Basejumper.com - archive

Ok peeps, so a friend (only 30 jumps) had an incident with a static line jump the other day and from reviewing the footage to work out what happened it brought up a an additional question.

I'm an inexperienced jumper myself (60 jumps) so wanted to put it to the community to discuss.

He was taught to swap the order of the closing pins on static line jumps.

Top pin gets pulled first and then bottom pin.

I personally don't do it this way but it got me thinking... It feels wrong to me simply because it's an out of sequence deployment and I can't really think of any real benefit to doing it this way.

Would there be potential issues with the canopy lifting out of the container before the attachment point has tension.

Thoughts?

What was your friends incident?

I route my bridle and pin cover flap the same for all jumps, static line and freefall. Routing them the other way around looks like there could be problems with pins not having enough room to extract, since you would also reverse the pin orientation, at least it would be reversed while looking at the rig normally. That pocket on the right of a gargoyle that the tip now rests in would become the pocket that the eye could get caught in.
I jump a Helium/Fox xs.

What was the incident?

I've never static lined this way, but I have reversed the pins when going handheld. Did he route the bridle out of the bottom or middle? I go out the bottom, but multiple people have told me that's unconventional. I think once the pins are popped, there isn't much time for the canopy to do anything before the bridle is at full stretch and is pulling the canopy out. You can look at the video from a year ago with the guy who didn't attach his bridle (RIP boombox fanny pack) and see how long it takes the canopy to come out. I think I remember him having to knock it out of the pack tray with his arm. I don't think your canopy does much of anything in between the pins popping and bridle stretch.

From what we can tell he might have had the bridle over his arm so when he launch he broke the static line with his arm not from the canopy extracting. The pilot chute got the canopy out, not the static line. Luckily had enough height to open.

It's really hard to see in the footage but what we know for sure is that the static line acted as it should, as in the break chord was broken where it should be (2 attachment points, Apex style). Judging by his body position after exit I'm thinking it was the bridle over his arm but when looking at the footage I noticed the reversed bridal routing and wondered whether this could at all have been a factor.

The bridle is routed from the middle then bottom pin/top pin.

I'm sorry I only read you're an experienced jumper with 60 jumps then forgot to read the rest.

It seems like you forgot to read any of it.

It's true I have been drinking what happened?

Haha inexperienced I get it haha carry on without my dumb ass comments.

I'm glad we got there in the end.

 

What kind of container? Was the pin cover flap open or closed?


If he caught the bridle on his arm, then it's not really the fault of his static line rigging or pin order, though.

Routing the bridle bottom to top is more about getting the bridle away from the potential snag hazard on the bottom corner than about PC pull direction or anything like that.

Thanks Tom always appreciate your answers.

Pin cover open. Can't remember what rig, I'd have to look again.

It's really hard to see in the footage but I'm 90% sure it was his arm around the bridle that caused the problem judging by the way he had it over his shoulder before climbing over.

Because I'd never seen someone route the bridle in the opposite direction I wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing that might have been related to that.

It shouldn't be.



Bad exit rolling backward maybe?

It's hard to imagine such a scenario, but there's a lot of chaos in jumping, and anything is possible.

If it's properly routed and the jumper does a halfway decent exit, it shouldn't snag. I don't really see any reason to route the bridle bottom to top for static lines. Did your friend who did it have any reasoning for why he did it that way?

Does any manufacture design bridle or pins to be extracted like that? It changes everything. Arent pins designed to stand up? So a head high exit(which you should for SL) would essential be a head low exit according to the bridle and pins? That causes higher tension.

Tom should be banned from bridle discussions you have already proven failure at this.

+1

I friend of mine did a similar thing, was static lining and wanted to keep his PC clear of a snag hazard so he held on to it as he jumped to control it. He inadvertantly loaded and broke the static line as he exited, releasing the PC right afterwards, resulting in low opening.

Doesn't really sound like a pin order / orientation issue. I believe pin orientation can matter (as per the Watch Thy Bridle article) but order of closing perhaps not.

This could turn into a ridiculously technical discussion of launch angle, body orientation, pull angles, and forces that I've never tested. If you just step off without a strong launch and you're in a stand up orientation, yes, I agree it's the same as a head down deployment. Based on what I remember from messing around with bridle orientations (not quantitative) I remember this feeling like it had more tension, like you said, but how much I'm not sure. I think it goes back to what you said before, if you can't open it with 160 Lbs, you have other problems. As far as being "designed" to stand up, I believe they were designed to open in any orientation, no matter which way the bridle is pulling, but I'm sure Bill would be more than happy to answer you.

Funny my post got deleted....

Censorship.


Get to testing... its just your life.
Pins do pull in any direction but usually at the cost of altitude-

When you reply to a post, your post is becomes part of a string, which is designed to provide continuity when splitting posts into different threads. This also applies to other posts being deleted, if you replied to it, yours goes away too. It's an obvious issue that's being worked on. If you're particularly passionate about coding and volunteering your free time for these forums, you can certainly PM me.

As for the original topic, I did do testing, I've settled on what I think works best for me (normal routing, which I've done for my last 12 handheld jumps). And if you have any data that you're willing to share, I'd like to see it.


EDIT:


If you're referring to this, I think there's some intricacy about an oxford comma I forgot to include. I've spent time pulling the bridle in different directions (actually the way I set my bridle up reversing the routing pulled out very cleanly), I just haven't used a scale to measure forces.

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You guys are clearly over your heads mechanically . You friend should stick to factory suggested Bridal & Pin routing . Or just jump Velcro Rig that you cant fuckup .
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That was my bad. There's no way to re-attach the posts once they get removed. My apologies.

Here's the removed content, at least:

AlexaFox

Yea agreed.

Even regardless of the negatives like reducing snatch force I don't know why you would change something with zero benefit.

Seems like t's just adding unnecessary complexities.



idemallie
Moderator

notcolsco wrote:
As for reversing the pin order on hand-held: again, I see no benefit. More importantly, though, I think it's foolish and removes a critical factor of the PC: secondary snatch force.

I think the primary reason is to reduce the slack going from your hand to the first pin. You can sort of accomplish this by just tucking the bridle into your shoulder strap, but I find that it usually doesn't hold very well. A little Velcro square (or magnet) can be used on the bridle for the same purpose (I think Apex makes a system like this using magnets). Having the square, you can also tell if there are any bridle routing issues by how far the square goes. If it's measured well, any misrouting will prevent it from mating properly.

When I reversed the pins, I would sometimes pop my top pin intentionally as a final double triple check to make sure I had everything routed properly (yes I was doing a pin check before I put it on). In this case, you basically have a 1-pin rig, and the whole snatch force thing becomes inapplicable.

Maretus

notcolsco wrote:
As for reversing the pin order on hand-held: again, I see no benefit.

I personally don´t do it (I use the normal orientation of pins when going hand held) but have experimented with this set up as well. And there is one benefit that I can see : it helps you to control your bridle as it reduces the length of "open" bridle from the pin to your hand. This might come handy when you´re going solo in the middle of a night on a windy antenna and you want to be sure that the wind has not blown the bridle around any snag point or under the corner of your rig etc. This of course up to some extent can also be achieved using the traditional "velcro on the shoulder" -method or the Apex style magnetic bridle but most of the people I know (me including) have neither of these systems in their rigs.



Markus
HSBC / SBA / FBA
www.basejump.fi / www.basejumper.ch If Not Adult Filter


alexafox

In reply to:
This might come handy when you´re going solo in the middle of a night on a windy antenna

I'm way too much of a pussy for that.

But seriously, i understand that logic. I jump a gargoyle and I just have someone tuck the bridle in up the top.

Still haven't seen any logical reasons for static line though.


HUCK


So your trying to reduce slack? People are worried about 8 inches of slack?

If you cant open a container with 160 pounds of pull force there is a bigger issue.

I only see disadvantages to this set up, hand held or static line.
1. Bridle is designed to be lifted not pulled (according to pins,with this pin orientation- head high exit would essential be a head low pin pull orientation )
2. puts bridle closer to cameras and helmet snags (tailwind HH)
3.its easier clear bridle at exit to check bottom pin to tie off.
150+ SL's

I've never really seen an advantage to the pin switching technique. I do enjoy a good low static line, and ive done all but 1 or 2 using a carry along static line with normal bridle orientation. Opening the flap, priming your pins, and having well maintained spectra closing loops should prevent most issues.

Keep in mind that most static line related incidents are related to misrigging, or somehow wrapping the bridle around a body part. I can't say I've reviewed all the static line death incident reports recently, but I can't recall one that would have had a different outcome of the pins had been reversed. Asylum sells a nice static line kit with a very clear warning. "If you fail to rig this kit properly, you will more than likely die". Fwiw I hold any excess bridle in my hand and release it as I jump. Basing my comments on about 200ish static line jumps.

I tend to agree. Switching configs is unnecessary and actually adds just potential for fucking up. Yes, it's trite but... Keep it Simple. Having participated in and observed a good amount of static lines, this just strikes me as a solution to an issue which isn't problematic.

RE: Static Line

I have made and helped/watched hundreds
of these jumps from 140 feet up to 320 feet.

These have ALL worked fine using standard
manufacturer bridles or home-made bridles,
Carry_With_You (CWY) or leave behinds,
and standard 550# paracord closing loops.

RE: Pin Orientation

I mostly jump Gargoyles and have done
handheld, freefall, PCA, SL, with the pins
in both configurations. They both work!!

I personally prefer routing bottom to top
if I know I am going handheld because if
I am solo I can feel the bridle from my
top pin clearly to either hand I'm using.

All other jumps I route top to bottom.

Of course I insert the pins accordingly.
Meaning in the direction of pull so the
bottom-to-top I insert the pins from
the yoke to the BOC. When going
standard top-to-bottom I insert the
pins from the BOC towards the yoke.

RE: S/L Deaths

From my unreliable memory I recall four:
I do not recall what Holly BASE 1367 did
but I know Channing pieced together old
break-cord, was low, and no pilot chute,
one guy wrapped a bridle around himself,
and another jump in bad winds hit tower.

In my opinion, a well performed SL jump
should have better than 99% reliability.

Which harness is the safest Sifu?

Immaterial Grasshopper
because any harness
you fail to inspect
or forget to wear
will kill you

Which Static Line technique is best Sifu?

This specific instance Grasshopper
destination more important than path
Any method you can perform without error
is better than the best method performed poorly

As the old adage goes "A lot of creative solutions to problems that never existed".
I have always been intrigued by these cyclical trends and why people push/adhere to them the way they do.

I've heard this before, and I remember wearing rigs where I could feel the top pin, but not the bottom pin. However, on my Gargoyle it's basically impossible for me to reach the top pin, but I can reach the bottom pin quite easily (which is why I went back to standard routing). Probably a combination of container, canopy size, and body geometry.

It's just a matter of personal preference. I'm not advising anyone to do this, only sharing what I have experienced. Done correctly, the pin order is as inconsequential as routing your bridle out the middle vs. the top. These techniques aren't game changers. If you're unsure, defaulting to the manufacturers recommendation is always the best course of action.

The best solution to fix this problem and erase any questions on how to rig up a s/l is to use a Velcro rig. Why do you need bridle protection and aerodynamics on a container that is only going to be used for less than a second?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=591JrPN4PpU


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Last night did a 240' SL,
I am able to feel both pins
while wearing my Gargoyle,
thanks to having long arms.

Asking people's thoughts makes me in over my head?

I wasn't on the jump, I saw the footage of the incident. On my journey of discovery as to what caused this incident so that both myself, my friends and the community may learn something and avoid this type of incident in future, I noticed that they routed their bridle the opposite direction.

With my limited experience, I used my analytical powers of deduction to think about whether there were any benefits or risks with this set up and couldn't think of any for either side (specifically for static line) other than why complicate something that has no real benefit.

Instead of assuming I know everything about static line and go tell my friends that "they're doing it wrong" my thought was to put this to the community to see whether I'd missed something as a humble and knowledge thirsty jumper.

Bottom line is, it's looking more and more likely that he wrapped his bridle around his arm, but now I can confidently talk to them and say that it's probably best not to complicate their set up and stick to factory settings.

Yes .
.

Thanks for clarifying. Makes sense.

You write like jumping over your head is a bad thing . Everyone is jumping over there head from there very 1st base jump they do .
.
You asked for ' thoughts ' .
I only going by what I read from your Post . Starting with your friend with ( 30 jumps ) . and you saying you have ( 60 jumps ) . So I say that I am pretty spot-on with you both jumping over your heads especially on mechanics .
.
The primary concern you talk about 'your friend' changing ( opposite direction ) routing out the top for a static-line deployment . Also in your Post, you don't really state the experience lever of the jumper who 'taught' him to do this .
For a static deployment , If the jumper who directed your friend to do opposite direction routing of Pin/Bridal has hundreds of jumps doing this with also owning the same container system your friend is jumping . It is ' most likely ' just be a moot point and making your concerns irrelevant .
.
Being this is the Internet I just make the assumption that everyone asking questions is just ' Over There Heads ' and dumbass until proven otherwise .
.

You can see where your statement about being in over our heads wasn't taken in the most positive way.


It was the same experienced jumper who also taught him to wrap his bridle over his shoulder as he climbed over which caused the actual incident so I'm not going to blindly take one opinion from one person no matter how experienced they are.

Anyway I'm still not really sure what point your making but thanks for the input regardless.

Not trying to really make a point, I am just killing a few minutes here on the PC reading second hand information on a video you watched . And something is important to you, or you would not have Posted looking for BASE ..." thoughts ".
I am not even sure you actually got answer to your original question in the Thread you started ?. The post started with your video review of a jump leaving questions in your mind, unsure of a proper Routing direction, but ended with you deciding the problem was your friend climbing-out and exiting without looking to see if his bridal was clear .
.

quote:
" It was the same experienced jumper who also taught him to wrap his bridle over his shoulder as he climbed over which caused the actual incident . "

No person teaches another person to climb-out and to Exit with a bridal that is not clear and wrapped around an appendage of there body . The proper thing to state is that both Jumpers failed to see that the Bridal was not clear before Exit . Or . Neither jumper knows the proper Bridal routing for the this particular exit on a jump.
So now I have to say that there are 3 people that are jumping over there heads . You, your friend, and your friend's friend .
.

I'm not sure you read my initial post at all. Reviewing the footage brought up an additional question... What are the pros and cons of doing it this way. The overwhelming majority are saying that there are no real benefits when it comes to static line, but it does add unnecessary complexities. Which is not what this experienced jumper has taught.

I'm still unsure as to why asking and confirming my own thoughts on this question puts me in over my head.


The method of climb over and placement of the bridle is directly related to the fact that he had the bridle wrapped around his arm in the first place. Wrapping it around your arm only to unwrap it on the other side seems like unnecessary risk to me which has in turn caused an incident.

He was the only one on the exit at the time and of course it's his responsibility to check it's clear but i also feel it's my responsibility as a fellow jumper and friend to minimise risk for myself and everyone I jump with. If asking questions like this puts me 'in over my head' then so be it.

Who is teaching people to wrap their bridle around their arm to climb over something?

FJC in Europe. I don't want to name names.

The bridle is draped over the shoulder of the jumper in front of them and attached to the object. Assuming the jumper puts their hands in the right place and turns towards the bridle side, the bridle would fall off the shoulder and be in the right place once in position but if you put your hand in the wrong spot it doesn't come off the shoulder properly resulting in the bridle in front of the hand as opposed to behind.

Why not? If they are teaching this technique they most likely habe reason behind it why they see it as the appropriate way? It would be very interesting to hear the reasoning behind and also I think public and open discussion about different FJC´s can only be beneficial to people who are thinking about taking one (and hopefully reading these forums before deciding on which one).



Can you maybe reconstruct this method and take some pictures of this, I find it quite difficult to get the idea of this technique based on the description above?

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Pleeeease.. tell me it's FJC with that Prick ' McDougall ' .
.

Why do you not simply show us the video or at least a screenshot?

I only know of the bridle on the shoulder when going handheld. For static line I can't picture the scenario.

I did the FJC with 50cal Base Academy and got taught the same pin order for handheld and staticline-jumps : bridle comes out between the pins, goes to the bottom pin and then to the top pin, both oriented in smiley face. Flap stays open of course

For stowed jumps the regular order. Coming out of the middle to the top and then to the bottom, frownie face pins.

Made sense to me but noticed that other courses always jumped with the same pin order.

Not everyone* is aware, "Frowny" or "smiley" pin direction is manufacturing-specific. For instance, get ahold of an Apex bridle and an Asylum bridle and compare how the pins are attached.. and, this thread.

* er, "most people"?

I change my pin orientation depending on what jump I am doing, I have a Apex bridle, is that not normal?

Pins can be sewn to the bridle "facing left" or "facing right." Most people probably put asylum pins "smiley," and apex "frowny," I think because of this. One could also reverse this whether your bridle is routed to the left, or to the right, of the pins.

I'd have no opinion about what personal preferences people choose in their own rigging, as long as it works!

You probably shouldn't be seeking my opinion anyway :)

It's not my footage to share (also I don't have it, was just shown) but I'm happy to reconstruct and post a photo of what can be seen in the footage.


Agreed. That's why I will message them directly and tell them about the incident to discuss before publicly calling them out. :) From what I've heard this is an extremely reputable FJC run by a very experienced jumper so I don't want to start shit just want them to know what's happened.

I'm not

Just trying to clarify, "pin direction is manufacturing-specific"
sewn facing left or right doesnt stop me choosing frowny or smiley is what I am saying

nobody. Do you think people nowadays seek mentorship and lifesaving information? I'm pretty sure there's alot of "jumpers" that dont do anything along those lines and its sad

Nobody - The Euro FJC

Do you think people nowadays seek mentorship and lifesaving information? - Yes the majority

A very small minority "dont do anything" and there is a too much emphasis put on them I think and not enough on the rest

I agree with this. I feel there's also a fair amount of hypocrisy around it too. People complaining that no one seeks mentorship or information yet when you do ask a question and seek assistance you get berated for not knowing the answer in the first place.

This creates an intimidating culture and achieves the exact opposite of what they state they want - a community of new jumpers seeking information and mentorship.

WHAT ! . the hell you say ?? ... honestly, I thought the goal here on the BASE.com is making it as intimidating and fearful as possible, to weed-out the weak and timid .
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i'd just like to point out that the internet is not mentorship. i've never seen someone berated for asking advice from an experienced jumper in a real life situation. honestly, i've seen quite a few that i felt SHOULD have been berated, but... alas, that is why i'm not a teacher.

:)

She's not using the internet at "mentorship". I don't know a single jumper who has ever used the internet as mentorship in BASE. She's using it for an opinion based on an event.

We all have sought out the opinion of jumpers here. It's no different than the " what type of PC for a big ws question " Is that jumper using the internet as a mentor for WS BASE? No. They would like to know the opinion of a larger number of people for them to make a more educated decision.

IMO

yes sir, agreed. not saying she's doing anything wrong...

the forums are a weird place, where pretty much everyone gets berated for something, especially newer people unfortunately. it's just not the real world. good with the bad.

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that pretty much what Base.com is, 85% entertainment interaction with about 15% intelligent education, judgment & learning .
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I've met a few jumpers under a mentorship that I thought had a poor amount of basic knowledge. I've met a couple jumpers who didn't have a mentor or FJC and they knew as much as I did and probably more because they picked people's brains and read the forums. Where there's a will, there's a way.