Basejumper.com - archive

So I’ve tried nearly every line release toggle and thought I’d post a few thoughts on them. This is completely fact based and has nothing to do with my opinions, although I did not pay full price for my Squirrel ones. I think I may have paid a little under full price on my Blacksheep ones as well because I ordered 2 sets, I can’t remember. I have listed them in alphabetical order to remove all bias. All prices have been converted to USD for ease of reading.


Adrenalin: This is the first line release toggle I have owned (got it with my first rig) and it works well. You can remove the line from the toggle without un-mating any velcro due to the yellow cable used to secure the line, and it is pretty light weight (24g per toggle). The only downside I see is you have to thread the line in from the correct side, or the line won’t release (shown here https://www.facebook.com/...s/10155937123677312/) It is very easy to do it the right way but I have seen it done wrong on quite a fee rigs. It’s a stupid mistake to make but sometimes a simpler design is better as your toggle not releasing when you need it to is pretty shit. They also have a EZ grab handle although when packed for a while the wrong way it sometimes holds a bad shape. They cost $114.34 USD

Good: Light, EZ grab loop, can swap them out without premature wear
Bad: Easy to mis-rig so it wont release if you don't pay attention or use common sense, most expensive price, expensive shipping to US if you aren't in Europe


Apex: I have never owned a pair of these but I have seen them in person on friends rigs and gotten to play around with them for a bit. They do exactly as advertised but the big downside I see is because it uses a pin instead of a yellow cable, you have to un-mate the velcro on the release part every time you want to swap the toggles which will wear it out prematurely and as the life goes on, make it less secure which I don't think is a good thing. They weight 25g so same as Blacksheep, 1g heavier than Adrenalin. This thread (http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2940556#2940556 mentions Apex recommends retiring them at 100 jumps (it sounds like due to the pin bending?) which isn't a factor on any of the other toggles (in fact Adrenalin even mentions the velcro to the riser can be easily replaced as much as you want) and the thread also mentions cases of premature line releases. That thread is a few years old so the design may have been updated to fix that, perhaps Joe or someone from Apex can chime in on the recommended lifespan of the toggles? Joe says the pins no longer bend and they don't ever prematurely release anymore. They cost $95 USD.

Good: EZ grab loop, simple rigging, light
Bad: Wears out the toggle every time you switch them out, potential premature releases (has been fixed), shorter life span (has been fixed)


Badseed: I have never owned or seen a pair in person but from what I've heard they were a copy of the Apex toggles and once Adrenalin came out with their design, they switched to a copy of that with the same ring tab APEX has. After previous negative experiences with Badseed quality, I don't think it's likely I will ever get a set to check out. I imagine they work similar to Adrenalin. They weight 27g per toggle. They cost $80 USD EDIT: Due to an update in their design, it is too tight to swap the toggle out without un-mating the velcro.

Good: EZ grab loop, can swap them out without premature wear
Bad: A heavier copy of Adrenalin's toggle, Just as easy to mis-rig as the Adrenalin toggle EDIT: Wears out the toggle every time you switch them out


Blacksheep: I bought 2 pair of these for my rigs after not wanting to spend the extra money and wait for Adrenalin toggles so I could have line release toggles on both rigs. They have a very simple design that is pretty much impossible to mis-rig (release works same as apex but uses a yellow cable instead of a pin so you can leave the velcro mated when switching the toggles out to not wear out the toggle. They weigh 25g per toggle which is the second lightest weight I have besides Adrenalin. The only downside is they have a fairly small loop and it is not stiffened much. If you pack them up like a reserve toggle they will open into loops for your hands but the loops are still small. They are $75 USD

Good: Light, easy rigging, can swap them out without premature wear
Bad: Small loops are harder to grab fast when needed


Squirrel: I just got my first set of these the other day and have installed them on my primary slider up rig. I really like the simplicity of the rigging (you can't really fuck it up) and the simplicity of the design. I saw a comment on Squirrel's facebook post on them with someone concerned they would be hard to release under tension so I tied a piece of dacron to a hook on my wall, leaned out with my feet on the wall at a little past a 45 degree angle and pulled the cutaway with ease. It was considerable more tension than I have ever felt on my toggles. Also you can pull the release while the toggle is still stowed and it will release the line from the toggle in both the stow and where it connects, leaving the toggle on the riser which is cool as the rest you pull the line release and then pull the toggle (most can be done while continuing to pull the line release). They also have the stiffest stiffener of any of the toggles, same as Squirrel's normal toggles, which I have had the best luck with those keeping their shape though lots of jumps so I expect the same from these. They come out the 28.1g per toggle which is a little heavier than the other 2 I have weighed but before claiming they are the heaviest, I would like to have the weights of the Apex and Badseed toggles. It seems the weight is due to the big stiffener in it so the extra 4 grams may be worth it for easier grabbing. I'll let you decide. They cost $94 USD but are also open source (thx sqrl) so you can make your own for the cost of the material if you choose. And if you make the handle similar to the other lighter options, my bet is these could be the lightest ones out there due to the release design.

Good: Very stiff EZ grab loop, simple design hard to mis-rig, not a copy or knock off of another design, can swap them out without premature wear
Bad: 1-3 grams heavier than the rest


Summery: If you live in Europe, it's probably best to get the Adrenalin ones. They will be the cheapest shipping and they work well as long as you don't mis-rig them (so don't be dumb!). If you are in the US or anywhere else, it would be a tossup between the Badseed and Squirrel ones for practicality EDIT: now that you can't swap the toggle without un-mating the velcro on badseed I am going to have to got to Squirrel for being the best option. I would avoid the Apex ones due to the fact that they wear out a bit every time you switch them and now that I researched them a bit more to try to find a weight, finding out that they are recommended to be replaced after only 100 jump and the premature release issues. The Blacksheep ones are another option but I didn't like the small loops for your hands and lack of stiffeners in the off chance you need to reach them right away. They are the most budget friendly though.

I will be getting another set of the Squirrel toggles for my other lightweight rig because A) I like the new, unique design, B) they are hard to mis-rig C) they have the stiffest EZ grab loops, and D) I like Squirrel and want to support their company (my last point is subjective, I admit it, no need to call me out on it )

If anyone has the weight on the Apex and Badseed toggles, please post them and I will edit this post!

Which ones have you used during a malfunction? Dude.

I pack well and take steps to avoid line overs like tailgates and slider gates so I have never used any in a malfunction as I have never had a lineover.

I have rigged and cut away a Squirrel, Adrenalin, and Blacksheep toggle (uses a spare cutaway cable to use on the latter to avoid wearing the velcro on the real one) but have not cut away and Apex as I didn't want to add more wear to my buddy's since he switched his toggles frequently and they were already getting fuzzy. I assume they cut away just as easy as the rest.

Good review.

One thing which have been noticed about adrenalin base toggles. The 'sleeve' for the yellow cable at the top of the toggle seem to be pretty short. What happens on some rigs, is that, when you stow the brakes, the brake line goes on top the yellow cable (below the "sleeve"). When the canopy opens and applies quite much pressure on the streering lines it makes it hard to unstow the brakes, as the line has a "step up" from the yellow cable on the "sleeve".

Not sure if this is clear. Attached a photo.

When stowing the brake, you may not want to push it all the way up, so the brake line stays on the sleeve.

Good catch! I never noticed that on mine but I think it is worth pointing out and along with it being harder to release your brake, it may cause earlier wear to your brake line.

Badseed seems to have revamped their design at least in the last year or so. Now they're using a tab on the front like Adrenalin, and the loop that gets trapped by the yellow cable is made from tape instead of line.

Even though they use yellow cable to release, everything is so tight you can't really swap them without unmating the velcro.

Bummer! I'll go update my original post I guess, that was the only advantage I found on them. Do you mind posting the weight?

yeah for sure, should be able to get it tomorrow.

As much as I like the Snatch open source, here it is useless and only marketing, with the pictures it's easy to copy.

For the cost in Europe may I say that Squirrel gear is cheaper in France and all EU than in US shipping and taxes included... Unfortunatly the little thing like toggle and other small stuff are not on the EU website.

???

Not sure where you got that price.

They are $90 on site in Twin Falls (no shipping charges).




How long have you been running the Squirrel toggles? I have only had a set for a couple weeks, and I'm interested to see how the spandex holds up. I really need to run them for quite a bit longer to form an educated opinion.

I got it off Adrenalin's site, 102,00 €. That converts to $114.34 USD as of last night. I did not go around searching everywhere looking for the best deal on them for every toggles I posted, just went with the MSRP from the manufacture's site as that was the easiest and seemed pretty fair. I guess I should have dug deeper because as Antione commented, Squirrel gear is apparently cheaper in France and all of EU than in the US. I didn't know that.

As I said in the post, I only just got my Squirrel toggles so I can't personally attest to, back back in January when Squirrel posted them on facebook, Charley commented that he had been jumping them for just over a year as prototypes so maybe he could comment on that? If it does wear, it looks to be an easy replacement.

I'll wait and see how they do for me. :)

Velcro is an easy replacement too, but I still count that necessary maintenance as a strike against the Apex toggles.


I think the price differences get really weird when you combine import duties and VAT. If you can avoid the VAT (buying gear from outside the EU, or shipping it outside the EU) you can save a pretty remarkable amount of money. It's honestly shocking how much tax there is on purchases in the Schengen area. That's also true in the US, but at a lower percentage value. I once had a friend who was an Atair dealer order a canopy from me (back when I was a dealer) even though he lived in Italy (an easy day trip to their factory). It was actually cheaper for him to pay to have the canopy shipped back and forth than to pay the VAT.

Dan,

The thread you linked on WLOs is coming up on a decade old and contains some outdated information (e.g. the design has been modified since, the lifespan figure is inaccurate). I would request that you remove it from your post, please.

1. A single WLO weighs 25 grams, which makes it lighter than Sq, the same as Blacksheep, and 1 g heavier than Adrenalin. But honestly, weight should be at the very bottom of your priority list. The difference between the heaviest and lightest is the equal to a few paperclips.

2. We've experimented with yellow cables instead of pins. We prefer the pin. It releases more consistently and re-stows after being pulled more easily when comparing the prototypes we've built. It also allows for a less complicated (and more direct) release mechanism which we feel is more reliable. We understand the pros/cons of the yellow cable vs. pin. Ultimately the most important feature on a line release toggle isn't weight, or longevity, or color options, or anything except how cleanly, consistently, and reliably it will perform its job when you're in an emergency situation. We feel the pin is the best way to ensure that jumpers can save their own asses if that day ever comes. There are a few ways to skin this cat, and Todd's 30+ years of BASE rigging experience still suggests, to him, that the WLO is the best all-around way to do it.

3. The 100 jump lifespan is very outdated. Please remove it from your post. These toggles have seen in excess of 1000+ jumps. It is true that if you unmate/mate the velcro 1000 times you will see wear, but for the vast majority of jumpers the velcro remains secure for as long as the jumper owns the toggles. We've also started using a lightweight ring at the top of the line release tab to reduce the likelihood that the tabs come unstowed, even on very old and worn velcro.

4. Not mentioned is that the toggles can be rigged in two different ways to improve longevity and safety. When you are jumping slider up, rig the toggles as normal to provide line release functionality in an emergency. When jumping slider off, you can rig the toggles like a normal EZ Grab toggle, and stow the pin above the line, in order to disable the line release function. We believe that jumping slider off without a line release function is safer as it eliminates the potential of accidental release by the jumper.

From my perspective:

Good: Large loops for easy grabs, very simple rigging, multiple rigging options for different jump styles, a proven track record with real-world use.

Here's an old, but valid example:

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=e4ZviIr4bBo&

Bad: Velcro will get tired if you mate/unmate the velcro obsessively.

In the future, please feel free to e-mail me directly at info@apexbase.com and I will be happy to provide this information so it is available to you before your original post. I think you could extend the same courtesy to Brandon at Badseed, as his toggles got a quasi-review without you having ever seen them. I suspect he would be happy to share details with you pre-review as well.

Did you cut them away in flight? Or on the ground?

I rigged up and cut away (in flight) the Apex and Adrenalin toggles several years ago (and several times each), and it was an interesting experience. I settled on the Adrenalin toggles at that point, but I haven't revisited the issue since then. Maybe I'll do it again and add the new Squirrel ones into the mix.

FWIW, it's really hard to comment on Bad Seed gear because they iteration/change process is so fast that I never know what the next piece of it I see will look like. People ask me "what do you think of the Mayhem?" and I have to answer "which Mayhem are we talking about? The four I've owned have all been very different from each other." When the Bad Seed gear is good it's pretty good--but you pretty much have to have the specific piece of gear in hand to inspect, so that you can see which version you're actually dealing with.

Glad to hear. It would be nice if these things were posted on the site and easy for anyone to see. I still see the pin as a downside, especially when you're switching between different toggles every time you switch slider up to slider down if you run the line mod, but we can disagree on how much of a downside that is. Iv'e never seen any issues with the yellow cable so one working "better" than the other doesn't seem like much of a point if they both work as they should. I will go a head and update my post about the outdated info, it was the most current I could find. And I agree about the weight part, but for some people every gram matters. You save enough and it adds up to an ounce, you save enough of those and it adds up to a lb. It seems silly to drill holes in your toothbrush while backpacking but if you cary that mentality on every piece of gear you will have a lighter setup in the end by quite a bit than your friend who bought the lightweight backpack and sleeping pad but skipped out on all the rest and the little mods because they didn't save enough to seem worth it.

I would recommend switching to standard toggles rather than using the WLO's routed to disable a cutaway, or at the very least tape down the tab so you have less wrong shit to grab!

Take this video as a great example (https://vimeo.com/80704110). Maybe he was fucked no matter what he did but it sure didn't help that when he accidentally grabbed the tab it stalled him a bit on getting the actual toggle to start the turn. Hard to say if he woulda smashed either way but I think there would have been some sort of chance if he got the toggle on his first go.

Can you explain more?

I'm having trouble understanding. Maybe a quick phone video?

Is it the extra bulk through the brake setting, making it hard to release? Or something different?

When it come to SQ stuff you have a not well know site to order from if you are living in EU, it is VAT included (20%) and same price as US site which is not VAT included.
To say it in a more simply way SQ created a EU site where they are selling their stuff with a price 20% lower than the US site (they have to give the VAT collected back to EU, it is no going in their pocket).
https://squirrel.ws/eu

I find very funny that a US company is having its US price no tax included 20% higher than the EU price

Haha, I suck at explaing things in written language, even in my mother tongue

Please see the attached photo. It is quite staged because I use Bad Seed toggles, on which I don't have this problem, and also my canopy is in inspection so I cannot provide the actual photo of stowed brakes.

Anyway, image this is a stowed brake. The eye in the steering line goes below the sleeve for the yellow cable. So it'd be in the same place that the spectra line from the photo. Now, after canopy opens the steering line is pulled up by, causing quite much tension. When you open the brake, you pull the toggle down and the sleeve of the toggle is acting as an obstacle, making it surprisingly hard to release.

Hopefully it's more understandable now.

To clarify, it doesn't sound like the pin is your issue. It's the Velcro. The Velcro is only subject to wear with a lot of mating/unmating. For most jumpers, the velcro wear is not an issue with occasional switches for slider configurations.


Well maybe that's because you haven't built a couple dozen iterations of line release toggles, eh? I find that it is very common for jumpers, myself included, to look at a piece of equipment and think they understand how it can easily be made better. But when compared to someone like Todd, we don't know what we don't know. He's built a ton of different versions and found the pin to be the most consistent, most simple, easiest to rig, and (in his opinion) most likely to be successfully used in an emergency. Chances are if you think you've got a better idea, he's already built it, and it's not. It's an experience I've gone through personally a handful of times.

Don't forget what these toggles are for. An emergency. Not an infinite service life, not easy slider switches, they are for helping save your life and limbs in an emergency. That is priority number one in development, and where Todd feels the WLO is (in his opinion) the most reliable. It's been used, in the real world, for years now. We feel that real world track record has value.

And, of course the best toggles for slider down are non-line release toggles. But you know what's still better than line release toggles? WLOs which have the line release disabled. So I would still consider that an advantage over running any other line release toggle slider down.


Joe did not say those things. I'm sure under enough load you could get a pin to bend, and with the velcro in terrible enough shape and a hard enough opening you could get the tabs to unstow. I never even commented on a full accidental release, as I've never heard of one with properly rigged toggles. Please do not put words into my mouth.

Honestly Dan, I would prefer if you just left us out of your reviews entirely. I would rather be out of the conversation then have to correct the record. Your motives are clear, and now at least your conflict of interest is public. Just do your reviews, make your disclosures, and I can stay out of these threads entirely. It would be better for both of us.

*Edited to fix my quote boxes.

 

No, this is an official EU website, taxe included, with a full taxe invoice.
Actually if you are a professional you can probably buy it no taxes, and it would be 20% less than US price :D
When you buy directly in US they don't declare the real value (like a lot of other company).

Yes. Now I see. Thank you!

The line is hanging up on the bottom edge of the tape that forms the channel (for the yellow cable) on the toggle.

I'm going to mess around and see if I can replicate the issue.

Do any of these require bartacked lines or can they be tied like normal toggles?

you are aware that they were NOT designed by squirrel but by thomas hirsch (user 84n4n4 in the forum, author of http://www.watchthybridle.com. he started working on this alternative design couple of years ago and made the design open source and squirrel decided to produce and sell them. i have been (test)jumping (and still jump) an earlier version and the current version made by Hirschi 2 years ago.

I've worn it out, and I know a couple other people who have. But that's people running them for 500+ jumps, at any rate.

Have you guys looked at creating a system without that wear point?

I honestly don't think the pin bending is a huge issue. If the toggle is correctly set, the pin pulls down into the grommet, and there's a substantial backstopping. I have a couple sets that I've bent the pin on (doing demonstrations in class) but I've never seen it happen in real-world use.

Joe, if you're wondering I give a disclaimer along the lines of "this toggle is pretty blown out because I rig it poorly for this demo in every class, so don't expect it to happen this easily in the real world." It's still not the toggle I tend to recommend though-because of the long term wear/maintenance issue with the velcro.

One thing I did like about the Squirrel toggle that I think could easily be adapted into the Apex WLO is that the ring is removable. You can easily install a split ring (or whatever else you want) to make the tab more quickly accessible, but you don't have to (if weight is a concern) and you can remove it to try out different stuff or for specific jumps. The WLO's on my unpacked rig actually have the ring cut off, which was done to reduce weight pulling on the tab at opening (not overall pack weight).

That's pretty interesting.

I had heard they were designed by Simon, but obviously the word on the street is wrong.

Hirschi has done an awful lot of good stuff for the sport, and generally doesn't get enough credit (to be fair, I don't get the feeling he's doing it for recognition).

In the end, it doesn't matter to the evaluation of the gear who the designer was, but it might matter to some of the verbiage of the review.

i absolutely agree. he is a proper gear nerd, builds his own harness/container and does it all out of pure interest and the desire to make better things for himself.

to be clear, he gave full consent on squirrel making it a product. squirrel even mentions it on their product page "Totally unique design developed with Thomas Hirsch"

im happy to jump two pairs of those toggles handmade in austria by the man himself.

We have, but haven't found anything that we liked. Most of the changes wound up impacting the design in other ways that we didn't like. Not to say that it's impossible, but what we've played with hasn't resulted in anything Todd likes more than the current system.


I never wonder, or worry, about you or SRBA. The advantage of your non-affiliation with any brand is, in my view, your ability to be fully objective and free of conflicts of interest. You've always been fair in my experience to all of the players in this industry. Thank you for that.


The current version of the ring is lightweight plastic, so if weight is a concern it is very easily snipped off. =)

I have 2 pairs of WLO, each with well over 100 jumps and no significant wear issues. Maybe mating-unmating the velcro once every 5-10 jumps or so. Never any problems with the pin bending either. I went with WLOs over yellow-cord-versions because I have seen kinked yellow cord in other gear (skydiving), and decided I'd rather have a straight pin and maintain velcro, than yellow cord without velcro.

potayto potahto

Disclaimer: I paid full price, nobody sponsors me because i suck, i do not design or manufacture anything, I own gear from at least 4-5 different companies, I have no relationships with anyone because human interaction is scary, and i jump like a pussy.

I've run both the Adrenalin and Apex versions with a knot system, and tested release (in flight) on them that way. The concern I've heard is that the knot can hang up in the keeper ring, but that didn't happen on my (small sample--5 each toggle) tests.

I have tested the Squirrel toggles on the ground with a knot system, and those appear to work as well, but I have not flight tested them.

Exactly. Hirshy got to see his first production pair at my house at the end of last year. He said they were slightly different than his original design, but the overall concept is the same. I agree, a proper fellow nerd ;)

Tom, as far as wear on the elastic, I’ve been using a proto set for just over 2 years, almost identical to the production and haven’t really noticed any wear in probably 300ish jumps. I find them the easiest to quickly rig of the cutaway toggles I’ve tried, and I encouraged anyone I jumped with for the last few years that hadn’t seen them to cut them away on landing to show how easy/intuitive they are.

I dont really know how to reply to people that complain about squirrel and where they make their gear. Does this happen in the paragliding/speedflying forums to ozone? Should squirrel undercut every manufacturer by 30% and destroy the industry?

Current Badseed toggles are 27g a piece.

Excuse me, sir. Could you please not interrupt a perfectly off-topiced discussion with facts?

I have removed the (non-technical) discussion of manufacturing locations from this thread and moved it to General.

You can find it here: http://www.basejumper.com/...rum.cgi?post=2998425

Please continue discussion of manufacturing locations, labeling, and "buy local" politics in that thread, and leave this one for discussion of technical issues related to the actual use of the gear.

Thanks!

Has anyone seen a set of green squirrel line release toggles out there? Long story, but I need to find a set that’s already been sold to someone.

just stumbled across this thread. thanks for the flowers :-)

i posted a detailed build manual with autocad files, pictures, etc on the blog:
http://www.watchthybridle.com/...e-release-toggles-2/

this is the version flooo is talking about with following differences to the squirrel version:
- no additional stiffener, foldere 1" square weave is used for this
- gripper ends meet at the bottom, making the velcro easy to replace and fully accessible all the way with a normal sewing machine.
- instead of spandex, 1" binding tape tunnel for the nose

Hi Hirschi,

I've been running your toggles design (Squirrel's version) this summer, and I noticed that the color of the loop (white, same as on most risers) has caused confusion for some students in setting the brakes. Because there are two very similar white loops in close proximity, I've seen a couple new packers mis-stow their toggles (for slider down).

Have you tried changing the color of the loop on the toggle to something that is easier to quickly distinguish from the loop on the riser?

Nice work--so far I'm liking them a lot. :)

Thank you for your work !