank dwelling mammels - now theres another story - just please make sure you have the wrist muscles and tip tob elbow action before you proceed - try it on a guinea pig first! - make sure its taped!

Be Good !!

Michael

Oh man, I thought we were clear on this subject.
-

Once again I apologize for the direction of the thread towards animals. Chicago dwellers especially.

"You wouldn't let it lie would you? You just wouldn't let it lie" - Vic Reeves.

I apologize to any vegitarian BASE jumpers for the direction of any future thread which you may find offensive. I'm just trying to take some of the heat off the guinea pigs. Not that there was any heat on the guinea pigs. It's just a figure of speech. Honest.

<montypython>A rabbit with big scary teeth like this! Grrrrrrr.<montypython>

How about simply using indirect control of the slider? Is there a reason why controlling only the tailgate lines would be better slider up than simply controlling ALL the lines until line stretch is reached and the slider comes down?

Call me silly, but I worry much more about slider up tension knots than I do slider-up lineovers.

Peace,

D-d0g

you're silly.

Gardner

YO!

And possibly have "slammer" slider down looking openings like you had at KL ddog? What if you got a camera on your head? Those super hard openings will give you wiplash and a sore neck for a few days minimum. You need direct control of the slider to stop the slider form racing down the lines prematurely, and indirect control as a backup for out of sequence deployment. I would suggest testing this in CH when you have ample slider up jumps if I were you ddog.

Prevention is better than cure for a line over... but both prevention and cure is better than just prevention. Does anyone know if WLO type toggles have had a save/cured a line over yet in a real-life situation? When they have a reported save, I will think about buying some... as for the hook knife...you must be a dirty high puller to have effectively have time to use it : )


Istead of using only indirect or direct control
I've been using two wraps with masking tape around my upper control lines just above my slider for about a year now on sub terminal slider up jumps - tested on over 180 jumps so far. Nowadays, when I do terminal jumps with a SMALL HOLE MESH (the tailgate could possibly get caught in the large hole mesh, cause a lock-off configuration where the tailgate is anchored on the C-line AND in the large hole mesh, and possibly cause a slider hangup) slider I use a tailgate - with two wraps of a small black rubber band - to lessen the potential of a line over - tested on only a few jumps so far. The question seems to be..."is this effective given the slider is choking off the opening canopy and even a small separation (when the slider begins to descend the lines) of the upper control lines breaks the tape/opens the tailgate... so is the masking tape/tailgate really helping to prevent a lineover? Video analysis shows that the nose and tail open at approximately the same time - sometimes the nose begins to open first - but the tail never begins to inflate before the nose, therefore it seems to be helping. But, more testing is needed to conclude that it is really effective. It is psychologically effective for me now, and I don't like jumping unless some sort of restriction is put on the upper control lines, so it does have some value.

What are your thoughts/results?

JJ

Psychological fix?

You're kidding right?

JJ - It was your posting on BLINC that made me question why people were using the tailgate on slider up - there seems to be a general feeling that sliders and tailgates never the twain should meet - I am wondering why you see this as a beneficial set up whereas most people will only use a tailgate on only slider down / off jumps.

On my dagger slider i have a tab that a rubber band is attached to and a small bite of my brake lines and put into in holding the slider up and keeping some control of the brake lines stopping them going over the front of the nose - surely this is an effective method without the risks associated with a tailgate being used slider up.

I am not thinking of using a tailgate on slider up - as my thoughts and beliefs are that it is only to be used as a preventative measure on slider off - maybe i will test this on the guinea pigs some time later in the year....................


Thanks

Michael

Adam at CR told me that he stopped putting that bite on his sliders several years ago. He felt that this technique compromised opening heading. I'm pretty sure that Vertigo is the only manufacturer still using this technique. The consensus among the other manufacturers appears to agree with CR.

We did discuss some alternatives (like attaching a tailgate through the bite, then tailgating the lines with that) that might not be so detrimental to opening heading. As far as I know, those ideas never got further than the discussion stage, though.

This is very interesting.

I've been fighting my Ace since Day 1 to get it to open on-heading slider-up. Slider-down it opens just dandy, but slider-ups have been giving me consistent 45deg (+) off-headings.

460 and I have been kicking around theories, such as tail-rolling/folding techniques, but one thing I always do is attach a rubber-band to the left inner C-line and then take a bite of slider mesh to keep it up on the stops.

My last jump was off-heading veering to the left and thinking back I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of them have been in that direction.

So I'm starting to wonder if this might be the real source of the problem. Perhaps by having the slider rubber-banded to one side I'm creating asymmetric tension and inducing a turn in that direction.

Then again I could be all wet.

I think these are two different methods - the slidergate taking a bite of control lines and slider control taking a bite of the slider.

Can I take it from the past few posts there aint many people using guinea p---- oh sorry slidergates??

Thanks

These are two different things, but your point is still valid.

The technique that Mac266 is talking about, and which CR discarded, involves a tab on the trailing edge of the slider. A loop of the control lines is taken, and placed in a band attached to this tab.

Your technique (generally referred to as Direct Control of the slider) involves taking a bight of the slider mesh, and stowing it in a band attached to a line attachment point (usually a center C line). Direct Control is recommended by CR, and is probably used by a majority (but a thin one) of BASE jumpers.

I do know a few jumpers who put stows on both center C attachments, and pull two bights of slider--one to each side. I have generally found that the slider placement of the Ace/BJ makes it difficult to do so (there just isn't enough slider mesh for both bights). You might try this technique.

What kind of delays are you having trouble with? Are these terminal jumps? Maybe we ought to start another thread about slider up heading.

Oh, I wasn't putitng forth indirect control as a substitute for direct slider control, not at all. I believe that direct and indirect slider control can be complimentary.

Rather, I was suggesting that indirect slider control (a bite of all the lines) coluld be a substitute for some sort of tailgate-style mechanism slider-up. Of course, by controlling all the lines rather than just the center tail, the indirect control is hypothetically not as good at encouraging the nose to open prior to the tail and thus to help prevent line-overs.

However, back to direct and indirect control and heading performance. Yes, it is true that at KL I never used direct control on over 30 slider-up jumps (well, I think I used it once when DW "loaned" me his Troll ). Since I wasn't taking longer than 6, I didn't feel the need to take direct control.

{since I didn't take 7.5 from Menara KL I didn't have that problem myself JJ!}

Direct control scares me. More broadly, sliders scare the piss out of me. They are designed (as DW says) to prevent canopies from opening. That is scary. Indirect control, I have a hard time seeing a full-on failure with it. However, at least in my mind's eye, I can see direct control causing a catastrophic opening failure with the slider somehow tangling with the canopy fabric at our around the direct control attachment point.

Yes, I'll use direct control on 8+ second slider-up jumps. However, below that I've just not felt the need for it - at least when jumping Mojos, and given the way I pack for those jumps. I think the openings might look "hard," but I'd compare then to about a 2.8 second slider-down delay. I can handle that without feeling punished, even 30 jumps in 8 days. Heck, I did 7 of those indirect control jumps in Lauterbrunnen last year in 10 hours, three of them coming out of front loops and four of the delays being longer than 7 seconds.

So perhaps I'm just too stoooopid to feel the pain, but indirect control is plenty for me up to 8 seconds or so. I even did 10+ of La Mousse with only indirect control and that wasn't really anywhere near the "bang" from even a 3.5 second slider-down delay.

I don't like snively openings as I firmly believe snivels slider-up make off-headings much more likely - the canopy up there at line stretch, not expanded but flapping in the breeze. Bad! I'd rather a bit harder opening (within reason), and a clean opening than a nice, soft snivel and an off-heading and line twists. The latter is a potential killer for many of the jumps we do nowadays.

So this is my "250 jump wonder" plea for folks to think about the impact of direct control on opening performance. As some partial vindication of my position, consider this: I did about 20 jumps from Petronas with only indrect control this year. I did (by most folks' assessment) the most consistently sloppy packjobs of anyone at the event. Not sloppy in the sense of reckless, but rather in the sense of not taking alot of time to "tidy" then; mostly in the 10 minute range, some faster.

I finished in the upper 40% of the total jumpers in the opening performance category nonetheless. Given my obvious lack of skill, and my less than tidy packing, the one variable that I had on my side that I don't believe other jumpers were doing was that I was using only indirect control. I had no off-headings more than 45 degrees in all of my jumps from Petronas.

Anyway, something to think about. I could be totally wrong on this, but until we get to 10+ second delays I believe that direct control is a potential variable that increases probability of off-headings with little justifiable increase in safety in other areas. I like hard openings; they are much better than no opening at all.

Peace,

D-d0g

  
>{since I didn't take 7.5 from Menara KL I didn't have that problem myself JJ!}

it wasn't 7.5, it was 7.1. Well, it depends where you stop the clock...

>Direct control scares me. More broadly, sliders scare the piss out of me. They are designed (as DW says) to prevent canopies from opening.

They are designed to for "in sequence" canopy deployments. Not to stop a canopy from opening but only to slow the openings down. Who wants a slider down/off type opening at or near terminal? I agree with you Doug regarding the "more prone to offheadings" the longer the slider stays up, but out of sequence deployments and tension knots scare me as well. Therefore, I am trying to limit my chances of ALL possible malfunctions AND be able to safely take it low...cause that's what it's all about....isn't it?

>I don't like snively openings as I firmly believe snivels slider-up make off-headings much more likely - the canopy up there at line stretch, not expanded but flapping in the breeze.

That's why I jump a FLIK!


>So this is my "250 jump wonder" plea for folks to think about the impact of direct control on opening performance.

I thought you did your 202nd the other night???
You guys must have been jumping a lot that night. How many rigs did you have? I guess with the right number of rigs, like say 45 or 46, and a driver...you could get that many jumps off that nice backyard S of yours....

>I did (by most folks' assessment) the most consistently sloppy packjobs of anyone at the event. Not sloppy in the sense of reckless, but rather in the sense of not taking alot of time to "tidy" then; mostly in the 10 minute range, some faster.

A true BASE jumpers pack job...well, one who doesn't care all that much anyway...

cya!

JJ

Spence and I spent two days straight doing Tards from the backyard B

Peace,

D-d0g