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Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
I just got home yesterday from a wonderful 8 day trip to the Valley. And then I read about whats happening in Chamonix. Ive seen the behavior and attitudes of many jumpers over the last several years and it sickens me. Its no surprise to see a temporary wingsuit ban while they sort things out. I'm sure this is only the beginning of the end for many of the great locations throughout Europe.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Jumpers royally fucked up the opportunity for legal jumps a few decades ago in Yosemite. Could you imagine what today's generation would do? Make no mistake about it, they would shit all over the opportunity for legal jumps in Yosemite and would wreck it faster than your Mom's box on a Saturday night.

It is a shame, but it is reality. The "its all about me" attitude is supremely evident in BASE today and Ive largely seen it amongst a good majority of the wingsuit crowd. I do not support any movement for legal jumping in Yosemite and never will because I know what the outcome will be and the fallout will only make things harder for those of us that do enjoy our time there. I'd rather keep on carrying on with how things are now than deal with a shit show. If you're not convinced, just take a look whats been happening in Europe and I think you will agree.
base44
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Re: [Toggle] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Toggle wrote:
I just got home yesterday from a wonderful 8 day trip to the Valley. And then I read about whats happening in Chamonix. Ive seen the behavior and attitudes of many jumpers over the last several years and it sickens me. Its no surprise to see a temporary wingsuit ban while they sort things out. I'm sure this is only the beginning of the end for many of the great locations throughout Europe.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Jumpers royally fucked up the opportunity for legal jumps a few decades ago in Yosemite. Could you imagine what today's generation would do? Make no mistake about it, they would shit all over the opportunity for legal jumps in Yosemite and would wreck it faster than your Mom's box on a Saturday night.

It is a shame, but it is reality. The "its all about me" attitude is supremely evident in BASE today and Ive largely seen it amongst a good majority of the wingsuit crowd. I do not support any movement for legal jumping in Yosemite and never will because I know what the outcome will be and the fallout will only make things harder for those of us that do enjoy our time there. I'd rather keep on carrying on with how things are now than deal with a shit show. If you're not convinced, just take a look whats been happening in Europe and I think you will agree.

Sorry, no. The NPS and USPA designed a system that could not succeed, and the NPS superintendent at the time is ON RECORD explaining how they had to create a destined-to-fail system so that "our management ban will stick" (Audubon Magazine, November 1980).

The NPS acted in bad faith, period. Jumpers did themselves no favors with some of them practicing the "it's all about me" attitude, but even 100 percent perfect behavior would not have mattered because the fix was in.

That correction aside, I pretty much agree with you about legalizing jumping in Yosemite -- and that's a hard thing to say because I've been deeply involved since 1979 in trying to open the national parks to BASE.

Having said that, however, my efforts and those of the ABP were focused not so much on Yosemite but on other NPS units where jumping could be more easily integrated because the cliff access is much harder and often technical, and therefore filters out a lot of the yayhoos. The ABP always said "smaller, out-of-the-way units first, Yosemite last" for the precise reasons you mention.

Finally, "today's generation" is not so much different than that first wave of city-geek skydivers who descended on Yosemite thinking it was a skydiving boogie venue, and it was in fact USPA executive director Bill Ottley and USPA itself that encouraged that conduct in its August 1980 Parachutist with a story headlined "El Capitan Opens for Skydiving," as if it was an effing amusement park.

Then it said "all" that was required was USPA membership, a D license, a hard helmet, and a square main (round reserves were still the standard then).

Notice what was missing?

How to act in a national park.

How to act in the backcountry.

So to circle back, yes, the jumpers did contribute to the "management ban" but even if they did everything right the NPS would have shut it down because it didn't want to be bothered, and it had an already-long history of shutting down adventure athletes (for example, they banned climbing from El Cap and on other big walls in the system for years for being "too dangerous").

Congratulations on your trip. I jumped there twice, once legally, once outlaw, and visited multiple other times. It is indeed a singular place that should not just be respected but revered.
Mitchpee
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Re: [Toggle] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Toggle wrote:
I just got home yesterday from a wonderful 8 day trip to the Valley. And then I read about whats happening in Chamonix. Ive seen the behavior and attitudes of many jumpers over the last several years and it sickens me. Its no surprise to see a temporary wingsuit ban while they sort things out. I'm sure this is only the beginning of the end for many of the great locations throughout Europe.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Jumpers royally fucked up the opportunity for legal jumps a few decades ago in Yosemite. Could you imagine what today's generation would do? Make no mistake about it, they would shit all over the opportunity for legal jumps in Yosemite and would wreck it faster than your Mom's box on a Saturday night.

It is a shame, but it is reality. The "its all about me" attitude is supremely evident in BASE today and Ive largely seen it amongst a good majority of the wingsuit crowd. I do not support any movement for legal jumping in Yosemite and never will because I know what the outcome will be and the fallout will only make things harder for those of us that do enjoy our time there. I'd rather keep on carrying on with how things are now than deal with a shit show. If you're not convinced, just take a look whats been happening in Europe and I think you will agree.

No offense but until you get busted in Yosemite this opinion is meaningless. I'd listen if you had been through the process of being fucked by the illogical court process. Everyone wants it kept to themselves until it goes wrong.

That being said. Yes, there is a serious problem with the state of our community. A big problem is how there's a general feeling of entitlement and elation above "normal" people. A lot of this is the constant attention we get in social settings for just being a base jumper or wingsuit pilot. It builds and fortifies a subconscious sense of elation if not regularly questioned. We should be clear on something as a community: the fact that we regularly fall off cliffs for fun (especially ones 15 minutes or less walking from a motorized lift up) does not put us in any sort of higher social position in the human race. In fact we have to be twice as considerate given the fact that very few understand or relate to our way of thinking. We love to be loud dress crazy and be "individuals"...and that's perfectly okay, but we need to understand all this needs to be coupled with humility. It's a difficult thing to do because of how easy it is to sell footage, obtain "sponsors", or be an "athlete". Looking around, some of the most influential people in this sport to me are the ones who are not on a payroll, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with having a payroll. Again it comes down to being conscious of how you act and what you do with the influence of your "sponsors".

Next, what's the point? Everyone is a keyboard warrior and constantly ripping other people apart. What this community needs is more people going out of their way to teach others how to act. Show people why they are being disrespectful, have meaningful conversations with people, and act as an example. So many of us sit in the Horner in our own corners smiling but regularly complaining about others. There's a good way to talk to people. No, we are not going to get through to everyone. So how do we highlight to people the difference between most people acting responsibly and the other 10%.

Let's come up with solutions and talk about how we progress. These boards are full of negative and pointless banter. If you care about this sport then let's do something. I'm always down to talk about solutions and options for bettering situations. Anyone who ever wants to chat feel free to call me or email whatever. These boards are too impersonal to get anything real done.

-Mitch Potter
base44
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Re: [Mitchpee] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Mitchpee wrote:
Toggle wrote:
I just got home yesterday from a wonderful 8 day trip to the Valley. And then I read about whats happening in Chamonix. Ive seen the behavior and attitudes of many jumpers over the last several years and it sickens me. Its no surprise to see a temporary wingsuit ban while they sort things out. I'm sure this is only the beginning of the end for many of the great locations throughout Europe.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Jumpers royally fucked up the opportunity for legal jumps a few decades ago in Yosemite. Could you imagine what today's generation would do? Make no mistake about it, they would shit all over the opportunity for legal jumps in Yosemite and would wreck it faster than your Mom's box on a Saturday night.

It is a shame, but it is reality. The "its all about me" attitude is supremely evident in BASE today and Ive largely seen it amongst a good majority of the wingsuit crowd. I do not support any movement for legal jumping in Yosemite and never will because I know what the outcome will be and the fallout will only make things harder for those of us that do enjoy our time there. I'd rather keep on carrying on with how things are now than deal with a shit show. If you're not convinced, just take a look whats been happening in Europe and I think you will agree.

No offense but until you get busted in Yosemite this opinion is meaningless. I'd listen if you had been through the process of being fucked by the illogical court process. Everyone wants it kept to themselves until it goes wrong.

That being said. Yes, there is a serious problem with the state of our community. A big problem is how there's a general feeling of entitlement and elation above "normal" people. A lot of this is the constant attention we get in social settings for just being a base jumper or wingsuit pilot. It builds and fortifies a subconscious sense of elation if not regularly questioned. We should be clear on something as a community: the fact that we regularly fall off cliffs for fun (especially ones 15 minutes or less walking from a motorized lift up) does not put us in any sort of higher social position in the human race. In fact we have to be twice as considerate given the fact that very few understand or relate to our way of thinking. We love to be loud dress crazy and be "individuals"...and that's perfectly okay, but we need to understand all this needs to be coupled with humility. It's a difficult thing to do because of how easy it is to sell footage, obtain "sponsors", or be an "athlete". Looking around, some of the most influential people in this sport to me are the ones who are not on a payroll, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with having a payroll. Again it comes down to being conscious of how you act and what you do with the influence of your "sponsors".

Next, what's the point? Everyone is a keyboard warrior and constantly ripping other people apart. What this community needs is more people going out of their way to teach others how to act. Show people why they are being disrespectful, have meaningful conversations with people, and act as an example. So many of us sit in the Horner in our own corners smiling but regularly complaining about others. There's a good way to talk to people. No, we are not going to get through to everyone. So how do we highlight to people the difference between most people acting responsibly and the other 10%.

Let's come up with solutions and talk about how we progress. These boards are full of negative and pointless banter. If you care about this sport then let's do something. I'm always down to talk about solutions and options for bettering situations. Anyone who ever wants to chat feel free to call me or email whatever. These boards are too impersonal to get anything real done.

-Mitch Potter

All your points are sound, but I would say this:

It's not so much about the 10 percent acting like idiots... it's the carnage -- especially when they start hitting houses.

The real key factor here is the body count: It's past 30 KIA so far this year and IIRC almost every single one was a flying body bag, and the vast majority of those were terrain flying -- low terrain flying.

I have told this story before but it bears repeating because history is repeating itself:

Circa 1976, The Gulch in Casa Grande Arizona had 14 fatalities in two years because the culture of the place said it was cool to pull low -- low as in 500 feet routinely. Like terrain flying, it was all good until it wasn't and then you were dead. This led one of the jumpers there, Skratch Garrison, to observe:

"Pulling low is a rush but it just isn't practical."*

Fast forward to today and the phrase is just as useful, with one word change:

"Flying low is a rush but it just isn't practical."

That pretty much sums up the whole situation right there.

With the low pulling, the culture changed to the point that it is no longer cool to pull low on a skydive -- it's just stupid -- and until the same culture change happens in wingsuiting, the carnage will continue and the restrictions will increase.

The bottom line is: Just because you can doesn't mean you should... especially when non-participants have to deal with (and in many cases pay for) the bloody consequences of your bad judgment.




* The Black Death culture glorified at the Gulch also led to the attached photo.
the hand.jpg
Mitchpee
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Re: [base44] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
I haven't noticed any culture of pulling low being cool in my personal experience.

What I see is that people pulling low don't mean to do it but it is usually a miscalculation in which the human brain hasn't really been trained enough to react within. IE tracking in the valley people HAVE to track to the road on high ultimate and fixate on it so much they run themselves into a small margin. Wing suiting is not knowing your glide to the LZ usually because of "winging it" on a new object.

This is all margins. Most deaths are not caused by pull time but minutes before anyone jumps. Making mistakes in exit size margins, terrain glide calculation, and ability to perform flying well in an extremely short window of time that takes more than just wingsuit skydiving to accomplish consciousness in.
base44
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Re: [Mitchpee] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Mitchpee wrote:
I haven't noticed any culture of pulling low being cool in my personal experience.

that's because it went from cool to stupid long before you started jumping... :-)


What I see is that people pulling low don't mean to do it but it is usually a miscalculation in which the human brain hasn't really been trained enough to react within. IE tracking in the valley people HAVE to track to the road on high ultimate and fixate on it so much they run themselves into a small margin. Wing suiting is not knowing your glide to the LZ usually because of "winging it" on a new object.

Again, the pulling low reference is only about 1976 skydiving, not 2016 BASE jumping... the point is, pulling at 500 feet on a skydive and flying a meter or 2 over terrain is a rush, but it just isn't practical... and until wingsuiters grok that in its fullness the way skydivers did 40 years ago, the carnage will continue.


This is all margins. Most deaths are not caused by pull time but minutes before anyone jumps. Making mistakes in exit size margins, terrain glide calculation, and ability to perform flying well in an extremely short window of time that takes more than just wingsuit skydiving to accomplish consciousness in.

Again, pull time culture and practices 40 years ago caused a rash of skydiving fatalities in a short period of time, and the community fortunately learned from that and adjusted its culture and practices accordingly. So far, that has not happened with flying low in wingsuits today.
hjumper33
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Re: [Toggle] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Yosemite has always been a tourist attraction. If you look at its history, it was a tourist trap long before it was a national park. Jumping will not be legalized in Yosemite because there is no benefit at all to the NPS. If they could ban climbing, they would, but it would be virtually impossible at this point. They have too many visitors already, and have begun limiting entrances on busy days.
base570
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Re: [Mitchpee] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Mitch Potter, you always seem to have wise words. I think I like you! Smile
RickHarrison
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Re: [base44] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
The main reason people like us started skydiving and then BASE jumping is how much we loved, or needed the extra adrenaline we don't get in our normal lives. There may be other reasons as well, the beauty of cliffs, etc. but anyone who says they don't do it for the rush is lying or dangerously ignorant. That said, some jumpers will be tempted to either pull or fly low in order to get the rush we felt when we first started. It's amazing how quickly we can get used to or bored with doing the same thing so we feel the need to push it a little further to get the rush or to feel satisfied about the jump. It is the nature of our sport to get that feeling again. Problem is, to do it, we have to push ourselves to a place where there is no margin for error. We're humans, we will always have error and nowadays with the internet videos, wing suit proxy flying is so cool that newbies are getting in just to learn wing suit BASE without the time in the air to develop enough survival instincts. Like the early 70's when relative work gained acceptance and the early folks pushed the limits beyond what was rational and the sport paid for it until the culture changed. Skydivers had the "advantage" that we had help regulating the opening altitude by official bodies that could ground us like being banned from a USPA dropzone with the blessing of the FAA. BASE has no such official monitor so it is up to the BASE leaders to try to convince the players that common sense needs to prevail or we will lose many of the legal sites. Skydiving records and techniques continued to improve greatly without continuing the culture of low pulls and wing suiting can do the same. There are several organizations with influence over the wing suit communities that have some of the most influential jumpers. It's time these organizations and the leaders start trying to establish a culture of flying higher and respecting the sport and protecting others right to have legal sites. When BASE was small, we were a pretty tight brotherhood, but now I wonder. If the carnage continues, it's bad for all BASE jumpers not just the wing suiters. I've been jumping for over 44 years and have seen these changes. It's time for leaders to take control and set some better examples.
Rick Harrison
Director, USBA
BASE 38, D 3736, FB 97
StealthyB
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Re: [RickHarrison] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Hi Rick, we have never met, although I have jumped with your brother. I appreciate that you are still keeping the faith and actively keeping the #'s alive which I think is very important and pertinent, USPA keeps license #'s up to date but BASE isn"t an official entity so there is no official organization to keep this up to date, Thank You!
BASE is a bit of an oxymoron, unregulated but a little like skydiving was 30 yrs ago, a fringe, extreme, sport.
I think is it very important that we keep track of ourselves since there is no national or international entity to do this for us.
This is why I feel the BASE # awards, and a look so the BASE fatality list are so important to our sport.
Also Rick, I have known #44 for 35 years, he is, like it or not an iconic part of this sport, I have a tremendous amount of respect for his participation, he will always deserve to be heard, no matter what, enough said,
Regards, B.
BigfcknG
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Re: [StealthyB] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Bring back localism. Militant localism. It works in surfing. It could easily apply in BASE. Some things are worth protecting. And actions usually speak much louder than words.
verticalflyer
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Re: [BigfcknG] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
I just returned from 2 weeks in Yosemite and whilst up at Glacier Point got talking to a Park Ranger. She was talking to a tourist about BASE and the following was said: Yeah Dean Potter and Graham Hunt where both killed this year BASE jumping, Tourist: I thought it was illegal here, Ranger: Yes but we turned a blind eye to those guys as they new what they were doing we even used to take shots of them on many occasions. So localism clearly applies to the rangers view of who is competent and who is not. As you say it works for surfers and might curb the current look at me culture that is prevalent. The ranger then explained that the night the fatal jump was made the weather was not good and was deemed a very bad decision as the winds were highly variable.
BigfcknG
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Re: [verticalflyer] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Im here to tell you bud, when people step out of line down under, they get a talking to. It's a very small community and it works. Make people realise their mistakes and they are far less likely to repeat it. Moan about it to your friends yet say nothing to the offender and nothing is going to change.
hjumper33
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Re: [BigfcknG] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Sadly, the locals are all but gone in the valley. The new crew flying there now has little respect for what came before them, jumping in the middle of the day, landing in secret landings that we once waited until it was almost too dark to be safe to make sure it wasn't discovered by Rangers. But now I'm just an old man yelling at clouds with a bunch of dead friends.
BigfcknG
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Re: [hjumper33] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Sad indeed brother...... Ethics are a thing of the past. Instant gratification is the priority now.
Colm
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Re: [BigfcknG] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
localism can mean different things to different people in different places.

when i hear "localism" i think of Lunada Bay CA, where assholes who deserve to eat shit and die, make life suck for everyone else, in public waters. localism is short sighted, leading to more problems in the long term.

now when you say "localism" maybe it's what i think of as "local influence," where locals guide people toward making decisions, with positive and negative consequences, and you give them chances to correct themselves. that seems more in line with your post but i could be wrong.
gnarlysquirrel
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Re: [hjumper33] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
hjumper33 wrote:
Sadly, the locals are all but gone in the valley. The new crew flying there now has little respect for what came before them, jumping in the middle of the day, landing in secret landings that we once waited until it was almost too dark to be safe to make sure it wasn't discovered by Rangers. But now I'm just an old man yelling at clouds with a bunch of dead friends.

Sounds like a bunch of day blazing clowns
jasonnever
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Re: [hjumper33] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
That place is a dump anyway!
surfers98
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Re: [BigfcknG] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Localism in surfing rarely works any more. The original idea was that you had to earn your spot in a lineup by being humble and putting in the time to gain locals' respect. If you showed up out of the blue you'd get vibed out of the water. Now, there are just way too many people surfing to be deterred by stern looks and rough words.

What Colm said about guidance can be true, but is usually ex post facto. As in: a kook runs another surfer over and then gets told what he was doing was dangerous after the fact.

As for the 'lack of actual locals' issue in BASE, localism works when you have a cohesive group, sharing norms. If you hadn't noticed, BASE jumpers have rather disparate feelings about pretty much everything. With a lack of consensus, it's tough to vibe jumpers into changing their behaviour.
TransientCW
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Re: [surfers98] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Though there's some real fun there, could you imagine how many jackasses would get caught up in those bigass trees on the talus and around the bottom of the big guy? seriously, god forbid they legalized jumps in the valley it would be a fucking shitshow
BigfcknG
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Re: [Colm] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Exactly what I meant. Going up to jumpers who haven't spoken to locals first and punching them in the face is a long way off what I was thinking.

Our local scene is blessed with a shit ton of bad ass objects in a fairly large spread of land. We have a cohesive core group with experience ranging in 1 year to almost 20. Between us we communicate regularly and help people understand the best way to stay under the radar. Unfortunately in other places down here the new school mentality of recognition and social media stardom trumps site preservation and ethics. If that were to happen at our local objects you'd soon be a social leper.
RickHarrison
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Re: [StealthyB] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Hey Stealthy, not sure where you got the idea I was disagreeing with 44 but I've known him since at least 83 and was his General Counsel with the ABP. We were both in China in 2012 as judges in the first WWL wingsuit grand prix. I totally agree that at some point, the adrenaline rush is not practical in the long term. After several of the guys I met in 2012 died in wing suits, I told a lot of folks that it's the nature of the sport to pull low once and awhile for the rush or to fly a low line, but when you do, make sure it's well planned and thought out so there are fewer unexpected surprises. BUT, if you make a practice of pushing it on a lot of jumps, it will catch you. If you add the super sophisticated nature of wing suits coming out, there needs to be tighter emphasis on making sure jumpers have enough experience prior using them in BASE. Same shit happened when 0 porosity canopies came into skydiving. Newbies with enough money and 100 jumps bought super fast canopies, like giving a guy who just learned to ride a Vespa, a 1300 CC Kawasaki rice rocket. Since then, in skydiving, more fatalities happen under fully deployed canopies than from malfunctions and the trend has never reversed. It's simple, walk before you can run. 44 clearly agrees with this and I agree with his comments. The problem is, how to do it. If the leaders in the wing suit community and the main manufacturers develop some common sense guidelines about experience and certain wing suits at certain cliffs and promote the safer practices, it will help. Problem is enforcement and always will be when it comes to the narcissistic know it all novice. In that case, Darwin will handle it, but the rest of us pay when it happens. As far as Yosemite is concerned, yes I believe the NPS set up the experiment to fail, mainly by not broadcasting widely that only a few permits would be given out each day. They knew when skydivers came thousands of miles to jump El Cap but couldn't get a permit, they would likely jump anyway and that is what happened. Nick D also knows this so I think 44 is right on this point as well.
jeanmw
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Re: [gnarlysquirrel] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
gnarlysquirrel wrote:
hjumper33 wrote:
Sadly, the locals are all but gone in the valley. The new crew flying there now has little respect for what came before them, jumping in the middle of the day, landing in secret landings that we once waited until it was almost too dark to be safe to make sure it wasn't discovered by Rangers. But now I'm just an old man yelling at clouds with a bunch of dead friends.

Sounds like a bunch of day blazing clowns

I think you mean day blazing cunts
GreggB
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Re: [jeanmw] Why Jumping Should Never Be Legal in Yosemite
Will you guys kindly tell the NPS you've given up on BASE in Yosemite so they might let us speedfly there?Tongue