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Injury in AZ
http://abcnews.go.com/...strous-turn-44440835
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Re: [Bealio] Injury in AZ
 
Was that Felix's brother?
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Re: [TransientCW] Injury in AZ
Damn that last surge couldn't have timed itself worse.
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Re: [MattvB91] Injury in AZ
That thing was moving fast when he opened. Does anybody know what canopy, WL, and brake setting?
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Re: [eUrNiCc] Injury in AZ
Or what the winds were.
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Re: [MattvB91] Injury in AZ
MattvB91 wrote:
Damn that last surge couldn't have timed itself worse.

Didn't Adam Rubin die because he surged his canopy into a ledge while turning it around?
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Re: [xnewmanx] Injury in AZ
xnewmanx wrote:
MattvB91 wrote:
Damn that last surge couldn't have timed itself worse.

Didn't Adam Rubin die because he surged his canopy into a ledge while turning it around?

yes.
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Injury in AZ
Adam's canopy surged after the turn, when he released the riser to let it fly. It didn't surge during the turn itself, but rather during the recovery from the turn.
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Re: [eUrNiCc] Injury in AZ
Looks like shallow brake setting to me but I was not there so not sure. There were multiple jumpers using shallow brake settings at the thanksgiving boogie. Don't understand why you would free fall a cliff slider down with shallow brake setting.
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Re: [e.a.hernandez] Injury in AZ
e.a.hernandez wrote:
Looks like shallow brake setting to me but I was not there so not sure. There were multiple jumpers using shallow brake settings at the thanksgiving boogie. Don't understand why you would free fall a cliff slider down with shallow brake setting.

depends on your wing loading: too deep + too light = stall
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Re: [base44] Injury in AZ
base44 wrote:
e.a.hernandez wrote:
Looks like shallow brake setting to me but I was not there so not sure. There were multiple jumpers using shallow brake settings at the thanksgiving boogie. Don't understand why you would free fall a cliff slider down with shallow brake setting.

depends on your wing loading: too deep + too light = stall

As in shallow shallow brakes? Not even the factory deep brake setting?

As for wing loading, I'm loading a Black Jack at .58 right now and I still need deeper than factory brakes. Unless it's Sasha DiGiulian on a 310 with a tailwind, going with shallow brakes on a solid object is silly.

Edited to add: Maybe there are circumstances where you are PCAing and have a distant landing area you need to make or it's short enough that you are popping brakes and going directly to flaring (or not popping brakes and flaring on risers). These are specialty cases.
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Re: [idemallie] Injury in AZ
idemallie wrote:
base44 wrote:
e.a.hernandez wrote:
Looks like shallow brake setting to me but I was not there so not sure. There were multiple jumpers using shallow brake settings at the thanksgiving boogie. Don't understand why you would free fall a cliff slider down with shallow brake setting.

depends on your wing loading: too deep + too light = stall

As in shallow shallow brakes? Not even the factory deep brake setting?

As for wing loading, I'm loading a Black Jack at .58 right now and I still need deeper than factory brakes. Unless it's Sasha DiGiulian on a 310 with a tailwind, going with shallow brakes on a solid object is silly.

Edited to add: Maybe there are circumstances where you are PCAing and have a distant landing area you need to make or it's short enough that you are popping brakes and going directly to flaring (or not popping brakes and flaring on risers). These are specialty cases.

also depends on:

  • the canopy

  • how close you want to be to stall when it opens, and

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    TO: base44

    Is this: Robin Heid BASE #44

    ???
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    Re: [idemallie] Injury in AZ
    idemallie wrote:
    base44 wrote:
    e.a.hernandez wrote:
    Looks like shallow brake setting to me but I was not there so not sure. There were multiple jumpers using shallow brake settings at the thanksgiving boogie. Don't understand why you would free fall a cliff slider down with shallow brake setting.

    depends on your wing loading: too deep + too light = stall

    As in shallow shallow brakes? Not even the factory deep brake setting?

    As for wing loading, I'm loading a Black Jack at .58 right now and I still need deeper than factory brakes. Unless it's Sasha DiGiulian on a 310 with a tailwind, going with shallow brakes on a solid object is silly.

    Edited to add: Maybe there are circumstances where you are PCAing and have a distant landing area you need to make or it's short enough that you are popping brakes and going directly to flaring (or not popping brakes and flaring on risers). These are specialty cases.

    I have an outlaw 226 and I weight 140-145 naked and use the shallow brakes for slider down because the factory deep brakes open close to a stall with no foreward speed and I don't like that.
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    Re: [wasatchrider] Injury in AZ
    Didn't Squirrel make changes to the Outlaw brake setting for this reason?

    Eh, whatever, maybe I'm over-generalizing.
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    Re: [wasatchrider] Injury in AZ
    Perhaps you would like that if you were facing the cliff.
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    Re: [bluhdow] Injury in AZ
    bluhdow wrote:
    Perhaps you would like that if you were facing the cliff.

    not when your canopy surges when you release the brakes. Ive had my fair share of staring at cliffs and like my settings a certain way but to each their own.
    I use deep brakes for my BJ but the factory is not as deep.
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    Re: [wasatchrider] Injury in AZ
    I think Tom would know more than me here, but I suspect that some jumpers actually wind up with CDB settings that are more shallow than factory.
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    Re: [bluhdow] Injury in AZ
    Yep light people on big canopies
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    Re: [wasatchrider] Injury in AZ
    The canopy won't surge forward on toggles if they are released properly. This can be a bit of a misconception. That surge that is usually seen during toggle release is caused by the toggles being released without pressure on the control line. If all that line that is stowed away is suddenly released without being tensioned, it will result in a surge.

    Think about it this way; your canopy, prior to the release of the toggles, is flying in some state of braked flight. Now what happens when it goes from that braked flight to full flight immediately? It will surge. The same thing happens if you are flying in half brakes. What happens in that scenario when you aggressively raise your arms up? The canopy will surge and dive.

    The fix to this is proper toggle release technique. Instead of just grabbing toggles and pulling them free of the velcro, you pull the toggles down to the point where there is no slack in the lines and from there, push the toggles out and away from the risers (arms outstretched and that point in the control stroke that matches your brake setting).

    What this does is maintain steady flight and will minimize altitude loss and prevent a surge. It is something that should be practiced on every jump. Your go-to stressed response needs to the action that allows you to fix a problem, not one that creates it's own problems.

    The key above all else with it is understanding your gear and environment: your brakes, your control line length (toggle setting), your weight, your specific canopy, the object, the weather.

    I see people argue all day long over deep vs. shallow but at the end of the day, either extreme is a problem. If your brakes are too deep, your canopy will become unresponsive to riser inputs, slow to turn, and likely to lose altitude from sink. The extreme end can include depressurizing and backsurging. It will also be problematic in tailwinds and can lose excessive altitude as it transitions into flight. Couple this with improperly setup toggles and a lazy toggle release, and the problems compound.

    The other extreme is just as problematic. Extremely shallow brakes cause poor inflation with the canopy diving forward and seeking. A canopy in an uncontrolled dive is a canopy you are *not* in control of.

    A canopy will need some kind of forward movement/ energy to respond to control inputs but that doesn't mean it should be diving at everything it opens towards. Extremely shallow brakes tend to cause excessive altitude loss, just like extremely deep brakes. The problem is that your movement towards an object is much greater. If you couple this with a poor toggle release, you will only magnify the surge and guarantee a hard wall strike.

    It's all about balance. Find the sweet spot where your gear works for YOU. Manufacturers have done a good job on figuring out that approximate point. That is why you buy a canopy with your ideal wingloading and jump it in the way it was designed.

    The caveat to that is that EVERY canopy (manufacturer, model, size, DOM, wear) will behave slightly differently. It isn't a black and white of this manufacturer does this or they do that. It changes. You have to be aware of that. If you are testing your gear in a sketch environment, you are effectively removing the margin of error that needs to exist in every jump, especially a test jump.
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    Re: [matt_f_001] Injury in AZ
    Matt thanks for your response I did not read it all probably really good info for newer jumpers when I release my toggles I don't just let them up.
    My canopy opens in a stall and surges forward no matter how I release them.
    Never have a problem on my bj and never had a problem on my outlaw since I stwitched to shallow brakes.
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    Re: [matt_f_001] Injury in AZ
    Bueller...Bueller...Bueller...