Basejumper.com - archive

I hope you check every single seam on your new rig and parachute. You might want to thank me later.

This is pretty serious folks, and needs adressing!

I assume this is related to the following FB thread:

https://m.facebook.com/...9368&ref=m_notif

How about a synopsis for those who have not been indoctrinated into the facebook cult.

New rig, jumper made a test-packjob, pulled the bridle and seam let go, leaving the pin in the closing-loop.

If jumper didnt check, we'd have the first fatality due to gear-failure in decades.

I couldn't put a number on how many times I've heard of a performance designs chute having a defect, as well as other manufacturers, large or small companies, it's bound to happen alot with a large company that produces that many canopies, however when it comes to containers, and othe gear, this is completely unacceptable, and every canopy, container, wingsuit, pc ect, that's being manufactured in those countries especially, should go through a second inspection by someone reputable who's job is just that, and it should be done with profound oversight in which the company headquarters are located.Anything less is disturbing to say the least, not only because of the price we pay, but because our lives are at stake.

You're paying American prices and getting a product manufactured in Vietnam. More quality control and less marketing.

Well this should be an interesting spin.

We'll get a statement by Matt soon blaming everyone else but themselves and the problem will be gone in the very same moment.

While this may be an unpopular opinion, I'd encourage people to think a little more critically and skeptically, rather than simply accepting the original FB poster's pics and words at face value. While it may well be a manufacturer defect, jumping to premature conclusions without seeing the bridle firsthand seems slightly rash to me.

I'm not into the brand war that's been raging for ages, but if you see the photos others have posted of their defective gear and keep in mind the incident with the Stronglite failure, it's no stretch to assume that something is wrong. I personally would never jump gear that is made in a factory half way across the world from their HQ that is in a developing country, especially when the premium is in line with established, in house manufacturers. And that's not only my opinion.

"But children in Vietnam need jobs too!"

#MVGA

Are we talking false news, or fake news?

Anyone?

Seems like people are very critical and sceptical - of a broken bridle! That's black death delivered straight from the manufacturer. Fucking hell.

I love me some Squirrel bashing as much as the next guy, but the people saying this is a guaranteed fatality are wrong. It'd tear the flaps on opening but with routing out the middle (as shown in the manual) the canopy slides right out. Try it and see.

Still, WTF guys.

 

No, I didn't say that. But no one else has corrected the people making false statements about this being a guaranteed fatality (an Apex employee, what does that say about his knowledge of gear?) or that this would have been the first gear fatality in "decades" (hint: Look at #171) or suggesting that buying an actual American-made rig is a safer choice (Badseed? Hahahaha!).

Assuming they take appropriate actions to ensure this never happens again, I would trust them more than a manufacturer that is less transparent and hasn't had such a public manufacturing issue & PR disaster.

Most importantly - was his order received on time? #MakeVietnamGreatAgain

.....

Unacceptable.

I route through the middle without having read their manual. I'm poor, I swear by 2nd hand gear by trusted friends that care about their gear. Yet.. I'd get really pissy if my closing pin got torn off!

So has everyone receiveied their email by squirrel yet, saying "check your bridles!"?

I would think that not only would this be standard practice with new gear, but with used gear and regularly with current gear as well.

Anybody else have a problem with how they executed their attachment point?

We encourage all jumpers to come tour the Apex shop. You can meet all of our employees, see all of our raw materials, and watch gear being handmade by skilled employees right here in Southern CA.

All manufacturers make errors. We're human. For a list of Apex errors feel free to view our service bulletins, here:

https://apexbase.com/pages/documentation/

If there's anything else we can do to improve transparency I am open to suggestions, honestly. We feel that it's one of our strongest competitive advantages and we're always open to feedback.

So, looking at the two failure photos vs. Squirrels emailed photo; it looks like the "it should look like this" from Squirrel is using a 1/2 type IV on the pin attachment while the failure photos look more like a type III (binding tape) weave pattern?

It looks like type 5 in both photos to me

It's hard to say they look different from the pics provided. The failed pin attachment does look to be made of some type of Herringbone weave not Square weave as you noted but it is tough to say definitively from the pic. However you can clearly see that it is not Ribbon weave.

Edit: All 3 materials can be used safely for pin attachments.

Honestly, I think Todd should find somebody with a little more knowledge and experience to head up this new online presence you are pushing.

Haha, point taken.

I'm not a rigger, and I don't claim to be. I appreciate your honesty and hope to grow into your expectations.

Not possible. But working for Todd you should be able to pick up a thing or two

Not really. Pretty much any mil spec tape is going to be at least a couple hundred lbs of break strength. Squirrel says their's is tested to 400lbs. If your pin is locked that hard, youve got bigger issues. Most bridles are built pretty similarly. Maybe a bar tack that is longer, or a different webbing, but functionally the same.

If its really as simple as a missed bartack/fold, then id assume squirrel will implement an additional level or two of quality control.

That man is very impressive in a lot of ways. I'm absorbing as much as I can, everyday.

I'll let him know that you think he's rad and I'm a poor proxy for him on the internet.

I absolutely agree that it's probably not a materials issue (assuming milspec or equivalent), even 3/8" type III is rated at 200#.

That only leaves a design, or a manufacturing issue. Design wise, I personally wouldn't do it that way, bit, I'm not doing it.

If it is manufacturing, that's a pretty catastrophic process failure, and in this case, the failure mode is impact.

Lol Mr knowledge right there.. he knows it all. Just ask.

Curious what you would change. Almost identical to asylum's design with a shorter bar tack. I've seen vertical bar tacks used, but that loads a single stitch theoretically as opposed to the whole bar tack. Either way, if you catch the webbing, should be plenty strong.

First and foremost, it's not an inherently poor design at all. Almost any way this is done is massive overkill for the application. A couple of things that I don't care for on the Squirrel design are; One, the buried cut end. You will have a bit more variability in manufacture, and a more difficult job on inspection. Two, placing bar tacks at the very edge of the cut ends. Over time and use it will tend to loosen the sewn joint and possibly lead to fiber pull out.

Purely my personal preference, which may or may not be based on any real world logic. I like the older Apex way. Simple to manufacture, easy to inspect, redundant thread joint. And yes, massive overkill on something that should realistically see zero force.

Apex used to use three standard 42 stitch bar tacks on 1" type IV, pinched to accommodate the pin. Now they use two bar tacks the same way same as Asylum (who used to use "vertical" bar tacks at some point).

(I was going to add some photos but they exceed size limits and I'm on my phone)

just because i had these handy for comparison.

an older Apex, Asylum and Morpheus bridle.


i don't really have an opinion either way, except that i think bridles are one of the cheapest yet important components of the deployment system. no reason to NOT overbuild them to bulletproof status.

Mr. Moderator,

''Sell'' your position on issues a little less.

No enjoy,

Luka

Moderators are allowed to have their own opinions and positions.

In fact, it would be impossible to find someone who had no opinions about a topic to moderate a discussion on that topic, because they wouldn't care enough to follow it.

Moderators are not expected to be "neutral" on issues. They are expected to recognize their own biases and restrain their use of moderation actions (not their posts, but their use of the extra buttons you don't see on your forum view) on issues where they may have some bias.

Is that Morpheus bridle the "fold over" type, where the bridle itself is used to create the pin attachment? Can you take a photo of it from the other side?

It occurs to me that even if the stitches fail, that style will still keep the pin attached to the bridle. It's also not as susceptible to the problem of misplaced stitches (which can potentially miss part of the attachment piece in the other construction methods I've seen).

The problem I see with that "fold over on to itself" methodology, is that it will tend to apply much more force to the stitches in a "peel" direction as opposed to a "sheer" direction.

And we know that causes failures as well.

Would that mean that it needs more frequent inspection (because you could inspect the bottom stitch, see that it was peeling, and then replace/repair before the top stitch was ever loaded)?



For sure.

It's likely to be a less catastrophic failure mode, though.

I would have no problems with a system like that for "normal" base operations. Like I said before, there is really no (not much) expected force at that point. (although, your pin attachment should never be the weak link in the system)

I'm playing around and prototyping some static line only bridles. Static line jumps bring much greater additional forces in to play. Everything is a compromise. The goal is to ensure the failure mode is not fatal.

I have never understood why people switched to using only 2 bar tacks. How much time and thread is saved by removing a single bar tack. I prefer the extra redundancy of 3.

I don't think it is really an argument of peel vs shear loading. For me the concern is that you add significantly more load to the stitch in the "folded bridle" method because all load from the PC to the canopy all the way until line stretch, and even after that, has to pass through that bartack. With the more standard attachment method the loading passes the length of the continuous bridle and the pin attachment bar tack is only really loaded during pin extraction. Obviously 2 very different amounts of load.

Direct from Todd:

Apex switched from 3 down to 2 bartacks because 3 was just overkill. He had never seen a single example of the first bartack (closest to the pin) starting to fail, and believes that one bartack is more than sufficient but still wants that second one for redundancy.

The third was just too much, and also had a tendency to create a stiff "block" in the bridle. He decided that two bartacks was the best combination of safety/redundancy without being too "blocky."

Hope that helps!

*Edited to add that none of the above applies if the bartacks are applied improperly.

Yes.

Slider down jump, low, head high exit - are you so sure the canopy would slide out? I'm not

I have a crux. When I saw this incident I put a spare pin in the top loop, and then pulled on the bridle. I could NOT get the canopy to come out of the container, except when pulling almost straight down toward the BOC, and even then required a surprisingly high amount of force. It's possible that the loop would have broken from the force of the PC. But, based on my testing at least, I am pretty sure this would have been fatal.

it's not actually the folded method, i should have put up a better picture. i don't own the rig anymore, but here are a few other shots i'd taken.

...I asked what he thought was wrong with the design of the bridle. What am I selling? I've actually never even jumped a squirrel bridle.

I think his response was to this statement:


Which feels a bit lax considering that they just shipped out a (most likely) fatality rig. And that this is one in a long line of QC issues that have been coming out of Vietnam.

We all have our biases, and I'm obviously no exception. So please don't consider this a personal attack on anyone in the Squirrel circle, it's not. It's just the truth.

Oh dont get me wrong, I think thats is absolutely terrifying, and something that should not happen ever. Its not defensible, and im sure squirrel is pretty not stoked that it happened as well. Its quality control 100%. If I was a manufacturer, and something like this happened, I would 100% make sure it never happened again.

When I say "simple", I mean its not a design flaw, or a new idea gone wrong. I dont think any company is making a bridle with a design that doesnt work, and it seems that squirrel has capably produced functional bridles in the past. The problem is a simple one to fix, dont miss a bartack, and if you do, someone had better catch it down the line.

Dont let a lack of all caps make it seem like I dont think this is pretty critically important. Im sorry for any perceived laxity in my outrage.

Scary... I couldn't imagine that one day that king of issue could arrives... crazy!

On what the photos show, I think that it is a bad mounting that occured and that the seam didn't take the pin webbing..? In that kind of mounting, one part is "blind".

The bridle is the first chain link of safety. How could we take the other part of that equipment if the pin can leave and just prove that no serious QC is done?

I think that it is important to have in mind that equipment is not a fashion but for saving our life each time. Forget marketing sirens and bla bla bla.

A good lesson to remind us that checking his own equipment regulary is more than necessary... confindency is the risk even if we can't see all, doubt must always prevail. Call your preferit rigger.

Take care.

Photos: 2 of my "Adrenalin Base" bridles and theirs bartacks.

Have they released any sort of Service Bulletin or Advisory yet?

I got a KN/Outlaw from them 2-3 years ago and received an email about it just a couple of hrs after it first came to light on FB. I presume they have contacted their entire database of customers.

Laters

Julian

 

I believe they are notifying the dealers.

I'm no longer an active gear dealer, but I did receive an email from them addressed to a customer I'd sold squirrel gear to in the past, and I forwarded that email to that customer.

 

It may also depend on what email address was put on the order form when the order was placed.

In general, squirrel uses automated systems that send emails out to the addresses used when the order was placed. So, if your dealer used your email that's where the email will go, but if he put his own email in there, he will get the email.

Honestly, I have no idea how they are sending the email on this issue, but my guess would be that it's going to everyone who has ordered any kind of container from them at any point.

 

 

The service bulletin has been posted here.

I assume Joe Putrino our newest authority on EVERYTHING BASE was still in high school when this SB dropped:
https://apexbase.com/...Bulletin_LS-7-12.pdf
Joe Putrino and his little internet buddies pretend that their employer has never had an issue with anything. That SB was released in 2012 ONE YEAR after it was brought to their attention that cascaded 400lb Dacron might not be such a good idea on BASE canopies. So a year?

This isn’t about Joe and his boss this is about the industry. For that Squirrel seems to be dealing with this mistake fast and obviously this is a big one. they emailed every customer hours after they heard about it and The SB was out hours after they saw the gear.

But the internet gives us little kids like Joe Putrino to tell us what DOING THE RIGHT THING is.

Joe should ask his daddy if he has ever had a defective bridle returned to him? Or a assymetric pilot chute? Or parachute? I sent him aPC that tried to kill me about 10 years ago and from what i heard not much has changed. Let us know what your daddy says. Thanks. and anyone who thinks a southern california minimum wage mexican sews better than a chinese is an idiot and there is plenty of evidence about that.
Joe thinks everyone here is as gullible as he is.

No company has a perfect record. Every big BASE manufacturer and skydive manufacturer has made more than one mistake. This industry is run from glass houses. Fools and children will throw stones.

Grow up check your shit.

 

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you replied so fast. Its incredible that BASE today has a company that has a paid full time internet trash talker. A PR guy. Who spends all day on the internet instead of jumping or doing practically anything that could make the sport better. Your full time job is to make our sport worse by crapping on the scene. Sad.

4. DOING THE RIGHT THING? Seriously who the f*ck are you to comment or judge. Your feeble suggestion is that somehow maybe they werent going to. They did the right thing 360 days faster than your daddy did when you were 27. You know who your daddy is don't make me ask you who your daddy is.. i will ask you

5. Are you backtracking from your racist facebook comments? Just because I’m old doesn’t mean I don’t have facebook.

And to your nice lady : She has been sewing the same exact BASE canopy for 'over 20 years" with zero innovation except for confusing name changes .. so I would think that by now she could make the left side of each parachute the same as the right side

Understanding there was a "merger" between Asylum and Squirrel, how did that effect the production of Asylum products? The Crux and Next Level instruction are the only collaborations I know of. Are there more? If I buy a Toxic or a Perigee Pro, is it still being made in Auburn?

Yes . Production of asylum is still in auburn.

I was wondering the same thing

I think Squirrel react almost as good as possible.

Just the service buletin pinned on their FB and on the most visited FB pages is missing, to be sure to get the maximum of the people who are using a Squirrel container because a lot are 2nd or 3rd hand and you cannot let the previous owner be responsible of catching the new one.