Basejumper.com - archive

The squeaky wheels get the grease.

Let's brainstorm

I'm sure people have tried to get paragliding and parasailing legalized with vague enough terms for BASE to be included too.

“Hey NPS, we really want parachutes allowed in your parks”. NPS - “will that make us more money?” Us - “no”. End of discussion.

Propose a paid permit system. There's their income.

And then again, Her Majesty takes the freedoms and liberties from the peasants and sells them back to them.

Land of the free.

Whoever.told you that is your enemy.

Go to yosemite any time during the summer. The place is so packed with tourists that you can barley drive around. Unless they charged 10k a permit, there’s no reason for them to change anything. Technically, it’s a permitable activity, they just don’t grant the permits in most parks (see bridge day as an exception). They will also point out the death during the last protest jump. The nice thing is if you’re a decent base jumper, you can get away with jumping in just about any national park you want.

Until the day I get busted I'm going to say that I really don't mind it. I might even go as far to say I kind of like that it's illegal. I enjoy the solitude of being on top without anybody else there.

This is a fair point, and one that is often overlooked.

I think that legalizing BASE in national parks in the USA would result in an almost instant circus, and a subsequent total ban.

If we want legal access to national parks, we first need to come up with a way to avoid that happening. Yosemite couldn't sustain LB's incident rate for three months, let alone permanently.

2017 was a pretty decent year in Ebola Valley fatality wise

Fatalities went down globally...

Legal Yosemite would probably also decrease the number of incidents in the Swiss valley.

To be honest I don’t think it’s a fair point at all. It’s actually more hypocritical. Let’s say you do everything “right” jumping in parks have a tension knot and land in a tree. Then are you really going to say with a $3,000 bill and equipment replacement fees added onto your hospitals that you were happy it’s illegal? If you can then congrats you’re not a hypocrite. But I doubt that’s the case.

Maybe there’s a way to prevent the circus atmosphere. I mean it’s 2017 we are launching private enterprises into space maybe we could all come up with some ideas and productive conversation to integrate recreational activities in national parks instead of crossing our arms across and saying nope it just ain’t gonna happen.

I think you just said exactly the same thing that I said (see the bolded portion of my post, and the relevant portion of yours).

Rather than just agitating for access, there needs to be a plan on how that access would work (and what the accident mitigation strategy is).

Just "making a scene" without a plan isn't going to be very effective.

Yes, but it would probably increase the number of incidents in Yosemite.

Which of those statistics is important to the the US National Park Service?

I honestly don't think the NPS cares what the incident rate is in other places. They care about the incident rate in the lands they administer.

Agitating for legal access without some kind of plan is counterproductive. It just makes BASE jumpers generally look like a bunch of disorganized whiners. Presenting a reasonable plan that addresses the concerns of the NPS (incidents, impact on other park visitors, traffic, costs, etc.) is going to be much more productive.

Instead of "making a scene" we should be "drafting a plan".

Post was directed at guy who said I like it’s illegal until I have to suffer the consequences.

Not sure if the making a scene in quotes is in response to me or not but I can assure you I’ve never advocated for just making a scene. My position has always been slow, thorough and responsibly introduced park impact procedures.

Has a religious exemption ever been discussed?
Maybe a first amendment permit organized event, control the group as members of the church.

It's been discussed many times.

I'm not sure that it's every been taken any further than that.

Using loopholes to fit through loopholes won’t get us anywhere.

The NPS wants to see something organized. It doesn’t have to be a governing body with rules and regulations necessary but a communal effort to seriously understand the risks and involvement of other people affected by our activity. Such as rescue plans to get us out from trees and cliff strikes, etc. Having a recordable decrease in fatalities is a good first step of evidence we can begin to show that we are better understanding the modes of death in our sport.

The problem is the inherent character of people who want to chase a life of flying from cliffs. We so very easily sell ourselves out in our hedonistic tendencies of living for the now all the time. I include myself in this unfortunate state of mind we sometimes struggle with balance. Things that will help is a general respect for operating margins and a greater appreciation for the little things.

Again, all this is going to have to come from a large group of motivated selfless people that need to get together without our own pleasure being at the forefront of every decision.

Until then let’s just keep chasing that pleasure hoping we aren’t the ones who are going to have to pay the price. Because we are effectively gambling and the house always wins unless you walk away first.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/924601

Not a loophole but a way to organize, like you mentioned.

Or a risk retention group for insurance, like the ushpa.

Fuckin good post.

Are you surmising, or do you have some knowledge base that you can share?


I don't think any of this matters to them...

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Yes lots of knowledge base of many meetings with superintendents. Happy to share as always with those who care.

That’s okay you don’t think but my personal experience discussing the topic at hand with NPS figures contradicts your feeling of doubt. So think what you will.

I've also met with Superintendents on this issue.

My take is that some kind of outfitter/guiding license set up is most likely to be the initial entry point, and that general access would be years (maybe decades) behind that, if ever.

The people I talked to were very interested in having someone (preferably someone with a financial stake) be on the hook for problems. And that is going to be problematic because (a) no one wants to be responsible for the (let's face it, inevitable) misbehavior of other jumpers, and (b) whoever took the license and agreed to be responsible would probably be viewed as a massive sell out by a large number of other BASE jumpers. Even someone as well liked as Mario got a lot of static from other jumpers when he tried to put together a license to operate in areas that _already had general access_.

Boom! Mitch is like the grand ninja wizard dude. He has done way more than pretty much any base jumper has, to get progress with the NPS.

Interesting... we'll most definitely need to chat then.

Oh, no, by all means... my doubts would be greatly reduced if those presented statements were coming from meetings with and straight from the ass's mouth(s).

I would however ask you: What good would structure or a solid communal effort be (like what we already see in places like moab), if as a matter of fact, they do not believe that it is an appropriate activity? Even if we had no fatalities what so ever, that is quite a hurdle.

Have you spoken to the new Superintendent yet/before?
http://www.fresnobee.com/...rticle196403664.html

I'll give him "an exemption" until further notice.
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Boom!

Yosemite is not the place to start.

Initial access will be much easier in lower traffic parks, preferably ones that already have general BASE activity in nearby areas, and hopefully in which those other areas are other federal government units.

The furthest I've seen the process get is in the New River (where discussions with the superintendent were focused on creating smaller "Bridge Day-like" events multiple times per year, expanding the number of permits granted each year from one to four), and parks in Utah (where Moab already acts as something of an example of how jumpers can get along with administration and other users on public lands). In both cases, there was already some sort of model to follow and build on.

Can't talk to people...?

Knowing his opinion would be helpful, would it not... especially if you're talking to all these other people.


That was going to be my next question for Mitch.

I'm not too (directly) familiar with Zion, for example. How would that compare to Yosemite on all relevant matters: trees, people, foot traffic in LZ's or outs, other hazards, difficulty in rescues, and so on.


Yeeeeah.

And speaking of which, where are we with that?
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Totally Agree. And as long as it's illegal, I'll never be able to jump with my dad in any parks.


Actually, I think I have idea about that...

Have been googling, but can't find an answer: but if yes, AND if I am wrong about "appropriate activity", it would certainly be possible.

And why is cannabis on this list? WTF? %SpecialPlaces %#
https://www.nps.gov/...yourvisit/safety.htm
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Tom I’ve never heard any talk of commercial guiding or monetary gain by organizing anything. ie hang gliding off Glacier, rock climbing, canyoneering etc. which are all mostly unregulated activities. yes there will likely be permits required to keep numbers per day at an acceptable user rate like there is with half dome cables or the Narrows in Zion, but I’ve never once considered commercial guiding outfits and BASE jumping to be considered on the same table nor heard any superintendent propose that.

Yosemite is definitely a bad place to set a precedent but hey if someone can start a dialogue would never hurt.

There’s already a process in place at all national parks via department of the interior and localized park planning process for assessment of overall impact of an activity in a national park.

That’s the most frustrating thing is that there’s a plethora of experience out there we can build on but as individuals we cannot come up with anything. Robin Heid gave me a lot of info about what you guys did with the ABP and helped show what works and doesn’t. I’m not a smart man, Jenny but I know what love is. Just kidding but really I’m a pretty average human being and just by taking from the foundation others used before, a lot of time spent writing different proposals, and some creative cold calling it was easy for me to at least get a serious discussion with some tangible things to present to the NpS.

Any idea on a range? That could get very frustrating...


Good! I'd object.


If given approval; where would you desire to start?


So do you think the opinions of superintendents are changing? Because I go back to "appropriate activity" issues. Is it no longer, "we despise this", and simply, "fine, how do we make it work?"

One topic discussed over a decade ago was a need for infiltration (new blood), or that issue would never change.
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That was from a long set of discussions I had with Don Striker when he was superintendent of the New River. He told me he couldn't sell unregulated access to his bosses in DC. They already had a system in place for whitewater rafting companies, and he wanted to model a system for BASE access on that.

This was separate from setting up "mini bridge day" events, which would have been modeled on the main Bridge Day event, but run for longer (we were talking about 3 days) and run primarily from the catwalk (so the bridge didn't have to be shut down--that was a request from the state highway people).

Anyway, that's all ancient history at this point. I wasn't willing to throw in the (six figure) amount of money necessary to make everything go, because there was no guarantee that there wouldn't be a change in any of the necessary permissions (we needed permission from the county, state, local guiding associations, and the NPS). All it would have taken was a change in one key person (many of whom were political appointees) and the whole system would have fallen apart.

That's really because of history. Our internal history. It's all well and good to say "let's all get to work" but when you've already spent years working on something, and then had it all fall apart because of politics between different jumpers, you're unlikely to want to throw more time and energy into it.

The most precious commodity we have in this issue is the personal time and energy of the individuals who are willing to work on it. You only have so much you can give, and eventually you run out of energy.

That's also why I wouldn't bother working on Yosemite access. With a limited amount of time and energy to work on it, you should focus on the places with the highest possibility of success, and the places that will act as gateways to bring access to other places.

I don't think I've ever spoken to an NPS official who said "we despise this" or even gave me that impression. Heck, even Dan Horner (who had a terrible reputation with jumpers, given that he was the lead law enforcement guy busting us in Yosemite at that point) was pretty reasonable about the whole thing when I talked to him.

We were at "fine, how do we make it work" back in 2008 at the New River. We were actually well past that, to "ok, this is how we make it work."

We just weren't willing to pull the trigger because of the financial risks involved, and the fact that one change in one political appointee (out of half a dozen who needed to give us their blessing) would have killed the whole thing (and left us with a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of valueless land).

Making lots of posts on the internet about how people need to "get busy" is all well and good if you want to feel like you're "doing something". But there are people who have actually done all the legwork in the past, realistically evaluated costs and benefits, and chosen not to move forward.

Mitch is currently doing a lot of leg work. I hope he can make that all work out. But having already been down that road, I'm not really interested in spending a bunch of my time (of which I have _a lot_ less than I did ten or fifteen years ago) chasing this issue. Not after having been involved with four other efforts, three of which were basically sabotaged by jumpers out of personal jealousy, and one of which I chose to discontinue after considering the real costs and benefits to my family.

Good info, perspectives, and discussion.

Trump & zinke are businessmen.. I think now is a better time than any. Probably not through some group like cliff jumpers association or norcal paraalpinism but rather with lawyers & lobbyist. All we need is like a few hundred thousand.

I have no recollection of any static from other jumpers due to his working with the BLM to officially recognize BASE jumping on public lands as a legitimately licensed and insured commercial activity. The only drama I recall is from Tree and Abbie of “Tandem BASE” claiming he was stealing their “idea” of tandem BASE jumping as a business model. Fast forward a few years and BLM management maps of Moab now have officially designated and maintained BASE Jumping areas (Tombstone and Mineral Bottom). I feel like that’s a huge achievement in the path to more access which was a result of Mario’s footwork at the local and the federal level.

Perhaps we're thinking of the same thing. I remember them saying quite a lot of things, and on at least one occasion one of those things was that he was "selling out" by working with land managers on a permit system.

Regardless, it's an area to tread in carefully.

Some really good post in this thread!

If there’s one thing I’m confident in, it’s that the govt likes organizational structure. Something like the SBK or SBA would go a long way in showing some internal discipline amongst the jumping community.... which is something that would hopefully provide a positive perception of said community’s ability to “play” nice. I’d imagine finding ways to make the whole thing profitable for big brother would be even more beneficial. I think, to Tom’s point, in order to compensate people for their time & efforts, the whole movement would have to end up being modeled something like the USPA. I don’t have a dog in this fight, as I’m not a B.A.S.E. jumper... but I wouldn’t be opposed to that kind of governance when I’m ready.

In this age of social media, it’s never been easier to reach out and open a dialogue with the right people. I’m very interested in seeing others opinions on this topic.

We could even call ourselves SBO, for "States BASE Organization"

Which is Absurd.


So Tom, there is quite a bit to break down and speak to between your three posts; starting here. I think it is fair to say that the majority of your statements (throughout the thread) are in relation to New River; a complicated topic, and a task which I wouldn't want to undertake publicly without looking back at emails and PMs with the various people who provided me info over the years. Where Mitch and I are both busy and can't even do that currently, between ourselves.

However, you did lead right into my next point:

As Mitch stated above: "My position has always been slow, thorough and responsibly introduced park impact procedures." -- I think that is very reasonable, if, you are dealing with reasonable people. So, lets say that he/we are successful in getting a permit (meaning: some degree of consistent/regular access, but not "uncontrolled") to a low key place like those we have spoken about in recent PMs. Then another, and maybe even a third...

What's to stop an NPS Director from stepping in and shutting it all down; "as we prove ourselves"? -- Nothing!

But, but, why oh why, would they do such a thing...? Because "it's not an appropriate activity."

I am encouraged to hear from Mitch that there is new blood and opinions are changing, but it's not happening fast enough, and outside of additional info, it's also not happening with the parties I would deem necessary.


Mitch already spoke somewhat to the points I wanted to make, here.

Along with this, lets look at the ass's full statements:


"The Park's Values" -- That's Cute.

Well, Chip is gone (he got spider kicked back home to Mt Rainier), and maybe you haven't chatted with Gediman, Tom... because it sure sounds to me like he, and He Who Authorizes, what he says, despises BASE jumping. Where I hate to break it to everyone, but he's not just "a spokesman"; "Scott Gediman is the assistant superintendent for public & legislative affairs at Yosemite National Park. He manages all of the park’s media relations, legislative affairs, special events and dignitary visits. He has been in this position since 1996 and is a 23-year veteran of the National Park Service (NPS)." [~30 Years - Since 1988] -- He's old fart blood, who also saw Jan Davis go in.


But to compliment your statements, Tom... just like Bill Wendt (Chief Ranger) said in Sunshine Superman, (without quoting his full statement, ending with): "You don't have to dislike someone to, take away their freedom."

We do however have an interesting situation currently. Because the Deputy Director, and acting Director until recently, is now the Yosemite Superintendent; who grew up in the park according to the article I posted above.

So ... What does Mr. Reynolds think?

Because if you can't convince him, you're not going to convince anyone (of means), and I don't have time to wait another 20 years; or wait for "slow, thorough and responsible progression" with individuals who I don't believe have any desire to see our dreams come to fruition.

Happy to be wrong... and we've got plenty of time.


That is exactly, why we should be working on Yosemite; at least in tandem.
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I'm not american, but this statment is reality. This is how most basejumpers are (me included sometimes) and I do not think it's about to change.
I hope for you guys that you will one day get access again to this park, but I'm sure it will not be in the next years.

The good thing in Europe is that the circus guys are staying always in the same places and the good places are still quiet most of the time. That is what you are missing, some place for the "yeaaaaaah/Wooooooooo/FuckYeaaaaah/Woooooo" guys so they would not come to the places where you need to respect other's tranquility.

I wish you the best in your quest !

I haven't even been on the other side of the puddle so obviously Idk what rules you have and what not but wouldn't places like Kjerags base association SBK be a good tool and role model?

You can point to them for support and statistics.
I think some sort of a base club is the only way to get it legal and everyone who jumps without a permit from the club are doing it illegal.
I mean it would be much more beneficial for them to atleast get some control over it instead of as right now when they can't control it at all, people are still going to jump.

Happy Birthday, G-Dub!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ZdY9BLbgQ


No, Thank You.

The SBK works because they can exercise effective control over 95% of the jumps done there, because they have the only full time shuttle service running jumpers up the hill (and the boat back to Lysebotn). They can enforce their rules because they have an enforcement mechanism--if you don't like their rules you have to arrange your own transport, which is both difficult and costly.

Local enforcement around Arco is greatly helped by local interface with the shuttle drivers, too. But that's been a bit of a rocky road, and takes work from both sides.

Yosemite would be a lot more like LB, because the transport services are generally available (well, more like not available) to everyone, and can't be controlled by a self-regulation effort.

It's analogous to how the USPA exercises control--they control the aircraft (aside from a few notable exceptions, like Dausneyland) and therefore they can impose rules which jumpers must follow to use the aircraft. Without a mechanism of control over jumpers getting to the exit point, you can't create a real SBK style effort--there will always be rebels who don't want to follow the rules (for good or bad--I'd argue that it's both, actually, rebellion is close to the heart of BASE, and likely will be for the foreseeable future).

And now it's super easy to fly back from Smellveggen, with all these big ass wingsuits. It wasn't so easy with my OG Phantom; I'm no Yuri! Now, really, all you need is a buddy and two cars, just like Brento.

Speaking of which, how much time do we have left for Kjerag...? Ya know, before the landing areas succumb to global warming, I mean climate change. We'll have to build a drone ship like Musky Boy's.
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Fair enough... I appreciate some of the ideas being exchanged. I’ve read a ton on this site, but never thought to search this topic.

lol.

It's quite the frustrating topic, isn't it...?

To speak directly to your points, and not just show why I love Adam Carolla:

As far as compensation/effort goes, if it is indeed solely Mitch and myself actively pursuing the best means to this end: I can't speak for him, but my only desired compensation (for whatever it takes) will be jumping off of El Cap with my father, without any fear of the outrageous nonsense that so many others have had to deal with.

Therefore, USPA style structure is not necessary in that regard, and personally not desired, in all others.

For obtaining access, groups are fine. I was brand new, with my recent two Bridge Day jumps and my gear on order, when that ABP thread was started. I was very happy to see that, knew very little on the topic, and though I didn't know all of the names, I did know some of them. I'm much older now, but I'm still young blood... and the years have shown me that Nick is spot on: "Not knocking it, Brothers, just keeping it all straight for when we are all gone . . . ! "

Do we really need yet another group to get this done...? Or just the proper ideas? Because politics and sabotage aside: They were, and we still are, dealing with a hostile entity; at the top(s), of their, structure.


And I think this is a very important post:

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Egos, Lack of experience, Permitting, Money, more Egos, etc....

I recently read this article on Mt. Everest and noticed, on a few levels, similar to BASE jumping, the struggles the community there deals with. Maybe there can be some insights found within to help us avoid certain mistakes, not only in our desire to gain access but also in the progress of BASE as a whole.

https://www.salon.com/...ighest-climb/?page=3


A few quotes from the article...

"Anyone can try to climb Mt. Everest. That’s the beauty of the goal — and one of the problems"

"Less experienced climbers, and in particular climbers who take to the mountain as a means to prove something, are not as equipped to make adequate life and death decisions. Not only are they less able to recognize signs of their own fatigue or illness, they have paid $30,000 to $70,000 and given up two months of their lives for their one chance at the top. This may be the greatest paradox of opening Everest to amateur climbers — in the desire to get to the top, less experienced people will take more risks. "

"But what are the consequences of these extreme adventures?
As the highest peak in the world, the impact of the ever-increasing number of tourists attempting to ascend Mount Everest gives insight into the challenges of this type of tourism. What used to be the domain of a handful of professional climbers has now been commodified and made accessible to a much bigger group of people.

The Everest conga line raises the question – in democratizing the mountain, has the industry birthed a type of neocolonial tourism in which any experience can be purchased, regardless of the consequences?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUdcY3oWGuw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_wtiBOaex4

Envisage... a "Rant on the NPS."

I need to contact Adam and Dr. Drew! Just replacing everything he says with the NPS, isn't quite good enough... but the permit comment in the last clip is so perfect.
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Well... that is how most, BASE jumpers people, are ... with the same Gediman page saying they even have murders in Yosemite NP: "Over the years, we’ve dealt with fires, floods, rockslides, murders and multiple fatalities. We always need to be ready to speak for the park, and a large incident can result in conducting more than 100 interviews in a day!"

Oh, but we can't have those damn BASE jumpers running around! An activity that I saw (whuffo) foreigners and locals alike in Norway absolutely loving to watch (especially laying near the edge). Where here, people's screen addicted children would probably bitch less and pay attention more if they could see such a thing in person.

The current prohibition is outrageous; their tranquility / park values statements are "cute", to say the least.

There will always be problematic people, everywhere... and within everything; it's human nature.

That's why we have the Constitution. Boom!

But from our PMs, I can say that Mitch would disagree that that is most BASE jumpers. Having stated that NPS officials are realizing that they can't paint the community with such a broad adrenaline junkie brush anymore.
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I'd like to have a conversation about exactly what a "circus" is deemed to be.

There are two clearly separate issues here (as far as his second statement goes):

If Yosemite magically opened up for us "tomorrow", the large crowds will already be there. Would more people travel to the park, or visit more often, with an ability to observe BASE jumping from El Cap and more...? Sure! (which is as much "revenue" as I see them obtaining from BASE; and rightfully so). Also... temporary/waning?

Where overall (and given the above), it is an absurd aspect of and "reasoning" for prohibition.

So, that is a BS statement by Gediman.

Things like littering (at an exit point, or anywhere else) are already criminal offenses... but lets talk about the things that are not criminal, but highly problematic. -- I honestly haven't spent much of my time on this aspect of the access issue, but since the start of this thread, I've indeed come up with some ideas regarding it; especially in relation to my own experiences with problematic people.


Well, I've still yet to find an answer, but am willing to bet Mitch could find out if he doesn't already know. And since then, I've had yet another idea based on our brief Zion PMs; which if successful would tear holes in all of the NPS arguments for prohibition.

Mitch also said in his open letter, that the issue has been studied and a solution had been developed. Our ideas may even overlap, so I will likely be sharing what I've come up with, with Mitch first, before doing so here.

But in the mean time: Ya never know what ideas will come to mind, or someone else's mind, from outside input.

So, lets chat.
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From my experience in Lauterbrunnen, most of tourist are not like BASEjumpers, hikers are not yelling all the time after opening until they start to pack (sometimes before opening), neither paragliders, even chinese people are yelling and shouting less than BASEjumpers.

We should start a fundraiser to give free skydives to park rangers at Skydive Yosemite

If they land out, will they get busted for illegal aerial delivery?

Meh...

And nigelslee beat ya to it:

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2882040#2882040

Oh man, id forgotten about Uhuck

Very interesting timing...

I'm guessing Logan Paul did, not, obtain a permit for drone operation in Yosemite National Park...?

It's clearly his footage: for those that don't desire to watch any more than 10 seconds of self-incrimination.

I had already watched the three related videos, before realizing early Saturday morning that there were also news stories about it. I was obviously already thinking about posting; given, that he had not only "done" and pointed out most of the issues we as BASE jumpers need to speak to, but he may very well (through his antics) assist in answering my main question. While at the least, solidifying some of my thoughts on the noise issue.

(News stories vary: this appears to be the original. No meaningful updates, and the latest stories are all celeb sites. He may have received two citations, as well as been asked to leave due to noise complaints. -- First video shows ranger interaction, but was clearly let go; "due to birthday." Nothing else is shown.)

So what would the rangers next step have been, if he didn't wish to leave? (Two [unrelated] citations, or not.)


So...

Thanks, Logan!

Now, go pass your A license written re-test. -- "I'm a failure."

First Huck - Huck It - Huck'n It -- lol. sigh ... Jesus Christ!
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So... you're saying, the ranger should have immediately tased Logan Paul?

Oh Boy, that's [now] an Interesting statement...

Not a thing has changed.

Still wanna have that conversation.

Or shall I try a different approach instead...?


Tom... I think your statement is horseshit.

Gediman's collective statements, are also horseshit.

As you very well know, I've been in this sport & on this forum long enough to remember when jumping from the rail in your hometown was "against the rules." -- IIRC ... the primary reason for the rule, was suicide related.

Here's a Radix related thread all about it (with you posting first): http://www.basejumper.com/...post=1172048#1172048

Yet it's common & not a problem now... within a ton of stupid ass conduct / decisions made from that bridge too.


Despite his shortcomings, RobinH's collective statements about that "window 25 years ago" are not only material, but make this statement of yours horseshit, as well.

And what about the massive influx of whuffos traveling to your said legal object after lying to acquire gear, then just sayin' fuck it (or for the feeble-minded among us; send it), simply giving it a go & ending up on the list?

Oh wait... it's never happened. So, exactly why is this going to happen in Yosemite, let alone any National Park?

Given how many people die in OUR National Parks from "Appropriate Use" in accordance with "The Park's Values", I'm thinking we should ban all visitors for a year or two, only allow climbers, para(s) / hanger(s), & BASE jumpers ... and let's see whose numbers are lower (weighted calculations of course).

The general population seems more like the circus to me... whom will rapidly lose interest in the flare of BASE; much like twin. Meaning... appreciated, but with far less grandeur than at inception.


I have not been to LBV since November 2006, BUT:

Antoine,

Are you a Sissy?

Hold On ... Let's make sure we have no language issues.

Antoine,

Are you a weak, soft, effeminate & cowardly man who lacks testicular & / or spinal fortitude?

Do you lack the ability / courage to tell your direct friends & other jumpers around you... to STFU?

Because personally, I've told a lot of my friends to STGDFU. -- I've got a lot of other stories too dealing with douche bags; & I have witnesses. Some are dead... but others are not. So, all of my stories can still be proven.

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"A Circus" ... Sounds like a lot of BS excuses to me.

If the NPS desired jumping, we would already have been given a chance to prove ourselves.

No one is ever going to "get a permit" ... as dorkitup & dudeman17 just "made my point" for me.

But in the off chance someone actually does, like Mitchpee, I expect the circumstances will be extraordinary, & we will be right back to my argument above, about what will stop top brass from shutting it all down.

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Therapy for Schizophrenia
ECT Therapy
If you have schizophrenia, it's important to get treatment as quickly as possible. Medication is key, along with other types of care, such as psychotherapy, which is a kind of talk therapy, and social skills training.

But you have to be sure you take your medication. And that’s not always easy. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that affects how a person acts, thinks, and feels. It can keep you from seeing the world in a normal way, which means you may not want to take your medication.

Schizophrenia causes many symptoms, including:

Delusions (believing things that aren’t true)
Hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that aren’t there)
Jumbled or confused thinking and speaking
Odd and random movements like strange posture
Doctors aren’t sure exactly what causes schizophrenia. There is no cure. So to treat it, a doctor will prescribe medications that can ease symptoms and prevent them from coming back.

Antipsychotics: Medications That Tame Psychosis
The medications doctors prescribe most often for schizophrenia are called antipsychotics. They ease symptoms such as delusions and hallucinations.

These drugs work on chemicals in the brain such as dopamine and serotonin. You can get them during an episode to help relieve psychosis quickly, and also take them long term to prevent symptoms.


You'll most likely have to take schizophrenia medication your entire life, even if your symptoms get better. You can take antipsychotics as a liquid, a pill, or as an injection.

If you think you might have trouble remembering to take medicine every day, you can try a shot you get from your doctor once or twice a month called a long-acting injectable antipsychotic medication (LAI). It works just as well as taking a daily pill.

Doctors will choose which medication is best by looking at the following:


How well it works on your symptoms
How much it will cost
Side effects
How easily you can get it
How often you have to take it
Your doctor may adjust your dosage over time and might change the medication you take, depending on how you respond. In some cases, your doctor will prescribe more than one kind of antipsychotic drug.

Antipsychotics work best on "positive" symptoms like hallucinations and delusions. They may be less effective on "negative" symptoms like withdrawal and lack of emotion.


Types of Antipsychotic Medications
There are two groups of antipsychotics. Doctors call the older group of medications “first-generation,” “typical,” or “conventional” antipsychotics. Some common ones are:

Chlorpromazine (Thorazine)
Fluphenazine (Prolixin)
Haloperidol (Haldol)
Perphenazine (Trilafon)
Thioridazine (Mellaril)
Thiothixene (Navane)
Trifluoperazine (Stelazine)
The newer ones are called “second-generation” or “atypical” antipsychotics. Examples of these medicines include:

Aripiprazole (Abilify)
Aripiprazole lauroxil (Aristada)
Asenapine (Saphris)
Brexpiprazole (Rexulti)
Cariprazine (Vraylar)
Clozapine (Clozaril)
Iloperidone (Fanapt)
Lumateperonee (Caplyta)
Lurasidone (Latuda)
Olanzapine (Zyprexa)
Olanzapine/samidorphan (Lybalvi)
Paliperidone (Invega Sustenna)
Paliperidone palmitate (Invega Trinza)
Quetiapine (Seroquel)
Risperidone (Risperdal)
Ziprasidone (Geodon)
Note: Clozapine is the only FDA-approved medication for treating schizophrenia that is resistant to other treatments.

Side Effects of Antipsychotics
While the first-generation, older meds usually cost less, they can have different side effects than the newer antipsychotics. Some can cause higher levels of the hormone prolactin. This can affect sex drive, mood, menstrual cycles, and growth of breast tissue in both men and women.

One of the common side effects of many of the newer antipsychotics is weight gain. You may also have trouble keeping your blood sugar and cholesterol levels under control.

One of the more serious side effects from long-term use of both the older and newer medications is a movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia. It makes your facial, tongue, and neck muscles move uncontrollably and can be permanent.


While both older and newer antipsychotics can cause tardive dyskinesia, researchers believe that the odds are higher with the older antipsychotics.

Antipsychotics come with other side effects as well. You could have any of the following:

Weight gain
Sexual problems
Drowsiness
Dizziness
Restlessness
Dry mouth
Constipation
Nausea
Blurred vision
Low blood pressure
Seizures
Low white blood cell count
Be sure you see your doctor regularly while taking antipsychotic medication. And talk to your doctor if you have any concerns about side effects.

Add-on Treatments
Along with antipsychotic drugs, your doctor may prescribe another type of medication. Depending on your symptoms, they could give you or a mood stabilizer or antidepressant.

We need more research about how effective these treatments are for schizophrenia, but many doctors try them.

They might prescribe these extra drugs for what's known as treatment-resistant schizophrenia. This means antipsychotics don't address all your symptoms.


Mood Stabilizers
Mood stabilizers balance your moods. This means you're less affected by depression, anxiety, or excitement.

Mood stabilizers include:

Lamotrigine (Lamictal)
Lithium
Carbamazepine (Tegretol)
Valproic acid (Depakote)
Their side effects include:

Itching and rashes
Thirst and frequent peeing
Trembling hands
Nausea
Slurred speech
Fast or uneven heartbeat
Muscle control problems
Changes in your eyesight
Seizures
Hallucinations
Swelling in your eyes, face, mouth, throat, hands, feet, or lower legs
If your doctor gives you lithium, they'll do regular blood tests and watch for kidney and thyroid problems it can cause.

Antidepressants
Many people who have schizophrenia also have symptoms of depression. Doctors can treat these symptoms with antidepressants, which affect brain chemicals that are linked to emotions.

The most frequently prescribed types of antidepressants are called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRIs. They include:


Citalopram (Celexa)
Fluoxetine (Prozac)
Paroxetine (Paxil, Pexeva)
Sertraline (Zoloft)
Escitalopram (Lexapro)
Some of the more common side effects of antidepressants are:

Weight gain
Nausea and vomiting
Tiredness
Diarrhea
Sex problems
Medication and Support
Schizophrenia can make it hard to stick to a medication plan. You'll need a strong support system.

Learn as much as you can about schizophrenia and encourage family members to do the same. Allow your loved ones to be part of the decision-making process with your doctor. Surrounding yourself with people who care about your well-being is also key.

When you start to take your medication, you may feel better right away. But it may take up to 4 to 6 weeks before symptoms like hallucinations and delusions get better.

Be sure to keep taking it long enough for your doctor to know if it’s working. Sometimes it can take several tries to find out which medication works best.

Finishing up within this thread; the one that got me to start posting:

May I just say how amusing I find it, that you chose this thread to post your first copy / paste nonsense regarding schizophrenia. Where right above it, is a thread containing not only my point against Tom Aiello's statement (which is horseshit), but also, contains Tom's post about spamming threads; in a "Jimmy Halliday" Radix thread. -- Which then led to BASE 570 & his Two Constitutions.

I find all that very amusing...

...which is furthermore, why your second copy / paste post, "Schizophrenia Overview" was deleted.