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I've seen this on FB and I would love to hear comments and doubt from the community:

https://drive.google.com/...Wms/view?usp=sharing

First of all i really appreciate the use of the open source pattern which give this innovation directly to the community (this mean that is responsibility of everyone of us to improve and test this design).

Than i think that, in this sport, there exists no "panacea" and every solution has a drawback.

I would like to hear comments from wingsuit flyers about what could go wrong or why they don't use it.

I would also like to know from manufacturers why they don't add this as an option to their wingsuits.

I am not a wingsuit flyer, but it has anyone tested pitching at low airspeed?

In the event of a bad exit, would a jumper potentially need to make an emergency pull immediately? Would this make it harder or easier to do that?

Also not a wingsuit flyer;

Seems to me, that in an aborted launch scenario or dead air pitch, you could release and then get some sort of pilot chute launch by "flapping your wings" and shake the PC out to the point where it would be able to catch some air.

Not ideal, but then, in that type of scenario nothing is.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I have no problem with the system as a concept, and I think its awesome that someone is working on it, but I dont know if its truly an upgrade in safety, and certainly not in simplicity.

Im always for simplicity in base jumping. I very recently had the chance to look at the latest version, and its super interesting, but is a big like a 7 piece hammer to me. When I look at it, I have to ask if its more likely to kill me, or more likely to keep me from killing myself compared to what i currently use (longer BOC container with an external handle pilot chute). I think currently that answer might be no.

If wingsuit continue to be more rigid, bigger, and harder to access a BOC, which is quite likely are, then we totally might need something exactly like this. I just prefer to not jump a suit that im not confident i can access the BOC.

I agree here too. I really admire the developers of the wingtip pouch and I think it looks awesome. However, I do believe that if overnight every wingsuiter switched to this, it would only be a matter of time until someone found a way to kill themselves with it and we would all start talking about returning to the BOC.

I've seen some other really interesting ideas on this site including:
- having a small lightweight round canopy packed into the top of the container as a 'reserve'.
- having the rig closed partly by a secondary cutaway cable going to a handle on the left side that can open the container

But it's unlikely these ideas will catch on while jumpers are flocking to lightweight gear. And on top of that, you'd need to have made your failed attempt to pull with enough height and time to go for the secondary system.

 

I can answer to that question as I saw a guy fuck up his exit and went in a head down spiral, then pitched at 4-5 and had a fast opening. I still think that he would be dead if he did not have the WTP

Let's try to keep this forum to technical discussions, please.

Thanks!

Do you have any knowledge of poli's incident with this system (not the incident hat killed him). I had just heardhe had to make some kind of crazy barrel roll maneuver to deploy and had a very short canopy ride. Not sure if this is the current model being used, but I'd be interested as to what went wrong and how to prevent it in the future as this type of system is bound to get more attention and use if there continues to be no pull incidents.

Alex had a pocket with an improper shape that wasn't letting the PC pop out of it freely. See attached illustration. The correct shape is a funnel-like shape where the opening is the biggest section. A pocket built with vertical or orverhanging side walls will easily lock the PC inside of it. He came by some time after his incident asking about what I thought of his system - which I fixed it by changing the inside shape to prevent this specific issue.

The correct shape usually takes a bit more work and gives less inside volume, but this is why the PC is ejected when you open it and cannot get stuck inside the pocket.

The first WTP prototype had a bottom that was a flat piece of spandex, and a top closing flap made of a flat piece of fabric. Essentially, when the pocket was open, the configuration was exactly the same as if you were laying down a packed PC over an end cell of a standard wingsuit (it wouldn't be -inside- the wing but free to slide in any direction). On modern wingsuits made with many cells, the end cell is not big enough for a PC to fit in - so the pocket has to be made over a few cells which makes a proper implementation of a WTP a little more complicated.

Thanks for the quick and informative reply. I really do think the system is super interesting, but I do worry about the complexity for the average joe jumper who is more likely to be a dumbass than a rigger or engineer (I got asked to help a jumper who didn't know how to put a canopy on risers the other day and had 100+ BASE jumps).

Any idea how many jumpers are current using the system?

I assume you've looked at the pocket shape in the .pdf file linked in the first post and it is good?

Only Joel might have a meaningful idea as he's likely the only rigger who has made many of these WTP mod for other jumpers. My guess is that the order of magnitude is somewhere around 5 random home made version, 25 WTP built by Joel, and 1000 jumps made with the system.


I believe that a user manual is unfortunately not idiotproof enough even with patterns, pictures & explanation when it's used without common sense... So to answer your question I'd say that Joel (author of the pdf) knows quite well what he's doing and has done extensive tests. I've seen several of his WTPs and am really not worried about anyone playing with his creations. But building one requires a decent understanding of the general base gear mechanics and some creativity to figure out what could possibly go wrong.

I had this system on my last Apache wingsuit. Joël had made on it the last version (2015) of the WTP. But when he gave it to me I have stopped BASE jumping for 2 years, so I never used it (and skydiving with in France is forbidden). Now I've change my wingsuit to come back safely. Joël made a lot of positive tests with my Apache from plane. A friend Jean B. have used the WTP for 2 years on his Venom Power without problems.

What I can say is that system is very simple to use and it is easy to prepare the PC into the pocket too. The move for opening with hand (wrist) is natural and quick. I've made some tests to know the force and it was around 2,5 kg. The fingers stick (around the wing stick) is bloked by a magnet so it can't move accidentaly.

The litlle "default" is the shape of the long bridle magnet on the arm wing. It is sewn horizontaly (perpendicular to the air flow). I don't know if it change the aerodynamic of the wing, knowing that le most lift is close to the leading edge? The force to pull out the bridle from the long magnet (closed by a little magnet) is between 2 and 3 kg depending how you put the bridle on or after the little magnet (see photos).

It is possible to remove with zipper the wing long magnet and to secure easly the pocket with a jonc, and jump BOC.

The WTP is a very inovative system made in the idea behind to make wingsuit flying and pull safer in emergency too. Of course has it said it is not an "panacea" because in an accident there is often a human mistake, but if it can save life is it the best point to remenber.

I think that manufacturers should work on that kind of system, to follow the evolution of our sport and flying machines.

Take care.

Jérôme

Not a wingsuiter myself but i have a question.

Is there any chance you could release this without meaning to, lets say during a turn or a dive? If the gripper is also the release system and you do a turn and also turn or twist your wrist or something?

The shape of the stick handle is well done, very "ergonomic" at the thumb, so you can grip only the wingsuit stick and not the WTP handle (see photos as example). So there is no issue to pull accidentally, but a pilot which have used it in flight could give you a better answer.

On the other hand, the WTP handle stick is blocked by a magnet and need at least 2,5kg of traction to unlock it.

I just think that the only "scary" situation is if the fingers slide on the wingsuit stick (with gloves for example or bad gripping at the start), in that case perhaps you can have a untimely opening...? I thinght that Joël have tried that kind of situation in his numerous tests.

Perhaps it's just that my old school nature makes me allergic to complexity, but is there a way to simplify this system? It looks like it has _a lot_ of moving parts and potential to create unforeseen consequences.