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So, who taught the legstrap guy? Because it wasn't his instructor who saved his life...

Grapevine says 3 times course with SRBA, and 2 1/2 times with a european school.

You can't fix stupid

Should his AFF instructor be held accountable?

If he's the common denominator in stupidity, well...yeah.

Warning --- Hot Coffee may be Hot!

Oh, and you have to wear your harness

if you want a parachute to save your life.

I know a guy who forgot the harness and the parachute still saved his life. He wore a wingsuit and that's what saved him. Kinda ironic given the trends in the sport

so weird he shows up and does a spontaneous unpacked jump.

at least he had his chest strap done up eh?

Yah this is one I have to put on a student more than an instructor. Some people should not BASE jump plain and simple. If this guy was somehow able to get to an exit point and climb over a rail and not feel that he had no leg straps on, something is probably going to get him sooner or later. I wondered how jimmy could have possible not noticed he didn't have a pilot chute on, but this is an entirely different level.

Depends, does the SRBA require AFF jumps?

Same characters, it's another one of those threads again.
What does this have to do with a BASE FJC? Doesnt everywhere teach the check of threes in AFF1?

A lot of people seem to be quick to point the finger, especially if they have an axe to grind. At what point does the student become responsible for themselves? Why not blame the skydiving instructor or school? No money in this game for me, but leave the politics out.

Well there's your problem right there. He didn't finish up that last european course where they teach you how to put on your leg straps.

Does it matter?
This level of stupid is beyond anything we have ever seen.

Although working with a physical check lists would prevent this.
I put the one I use during skydiving and BASE in the attachment.
What we do is (sometimes) high stress. Checklists are a great tool and used everywhere in aviation.

I like how he did not forget to turn on his go-pro.

He spent an awful long time on that ledge before someone spotted the legstraps. It's not their job and eventually they did spot it, but still.

He's just making sure there's a vigilant instructor around!

Do you use this on every jump? If so I commend you, but I think getting others to bring a physical checklist along with them would be near impossible. I think many people are more interested in maximizing their jumps/day than using a rigorous method to ensure safety. Where's the 3 ring check at?

I dont think any instructor should be accountable for explaining the nessecity of Legstraps

???

It was some years ago. S-fly makes quality suits, that's for sure! He was some kinda dropzone hero, typical

douggs: STOP STOP STOP!!!
muppet: ..gopro???

Dude fucked off without buying Douggs a beer after he saves his life
Says all you need to know about some people

Talking about the Legstraps guy is important because he is such a douche, but your intentions simply reek like a well-used asshole.

Yeah. It's an absolute crying shame that I'd want the uninitiated and uninformed to pause and reconsider their choice of the school with the best marketing and first to accept them with little skydiving experience over the better, more qualified, and much more widely respected if more discerning instructors out there.

Sheesh. What am I thinking?

Dorkzonehero! The funny thing is he contacted S-Fly afterwards on how they could improve their stitching

Legendary!

BFL would have read "jumper failed to put his rig on".

Your obsession with Tom is so apparent and your attempt to lay blame on him for this douchebag's actions is ridiculous. You're making a fool of yourself.

Hahahaaa!

Should it have even been in the BFL if Douggs didn't spot it?

If you don't have a harness on, is it really still a base jump?

There's been people that fell off the object before gearing up and they didnt make it.....Where do we draw the line?

What about suspension base jumps. If one of those hooks pulls out and they go in....will it make the BFL?


MBA-Patto?

Interesting question.

I'd say that if someone jumped off of an object intending to make a BASE jump and perished - it's a BASE fatality.

Slips or falls don't count. Misrigging or misconfiguring equipment does.

I think it's a matter of intent as well. If you start war gaming this too hard, it becomes like the discussion of "what counts as a seperate object?" If you wanted to get really technical, a fatality on an unpacked jump shouldn't make the list either, which would be...silly.

I'm not laying blame to him for the error of a student of his on another continent.

It's the standards of admittance to SRBA that I'm trolling.

Feel free to share what you know about his prior experience and qualifications.

How about we share yours and how much emphasis you put on how well you learned to fly and land a parachute in AFF instead? Perfect example of my point, Lt. Puppet.

Does anyone have any info on this guy? How many jumps did he have before the SRBA?

It might be helpful to other jumpers looking for courses...

I had 51 skydives when I took Tom's course. Feel free to continue turning this into a question about me so you can avoid telling us what you know about his experience.

I don't really see that his prior experience is relevant.
From having done 1 skydive he should have known better.

We've seen one of the world's most experienced jumpers forget his pilot chute before jumping.
As someone mentioned there have been numerous cases of skydivers forgetting to put on or tighten their legstraps (at least 1 of which was a fatality).

It's fun to laugh at the guy but history has proved that stupid and fatal errors with gear can happen to anyone at any experience level. Even in the last 3 months there have been 2 deaths due to absolutely basic gear errors that anyone who can pack a skydiving rig should have been able to check and resolve prior to doing a FJC.

To me it just goes to show how badly you can screw up when your mind is not on the job.

It was an honest question. And it wasn't about you or your inexperience this time.

What was this SRBA student's experience, as he was accepted into the SRBA academy?

+1 like

Yet I've never lit a man on fire. Keep defending your instructor who did.

+1. Nothing to add any more.

I'll repeat my question: why does the guy filming the incident not notice any earlier? The things are flapping all over the place, yet the jumper is seconds from death before anyone notices (again...not their job).

Could it be that subconsciously his brain decided he didn't need leg straps because he wasn't jumping a pack job?

Fun fact: he says " I'm not going jump" but then minutes later he's like 'honest mistake why waste a good jump' and he's back over the rail. I'd be questioning my sanity instead.

I agree with most of what has been typed...

Anyone can fuck up, BUT if You did almost die
due to something so basic then standing down
for at least one day would have made sense.

The fact that this guy decided to harness-up
and huck a few minutes later says volumes.

Also, anyone who takes that many courses
probably needs an S&TA and a Jumpmaster.

Bowling is for everyone, but the simple truth
is most do NOT have all the skills for BASE!!

The person filming is not a jumper. The person who likes to jump was not part of the base course and was jumping on his own, so logically no one activliy checked him.

Yeah. Why would you look around and check others on the exit?

When looking through a lens and filming most observations go out the window. You're busy filming and watching a tiny screen vs a full picture.

Its not hard to see why a person focussed on another activity doesnt notice. Nor is that anything you should expect from a non-jumper.

The guy filming is not a jumper (although has done one tandem BASE jump where he would've worn legstraps) so not of the same vigilant mindset.

Ok. I wasn't judging; just a surreal situation.

The BFL should have an "honorary mention" section for dead people who didn't go in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDSqODtEFM
"You fucking idiot! Get the fuck of this bridge"...ding ding ding...
~J

When I'm on an exit, I'm focused on myself. The people I jump which are capable of looking for themselves. Of corse if someone asks me to give him a gear check I will do that. But I won't actively check others. For sure if I see something I will point it out. I would not jump with someone who I think could do a basic error because this would reduce my funfactor. Sorry if this sounds arrogant but I'm to old and don't have the nerves for kindergarten...

..now after a week of bullshit about such normal things like fuckups in parachuting finally the true question came out!!! It must be that some one is guilty!! Why not the guy who was filming?!!! Of course!! Let blame any one!!! Such lame and plane stupid try.
Wasnt in base one and only rule valid?! Responsability goes to jumper only! Keep that in mind till whole agenda gonna be change, mentality as well.. till than keep accusation for yourself

I wasn't blaming anyone. Where do I talk about finding the guilty one?

I was simply wondering why the guy with the camera didn't spot it. As he was only filming and not jumping. And he was 6 feet away. And the legstraps were flapping around.

As someone stated: he's not a jumper. Question answered.

Perhaps you read some sort of statement in my question, but there is none.

See Collin, I knew it. Your crush on Tom is so strong that you can't control yourself anymore. Admit it, you think he's incredibly hot don't you?

Control your urge and stop blurting out about him in every thread, especially when it has zero bearing to the discussion at hand. (Although it's apparent that thoughts of Tom and your hand go together well.)

Very Well Said Robi!
Take care,
Space

Thread change. Please Mods link this up and move it to the proper place(s).
task integration vs task substitution. First is The evil of "Task Substitution"
I have observed this with others and myself.
"Task Substitution." is a trap to fall in to.
Being a safe sailor, I noticed that when we went on deck in rain. Half the crew forgot their life vests most times. They had, Substituted, putting the life vest on, with putting the rainsuit on. It gets kinda scary to know that one did the seemingly intuitive thing... But instead has done the most vile of crime of not finishing the formula that inserting a new task has brought on.
Be very aware of task substitution. This can be seen with rigless freefall cameramen. They substituted gearing up with the parachute system with gearing up with the camera system.
Inserting a new task is not the prob. The prob comes when the task,
substitutes for another task.
"Task Integration" Should be of IMHO the first priority.
"Task Substitution." is vile.
Please discuss this for me.
take care,
space.

Totally agree- this is like, "Cognitive Failures 101".

I'm a little shocked by how many people... are shocked... that this happened. Anyone who doesn't think something this obvious could ever happen to them, will someday eat a fat slice of humble pie, if they jump long enough.

Go ahead, someone start telling the world that your system is too good to let a dumb mistake happen. And I will show you a complacent jumper. Everybody at the exit point is trying to kill you, especially yourself.

Totally agree with Robibird's post above, too. There was only 1 person on that bridge who had responsibility for that fuckup.

Much respect to Douggs for the save.

Listen
Even raising such question is accusation. What if he was a jumper?!
Let say hi is a jumper ...and what? Why, how he did not spot it?!
Well, he did not as he did not.
Again, whole this thread is disgrace. Ppl goes on it like flys on shit...to show supermacy over the guy who does not heve talent nor head to be base jumper i guess.
No one is imune on mistakes. no one died in the smart way.
Get that finally.
That legstrap guy has his issues and for sure he is missing answer to himself how he manage to get to this point. Isnt that enough?!
After all..Douggs reaction is normal .. "you owe me beeer buddy."
It exactlly come to this ..and only this. No drama..no queen there...

Include a camera and its use as part of the students equipment and part of the jump right from day one during AFF. From the first jump.

This might sound stupid to some, but I'm not joking.

Yes, it does sound stupid sir!!

Have you ever been a teacher?

Beginners only have so much ability . . .

Not everyone uses camera, wingsuit, RDS, etc.

All a camera is is one last thing to turn on.
And then it is becomes part of the pattern of checks (last check) from day one.
And the correct attitude to the camera can be taught from day one.

It does not take much ability to press a button.

And yes i taught AFF for a year, and only did 60 odd jumps, which i know is basically nothing.

But I have been around AFF and static line and students for a lot longer, and have seen many times the lack of focus jumpers have when they start using cameras for the first time, especially regarding gear checks.
Also seen it first hand a lot in speedflying.

Cameras definitely cause a lot of hazards. But i think this is down mostly to unfamiliarity and that it is not a part of the kit from day one.


Personally i never liked fun jumping with cameras. Only if i was coaching or filming.
So for such students who also don't like the camera, once they get A license , they can drop the camera from the kit.

For the ones who want to keep using it, it will already be a familiar part of the kit and the jump and the checking procedure once they go off A license (and supervision)

So you proximityflew down from Mount Olympus and decided that asking an honest question equals accusation. I guess there's nothing left to say then.

What is surprising to me is how I get an avalanche of negativity over my virtual head, while the motives of the poster of the video are never questioned, while other people are literally judging jumper, filmer and even base ethics and while others are using this unfortunate incident as a means to slander totally unrelated instructors.

I do regret posting in this shit topic, I'll give you that much.

But... I come to basejumper.com for all the drama...

though agreeing with robi, i did not mean any negativity toward you. actually i think you raised a really good point (whether intentional or not), that obvious problems can be overlooked even with half a dozen people standing around.

takeaway points from this near-incident?
if you don't ask someone to check you over... they probably wont
get a gearcheck but don't depend on others
be disciplined, it saves you from errors
good habit patterns prevent mistakes too
leave the gopro at home
watch out for task substitution
people will always armchair quarterback afterwards

This.
The BFL keeps statistics on container type and clothing but how many people went in without a camera in the past 10 years?

I too know a guy who forgot his leg straps on a WS skydive and walked away. He fly's a Squirrel suit ;)

Yup, I fucked up. In reflection I could have blamed several people who basically watched me zip up my bodybag and load the plane. BUT in reality I was the only person to blame. I take full responsibility... I was using a packer which I NEVER do, but it was fucking stupid hot and humid and I was getting my boogie on. bottom line I got out of my routine and it nearly cost me my life.
For the record, I got right back into the plane and continued to jump. We call each other "family", there are people at my DZ that ask me on EVERY jump, if my leg straps are on(prior to this event). CARE MORE and be your brothers keeper.

Do you have video?

yes I do.

May I please see it?

Thank you for sharing that.

The 'Leg Strap Guy' from this recent event has over 1100 skydives and 120 BASE Jumps - Far from a noob. He fucked up royally and was very lucky it was noticed but the amount of shit he is getting for it is unfortunate.

the amount of this he is getting is unfortunate? how do you figure? he would be better off dead? he deserves every bit of shit thrown at him for this royal fuck up.

whats unfortunate is that you are somehow implying that he deserves some kind of sympathy for fucking up this bad.

I would be more sympathetic if: he had not jumped a minute later, or said thank you, or bought beer after, or demonstrated any appreciation of how close he came to being dead forever.

It's even worst from someone who had already some experience. A guy who just buy a rig and come to jump 1st time by itself, maybe, unlikely and still hardly understandable but with > 1000 jumps with a rig??? There re still part of me who think it s a fake, because it still hard to believe that someone can do that mistake.
And the fact he jumped anyway after and didn t even thank Douggs properly make him deserving this "amount of shit".

guy is a straight up noob. I don't care how many skydives you have.
I barley consider myself past noob status

When i jump with Michi i check him from the side because he is a clumsy guy :P

Thanks for that Olek, you know I apreciate this

@ Mr. Hey. That looks good on paper. But in reality it would be a bad Idea in a 1st jump course. First jump course is all about survival. Not video. It is very great idea to offer this after the main criteria are met. Main Criteria meaning; rigging, launch and recovery theory, canopy control, Winds ect.
Knowledge is by the bucketfull. But a Mentor must spoonfeed this to avoid overloading one´s student.
I personally as a mentor do not allow cams on my student´s first jump. Side angle is ok. No jumper self cam. i dont allow it to be posted in social forums. Well until they become famous.
Jumping camera is a different skill added to Jumping in these days.
Take care,
space.

Thanks for reply.
I was talking about Skydiving, and having this as part of the SKydiving world ( now that cameras are an everyday part of most skydivers jumps due to small size)

As in, in AFF have a camera on the student from day one.

Not for Base jumping.
I agree that having a camera on for a BASE FJC or when learning BASE or when learning Speedflying could be a bad idea.

But then those who do choose to do base jumping or speed flying one day - who come from skydiving - might already have a good attitude to cameras and good habits if they have used a camera from day one in AFF.

A lot of people are starting Base after 200 or less skydives. If they have been on drop zones with strict rules, they may have never even used a camera yet during a skydive by then.

Then after their FJC you can be fairly sure many of these students will be jumping with go-pros on in no time or on there first jump after it. With no familiarity or safe habits to go along with it/ reduce the risk they cause.

SO if they had used a camera on most of those 200 skydives, this may be of benefit to them when they eventually use a camera for base jumping (seems like many or most do)



My point was really about Skydiving and how the rules about cameras are outdated and perhaps counter-intuitively setting new student skhydivers up for a fall further down the road. I was not suggesting FJC students use cameras.

Remember that photography and BASE jumping are unrelated skills. It should be a training course on it´s own as an option offered in advanced skill course.
But Survival for the the student is the number 1 priority for The Mentors or Instructors. Not teaching how to Cinema. That is way down the list. If a student of mine answers his cell phone during instruction, He is out.
I really don´t understand why peeps don´t bring journals to take notes on the course. We have a method. Write it down. Organize it to you. Establish a priority list and also have a plan when changing your plan to check out the integrity of the plan.. If you want to survive in this sport, one must realize that It aint about opening direction, or body position. It is about the PRE FLIGHT and FLIGHT PLAN, AND POST FLIGHT PLAN:
(caps lock of)
Then once when one feels competent, integrate video. a quote almost from Dennis Pagen. "the 3 "Fs" Foto Family, Friends" greatly increases the risk of death or injury. but this is old school now to the newbies.In my opinion, it raises the risk an easy 50%. It is jumping with an audience. Rather than jumping for for self indulgence. I promote the latter. Just remember that people have died substituting Gearing up the FF camera gear with gearing up in a rig.
I hope this helps you. That is pretty much the best knowledge i I could hurl at you ;-)
Take care,
space.

So basically, you are saying that since cameras will be ever-present in basically all jumping, we should teach students to ignore the camera from their very first (skydiving) training?

Honestly, that sounds like a pretty solid premise to start from. I'm not sure I'm totally sold, but it's definitely an idea to ponder.

Space, think of it not as "camera training" but as "training in how to ignore the camera" and it becomes a lot more interesting.

That is a part of training cam jumps. One´s student can only do things one step at time. Info overload is the balance edge. Teach the student to save self and the camera? that is another course.
Take care and we discuss this ok ?
space.

Bad Idea for many reasons . . .

Business spends more on equipment

Instructor has one more thing to check

Student has one more thing to learn

Safety wise, poses a potential snag point

Violates USPA's 200 jump rule/suggestion

Perpetuates the lame "video or didn't happen"

Most tandem passengers never do an AFF jump,
many AFF students do not become licensed, but
because this one muppet forgot how important
wearing your harness is, now every scared
animal that wants to learn SKY jumping
should be made to wear a camera?!

Exactly.
It's a stupid idea.

Learning to jump a camera has been done safely by the vast majority of jumpers and in countries like Australia with a minimum requirement of 100 jumps.

I would have expected a different answer from you Tom. I understand your interest in his point of view but as an experienced instructor you already know that the camera is not the problem. The real problem is task substitution as Tracy mentioned earlier.
If people are not trained to be vigilant and respect this then they will fuck up camera or not. Give them a camera on day 1 and it will just be something else that distracts them ie. the camera is not the problem just the current manifestation.
To the OP adding a camera to day 1 skydiving is ridiculous. Students already have enough on their plate and if you could load them with more then there is still a pile of more relevant information that would come before a camera.

BASE (and BASE instruction) is a constantly changing environment.

Being interested in new ideas enough to think about them is a generally positive attribute in such an environment.

Supporting or adopting a new idea and thinking about it are two totally different things. If we get in the habit of dismissing every new idea immediately, we are doing ourselves a disservice.

FWIW, I was thinking more along the lines of "talk about how they need to start ignoring cameras all the time, because someone will always be pointing them at them."

Cameras have been a contributing cause to many, many fatalities. Actively training students to be "camera blind" and ignore them isn't an idea we should dismiss out of hand.

Making them "200+ jumps only" tends to encourage an attitude of "if you have 200 jumps, then you're good to go" which has definitely not worked well in some other areas (see, for example, wing suits).

Don't let the students see or don't let them have a copy of the video. Maybe as a life saving measure for all of us, gopros should have a six month delay in processing video.

now that is simply GENIOUS!!! im going to print that out, laminate it, and carry it around with me everytime i jump!!!! hell, i may simply tattoo it on my left arm (since im right handed), and be super sure to check all the checkboxes before go-time. thanks for your ingenuity!!!!!!!

Confuscious say: Best bet to prevent pregnancy: no fucky

Confuscious say: best bet to prevent BASE death: no BASEY

This makes sense because students should already be getting taught this or some similar variant (forget the camera, don't show off for the camera, jump as if there is no camera, don't fuck with your camera instead of gear checks, think about your own jump instead of filming everyone etc.). But it is totally different to "Let's put a camera on everyone from AFF up so they get used to it".

Right. And you think that helps him? He probably is beating his head many times somewhere because for sure he knows he fucked up big time. Neither sympathy does help, nor does burning somebody to the ground. But a good evaluation afterwards would.

Also, what is wrong with jumping after correcting a mistake. I am pretty sure the famous person jumping without a PC on a WS jump would gladly jump with a PC after noticing it was missing. Or, jumping after a chest strap was misrouted and then corrected.

Go ahead now, go slander me.

+1

Thank you for posting that.

I climbed over the rail once with my chest strap undone (tardover). I caught it on my own...couldn't believe I was so stupid. I did up my chest strap, triple checked the rest of my kit and jumped. It was humbling and I don't know that anyone could have been harder on me than I was on myself. As it happened, no one even noticed.

The residual value of a mistake is the renewed focus on prejump process AND the REALIZATION that you are capable of mistakes. This guys was certainly lucky Douggs was there, as he would NOT have caught it. This guy will never forget his leg straps again

no one is infallible. however, this guy is an easy target for ridicule. history shows anyone can make a grave mistake, but errors of this kind are hard to forgive and forget. hopefully he can grow from it, but time will tell. never met the guy, so i really don't care.

i wrote this recently regarding my own errors:

"one time, i jumped camel back mountain with my cell phone in the inside pocket of a jean jacket. upon opening it fell out and smashed down on the talus. after landing i hiked up, found it and then with about 10 dollars worth of new parts fixed it and used it for another year. it sucked not having a phone for a week though. hindsight taught me to use the button pockets, or stuff it in my tights.

lesson learned. other than jumping in a headwind and smashing into the least technical building i've ever jumped... i've never made another mistake. "

don't take anything too seriously. except when dealing with a single parachute system, then make sure you at least hook that shit up right.

wait, seriously you wore a jean jacket?? you deserve crap for that more than anything else :)

see attached.

+10

thats......faaabulous!

+100. I have so many dead friends from simple mistakes in BASE. So many people are making fun of this guy, but not looking in the mirror for their own mistakes. I read a story online about how the first aviation checklist was made (after an accident where a pilot forgot to unlock a trim tab). 75-100 years ago pilots were learning how to survive flying. We are in the same place now in BASE. This guy reminded us that simple mistakes happen. 10 years ago a guy died 100 feet from the Outback in twin drunk and lost and hypothermic, and he reminded us that getting lost after a jump can be deadly. Faced with these observations we have two options. Poke fun at the person thinking we never will be that stupid, or make a plan so we will never be that stupid.

Remember the guy who forgot his skydiving rig when filming a tandem? He didn't have his leg straps on either.

This incident reaffirmed to me that checklists are important. I personally follow the same one (check of threes + SHAGGR) on every jump and when not being an AFFI I simply say "not needed" when I hit unused letters like R. Same one every time. If this guy did the same, this incident would have been avoided. So instead of thrashing this guy, the lesson I see is we need to treat unpacked jumps with the same gear check checklist and when you encounter an unneeded step (handle check in check of three, example) - still check it, and perhaps take it one step farther to think "handle is no longer in boc, did I remove it from the canopy???"

This morning I wanted to drive my car out of the garage. I pushed the button on the remote but the gate was already open. So while I backed out it closed and I drove into it.

Please learn from my mistake.

"Proximity FLEW from mt. Olympus".......LOL!!!!!!

I don't get how he could still jump after he was just seconds from death. His go pro remarks made me cringe as well.