Basejumper.com - archive

Hey guys. I'm familiar with what I understand as the arguments for both sides and I have a couple follow-up questions.

Has anyone measured the difference in distance between the risers on any system with slider down vs slider off during flight?

One of the arguments or points for slider down instead of slider off is that it retains a connection between the risers in the very rare event of only having one riser connected (by a material failure or incomplete cut-away such as sketchy andy's cutaway BASE jump incident). If this were no longer valid, would it change your mind about jumping slider down vs slider off? another way to connect the risers for such a situation seems plausible; however, I'm not suggesting such an additional component or modification be done in actuality...just for arguments sake.

I have always just jumped slider down, but after having a couple slider down off-headings which cause my body to rotate into a partial or full line twist, I'm starting to re-evaluate my gear configuration. Those very fucking scary jumps also made me re-evaluate the risk of cross-winds. A 90-120 off-heading used to not scare me...then I had one of those off-headings and, after opening, it caused me to rotate into a full line twist which also induced a slight harness turn (in the wrong direction). I reacted quickly, but incorrectly. I went for toggles and was disoriented with the off-heading and line-twist-in-progress. My focus became 100% on making sure I grabbed the correct toggle. I only un-stowed one toggle (the correct one). Unstowing the toggle happened before the lines were fully in the twist btw. Cranking down on one toggle while the other is stowed in what is now a head-wind (after the off-heading) didn't do as well as it had previously. I should have unstowed both toggles. Your canopy's flight characteristics relative to the air won't change (if it's consistent wind) BUT if you have a 90/120/etc off-heading in a cross-wind vs no-wind your canopy's flight characteristics relative to the cliff will be different. Right? Food for thought

I think a lot of people, myself included, get complacent about cross-winds and/or aerials and don't realize how much those things can influence line twists and canopy piloting.

Slider-OFF is better than Slider-Down!

Cleaner, Neater, Risers Spread Better,
and when shit goes wrong it is easier
to see what actions might help things.

I see where you're coming from and agree. My question, though, isn't just "does it help" but, rather, how significantly? Hence asking for a quantitative answer regarding the difference in distances between the risers for slider down vs. slider off. Cleaner and neater isn't a concern for me. Riser-spread, "easier to see what actions might help", and effect on line twist formation are all different ways of saying the same thing I think. Here's to hoping someone has some data [cheers]

I've seen videos of 1-riser release with slider DOWN, and I know some people swear it saved them by keeping the canopy more inflated / flyable. (Andy, Gary?)

My problem with that logic is that I've never seen video of a 1-riser release in a slider OFF configuration for comparison. Hard to judge objectively which is better in this situation without side by side comparison. Anyone got any links?

To be really scientific... you could probably test it out of a plane. Jump a tertiary rig, use a removable slider, cutaway ONE riser. Film the result, with and without the slider. Sounds like a fun experiment!

The major advantage to going slider off isn't the riser spread--it's reducing the complexity of the tangle over your head when you're correcting the off heading.

When we put students into a hanging twist harness in Object Avoidance, we find they perform substantially better, especially on non-visual corrections (i.e. head pinned down by twists so you are working by feel) if the slider has been removed from the risers. Generally, this is because there are fewer pieces of fabric to grab at up there, so they have an easier time working out which one is the right one to pull down.

http://www.watchthybridle.com/...-down-vs-slider-off/

This post takes some viable points up imo.
As a noobie i prefer to go W/O. Just dont want to risk any entanglements if i grab risers too high. Also, if i accidently get the slider i give the frontriser input too, making the turnrate alittle bit lower.

Looks better when packing too :D

yeah, would be really nice to see someone doing that on a skydive and measure sinkrate in both scenarios.
from the footage of such releases i have the gut feeling that the slider makes it worse, since the release side is gone for good because your lines are longer than half your canopy is wide, and the release side just pulls the slider up and actually chokes the still connected sidet.
see screenshot attached, stabilizer is pulled in, brakes are pulled in, nose at endcell is pulled in.

so slider out will for sure give you more area above your head, question remains if it makes a noticable difference or if it even starts to rotate and speeds you up or other weird shit happens in that scenario.

I remember reading some old skydiving articles on cross connectors. Don't know where and can't be bothered looking. But back in the day studies were done and it was decided cross connectors are effective. Sure a lot of it was a hold over from round canopies but the reasoning is still sound. Off the top of my head John Sherman still advocates cross connected RSLs.

I don't see how this would be possible if the slider was tied down.

i have to admit im not familiar with cross connected risers besides seeing some old drawings. i dont know though what the rsl has to do with this, also to be noted that the racer style cross connected rsls arent uncontroversial from what i read. (racers arent that common in the first place here in central europ, so my hands on experience with them is also limited to packing one once)


ok, ive seen two videos of riser releases, andys one was the only one slider down. if you have more please share.
to make this work like you state with the tied down slider:
- the riser has to be tied down with something that is able to bear the load. so a huge portion of modern base risers with a the tape and button or similar system dont fall in that category.
- most people tie down the slider on only one side, you have a 50/50 chance on releasing the side that is not connected and the slider possibly having some positive effect, while in the other 50 you have the same again as if it wasnt tied down in the first place.
- and last but not least, i wouldnt bet any money on if keeping the riser through a tied down slider is a good thing. i really dont know. possibly it slows you down more than completely disconnect due to more area above your head, or it puts the canopy in a steep spiral giving you a higher sinkrate and make you impact not with your feet first. someone really has to try this out from an airplane and log the the sinkrate.

Fwiw i have seen more rigging errors caused by removing sliders/ installing sliders (resulting in injuries) than i have off headings that couldn't be corrected due to a attached slider.

My 2 cents.

The only reason I mention Racers is they are one of the few examples of cross connectors still in use (I suspect you may find more in old military equipment). Even load of the risers helps a canopy to retain its shape, you cannot argue against that. It was invented for rounds but the theory is still sound. The controversy of Racer RSLs is due to rigging errors etc. not its effectiveness as a cross connector. My understanding of cross connectors is they faded due to complexity that was deemed no longer necessary in skydiving. Really need one of the old school guys to chime in.

The few I have seen have been slider up or slider off so useless for this discussion.

Agreed. But what is that load? Also, I do not use the tape as I prefer to lock my slider under the bumpers on the Rapide links. No reason, just what I like, but that would probably increase its holding strength.

Again I agree. I lock down both sides in the interest of symmetry. So this point doesn't bother me.

That's BASE jumping. The decisions are yours to make.

Me too.

Reducing the chance of a rigging error is a very real advantage. No one thinks they will make a mistake, but in the real world, we all make mistakes sooner or later.

Backward facing gopro is severely hindered by slider in slider off jumps

To this angle. If one knows not how to rig and can´t figure out how to pack ones rig for the jump. All bets are off.
Then one is screwed. IMHO if one can not do simple rigging, Simple jumps, are way too risky. So I became a rigger.
Have some no checklist?.
I use a method where i do a task and check it out. Do and check.


Take care,
space.

I totally agree,

however, people still manage to fuck even the most basic things up (I'm looking at you no leg-straps guy).

I'm a simple guy so I have to follow the KISS principle.

Cheers,

Stoney

That is correct IMHO. Rigging errors can complicate.
Take care,
space

yup, i always take it off.
If I don't have the time to remove it and have time to check my work carefully, I don't make the jump until I do have the time.

I have and will jump Slider-Down on occasion,
usually when driving to or from Bridge Day,
but it is always for convenience's sake.

Sewn in risers, then it doesn't matter if youre down or off. I have one rig with normal cutaways just in case im jumping over some kind of fast moving water, or its required by an event, but rarely the case.

As a jumper, youre infinitely more likely to kill yourself than your gear is.

For what its worth, I leave a slider on my slider down rigs. I don't have a great reason for it aside from its what ive always done, and I started in an area that had a combination of up and down jumps, and I didn't want to re-rig constantly. If im switching from slider up to down on a trip with one rig, I don't re-route the brake lines, but that's an argument for another thread.

Yes and perhaps this is the main of the question... before searching if slider off or down will help you in a line twist or in a off heading recovery, the better is to ask ourselves if it is wise to jump slider down in a cliff with some wind...

Personnally I never jump a cliff slider down whatever the wind. Then it is important to know how to recover an off heading by rear risers only (practicing regularly). The fact that there is a the slider down or not will change nothing at all, if you do the right things or not. I thing that less rigging, gives less errors too.

A cross wind for sure will generate a rotate of the canopy and it is really difficult to anticipate how your canopy will open (in which direction). The same, cross winds are like a trap, because they are rolling on the wall and moving differently behind an objet... like a wave.

Jumping with cross wind in a cliff needs to know very well the place, you could have cross wind at the top but not 30m down (I have at home a cliff like that)... and vice versa. The better is not to play... unless you like Russian roulette and hospital.

My 2 cents too

I'm with you. If you use it for both SU/SD config, no reason in my mind to remove it.