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For those that use this pc, what benefits are there compared to traditional shaped pc's?

I'm not using it but I think this is the best PC on the market.
- More stable than any other.
- Stability means that it's getting the canopy out inline so less (almost no more) orientations due to PC.
- it's packing a bit bigger because there is more mesh (not sure if I'm clear on that point)
- it might have a bit less power than a classic one for the same size, not 100% sure of that, and not a big deal as you can just take a bigger one to compensate.
- it costs twice the price of a normal one. It is produced in Vietnam where people are paid 10 to 15 a day, so even it there is more fabric and twice or more the time to make it the price shouldn't have exceed 150. I did not count the cutting time as it is done with a laser cutter.
- instead of paying for black line on a canopy or 300 for a custom wingsuit by a Snatch, but people usually prefer look good than safety

I only jump toxic's, and now they have joined forces you would imagine there will be some sort of hybrid coming out.

The Snatch's extra material should be in the ZP skirt, not the mesh.

That is not making any sense. there is more mesh to make a real cone so the dome on the top is less tight.

Toxic is a classic design with good fabric orientation and better vents.
Snatch has the same with a 3D design.
No reason to buy anymore the Toxic if Marty is part of Squirrel's team.

Just for shits and giggles, here's my 42'' Asylum (~150 jumps) and 42'' Snatch (~40 jumps).

The Snatch's skirt mesh triangle section (each of the 6) measures 24''x24''x17'' (the 17'' is the side sewn to the ZP and is straight) for an area of 190in^2.

The Asylum's mesh skirt has a radius of 19''. Calculating the area for a circle of r=19 is 1,134in^2. Dividing that by 6 = 189in^2.

I might be off by a half inch on the Snatch's measurement and I'm too lazy to email Mike to get the CAD files. But either way they're pretty close.

Check the last photo for the surprise ending. The Asylum was packed in the glass tighter than the Snatch, the Snatch kept coming out because the ZP is very slippery. I'm sure the Asylum has accumulated a bit of dirt but the mesh of the Snatch is much lighter weight and way more slippery.

TL;DR: Mike's snatch is tighter than Marty's.

Nice numbers and good way to compare !
Thank you.
I take back what I said about the size or room of the snatch.

I would have two questions:
- if the radius is 19" usually it makes a 38". For a 42" radius is half so 21"
- The "triangles" are not triangles, the top part is round, not straight. I've the CAD files.

I use snatch 36" for WS jumps and watching my rear Gopro it works very well, I have used a snatc 42" for no slider jumps but compared with my Toxic 42", toxic has no rivals! More force and no minimal sign of PC oscillations! Tested Toxic from B and E many times and it is the best.

Just my 0.001 cent.

I think I will open a new thread for that but WS jumps, tracking jumps, slick jumps, not matter what you are wearing the size of the pilot chut you need depends only on 2 points: The weight of your canopy and the speed when you are pitching.
I will never use a 36" for wingsuit because I'm usually doing a flare a pitching at low speed (under 120km/h ontrack).
36" is IMO for speed over 150km/h.
I have a light Atair 245 canopy.

As I said I really think that the snatch has less power and where is would use a normal 42 I would probably take s 44 Snatch.

why do you choose to use a PC that is less powerful?

Less power at the same size.
Even if i'my not sure of that fact it is not a problem. Just have to take one size up.
The Snatch is the best PC for stability for sure.

yes I understand the less power at the same size
do you think the snatch is the best in all scenarios?

Yes it's what I think.
But best does not means that the others are not working good !
I don't have one myself, I made my own design so I have something easier to make and not as good as a Snatch but with enough stability and efficiency to be just under it.

I stll think that the price is too high and does not make sense. Toxic made in USA is at the same price as Snatch made in Vietnam where the work costs 10 times less.
I don't like when you have to pay more than it should specially for safety.

#1: I measured both from the tape ring where the mesh starts, not the very center. You can add 2'' to the triangle length, they'll still be about the same size.

#2: The top part of the triangle is essentially straight, at least on my 42NR Snatch. It only curves out in the middle by one box on the ZP (~3mm).

Attached is how the mesh part looks like before sewing.
This is not the CAD file but it's like this.

I said you are right about the surfaces, why can't you admit you are wrong about your triangles when I said I made one and I have the CAD files ?

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to be a dick. I was genuinely curious about that this morning since I'd heard that a few times before.

Do you mean the missing 2'' or the triangle being rounded? The ZP edge on mine is almost perfectly straight (http://i.imgur.com/A0kfDNU.jpg), but maybe the mesh that's sewn on is curved. My numbers are probably still wrong, but at least the wine cup test was fairly idiot-proof :)

I believe the cost of the Snatch is so high because of the carbon fiber handle, it might cost as much, if not more than the pc itself.I can't imagine it being much lighter, if at all than a PVC, and even if it is say 15 grams lighter, I don't see that small of weight difference translating into any performance benefits.The Snatch should have PVC as standard and CB as an option for all those Kool kidz who want to stand out.

I would estimate the price of such an handle at 4 maximum.
The higher profit is what is making the price so high.

Of course they're price gouging, after all, they're in business to make money just like everyone else and at the end of the day they should be passing on those Vietnam savings to the customer but like most they don't.

Will all do respect, the reason you can make your cheaper copy of the snatch is because of the research and shared blueprints squirrel gave you I agree the price is stiff, but you are not only paying for the material, noodles, and shipping, you are also supporting further research into the field (you of all people should understand that fact). At least thats what makes me cope with it, also the fact that I'm not a comunist and understanding the fact that people who put effort and their energy into something of a quality deserve every outcome of it! Quality is rare now days....

I would estimate the price of the handle to be closer to 5 or 5 1/4.

https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/...1-00-x-1-115-options

If you buy in large enough quantities it goes down to about $2/in, so about $4 per handle since they are 2 inches long.

The weight is about half of PVC: 8g vs 16g

For short delay slider down, it may not be possible to upsize because larger sizes do not exist.

I'm not making a copy to make my own PCS.
I have my own design.
Making a Snatch would take me almost twice the time of my design.
About the price and the research I agree. You have to pay for it. But that would mean that the R&D for the Snatch would be 30% of its price.
They are just making some good money with it and I don't want to pay for that.
This is not my way of thinking but I would probably be the worst businessman ever because I don't care about making a lot of money.

The Snatch has been the most stable PC that I've used/tested.

I do think that it has less drag force than a comparable size Toxic, so I prefer the Toxic for slider down jumps.

For slider up, I generally open far enough from the object that I'm not overly concerned about PC oscillation/stability, so I often use cheaper pilot chutes. I do own Toxics and Snatches in smaller sizes, but I usually do not take the time to switch the Toxic/Snatch onto the rig I'm jumping, just going with whatever PC is on that rig when making back to back loads. And the difference I've observed is small enough that I personally don't think it's worth the money to buy another pie slice PC for my backup slider up rig.

I would just add that for me having Squirrel in the buisness is good.
Seen from me in Europe I would say that because of (thanks to in my case) Squirrel the prices have raised by about 20% in the last 3-4 years.
It's a bit unique for me, I never saw that before in any buisness.

The critical part for a PC is the first seconde because the force is very low (max 4kg with 48" 46") after it increase rapidely. At 2s we are at 15kg for a 42".

So what it is important to know are the charts force of PC with delay, and very well when we slider down. Add that to much force could generate an off heading too.

But the first point VERY important is the TENSION LOOP... How many knows their tension loop on their own rig? Mine is 2kg and that is enough.

So if your tension loop is 10kg... whatever a Toxic or a Snatch, something wrong could happened to you.

After I join Antoine on the Squirrel prices. Pay $195 for a PC, that is just bling bling. Now it is impossible to have a wingsuit for less than $1000. I paid for my Phantom 9 years ago $700...

thanks for the response, but I don't understand the point you are making.

At 2sec we are at 15kg for a 42? Which brand are you referring too

You should always use the PC with the least pull force that meets your other requirements because it reduces deformation of the pack job during extraction, which yields a (very slightly) lower chance of off heading and malfunction.

Note though, that having sufficient pull force is one of the two primary functions of the PC, so if you are sacrificing that for any reason, I believe you are making a mistake in your priorities.

It's interesting that new wingsuits are quite expensive, but the resale market is horrendous because of the ease of production and availability. I would argue that buying a used wingsuit had never been cheaper. I remember paying full price for a new v3 (I don't remember what they cost new, maybe $1400-1500?), flying it for almost 2 years, and then selling it for $1200. Today you'll be lucky to get half of what you paid New for a 2 year old suit.

I remember when you could buy a new BASE canopy for $1200.

Hilariously, I sometimes see people asking the same $1200 for the same canopy with 10 years and 400 jumps on it--because the price of new canopies has basically doubled.

Is there any table of the PC pull force in correlation to air velocity and pc dimension?

>>Is there any table of the PC pull force in correlation to air velocity and pc dimension?

YES, there is a cool Excel spreadsheet
with formulae and a table, etc. I am
on my laptop and my data is stored
elsewhere but I got on this site so
perhaps some else can share it.

Attached.

There was a thread on DZ.com where they came up, and John Sherman wrote a pretty detailed explanation of why they are wrong. It then all got a bit technical for me to follow

ETA: Here it is http://www.dropzone.com/...atch_force_P3162292/

Thanks!

I've just read them quickly but it looks like they are made using skydiving pcs but i still have to understand the "PC_Manufacture" sheet of the excel file.

Quoting the thread on DZ.com :


I'm surprised that, for example, Adrenalin didn't get this kind of data buy putting thier pcs on a wind tunnel with a dynamometer....

I have some test apparatus and was thinking of testing PC pull forces next (we're currently doing static line systems).

I'll throw the videos up on the SRBA youtube channel if/when we get them done.

I tried to fint the video and test data from Squirrel regarding PC's, from the tests they conducted in the wind tunnel. I can't seem to find it though... Anyone?

Edit to add: seems it use to be an article on base-book.com, but has since been removed.

https://vimeo.com/177922020
https://vimeo.com/177811020
https://vimeo.com/177781852

You right Tom, I suppose we are all OK on that point: the basic is to choose the good one. But I was speaking about tension loop, and this is one of the 2 first links of the chain with PC. All this is to adapt to his personal practice with the most possible thought upstream. But in BASE jumping we can't speak in general but for a precise example in a particular situation.

And yes it will be great to have from all manufacturers the charts of their PC force, as we can hope that one day we will have flight limits characteristic of each wingsuit. In waiting, the charts of pc force by size is a good information and education.

Sweet!

Great research from Squirrel. Would be interesting to see the complete range of sizes and some lower air speeds also. I guess there is an article in the works.