Basejumper.com - archive

Now that I've put a few jumps on the new Aura3, I thought I'd throw some feedback out there and hopefully whoever else is jumping one can add to it!

To start, I'm coming from an Aura, never jumped an Aura2, so I'm only comparing it to the original Aura.

The start:

I found the start arc to be fairly similar in terms of when I crossed the 45 degree line, but slightly shorter with the Aura3 over the Aura. My best starts in good conditions were in the 550 foot range, my average in normal conditions or with 90 degree turns were 650-700 feet, and with tailwinds and cold air, 800-850 feet, no surprises there, the conditions effect the start more than anything else.

The big thing I noticed was the power and glide I came out of my start with in the Aura3 over the Aura. My shallowest, shortest starts in the Aura were coming out around 1.7-2.1, but the Aura3 was coming out with 2.2-2.5. When I would take it steeper in the Aura and have a longer but faster start (700-750 feet), I was coming out with a 2.2-2.5. With the Aura3 on steeper starts it was getting 2.7-3.2, which I would say is a huge improvement!

The flight:

I don't have much to say on the glide, as I've only done one jump where I exited and flew max performance to the LZ before pitching, but it was a two way with an Aura2, and we exited at the same time, had a similar start, and pitched at the same height. Our glide was matched but our speed wasn't even close. I pitched 5 seconds before him and ~100' further than he flew. Maybe once I skydive the suit more I'll unlock more of the glide.

In terms of steep flight, the Aura3 is levels above the Aura. With the Aura, taking it steep with little to no dihedral took a fair bit of effort and you had to be very conscious of the point of back deflection, where it liked to "whomp" you or throw you unstable if you hadn't trained for it and knew the exact point where it would occur. The Aura3 feels at home going steep with no dihedral at all. On the few skydives I did with it, I took it from max glide immediately into aggressive dives with no issues like I had with the Aura. The Aura3 wants to go steep with little effort and is way more stable at those steep angles.

The arm sweep is steeper in the Aura3, which took a jump or two to get used to, but after getting over that the suit felt just as natural to fly as my Aura. I laid my Aura3 over an Aura2 that was built to similar dimensions, and if you swept the arms steeper on the Aura2 to match the arm sweep of the Aura3, the grippers would line up perfectly and the wing profile would match. So it seems like the arm wing is shaped to the position of the Aura2 in aggressive flight, without the extra flap of fabric and wing distortion you get when you sweep your arms back in the Aura2. If that doesn't make sense, I'll try to find someone with an Aura2 and recreate that and take a picture this time.

The deployment

I found the Aura3 more stable at the end of a big flare than the Aura (not that the Aura wasn't stable, the Aura3 is just more stable). It seems to have more pressure in the arm wings, although that could just be that the air is harder to push out when collapsing the wings because of the new inlet, but either way it didn't seem any harder to reach back for the PC. After deploying, I was still able to reach the toggles without touching a single zipper, just like with the Aura. I am running no foam at all in the Aura3, maybe I'll try the thing black foam at some point and repost back on toggle access with that.

Review

All in all, The Aura3 is starting slightly faster and shallower than the Aura with more power and glide, it has tons more speed then the Aura 2 (my friend flying the Aura 2 on that jump has more jumps in that suit alone than I have total and is heavier than me and he is always faster than me when we are in the same suit), is more stable at steeper angles of flight, and still keeps the same ease of deployment and access to risers and toggles.

Below I have attached two pictures of my starts in the Aura3 and my starts in the Aura. The crazy 423' start in the Aura was in crazy thermals with a nice updraft headwind, and I think it was having issues connecting with satellites as the data got funny further down the flight. I haven't had nearly as good of conditions yet jumping the Aura3 and I've gotten with the Aura, so the good Aura3 starts are in similar conditions the the decent Aura starts.

Let me know if there's anything else you want to know about the suit! I'll post back once I get a bunch more jumps on it in more varied conditions

Thanks for the review -
A few questions , in skydiving the original aura you are able to contact the point of back deflection while diving steep ? I was never able to do this, as it would only happen in BASE. I would fly from best glide to close to head down and never any back deflection.
Were you able to BASE the A3 steep or only skydive it ? In BASE while steep, did you have to stretch the suit lengthwise to avoid the back deflection ?

Yes.


I haven't taken it very steep in BASE in a straight line, only steep carving turns (down slabs that are ~1:1) but I've taken it steep in a straight line skydiving.

I haven't noticed a difference in the way the suit reacts while skydiving vs BASE on the Aura or the Aura3 (or any suit for that matter). Are you jumping a FlySite? When you're going max glide in the sky, is it the same speed as when you're going max glide with BASE? I've noticed a lot of people (including me if I don't concisely think about it) fly slower in BASE when trying to fly max glide. Maybe because you're looking at the rock going past you or seeing a feature you want to fly above and trying to extend your glide to reach it. Then when you dive it steep, it takes longer to build up to the speed you're used to skydiving at that angle, but you're still flying your suit at the steep angle with the same body position as in the sky, just slower and closer to your stall speed. Therefore your suit reacts differently.

I fly my suits fast in skydiving and BASE, the same speed, so it reacts the same in both.

A couple of things to consider regarding the difference in speed. The air is denser at lower altitudes, so you may notice a small difference in speeds in BASE vs skydiving as a result (depending on what object you are jumping). Also skydiving rigs tend to move your centre of mass closer to your head which may have an effect on your angle of attack. I notice, when jumping with a rope for instance, that changes in mass distribution can have a big effect on the way my suit will fly.

Also curious, are your starts all from the same exit? Do you know what the altitude is?

All the exits I've been jumping 7000-8500' ASL with the LZ's around 4000' ASL. So totally in line with what I'd experience on a skydive considering my home DZ is at around 60' ASL.

I haven't noticed a huge difference between sky rigs and BASE rigs in terms of weigh distribution. I've never jumped a rope down, but I can imagine the huge weight difference between your legs of nothing to a full climbing rope would have some effect. I've jumped some slings, ascenders, clinging harness, a bit of water and some snacks, and some layers down in the nutsack. It didn't feel that weird or different in flight although it wasn't a lot of weight, but moving around on exit and exiting felt a bit awkward in my legs because of the bulk.

The jumps have been spread out between 9 exit points, all in the same valley.

Sorry to detract from the review, but Trenwah brought up such a good point here that i think often gets overlooked and that's the difference between your skydive rig and BASE rig and how they affect the suits flying characteristics.
A few seasons ago a couple of us were trying to figure out that whole "point of back deflection " thing cause none of us had ever experienced it in skydiving . We were jumping 22 lb skydive rigs and then throwing on an ultralight 10 lb for BASE. It also carries over to muscle memory for your best glide , carried over from skydiving to BASE with a 0 airspeed start you're going to be hovering close to stall from the get go. Knowing your speeds and suit for each sport is the key.

Just curious-- has anyone, just for fun, actually calculated their center of gravity with different rigs on? I don't think it would be that hard to do, in theory.

The Aura 3 is definitely the best suit I've ever flown in BASE environment. Super happy with the start and glide. For me at 5'9 145 pounds in a lighter frame I think the slightly shorter tail does a very good job at balancing out the weight distribution of shorter guys than the A1.

Post flare I was worried the A3 would be starved of air but it really seems to handle the post flare well and still stable at pull time.

Really stoked to see what this suit has to offer.

How are you flaring/pulling ?

Interesting question. Just got my Aura 3 and I only have a few skydives on it and would like to get as many opinions as possible. It is a fast powerful suit in my opinion, but also jumper friendly. But as I am about to transition to the BASE environment and after having some mixed results at pull time skydiving I would like to hear from people who have ideas about the most reliable deployment techniques?
Awesome suit, though, I just have to bring myself up to speed on it.
Be safe out there this season,
Regards, B.

If I'm coming out of a steep line, I'll level it off and at the end pop back up a bit, reach back with both hands just before the apex of my flare, return to normal flight for a half second, then bring my arm in and areach up for my risers to control my heading as it starts to stand me up. When I reach for the PC, I release the gripper, rotate my palm upward, reach over the wing to the PC, then throw it hard. I do everything symmetrical.

If I'm not coming out of a steep line, I'll level off my flight and deploy the same way minus the flare.

I tried pitching from full flight once while skydiving just to see how it was in case I ever needed to in the BASE environment. It worked fine but took more muscle to do.


What's your technique? And what kind of mixed results are you getting?

OK, before discussing technique what about gear? Is it a given....? there are a lot of variables here, first and foremost is your skydiving gear completely Wingsuit specific? The obvious being bridle length, but what kind of canopy are you jumping? and are you jumping a Stowless,semi-stowless, or conventional bag? Does your rig have dynamic corners? What is your canopy type and size? Assuming that all this is Wingsuit specific, which I believe mine is, then let's take a look at deployment technique and then cover what I describe as "mixed results "
My original curiosity involves what are various pilots finding to be their most reliable deployment techniques to ensure the most reliable canopy deployments? ( In both the skydiving and BASE world ) You have only to look no further than the tragic demise of Jeff Nebelkoff, (one of the most skilled and experienced WS pilots in recent history, to understand that we should all be paying attention to the small details ).
Once again, I should say that I am trying to learn my suit in the skydiving environment before taking it into the BASE environment so obvious differences will be......, no deployment bag, and a less confined container in BASE ( more reliable ), but lower deployment altitudes, so more need for reliable openings.
My " mixed results " have included the range from getting an absolute slammer ( almost filipping through my risers ) to a couple of what felt like container locks (a lot of hesitation ) and also line/ riser twists from hell. But mostly, acceptable, reliable openings.
My tecniqhue that I felt I had sorted out on my previous suit( a Venom ) was to fly through the pitch until I felt myself being brought feet to earth, and then close my legs and bring my knees up. This has worked very well for me, and I am curious what other people are doing at this point? I recognize that flaring prior to deployment is now a recommended technique on these larger more powerful suits.
Mostly I would like to hear about peoples personal preferences for deployment technique.
Thanks, regards, B.

Jumping the Aura 1 still, but I really like speeding up at the end and pulling close to the apex of the flare. I really like the nice soft openings and the flare is just a fun move in itself! The pull is just ultra clean too.

Now, I've had a couple of slammers openings - in BASE - due to pitching too early in the flare sequence (basically when I'm leveling out, before the climb and stall). But you sort that one out real quick after one or two openings like that

Edit to add: I return to a flying, stable position after pitching. Laurent gave me that tip and he is worth listening to!

With skydiving I jump an old Javelin with no bottomless corners, normal D bag, but I do have an extended bridle. I fly a sabre 120. The openings can get funky with the shorter lineset and lack of bottomless corner and no stowless bag, and I do have a new container on the way with all those features.

For BASE I jump a Stream with outlaw lite and 38 snatch with awesome openings on every jump even when my body position may not be perfect. No slammers or twists yet.

Is the leading edge construction on the A3 different than the Freak?

I have a Freak (original) and I can't reach my toggles. Not even close. Suit fits well, but I don't think there's enough stretchy material to allow a toggle grab. I find that my reach is no different than in a PF suit (bottom of the rear risers).

Overall I LOVE the suit. But I was looking forward to toggle access.

*Edited to add that I don't use any foam in the arms.

i jump an A1, in base and sky.
i like to pitch as i'm flying up the flare, before i get to the apex.
I've had some off-heading issues when i waited to pitch until i hit the top of the flare.
it just seems like i go slightly back into freefall with very little surface control if i pitch at the top of the apex.
for me it is a lot easier to "drop a shoulder" on deployment with the diminished forward airspeed after a flare.

Not sure, but I think its similar to the freak, I haven't looked at them side by side. It seems harder to reach toggles than in the A1, but it's doable. last weekend I ended up needing to and did it.

"The Aura 3 is definitely the best suit I've ever flown in BASE "
What are the other suits ? Some recent same category from other brands suit ?

I would also like to clear again that: this inlets are not compressing anything as any other ram-air inlets.
As the suit is flying faster and also with a better position of the inlets the pressure in the A3 might be higher than the previous versions, but the size or the shape of these inlets does not change it.
There is a big difference between the pressure and the efficiency of the air-locks. By collapsing the wing to reach the PC and because of the very efficient air-locks you ar creating yourselves the pressure that you are feeling during the pitch.

How many people aren honestly flying several different brands of recent large category suits? Youd be spending like $6000 on suits, and have to learn the intricacies of each suit to really gauge their performance against one another. I'm pretty sure he was just stating an opinion that this was the best suit he's ever flown, not that it's better than all the other current suits. How do the other recent large one piece tracking suits compare to yours? Have you flown them all?

interesting point,
i wonder how many others feel the same?

I fly a Tonysuit R Bird Pro + and a Colugo 2.
Both are fine suits but have different flight characteristics.
I chose to take the Tonysuit on a recent euro trip primarily because it allows me better access to toggles while still zipped.
My Colugo fits well, but i can't reach the toggles in an "emergency" situation.
At least I don't think so.

Not badmouthing the Colugo, obviously many people fly squirrel product very successfully.

Having over 100+ jumps on a Venom and A1 plus more on the A2, the A3 is in at a new level when it comes to the pull at least in the BASE environment. Comparisons of the A3 are not valid other than the CR series. If you are Basing the A3 and do not come for the CR series, get some coaching is my experience. ps: love the suit !

ps: I use the 5 mm foam

You get my point but you think it's not a valid one. No problem with that.
For the direct attack on myself I think you can search for a long time to find me saying my suit is the best. I'm always saying that my suit is not for everybody and that some suit from other brands are fitting to certains flying style better than mine.

I still think that saying that a suit is the best is stupid, it depends too much on what you want to do and on how you are flying.

I also think that A3 is not making as good starts as an A2, and by starts I'm talking about the firsts
4-5 seconds. That's an other reason I would like to know what suit has been flown before when they are saying "it's the best suit I ever flew".

Finally got my A3 so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Haven't got enough jumps or data to really get a feel for the starts in it so I'll refrain from commenting on that for the moment.

The suit feels super nice in flight. Really like the way it flies. No complaints about that.

The pull is significantly harder than my other suits (A2, C2, 2015 C-race) jumping with no foam. This was an odd point for me, and seems a serious step backward for a BASE oriented suit. Particularly after a long alpine approach, and then a long flight down, I can imagine with tired arms this could become a serious issue.

The nutsack: Another step backward. What the actual fuck. As someone who typically jumps down a lot of gear, this is a huge pain in the ass for me. I think I can understand the rationale behind the change, but i don't agree with it. Not only is the storage area smaller, but it is restricted to an area right up your crotch making it a bit more awkward on exit. Bring back the A2 storage sack please squirrel. Especially considering the whole suit feels more constrictive than the A2, I really would have appreciated the extra storage in the leg wing.

It also seems that squirrel has done nothing to reduce the weight of the suit for hikers. My suit weighs 2.9kg, the same as my A2. But with more zippers, longer zippers, extra fabric reinforcing the booties etc, I think they could have done more in this regard.

To be honest, for jumps which require lots of gear for access or have long and relatively cruisy flights, or terrain which precludes a long flare. I'd prefer to fly my A2, due to the increased storage and ease of pulling. For shorter jumps, where I'm not super tired from the ascent, with steep and technical terrain to fly I can see either the A3 or maybe the C-race being my suit of choice.

Overall the A3 is nice but it is not really what I would have come to expect from a BASE oriented suit.

Does the A3 also include the pressurisation zips in the arm and leg wings?

What are the down sides to opening these up on a suit that is hard to collapse at pull time:
- Longer starts?
- weaker flare?
- handling that is less sharp?

How many jumps have you made on an A3...or A2 for that matter? You have of opinions for someone with not that much insight...

The A3 starts as fast as the A2, period...I know, cause Ive jumped both...a lot. Am I biased, yes.

As the guy didn't said what kind of suits he flew before asking it make sense for me.

In my sentence when I'm saying "I think" why are you understanding "I'm sure".

The arms are lower and the inlets are smaller so usually it means that the suit's inflation is slower and the lift later.
That's why I was a bit sceptical on a faster start in the first 4-5 seconds, and not after.

If you got some FlySight tracks to compare it would be great, but it looks that you only think I'm Squirrel bashing when I just want to understand how they can have made a suit that starts faster with lower arm and smaller inlets.
If you don't care about the how just do not answer to my questions specially when I did not ask you anything.

So just to be clear, your comment is based on 0 personal experience with the suit being discussed. I've found that your track suit is shit and unstable to fly, even though I've never flown it.

My guess is based on 0 experience or it would not be a guess.
It is based on basic aerodynamics.

I don't get why it bother you that I can think that the A3 is making not as good starts as A2 in the first 4-5 seconds. It looks like you take it personal.

Everybody says that the star arc 8-10 seconds is better and the suit has a better speed the its predecessor. For me it make sense on how the suit is built. But not for the first 4-5 seconds.

You can say that my suit is shit but i would like some arguments like a problem of shape, of surface over or under the gravity center, inappropriate air inlets... It would probably help me make a better suit, and I will really enjoy talk about that

Thanks for posting that.

There's been so much brand-war fan boy bashing around here lately that it's good to hear some real feedback from someone who is a real customer with actual things to add to the conversation.

Let's hope it doesn't get lost in the static.

If you haven't, I'd suggest you send that feedback to Squirrel directly.

How about an A3 vs A2 review ? I'm still on the fence for an A3 and the reviews are somewhat mixed, another would really help out. Just in the Squirrel A3 video alone - the chick says the pull felt great, while the guy in green looks like he's struggling. Matt calls the start arc "accessible" what does that mean , there are some special tricks you need to know ? Anyway, would really appreciate your efforts.

Everybody says you're an asshole too but I just don't believe them.
#clearlynotapersonalattack

Fuck what you heard - please try to make empirical real world first-person observations before spewing your vitriolic bullshit across the interwebs.

Can someone please develop a HideAntoine just like my HideHeid plug-in please?

Saying that I it make sense for me that the start src is better is vitriolic bullshit. Does that mean you think I'm wrong ?

No. I'm just saying that proffering an opinion without significant comparative experience is kind of a dick move.

Although my French is pretty shitty, I'll try to explain my position.

J'sais pas si tu as tort. Je pense que les 'starts' sont quelque chose qui peut être étudié. Mais pour autant que je sache, vous n'êtes pas un wingsuiter, n'est pas?

In sum, I think we all get your position (race suits can be more sketchy to BASE jump with) and broadly agree with you. However, I take issue with your: 1) experience with flying new/race-style wingsuits, and 2) your attribution of blame between user and manufacturer.

First I'm making wingsuits and I'm jumping them so yes I have no experience with Aura 3 but I like to think that I have some knowledge about how a wingsuit is flying and how the shape/surface up or down the garvity center is changing the way a wingsuit is starting before it really flies.

That's why I would like to have somebody telling if I'm wrong or not about the falling part (4-5 seconds) of this A3. It would probably help me not making mistakes on my next homemade wingsuit.

+1

 

I like how you cut what I wrote.
You are so right about. I'm exactly as you are saying.
Thank you

Hi, My name is Dustin. I have been reading this forum since 2005. Here is some real feed back. First a brief history of my experience. Started skydiving in 1995. BASE jumping in 2007. wing suit base in 2012. Currently a paid professional BASE and skydiving instructor. The first 400 of 500 hundred BASE jumps were slider off. The next 666 BASE jumps were slider up in the mountains, mostly wing suit, maybe 100 two piece tracking jumps. 4 years skydiving and 1 season BASE on a PF phantom2. 1 year skydiving and 1 season of BASE on a PF v4. 4 years skydiving and 3 seasons BASE on a Aura1. 30 skydives and 2 months BASE jumping an A3 whilst living and working in Norway. I have paid for every wing suit I have owned.

This is the 1st season of BASE with a fly sight. The A3 is an awesome suit that draws heavily from the real numbers and testing of Squirrels skydiving Race suits. Now that the A3 is becoming part of me, (no longer feels like a "new" suit) I give you my personal feed back. The starts are as good or better than A1. If you start on more forgiving jumps that you can compare with other suits and understand that the # in front of the suit means it is a new suit and you must treat it as such. In flight it is faster, smoother, and more aerodynamic than the A1. For BASE I am flying no foam now. As the suit ages I will slowly add foam. The pull is familiar and easy for me.

For Antoine, who by the way cares and does more for BASE and general human flight than most of the diarrhea spewing fools that own computers: My 1st few exists on the A3 in Kjerag were
steeper and longer than I was used to. With patience and time I was able to get my mojo back with a new suit that does everything else better. You have to learn and work a bit more for the start. The new inlets are not necessarily smaller. The opening is smaller, yet the length is much longer and they are more aerodynamic in flight.

Big Love! now get off line and go jump

If anyones wondering, Squirrel makes shinny toys for the big hikes

That’s rad that your roof is an exit point.

Is that their normal ‘silver’ color or a new color?

Similar color, different material

Lightweight material? Let us know how it holds up after some wear and tear! Sweet looking suit

Yepp, the new Cloudlite. It's probably gonna be a bit till I get a lot of jumps on this thing since I have a "normal" A3 that I'll be using for anything without a huge hike it's starting to snow so the skis are coming out.

Could you weigh both suits and let us know what each one weighs? Also, what is your height? Do you know what kind of material it is? and is it only in silver?

I'll have to find an accurate scale for that, the one in my house varies by 2-3lb... although of the three reasons for the material weight is the lowest. It's mainly bulk savings and it inflates noticeably quicker after exit. I only have one jump on it so far and my FlySight glitched out for the first half of the jump but hopefully I'll have more data soon. Once I get the rig to accompany it I'll track down an accurate scale and post some weights up. And I'm 6' and have no idea what type of material it is besides that it's shiny, really thin, and I love the way it flys

Usually shiny silver fabric means it is coated on the inside for the porosity and on the outside to get this effect, this is more sensitive to abrasion, where for a normal fabric the fiber itself is colored and only the inside is coated for porosity.

According to Squirrel's 80% of the reviews the new Corvid has the A2 starts and A3 agility.
"consistent start arcs that rival the A2"
"comparable to the A3 in glide (top of the line glide performance) and comparable to the A2 in the start (very easy start)"
"the best characteristics of the A2 (starts and agility) and A3 (glide and flare)"

I don't think I undestand it wrong by thinking that they are all meaning that the A2 has better starts than the A3.

Maybe they are just wrong, or you were wrong, what do you think ?

BTW that also means that all the Squirrel people should erase "It offers the shortest start arc" from the Aura, and should have said that the A3 had not as good starts as the A2.

Being honest and doing marketing is not easy I know.

You got a lot of hate in you, buddy...

Right now I'm surely having fun.
It's not hate, or maybe it has not the same meaning in French I don"t know.
What I got not is an answer, that's for sure :D
I guess that there is no good answer, if you are not wrong they are lying, if they are not wrong you were lying...
Hard choice indeed

The key words on the starts are “easy” and “consistent”. A good handful of pilots I’ve talked to (sponsored and non sponsored) have had their best starts on their A3 better than their best on the A1/2 but their worst starts on the A3 are worse than their worst on the A1/2.

From my personal experience I’ve found and described it as “push angle margin”. Basically you have a smaller range of angles to push at to keep that perfect start on the A3. To throw out arbitrary numbers as an example, let’s say the A1/2 can get a perfect start if you push off between 25 degrees head high and 35 degrees head low but anything outside that range puts you too steep and gives you a bad start. To get the same perfect A3 start you would need to push between 10 degrees headhigh and 25 degrees headlow.

*discliamer, those angles are completely made up and use used to represent the smaller window of push angle*

With the A3 it takes a bit more training and effort for a perfect start. The Corvid fills that gap making the start just as easy as an A1/2 to access and slight more flight performance than the A2 but still a bit less than the A3.

You should re-read Hartman’s review, especially considering he’s been a key role in testing and analyzing the data on the suit. His review clears a few questions up. “more forgiving in the start, even with sub-optimal technique or conditions”

I haven’t flown one yet but I jumped with a few in Moab (I was in my A3) and chatted with 3 of the 4 people who reviewed the suit who all have flown A3’s in the past. If you look at posts and their comments on social media, the Corvid has an awesome flare but not quite as good as the A3 (expected) as it as a slower suit so less speed to convert to a flare “Because the speed to fly in lifting air is slower and the low end of the speed range is easier to fly, it gains even more of an advantage when flying in lifting air.” -Hartman.

Basically you’re loosing a bit of the performance for easier to access starts and a suit that in amazing conditions will perform better than an A3 because of the slower speeds the suit goes, the more the winds will effect it.

I’ll be ordering one and still keeping my A3. Different tools for different jobs. If I’m jumping something super super underhung and short, especially if I’ve just done a massive approach and I’m tired and sore, I’ll probably take the Corvid so I can focus more on the strength of the push than the angle knowing if I get the angle off a bit I’ll still have a perfect start. It’s also nice knowing you have that extra margin for human error when you eventually fuck your exit a bit. But most other short starts I’ll take the A3 because I can still (very consistently for me) get really good starts and I like the higher performance for terrain flying and every other aspect of the flight (I’ve never had deployment issues and I have the GS leading edge so I don’t have to touch a single zipper to get toggles and land).

I think curancy and training play a huge role on if you’re getting good starts or not with the A3. The A3 was made to get good starts and better performance. A good handful of people wanted something that had easier starts and didn’t care about performance as much so Squirrel made the Corvid to please them and are keeping the A3 in the lineup because there’s still a lot of people who either don’t need the shortest start and want the performance gains for the jumps they do, or they’re willing to put in more work to get those perfect starts.

thanks for the write up

Beautiful post.

I guess I am the only one that understood what is written in the wrong way, all my apologies !

Actually I prefer Richard Webb review, probably because it is going in my way about the wingsweep I was takling about in this thread and the A2/A3 comparaison.

I will continue to look to the 2 seconds starts as described (20 first meters of fall in the real world) and see that best starts are 150/150 and average is 250/250, so I will continue to jump my suits on short start with a lot of confidence ;)

You should copy past your post in a new thread about the Corvid.

I’ll start a new thread on the Corvid as soon as I get mine and put enough jumps on it to say something meaningful. Besides my last post clearing up your misconceptions and being very clear I have not jumped a Corvid yet; just talked technical facts with most of the pilots involoved in designing it and watched them jump it, I usually like to have a bit of experience on the suit in question before giving my opinion on it....

Thanks for the post. I'm not getting either suit but always interested in reading details about new stuff.

I don't think there was misconceptons, I woud call misunderstandings because probably english is not my first language, and also I think because it is meant to be like this for the marketing. And in some review there is not misunderstandings that the A2 was making better starts than the A2 for a lot of people.
Also my point in this thread was about the 4-5 first seconds and not the full start arc, that I agreed that A3 one's was probably better. And like Richard Webb is saying the armsweep is one of the most important variable in these seconds.
Well I agree on my misunderstanding of the text, but not on the technical part.

BTW for me a suit that make average starts of 250/250 is not making short starts in a consistent way and I would never jumped exits that are not under the average starts I can do in the suit. As you said it's even more hard to have consistent starts in the A3 jumping exit under 250/250 requires even more balls, or for me is even more stupidly risky.

If you're already planning on blowing the exit, maybe walk away now?
Having a suit make up for the short comings/poor training/lack of planning of an individual is one of many reasons people are going in. You're mindset is "well, I'm gonna fuck up the exit but this suit is going to be what corrects my bad judgement." Bad idea man!

I guess Brad can use the photo of you standing on your roof

If your mindset is that you will do everything 100% perfect every time and dont leave margin for human error like pushing a few degrees higher than you want or not quite as hard or slipping a bit and getting a weaker push then you’re kidding yourself and likely going to go in with that mentality.

I’m regularly starting 650/650’ or less but if I end up pushing too headhigh and going steep which rarely happens it might be more like 750/750’ but more importantly if there’s a big ledge you have to push hard over and then it’s a bit underhung from there, it seems foolish to not take the suit that you can focus more on pushing hard over that first ledge knowing if your angle is a few degrees off you’ll still start fine and clear the lower parts than being in the higher performance suit that might put you into that ledge if you misjudge your angle a bit.

I doubt anyone who’s gone in from blowing an exit was planning on blowing the exit. I’m just not cocky enough to assert I’m better than everyone who’s gone in and there’s not chance I’ll ever have a less than perfect exit. And I’m sure there’s a few people on the list who had exactly that attitude and that’s why they’re there.

Let's be real, you are way past giving yourself "extra margin" in that scenario. Seriously

On another note, where can I read the reviews on the Corvid? I'm interested and like comfort on the exit and easy starts. I absolutely love that about my A1

Edit to add: I see the Corvid is up on Squirrels website with the reviews.

Reviews can be found here: https://squirrel.ws/wingsuits/corvid

I haven’t jumped one yet but from talking with Hartman and Rich it sounds like what you’re looking for. I just submitted a preorder on one so hopefully I can give you feedback in the next couple months

If you look at the site and flysight track they posted it is a 135m start, not 150m. Not that that matters too much, just trying to keep facts straight. Since you brought it up, are your average starts in your suit? Your best start?

The 2 seconds refers to inflated and pressurized. Obviously they aren't saying you're flying 20m down and out at a 2.5:1 GR. That would be ridiculous. That mainly comes from people flying (non Squirrel) suits with huge inlets that practically pressurize as you push off the exit with the misconception that that means they're already flying, not just falling inflated as their suit recovers from a stall. (Although I will admit it's nice to feel that pressurization earlier than later weather it's helping or not)


Well considering my average starts in my A3 are just under 200m (198m) and best start at 129m, I'm guessing they pulled the average start between varying skill and conditions to give a more realistic expectation for the customer. Because seeing the suits side by side and watching them jump, Hartman was definitely out starting me consistently (I'm sure he would in any suit though). But I can pretty much guarantee with a bit of training your average start will be a lot better than 250m. The flip side is they could have posted the average start of their top pilots who would crush it in any suit, then you would claim those are unrealistic numbers and everyone would buy the suit expecting to preform at that level.

Most of my jump are recorded and put on Skyderby.ru where you can see them.
Depends on the suit I'm jumping with of course.
With good conditions I got a 220/220 with a 2009 RBird this summer while doing a couple of training jump before jumping with my last homemade suit.
With this last wingsuit I made my worst start was 230/230 and best 150/150 before I change the leading edge foam and the inlets.
Since I changed them both I got worst 200/200, 190/190 and 175/175 (only 3 jumps).
All jump from Brento no thermals. I've done 12 wingsuit jumps in the last 2.5 years, these jumps included.
On more challenging exit I think I would do better starts, Brento is not the best because the ground is so far down.
I think it is good starts, not short starts.

That mainly comes from Squirrel's website, I've not seen that anywhere else (or I would have wrote it is BS too), and if the others are saying BS there is no need to do the same...

BTW on a suit I made I've been from a 4-ish seconds full inflation to a 2-ish seconds one and it has improved a lot the starts like 20 to 30%. Of course I was not flying at 2 seconds or before, but I was flying earlier during the start arc.
It is probably not good to have large inlets during the flight as it creates drag and at some point the goal is to find the best balance of course, but my guess is that the sooner the inflation is, the better is the start, whatever the suit.

Agree on this one, it's better to put numbers that the customers can reach and not the number from the bests pilots. If it is why these number are like they are it's nice, but I still doubt of that because of all the marketing BS I'm used to see from Squirrel.
Here there is only one file and it's the 135/135, "everyone would buy the suit expecting to preform at that level".

What I'm trying to do is to erase all the marketing bullshit to get to the essential.
What is BS for me ? This:
- "more BASE-friendly arm sweep"... I'm still looking for the meaning of this...
- "Cleanest, Easiest Pull"... compares to what ? I would have wrote "Clean and easy pull"
- "Ultimate Comfort for WS BASE"... again compares to what ?

What is my understanding at the end ?
For the average customer:
- A3 was not doing as good average starts as A2 for the first half of the start arc, but at the end it was better and the suit was flying faster
- Corvid is doing better average starts than A3, with less speed and glide than the A3 but more than the A2
It is very probably a very good suit, as most of Squirrel's suit, as I've always said.

I read it as an Aura 2.5, basically.

Some of the A1 creature comforts with the newer Aura style wing.

Sweet. That's not enough jumps to pull statistical data from for how consistent a suit is but that sounds like decent starts. I was honestly expecting slightly better starts considering the massive size of the suit and the fact that it seems to sacrifice nearly every other aspect of the suits performance (speed, agility, and from your last video: pitch stability, although maybe that was just technique?) but still, respectable numbers! Nice!


It's not something I've seen from other sites, it's something I've heard from people flying other suits: "It's not a good exit unless your flying in 2 seconds" or "my starts are better, look how fast I'm inflated" or "I wish the Aura3 started in 2 seconds like the ______ does" so now Squirrel's saying you wanted that, here it is.


How are you measuring that 20/30% better? How many jumps on each design is that comparing? On a 200m start with the old inlets, you're saying you have a 140/160m start instead with the new inlets? From looking at my data between 200m starts and 130m starts, the first 3-4 seconds look the same and then the arcs start to separate from there. They main difference from analyzing video between the two is the strength of push and how long it takes me to end up at the perfect angle. Whether the suit was inflated in 2 seconds or 3 seconds or 3.5 seconds didn't correlate to the rest of the start. Or are you saying at 2 seconds down you were 20/30% further way from the wall due to different inlets? If that's the case I would find it hard to believe but be impressed if it was true.

From what I've seen and experienced, at 2 seconds down your push, amount of wing exposed, and your angle is going to have more effect than whether or not your wing is fully pressurized. Having only traveled 20m down and a speed of 40mph or less, you wont be generating much lift from your wing profile, more so using the momentum if your push and and the air deflecting off your bottom skin of the suit to give you a bit of push. Once you pick up more speed you start generating more lift from the suit. As a bonus, if you hit the right angle off exit with a reasonably low angle of attack, your suit inflates just as fast, even with the smaller inlets. I'm sure sooner inflation helps a little bit but at those speeds not nearly enough as proper technique and if your technique is on point, the A3 inflates just as fast as an A1/A2 that had the bigger inlets.


They put an average start and then a "3 best starts". Then they posted the flysight track to one of the 3 best starts to show it's legit, not just a line on the graph they drew to look like a better start.


BASE-friendly arm sweep = start friendly arm sweep. Higher arm sweep for more push angle margin.



Mostly correct. The A3 is better or the same as A2 all the way through on a great exit, worse for the first half/better on second half on a good/ok exit and worse all the way through if your push angle is off. But yes, flying faster at the end of all those.

Pretty much it. I think it's a great addition to the lineup. I remember when I switched from the A1 to the A3, I loved it but was also thinking the A1 is a great first big suit for BASE with effortless exits and super forgiving flight vs the A3 which takes a much better pilot to fly well but yields much better performance all around. I wouldn't recommend the A3 as someones first big suit for BASE, it's more for someone who is already good at bigsuit BASE and wants more performance. I would have recommended that someone to move from their mid-sized suit to a used A1/2 then to the A3 once they dialed the 1/2 in. The problem was Squirrel didn't offer a current suit to fill the gap as the A3 replaced the A2. So the Corvid should go back and take that spot as a suit that's forgiving (relatively speaking for a large suit) like the A1/A2 with a bit of modern performance. Then you can move to the A3 when your skills are ready and you want the extra performance for terrain flying and other stuff.


From Squirrel site https://squirrel.ws/nerds:


The link above has some great technical info. Definitely worth a read

As it is a wintip pouch if we are talking about my latest wingsuit, pitch stability is not even a thing we can talk about as there is no pitch gesture.
I'm pitching at the end of the flare with too low speed.
I think you are talking about this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isWoC4WYETc
Here it the matching track:
https://skyderby.ru/tracks/24722
You can think that I'm going sideways but it is just me looking to the right side to check if the PC has left its "pocket".
What I'm not managing to do is to stay head up longer.

Not me, after 12 wingsuit jumps in more than 2 years I'm very happy about it.
Without the new leading edge and inlets I was able to get 150/150, and with I felt that the suit was easier to manage during the start arc. My guess is that with a bit of training 150/150 would be the average start.

I really think that you are wrong about that, I think it is like a Nala (or CR+ which is the same).
Arm sweep is 27° on my suit and is probably very close to the Aura 3/Corvid (which are the same 27° according to the drawings on the website ???).
Wingspan is the length of my arm to my wrist, at the end the same as a SQ suit with the "PROFILE GRIPPER".
The only difference might be the legwing, the legs are probably a bit more spread than classic wingsuits.

The wingsuits I'm making are made to be gliding suits, I'm not a good/experienced wingsuit pilot so I prefer to have good starts and stay high, having a good time flying above the mountains.
I actually don't know if it can go fast or if it is agile as I'm not enough good to try to push it.
This one if flying "naturally" (if you just do nothing like me) at 150kmph, which is not slow at all, the previous model were flying at 110/130 "pushing" them.

You just said it is BS, so if people want BS let give them BS !?!
Or you can also explaining to people how they are probably wrong.
This is exactly what I don't like about the marketing.

Sorry I was not very clear on this one and I lead you on a wrong path.
It was not with this last wingsuit but on the previous one I got.
Some measurments were done with Flysight to confirm the feeling of the 10 jumps before and 10 after more or less.
I went from an average of more than 180 to a 120-150. I went from 4 seconds full inflation to a 2 seconds.
https://skyderby.ru/tracks/5824

My guess on this one is not that the size of the inlets is not changing how fast a suit inflates, but more that the volume of air needed to inflate an A1/A2 is bigger that the one needed to inflate an A3.
Bigger let get in more air.

Can you have numbers somehow ? As I said on the drawings on the website it is exactly the same on the A3 and on the Corvid.

I've told people they were wrong on that plenty of times. And I agree with you on marketing. Unfortunately that's the world we live in today. Same shit in the bike, car, ski and nearly every other industry. Yuri_Base has a post somewhere on DZ.com that quotes a whole bunch of ridiculous things from every manufacture used as marketing. It's just how things are.


The drawings on the site are drawings, not technical sketches. They give an idea what the suit looks like but aren't scientifically accurate. One even says "Your CR+ will maybe look something like this, but not exactly, probably, or like whatever" under it. They are a visual aid, not made to figure out the exact dimension's Squirrel uses. I've seen the suits side by side and laid over each other. They are different. The Corvid looks more like the A2. I don't have numbers on either. I'm sure you can ask Squirrel if you want to know.



In the end this is a fairly pointless debate. There's plenty of info here to make a decision on the Aura3 or Corvid if you're about to order one. You're likely not going to order either and will likely continue to hold your opinions on both suits having never flown either and never seen a Corvid in person. That's fine. You can also say you dont think either are good for short starts. That's also fine. I will continue to use my A3 (and soon Corvid) for short starts because I know they work well for that. They're both good suits and depending what you want out of it, one will be better for you. The Aura 3 is an awesome suit just as capable of short starts as previous Auras. It just takes more training and consistency in your skill to get that. It has way better agility and performance than any other Aura suit. Those of us who take the time to train it and fly it really like it and get good results. I've jumped my shortest stuff in the A3, like Dragons Nest. I've repeated technical jumps in the High Sierra that were opened with an A1/2 by a very capable pilot and comparing notes in our logbooks to see conditions matched, when looking at video (unfortunately I done have his flysight tracks), I was matched on the start but then able to fly higher lines, buzz lower on terrain, and manage to flare more to pull higher over the LZ.

Debating more on this seems like a waste of both of our time.

On this one I don't get you.
I never said they are the same and never argue about that, I just said that I cannot compare to my wingsuit because I don't have the number and the drawings are the same.
There is no debate about that.
You have an A3, you can give its the arm sweep so I can compare to my wingsuit.


I like to design my own suit, I will not buy these ones, and I will not buy any other ones either.

I never said A3/Corvid are not good for short starts. I said that it is not good enough for me because I'm only jumping short exits with suits that are making it easy. By this I mean that I need to be sure that with my worst start of my last 10-15 jumps (whatever the conditions) I can make it, this is how my margins are.
For example I will not jump short starts with my wingsuit for now, the numbers are not good enough. I will need 10 150/150 in a row to go to an exit where 150/150 is needed.

I cannot stand with a "It's just how things are", I will continue to write about what I think is BS, and I hope I will have people continue to debate with me if it is BS or not, sometimes I change my mind, sometimes not.

Ok, I misinterpreted your other comments to be saying the A3 and Corvid are the same arm sweep. We can agree that they are not the same?



You said "a suit that make average starts of 250/250 is not making short starts in a consistent way". I was saying I'm getting far better average starts in my A3. And my A1 was easier to get those starts which is sounds like the Corvid brings back the easy starts. Therefore it would be a consistent easy short start.



And I will continue to review the gear I jump and if someone is saying something incorrect about gear I am familiar with, I will attempt to explain the facts and my experience with it.

You saw the 2, you said that they are not the same and it makes sense on how the suit was engineered, so sure yes.
I would like to have numbers about that !

Considering I don’t work for Squirrel or have access to their tech files, and I’m pretty sure no one who posts regularly on this forum does, asking here isn’t likely to yield answers. I would ask them. You can email them at fly@squirrel.ws

The corvid is a slightly tamed down version of the c-race. That is from the horses mouth.

Curious if you have more info or can elaborate? Do you mean it has C-Race tech in it? Because that's most of the big suits. C3 = mini C-Race with easier pull, A3 = C-Race proto that has good BASE characteristics, all suits now have the LE they were using with the C-Race. From their site on the Corvid:

So basically all the big suits are toned down C-Race's or have C-Race tech in them to improve their performance. It would seem this is more and Aura 2.5 with a few tweaks they learned from the C-Race to improve the performance to being closer to the A3 than the A2 but still keeping the low effort starts of the A2?

Unfortunately I do not have more info. It was just mentioned in passing when I ordered my C-Race.