Basejumper.com - archive

Incidents

Shortcut
Post deleted by alygator
 
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16
alygator wrote:
No comment...
http://www.ledauphine.com/...un-wingsuiter-se-tue
And last weeks an american guy crashed with nothing out in the forest from the Aiguille, alive but in coma at last news.

Translated: French to English

Chamonix: a wingsuiter kills himself by hitting a building

This afternoon, a wingsuiter died in Chamonix. The victim crashed into the rear of a building of new housing, still unoccupied, in the area of ​​the station Montenvers, near the city center. The shock was heard by several witnesses. The accident did not make another victim. The police are currently on site.
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16
Would someone with more details please PM me? I'm fairly certain it's a friend based upon vague facebook posts, but it sounded like he's stable?
Shortcut
Post deleted by alygator
 
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16
Thanks!
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Seriously??? Pretty damn offensive .
Shortcut
Re: [basehoundsam] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Agreed. Kindly inform said jumper to choose a less conspicuous impact point next time.
Shortcut
Re: Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
If someone knows name of that russian guy please PM me.
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Chamonix is the new Lauterbrunnen.
Shortcut
Re: [BASE1817] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Not true, everyone knows you spend your first season in lauterbrunnen and then go to chamonix your second!
Shortcut
Re: [hjumper33] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
I'm just glad silly season is over and I get to enjoy a beautiful fall jumping in the valley.

Nothing else matters.

Smile
Shortcut
Re: [Sass_III] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Ratmir Nagimyanov. He has got a new rig (LD3) at his base-trip
Shortcut
Re: [Slavik] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Does any body know what happened?

BSBD bro...
Shortcut
Re: [Ooomph] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
This was not a proximity line fatality. This was a failure/inability to deploy after safely arriving at a normal deployment area above a standard LZ.

Inspection of impact site, combined with non-jumper witness account, indicates controlled flight to impact.
No clues to indicate why.
Was wearing camera, but local authorities could not find SD card.

Family and Russian consulate are confirmed notified.
Shortcut
Re: [Slavik] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
This guy?
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Yes. He was pretty current and this was not his first or second season proxy flying. He had somewhere around a 1000 basejumps and maybe 12 or so years doing it.
Shortcut
Re: [REDAKTOR] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate that this specific incident was from a new wingsuit pilot, more a comment on a lot of people jumping in chamonix with low experience this year. Bad week for the Russians :(
Shortcut
Re: [alygator] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
I don’t know much about W/S BASE – just never developed interest in these flying body bags – but I did know Ratmir personally and while I cannot say that we were super-close, this tragedy resonates with me and members of my family who knew him personally as well. Therefore I would like to contribute to this thread. Here is something that I feel could be important in trying to understand what happened.

This is my rough translation of a social media post Ratmir wrote on September 18, 2016:

Ratmir_via_vk.com wrote:
“…Flying over the rocky river. By the way, I do not recommend to make such flights without special training. Overall right now, the mood amongst BASE jumpers in Chamonix is uneasy. During my most recent trip here, three month ago, we would get up to jump as if it was a celebration. Now everything has changed, while I was away, many famous BASE jumpers have died.

Just as in the past, the valley gets jumped, you can meet 10-15 people on exit at any given time. In general, people have different mindsets, but overall, the collective mood is lacking the fun it was full of in the past. One of my local mates is really upset. He lost four friends just this season, two of which died in front of his eyes. Once I met David Reader’s parents in the landing zone, he was a wind-tunnel world champion and he died recently while proximity-flying in Chamonix.

These cases and the fact that many of my friends have stopped flying low proximity lines makes me think about what development path I should take from this point onwards and whether those low flights actually make sense. And here are the answers I arrived at:

1. First of all, you get maximum emotional hit on your first flight, the second one is less emotionally charged. Third and fourth flights give away almost no emotions, you perform like a machine;

2. Secondly, it is no longer cool or fashionable. Approximately 10-15 years ago it was considered cool amongst a certain cast of BASE jumpers to open really low, get hit with adrenalin by those low openings – I know because I did it a few times myself. But those times are long gone, nobody opens low any more because it makes no sense, the risk is too great and it pays no dividends. I think that low proximity will follow suite, I believe that in 3-5 years there will be very few people flying that low and people would be looking back to our time saying: can you believe people were flying so low back then and thought it was cool?

3. Rules of the game. When you are flying at 250km/h at just 2-3 meters above the terrain, it is difficult for you to see all of the obstacles, you are tunnel-visioned, you have to know the line off by heart, and if you come across an obstacle which you have not considered, you would either not see it at all or would not be able to react to it. Here is another case – if you are flying next to a cliff face, you could miscalculate side wind at this particular height because the wind up on the exit point and down at the LZ could be null but at that exact spot up on the face there is a right hander blowing you into the rock face while you are carving at that point you understand that you cannot easily alter your angle of attack. I came across all these challenges in the field, I studied the rules of the game , ever-expanding my list of bullet points. And the more challenging the jump, the more rules you need to be aware of. While you are playing the game fault-free, the jumps are not dangerous, but as soon as you make a mistake, the game turns to Russian Roulette – maybe nothing will happen of it and you will keep on flying but if you get a live round in the chamber you will crash and die or will suffer serious injuries.

4. Where to now – there are several disciplines which allow for safe jumping, for chasing new experiences and new highs. For example, there are the starts – you can work on how far you can fly away within the first 200m, a great sporting challenge. Elements of acrobatics – back-flying, corkscrew, 360 – all of these maneuvers can be carried across into BASE jumping, can be performed at safe altitude and can be a lot of fun. Flocking, when you are flying as close as possible to each other without hugging the terrain is totally mind blowing , everyone enjoys these. Flyby – a close flight past something, like the Ingush Towers¹, for example, this is, in principle, quite safe – you just pick a point and fly past it.

And so this is the point of safe jumping – playing by the rules, following the rules and trying not to make mistakes. So these are the thoughts that popped up after I achieved what I planned six years ago. #baseguru #aviasales #adidasoutdoor #phoenixfly…”

¹msk: a jump that Ratmir was very proud of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCqjX9xx8qE


It should also be noted that Ratmir had a bit of “Russian Jeb Corliss” reputation amongst the Russian BASE community. Probably because he was in the media a lot. And probably because he was taking active steps in trying to commercialise, slash – monetise his hobby slash sport.

His commercial activities in the sport included teaching FJC (which caused some controversy as he was taking FJC students to cliffs in Crimea and Ton Sai) as well as selling his videos.

Ratmir has recently sold the rights to a number of his W/S flight videos to international media networks. Further to that, he struck a deal with a discount airline fare website to carry their logos on his W/S wings and on his rig. As I understand, he was flying this new gear with sponsors’ logos during his last Chamonix trip.

He was very current and has flown technical lines rather confidently (to my non-W/S eye at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KALrgtERp9g

Personal opinion: it could be argued that Ratmir was working up towards certain professional skill level for a number of years, taking lessons and tuition from skilled, internationally recognised proxy W/S flyers. He took his time and took baby steps, stretching his W/S BASE learning curve over a 6 year period. As evident from his post, however, once he reached his skill level milestones, he felt doubt. It could be because he felt the upper bound of his skill/ability. Could be something else. We will never know. What we do know is that after writing the above post in late September, he returned to Chamonix in October for more.
Shortcut
Post deleted by almosupremecommander
 
Shortcut
Re: [almosupremecommander] Chamonix 03.10.16
Totally inappropriate!
You sir are the sick basard.

Show some respect.
Shortcut
Re: [odeseni] Chamonix 03.10.16
Copied from a deleted thread:

shivablu wrote:
http://www.corriere.it/...5-fd9af6958684.shtml

Chamonix: A russian wingsuit base jumper died for impacting a house on Monday.
The name is released on all italian media so far.
Shortcut
Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Crash site http://imgur.com/a/jVMHU
Shortcut
Re: [gh1977] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
But is the house okay? Should we start a gofundme for it?
Shortcut
Re: [gh1977] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
So what happened here (other than the obvious smashing into a residential home)? Is this town situated in an area where WSers can attempt flybys then continue on down into the valley? Or are these buildings higher up the mountains near the exit? I've been to LB and the mental picture of the valley and town is popping up, but this area has to be laid out different?

This really sucks for the jumper's family and friends for their loss as well as the local BASE community in Chamonix. Sounds like the French authorities are pissed about this one?

BLACK DEATH 2016, first we get a live FB feed of a WS fatality now another cratering into a house.

What's next???
Shortcut
Re: [gh1977] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
In reply to:
Crash site http://imgur.com/a/jVMHU
FTFY: http://imgur.com/a/4pnZa
Shortcut
Re: [gh1977] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
gh1977 wrote:
Crash site http://imgur.com/a/jVMHU
not funny
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
It gets the point across.
Shortcut
Re: [hookitt] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
This sucks for many reasons. I'm curious as to where he actually did impact. There aren't a lot of houses in the area around Montenvers from what I recall.
Shortcut
Re: [surfers98] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
I think that's what the shadow shows
Shortcut
Re: [surfers98] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
From what I understand, it's one of the technical buildings for the Montenvers (and not a recently finished chalet as mentioned in another report). There is a small parking lot for employees and a cluster of buildings which you access from across the cemetery.
Shortcut
Re: [nattfodd] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
why does no one talk about how the incident could actually happen? from what i understand he impacted with nothing out at the end of a "safe" flight. how comes that someone with his experience (whatever you may think of him, fact is he did it for quite a while with lots of jumps...) fails to pull the PC?
Shortcut
Re: [flooooooo] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
remember what happened with jimmy and the whole PC thing?
shit happens
Shortcut
Re: [flooooooo] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
flooooooo wrote:
why does no one talk about how the incident could actually happen? from what i understand he impacted with nothing out at the end of a "safe" flight. how comes that someone with his experience (whatever you may think of him, fact is he did it for quite a while with lots of jumps...) fails to pull the PC?
He was apparently jumping with a new wingsuit rig, does anybody know if he has jumped it before? Maybe he just didnt have the muscle memory to find the PC before he ran out of time...
Shortcut
Re: [Lukasz_Se] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
He was not jumping his new rig on this jump.

It seems we may never know for sure what happened.
Shortcut
Re: [unclecharlie95] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Did he had flysight in that fligth?
Shortcut
Re: [flooooooo] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
flooooooo wrote:
why does no one talk about how the incident could actually happen? from what i understand he impacted with nothing out at the end of a "safe" flight. how comes that someone with his experience (whatever you may think of him, fact is he did it for quite a while with lots of jumps...) fails to pull the PC?


... so you talk!!
Shortcut
Re: [unclecharlie95] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Really? He came to France to get his new rig and was not going to jump. And according to his gopro videos he has done several jumps with new rig, and according to video from tourists he had new rig
Shortcut
Re: [Slavik] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
There is video of his exit, old rig, PC visible.
Shortcut
Re: [unclecharlie95] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
thank you for that charlie, still raises more questions than it gives possible explanations though :(
Shortcut
Re: [Slavik] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
.............if u fly terrain , if you hit the tree w hand or arm it can knock you and make arm useless... think about it... just one of the reasons...it is bizarre case , but it is also less likely we will ever get to know what happened to him.
very sad, he was a good boy
Shortcut
Re: [robibird] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
If someone has a metal detector and wants to search the site for the SD card..?
Shortcut
Re: [robibird] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
robibird wrote:
.............if u fly terrain , if you hit the tree w hand or arm it can knock you and make arm useless... think about it... just one of the reasons...it is bizarre case , but it is also less likely we will ever get to know what happened to him.
very sad, he was a good boy

It's look like most possible variant. One of his friends had touched tree by right hand during together flight without any injuries only mark his WS.
But "stable flight to impact" it's not what you do trying to reach PC any possible way.
We met him only one time, he lost his SD and we found it.
It's possible that he forgot to plug his card again before jump.
Shortcut
Re: [robibird] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
I thought about this, but when I visualized this situation- i have tried to pull or catch the bridle by another arm. And it would be poor-controlled flight. Of course non-jumping witnesses could not distinguish controlled flight from attempting to pull
Shortcut
Re: [Slavik] Re:Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
It could be a knot in the pilot chute, which has happened a few times
Shortcut
Re: Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
One possible explanation - based on proximity of the impact site to the foot of the mountain - is that he attempted to fly a line very far from the exit (Le Blaitiere cascade) and stalled the suit in trying to reach the start of the line.

This is the impact site from the article:



and this is a street view of Chemin du Liapet:



He probably flew by the refuge as he did before:



then flew at max performance trying to enter the line as high as possible and inadvertently bled off his horizontal speed (converting deceleration into higher glide ratio). He then made the turn into the line (the steepest way down) but had no other option but to continue flying low above the terrain in a stalled configuration matching the slope of the terrain (angle of attack ~35-45 degrees, L/D ~ 1.0-1.5).





Any attempt to either go into fast proximity regime or flare/gain altitude above treetops would only result in convex/sink-in trajectory, since he didn't have that extra kinetic energy needed for concave/peel-off trajectory. It took several seconds to try this and that body position and it only made situation worse. He got into a trap. Once you're in a stall, there's nothing you can do but to sink - basic physics - and he was already just above the treetops. The only hope was do a massive flare at the end of the slope, but even a massive flare in a stall would do nothing. If there was a window to pull in hope to survive a linestretch crash, it was extremely short, and a superquick reach for the handle (straight to it, instead of the usual reach-around-wing) might have resulted in fabric blocking the handle. Or he might have just decided in the final moments that it's better to die quick than to suffer long.

Anyway, this is just a conjecture, and we may never know what actually happened, but thinking about a flight scenario like this might save a life or two.
ImpactSiteActual.jpg
ImpactSiteGoogle.jpg
Refuge.jpg
Sketch1.jpg
Sketch2.jpg
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Have you flown Aquille du Midi?
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Very plausible scenario. One note though -- he did note several days before the incident that they were asked not to do fly-bys past the cafe as that was "scaring the customers".
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Whether or not that's what happened that's an interesting scenario.

Would be interesting to see Flysight data of the fatal jump if it was available.
Maybe it's time jumpers started using Flysights routinely so they could serve as a 'black box' in the event of a mishap (though I guess GoPro footage would still be better).

I didn't know Ratmir but it all sounds quite odd.
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
....that assumption has no sense at all. He was good flyer and stalling the suit all the way down is just assumption one who never flew AGM would write.
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
I agree with your theory, except for the stalling. Dario used to call it the "flat line" so the risk of stalling is obvious, but a "stalled flight" as you wrote on the image, doesn't really make any sense to me.

After flying this line a few times, and watching too many fatality videos, I can feel pretty confident that, if he in fact stalled, he would not have made it as far as he did.

my bro science theory is: he came out of the line lower than planned, for some reason was unable to pull, and flew to impact. I like to imagine that if I was unable to find the PC I would die trying. It would look like a struggle as I go to my back while scratching and fighting to get something out. After speaking with a friend who witnessed a similar accident, flying it calmly to the ground in the last seconds might not be so unheard of.

Not that this detail really matters for Ratmir, but after seeing the crowd of under skilled and under experienced pilots that showed up in Chamonix this year, it pains me a bit to have this sort of misconception of stalling out there for the easily influenced to read.

*Edited to add that Ratmir was flying very well on this trip. From what I saw, and others I spoke with, we all agree he was flying skillfully and with lots of speed. This accident still remains a bit of a head scratcher for me.
Capture.jpg
Shortcut
Re: [Lau] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
To clarify, by "stalled flight" I meant a "limp mode" flight where the pilot cannot peel off the terrain at any moment. Not necessarily a leaf-like, "stall stall". With L/D in 1.5 - 2-ish range and speed lower than max L/D speed. Energy-starving flight mode in which if one is cornered by terrain close below, it's impossible to increase the separation from it and one can only continue flying precariously until terrain hopefully becomes steeper.

In this mode it's possible to match the flatter (what looks like 2-ish GR) upper portion of Le Blaitiere, and the bottom portion is steeper, giving a bit of altitude above the treetops. But not enough for normal deployment. If the slope of the upper portion is continued down, the altitude above the LZ would probably be so low that pulling there would result in crashing into power lines/towers/electrical substation at linestretch.



If instead he arrived at normal deployment altitude (120m or higher) above the LZ, the possible impact area would be significantly farther into town.



(I noticed in his videos that in this suit he could level off at deployment time or gain a couple of meters of altitude, but still had plenty of horizontal speed; not slowing down to "go-n-throw slider down" kind of speeds. I guess this is due to suit being trimmed for speed, not for massive flares. So if he had trouble at pull time, the inertia would still be significant and the impact site would be much farther than the actual.)

I've experienced this "limp mode" once on a jump from Varan (it was a glide performance flight, with only brief intended sideways proximity near the end) where I lost that perfect speed and was struggling to maintain best L/D (2.75 in V4), it reduced to somewhat 2-ish - not too bad, and not even noticeable on video. I still had a good margin over the treetops (~100m) when I cleared the ridge (and 200m+ at deployment above LZ), but it felt... hopeless, as I couldn't return to best flight no matter what small changes to regain efficient AoA I tried, and any more radical change in flight configuration would only eat my margin. One can only imagine what it feels like to be in this trap at a couple of meters above the terrain... but it's a mental exercise every jumper must thoroughly think through.
Sketch.jpg
Sketch2.jpg
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Excellent info - thank you for describing and illustrating this flight mode
Shortcut
Re: [Rotbrett] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Does anyone know what suit he was wearing?
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
yuri_base wrote:
...the bottom portion is steeper, giving a bit of altitude above the treetops. But not enough for normal deployment
https://youtu.be/qBiAo9FD31Q?t=4m
Deploying at any altitude is better then not deploying at all. This old video shows it perfectly. I think Ratmir was experienced enough to know about it.
Not getting trapped in such a shitty altitude is much better though.
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
interesting hypothesis Yuri Base.
Thanks for providing "food for thought".

Robert P, please rebut with details if you have a chance.

Craig
Shortcut
Re: [yuri_base] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Thanks Yuri and Laurent to raise the debate and to make understand some points.
"Very good flyer, experienced, etc etc..." In all 36 death this year 2016 (23 in wingsuit), around 10 were in that case, some were very talented... the past years too... but it seems that they made some very big mistakes as skilled as they were. I know that it is not nice to hear, I don't want to shock anyone.
Taking risk, pushing its limits, is not a problem of chance or (mis/good)calculation, it is just a problem of survival time. It is not a jugment, just a fact (amer or lucid), and I say this with all due respect to those persons.
We know all that error is human, and FBL is full of sad examples.
The solution is only to understand the technical causes or more the personal way that leads to those errors?
RIP Ratmir
Take care & peace
Jerome
Shortcut
Re: [flyjeronimo] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
You're absolutely right Jerome. Being a good wingsuit pilot is a very broad statement. Just because someone is more comfortable with taking additional risk, does not make them better, maybe even the opposite. At the risk of sounding calloused, none of the accidents in Chamonix prior to Ratmir's, really surprised us. Painful none the less.

To clarify, in Ratmir's case, when I said he was flying well, I mean he demonstrated that he was flying with good speed, understood power management throughout a verity of angle changes and seemed to keep a broad awareness.

Personally I see the next needed evolutionary step in our sport is recognizing, as a whole, the difference between risk mitigating mountain athletes who take training and proper progression seriously, and those who lack personal discipline and are just plain reckless.
Shortcut
Re: [Lau] Chamonix 03.10.16 fatality
Totally agree with you, and that is why certain rules may well come to piss me off... Frown