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Last year at the thanksgiving boogie I noticed couple of jumpers using shallow brake settings. I know of one that had a cliff strike. Is there a reason why you would use shallow brake setting on a free fall jump, slider down at a cliff?

"confirmation bias" comes to mind.

Poor understanding of brake settings, not wanting to dial them in and fearing theyre too deep, laziness, and wanting to fly at a cliff face really fast right after opening all come to mind.

Clearly the heightened awareness they have during exit will become invaluable once they begin proxy flying.

I think it's a very poor decision.

We shot a video for our Youtube series on this a few weeks ago. I think it's scheduled to go up on-line this Wednesday, but I'll have to check. I'll try to post a link once it's live.

There are two main arguments people use to justify using shallow brakes on slider down, solid objects. Neither of them are very convincing to me.


The first argument is that the canopy will turn "faster" if it's in shallow brakes, because it has more forward speed.

This stems from a fundamental mis understanding of what is desirable in an avoidance correction.

"Faster" in a dictionary sense would mean that the canopy achieves more degrees of heading correction in fewer seconds of time. It might (or might not) be true that the canopy can be turned "faster" in this sense in a shallower brake setting. However, whether it's turning "faster" isn't actually very relevant in this environment.

The two critical measures of turn "speed" that we should use are;

a) How many feet of forward travel toward the cliff are consumed per degree of turn, and;

b) How many feet of altitude are consumed per degree of turn.

In my view, the most important of these is (a) the consumption of forward distance toward the cliff. I believe this is the most important because the vast majority of critical injuries in this jumping environment result from striking the cliff (not the ground). On this measure, a shallower brake setting is a clear loser because it makes the canopy consume more forward distance during the turn.

In terms of (b) the vertical altitude used to complete the heading correction, it is true that the canopy in shallower brakes will consume slightly less altitude. But the difference in altitude consumption between the two is likely to be very small-something measured in single digit feet is most likely, but at the very largest (a 90 degree hard riser stall-correction, on a small and highly loaded canopy with low drag and a violent stall recovery) we might be talking about something on the order of 30 feet.

In other words, we don't want the "fastest" turn--we want the one that uses the least forward space (toward the cliff strike) and that will be best achieved with a deeper brake setting.


The second argument is that the canopy will pressurize faster in a shallower brake setting. Generally, people are going to shallower brakes for faster pressurization because they are more worried about striking the ground than striking the object. A quick review of the accident statistics suggests that this is a simple case of poor risk analysis. Far more critical slider down BASE accidents occur from object strike than ground strike. And most ground-strike incidents result not from slow openings, but from poor canopy control skills (and occur while under fully open canopies, well after opening).

Again, this idea is founded in a very slight real advantage. Moving from the factory deep to factory shallow brakes on most manufacturers canopies means going 4 or 5 inches shallower. In my experience, this may result in full pressurization something like 10 (or less) feet higher.


There are many advantages to using a deeper brake setting that are being lost here, too, and generally outweigh either of these perceived advantages. Primary among them are;

(a) Greater reaction time--a slower moving canopy gives the jumper more time to react to an off heading and initiate heading correction, and;

(b) Slower object impact--a slower moving canopy will strike the object slower and result in a lower impact energy, generally correlating to reduced injuries for the jumper--most importantly in an improved chance that the jumper will retain consciousness and therefore be able to continue reacting to the situation in the post-strike phase of the incident.


Bottom line--I think that jumping slider down, solid objects on a shallow brake setting is a very bad idea.

Every man who posted (so far) is a member
of the Customized Deep Brake Setting camp
so I will offer my own input just for contrast

I use shallow for:
ALL Slider-UP
Some Spans
Some Antennas

I use Factory Deep for:
ALL Solid Objects

I get the theoretical benefit of having perfectly
customized brake setting and toggle placement
for dialed-in riser responses . . . butttt benefits
are small and if mis-used could be problematic.

By this I mean the affect of field elevation and
body weight changes on opening characteristics.
See attached images for Moab, Twin, Tally and
then consider the affect on traveling jumpers.

My post was in reference to the idea of using Factory deep brake setting v. Factory shallow settings.

I wasn't discussing customizing the brake settings--just the differences between the two factory settings on _most_ canopies.



Disclaimer: I do not believe it's safe to assume that the factory settings will function for all slider down jumps without testing, and I always recommend testing all brake settings (even the factory ones) from a safe-ish object before trusting them in a critical situation.

i disagree here. that greatly depends on jumper and canopy. for some the factory settings are ok, but for some its massively off. and by that i mean that ive seen canopies shoot off in factory deep brake settings more than others using shallow brakes.


yes, agreed. any ideas on how to educate people to recognize the difference between way too shallow, ok, and too deep?


i would not draw a line inbetween camps here. ive got my osp in factory setting and its just fine there, my zp nose troll with factory setting, troll without zp nose a lot deeper, outlaw with just a tiny bit deeper, and my ospeak quite a bit deeper.


yes, but this does apply to any break setting. if the factory setting is already spot on for a certain jumper, he should be aware of this the same way another jumper with custom dbs should be.

i really see no difference here. and i cannot see two camps here.

i wonder if i got the quote & green madness right here....

I'm in the custom deep brake settings camp, but I have also seen jumpers use shallow brake settings on solid slider down objects.

I wish one of those people would come and defend their use of shallow brakes, because if there is a logical argument for it I want to hear it.

One jumper I know said they do it because they want to "plan for the on-heading". That doesn't make sense to me, but would love to hear a proper explanation.

Two years ago, I did a few jumps with the jumper in question who had the object strike with shallow brakes this year. His reasoning was that he he sees people with too deep of brakes stalling backward on opening, and that he almost always has on headings so he'd rather be moving away from the cliff faster rather than slower. I thought about it for a second, laughed to myself, and continued to pack in deep brakes. From what I saw on his Facebook, after his cliff strike this year, he may be rethinking that theory...

Personally I use my factory deep brakes. I did a few skydives on my canopy and short delay on tall object base jumps to play around and see where I'd need my custom deeps set, and it ended up being about 1" deeper than the factory deep which really wouldn't make much of a difference and would require me to move my factory deep, so I decided to just use factory deep.

Why doesn't he pack in no brakes then?

"I always have on-headings so no need for a strong push."

Canopies can stall on opening if you have a deep brake setting that is too deep. I have never owned or jumped a canopy that stalled on opening with factory deep settings. I have had my own canopy stall on opening with custom deep brake settings; however, it was a controlled jump at the Perrine Bridge for me to test custom brake settings after having lost over 15 lbs (I had set the custom brake 15 lbs heavier). Loosing weight may cause your canopy to stall on opening with custom setting if you happened to set them when heavier...but if you set them when heavier and then loose weight they are not custom anymore .

I would think manufacturers set the factory deep brake setting conservatively or as if it would be jumped lightly loaded so that heavier jumpers will not stall on opening...can anybody verify this? One way I think you could stall on opening with factory deep brake setting is an ultra lightly loaded canopy with a very strong tail wind.

[Edited to correct for spelling and to make clarification]

[clarification]: gaining weight will just have you open with faster forward speed on opening in a custom deep brake setting...which is then not custom anymore but still better than factory deep settings since being a deeper brake setting will still slow you down a bit more from factory deep setting.

Does anybody know if the minimum weight on manufacturers' chart takes into account a jumper stalling a lightly loaded canopy on opening with factory deep setting? Or do the weight ranges min/max on the chart take many more things into account like flight characteristics and the canopy design and testing specs?

What charts are you talking about?

Outlaw chart on the manual has min/max recommended exit weights. Apex and Atair only have recommended weight but do not state a min/max range.

More like a table actually...chart is probably not the right word

I think this is the reason why some manufacturers have gone to the two deep brake setting approach. I know asylum/squirrel has been doing this for a while. I honestly dont know what others are as well.

The jumper in question was talking about his factory deep vs shallow where neither stalled on opening.



A strong tailwind wouldn't apply to a solid object, and if it was an A, you wouldn't have a risk of object strike with winds that high, so no need for deep brakes.

I don't exactly see how that would apply to the decision of slider up vs. down, for solid object jumps, though. Can you clarify the relevancy?

(For the record, one of my rigs has customized brake settings, the other is factory set.)

Just like Green Machine added custom brakes for some reason you have now added a slider to the conversation

I've seen several. That's the reason I think you should test all your brake settings (even factory) in a controlled environment before trusting them for a technical jump, especially a slider down one.

I agree with most of what every one typed.
Test your settings, know your variables, and
understand how their change can affect things.

Yes, every jumper weight + canopy type + size
combination could create its own unique outcome.

Yes, I added the "Custom" variable to the conversation
with my general summary being the concept of diminishing
returns apply to the EXACTNESS of any specific setting.

Random Tangent:
How About Custom Shallow Brake Settings?


TO: 84n4n4

RE: any ideas on how to educate people to recognize the difference between way too shallow, ok, and too deep?

I think discussions like this help to get people thinking.

TO: idemallie

Atair also has a table with ranges of weights for their canopies.

I think you guys just overthink it. Put them toggles in them holes in those lines and be done with it. Also, neat packjobs are overrated, the neater they are, the more likely you'll have an off-heading!

or think about it more put one toggle in the higher hole and one in the lower hole and if you have a 180 you will already be turning away from the object

i didn't mean to muddy the waters, my bad

maybe I wasn't too clear (i blame jet lag!) - I was referring to the convention:
slider up = shallow brakes
slider down = deep brakes (and specifically regarding solid objects in this thread)....about which the OP asked, why do a slider-down-solid-object, without using deep brakes.

so in my head, i think of the terms equivalently, I realize that's not all that black-and-white for some

Ah makes more sense now :) thanks

And I do actually have a custom shallow setting on a rig I just moved the SBS to keep it the same distance from the DBS and tested to ensure good opening characteristics

I like your way of thinking! Smart!

This shit is genius. Im gonna try it on my next b!

it is of my opinion if you're doing this you are lacking much knowledge and common sense.

the only reason to be jumping factory shallow settings on a solid object is if you've tested your deep factory settings and they are too deep (opens in a stall) and the factory shallow seems to be right for your DBS preference.

Video response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IunySBNVTe4

Squirrel/Asylum recommends:
For slider down/removed jumping use an appropriately set, and confirmed, DBS. This will likely be the factory DBS if you are in the recommended range of 0.69 - 0.75.

For slider up, use the factory shallow brake setting.

We think it is a personal decision and everyone should do what they want with their brakes. We just want jumpers to understand the factors, so if you’re wondering about all this stuff then maybe take the time to read this:

http://base-book.com/...about-brake-settings

You talk with your hands too much.
Next to impossible to pay attention.

And there's no guarantee that if you make an avoidance correction loosing altitude and hit the ground that you're only gonna snap your femur vs. making a correction and hitting the wall.

There is absolutely NO evidence to suggest that your injury pattern correlates to the correction method/object struck vs. ground impact. IMHO

I jump lower slider down stuff in shallow settings once in awhile. My reasoning is to have less penduluming with your body on opening.

1. It's base, if I wanted guarantees, I'd buy insurance instead of parachutes
2. There are plenty of observations, that people who smack into cliffs in shallow brakes, or land in fast turns, do worse than someone landing in deep brakes in a flat turn, flying slowly. And again, the altitude loss difference is probably small in comparison. But I admit your observations may be different, so I am genuinely curious, why do you argue against Tom's reasonable statement?
3. Tom talks with his hands a little bit, perhaps. His last name is Italian, so he can't help it, now, can he? This guy talks with his hands a lot.

Lolol, he does this in all of his classes too. He also tells you the same stories over and over, never remembering that he already told you. Never shall I forget about the Udvar-Hazy museum. (sorry Tom)


Object strike and ground strike are not mutually exclusive. When you hit the object, it causes a lot of other problems that could cause you to hit the ground pretty hard (e.g. disorientation, losing your toggles, unconsciousness). There isn't any empirical evidence of the injury pattern, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence:

https://vimeo.com/80704110

In line with this train of thought: the only real reason, I can think of, for shallow brake setting in a slider-off/down situation is, where the object height is extremely low and you would be jumping with a PCA/static-line. In this situation, it seems as though you would be reducing your risk of an off-heading by utilizing a PCA/static-line, but also reducing your canopy surge so close to the ground, thus, getting a more effective flare. Thoughts?

I disagree with going to manufacturer default brake settings. You have to dial it in. The Manu is always being conservative so you dont stall. Fly it and mark your points above stall. Shallow or deep? it is all about the jumper´s jump.
Take care, and know that one can do this test alone with sufficient canopy time.
space