Basejumper.com - archive

No denying that total malfunctions, or any other hesitation in the deployment process happen very fast, and the time to correct said malfunction if/once it is noticed is even shorter.

That being said, I have talked to a few other jumpers randomly over the years about the possibility of rigging a ‘closing loop release’ type system. Using the same coated cable on 3 ring cutaway systems and a handle on the MLW (would have to have the harness out of the wingsuit, obviously), have the closing loops (with an eye on both ends) anchored under the bottom of the pack tray with the yellow cable using a through loop style closing container (while still using the retaining washer that is currently used). If a pin lock/PC in tow/No PC/container lock or other total malfunction is noticed, release the closing loops from the bottom by pulling the cutaway handle, relieving tension in the closing loop(s) and hopefully giving the system enough slack to clear the malfunction and release the parachute. See attached rough drawing.

It may not solve all total malfunctions, but it could help in some. Careful packing and gear checks also work well to prevent malfunctions.

Now, please shoot holes in this idea.

Disclaimer: Yes, it would add complexity to a system that needs to be as simple as possible to reduce the chance of something failing. And it would also add a whole new failure mechanism that could result in premature deployment that could be fatal if near terrain. Just thinking outside the box.

[quote "jpengel"
Now, please shoot holes in this idea.

Disclaimer: Yes, it would add complexity to a system that needs to be as simple as possible to reduce the chance of something failing. And it would also add a whole new failure mechanism that could result in premature deployment that could be fatal if near terrain. Just thinking outside the box.


Good thinking and congratulations on thinking outside of the box.

I think you already shot the holes in the idea yourself, though.
KISS.
My first BASE specific rig was a Sorcerer ( two canopy BASE rig )
I have 11 intentional BASE cutaways on this system and it frigging works!
Why is it not the Standard today?
Because it's inconvenient in the modern BASE environment.

OH Well? B.

I have thought of this idea my self, and like you say, so have many others. But let's be real - just pack the way you should - like your life depends on it!

The Italians have had this system for a few years now. http://www.basejumper.com/...ing=base689;#2956543
But look at it realistically, If one doesnt know how to close a container. it wont help by making it more complicated.
Take care,
space

this.

i have a loop cutaway system on my 3 rigs (one zak, one prism, one zak/vertex-ish homemade 2 pin)
i did quite a lot of testing, i tried yellow cables in soft housing aswell as hardhousings and found the pullforces to get way out of hand if jumper balls up or wears a lot (eg. a back protector). so the thing i ended up with was spectra line in softhousing and straight pins to retain the loops.

this gives moderate pullforces even in very high pin tension scenarios, but then i ditched the idea and spend another year or so figuring out a way how to keep those straight pins in place and to prevent prematures. since they are mounted on the inside of the container you cannot check them anymore when closed.
the pin is held in place with the spectra line that pulls on it, so it doesnt even raise the pullforces and the pin cannot be pushed out, it has to be pulled on the line, but rigging it correctly is of course critical. (see tracy quote)

anyways, i feel comfortable jumping it, but despite people asking already, im not putting it on others peoples rigs. (however, one of the design goals was to make it possible to easily add this to any pin rig without big modifications.)
so if anyone is rigger enough to retrofit it himself (and is aware that he is then even more testjumper than already), im happy to share everything i got.

If you (I assume) are designing a whole new rig in the first place, why not just make it 1-pin? Then you don't have to use floor plates.

Personally, if someone offered a base container with a spring loaded pilot chute, I would probably buy it. I might end up figuring it out myself eventually. You could just throw a modified reserve PC on a Prism if you could figure out the cable housing.

Not designing a rig, merely presenting a potential design idea that could be used to mitigate total malfunctions. But as others have said, it violates the KISS principle.

Careful packing & gear inspection is the best lesson (re)learned from this incident.

Haha, good thing I was already an asshole.


I completely agree.

I am a bit baffled, and I am "hearing" a general lack of parachute system development and rigging knowledge.

Please explain your logic and perceived mechanics before I regress to a sarcastic asshole regarding your statements.

PS - as a moderator, this is probably a good time to split this discussion into Gear and Rigging.

I agree, this level of kibitzing should not be in Incidents.
Ian, you are out of your depth, once this thread is moved
I will join Paul in explaining why we both likely disagree.

RE: Sorcerer or any 2-parachute system

Again, break this off and several people would be more
comfortable chiming in. Most don't like how someone's
fatality thread usually devolves into extreme couponing.

Thread drift, agreed.

Still this incident has been an opportunity to evaluate a couple of factors that we should all be more aware of:
How our stress and level of being gripped at the exit makes us more vulnerable to overlooking basic safety checks, ( unacceptable with only one parachute and in the BASE environment in general )
And;
How we are becoming more complacent to our lack of preparation in an attempt to fly, larger, higher performance, and more technical, Wingsuits without having gone through some sort of progression to these suits in the BASE environment.

Regards, B.

 ***Personally, if someone offered a base container with a spring loaded pilot chute, I would probably buy it. I might end up figuring it out myself eventually. You could just throw a modified reserve PC on a Prism if you could figure out the cable housing.*****

Following your comments as so called moderator this forum is getting really entertaining. There is no difference between base wuffos Wikipedia and this any more.

Such comment above showing that your understanding of the equipment is really so shallow and basic that you really should consider to step off the moderator position.

Burn.

Obviously you have a lot more knowledge about spring loaded PCs than I do. I was basically envisioning a lengthened skydiving reserve container, with the closing loop on the flap, although maybe you could figure out a center mounted floor plate loop. Feel free to be a sarcastic asshole, I won't be offended.


Yeah, probably


Sorry I don't make wingsuits for a living I guess? I'm usually trying to get feedback from more experienced people like you, rather than trying to convince people to adopt a certain system. This isn't my place to come have a brand war and bash other people.

I probably should have looked this up before I posted that though. Obviously I've never deployed a spring loaded PC in the field. I would still enjoy tinkering with it though.

http://www.basejumper.com/...%20container;#590884

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF3wpTqdbEU

Woke up to reading that comment Fledge and pissed juice through my nose, It hurt hahahahha

Robi, I think people are on to something with this spring loaded pilot chute. We should use that for the reserve canopy, and then a 1 pin system for the main, and maybe someone could come up with a computer that could open the whole thing automatically if something went wrong. Hell it would probably be safer to jump a system like that out a plane anyway.


First of all, Michael was an awesome guy. I met him at KL in 2010 when he broke his back, and took him on his first jump back a couple of years later. That being said, he made a simple rigging error that cost him his life.

BASE gear works pretty darn well when used properly. Asylum sells static line kits that have a warning in the instructions that says something to the effect of "If you fail to rig this equipment properly, you are more than likely going to die". I feel like that warning should be on all base gear.

Adding extra levels of complexity is unlikely to save the type of person who would leave a pullup cord around a pilot chute (and seriously how hard is it to pack a pilot chute with your bare hands?), pack clamps into their packjob, forget to attach a pilot chute, or a bridle, or loop a bridge through their leg strap. The attention to detail required to properly pack and maintain the gear is the MINIMUM of what is required to be a base jumper. Changing the gear would imply that there is something wrong with the gear. There is something wrong with the people using the gear.

Yes. And clearly. But at some point deductive reasoning should kick in with some insight or another.

Attached are three excerpts from
messages where I explained to Ian
why most of us would not want to
use a spring loaded PC for BASE.


As for a two parachute system, one
of my friends moved and gave me
his Sorcerer to sell... took forever
because no one really wanted it.

Having 2 parachutes increases
Complexity, Weight, Cost, etc.
but reduces Reliability due to
simple human / pilot error.

Sadly , suicidal pack has been made and there is not so much to tell about it than simple one thing.

On Base courses it is essential to learn to pack the rig in proper sequence , BUT it is also as well important to show and pack misrouted bridle configuration in order to learn and recognize good from bad pack.

All that drama is pointless as the ''bridle lock'' which was packed in this case practically can not be open by pulling the bridle at all . The only way is to take the pin and pull the pin out by hand.

Exactly the same way PC in tow is packed when needed for testing in skydiving. The most secure and reliable way for imitating PC in tow ....

It is not about brand war as u suggesting Ian. It is about techical issues and overall understanding of parachuting equipment.
In 35 years if being in this field i have seen so much recycling of bad and terrible ideas that is really hard to understand why people does not use relevant sources in order to learn.

If you buy a Prism or Prism2 and ship it to me, I have the cable housing and I'll install a custom 42" base spring loaded PC system :P All for the expensive price of $450 lol why would you want a spring loaded pc? The things tend to tumble in low speed deployments and seems the spring would create lots of hesitation potential

Because reasons...

Actually I've had the idea for a while, specifically after the most recent fatality from a knotted PC. I've just never run it by anyone, probably because whenever I'm around knowledgable people I'm asking them more pertinent, pressing questions.

Yes, I know there are better ways of dealing with this like packing technique and throwing technique, both of which I've worked on and trained, but I guess I just have irrational fears. Just like I prefer jumping Velcro rigs because I know I can't give myself a pin lock. Totally irrational, I know, but I'm a scaredy cat.

Maybe not only the moderator-job is not for you.

If a 2 pin is too complicated to pack properly then maybe it time for some introspection?

I would like to "throw" another idea.

Check system in attachment (modified jpengel's original drawing).

If there is pin lock on one pin, another pin will open container.

None of those "Excerpts" mention anything useful. No mention of spring locks, container jamming, lack of kicker flaps, PC hesitations etc. etc.

...and single pin rig one can pack in exactly same way like the guy pack his... and get bridle lock...
On the field there is always nough candidates to proove it..
No worries

I have only deployed a spring loaded
pilot chute six times in 5,700 jumps.
All six times it worked perfectly fine.

Hence I was focusing on how much
more work and hassle they are to
pack versus a regular pilot chute,
cause that's my own experience.

As for the things you mentioned,
I knew about the hesitations but
both styles can do that, as for
the jamming, heard that before
but thought it was uncommon.

RE: "Kicker Flaps", I do know a
spring needs something to push
against, but that is the least of
the reasons why I dislike even
idea of using springs in BASE.

So novices can follow, the pack
tray and flaps of a reserve have
reinforcements inside them to
make the spring a launch pad.

Imagine two kids floating in a pool, one pushes the
other, the result is both kids absorb roughly half of
the force and move away from each other. Now
put one of the kids against the side of the pool.
Kid A pushes Kid B, the former does not move
and the latter absorbs the force completely.

Same with springs, compress one with both hands
then just let it go in the middle of the air and it
makes a boing noise and does not move much.

Now place a compressed spring against a solid wall
and when released the force will send it moving.

Same simple idea is used in many Martial Arts,
especially Tai Chi, if you get hit be light on your
feet but when you strike be planted, so you are
able to direct the force from your feet or foot
to the point of contact.

So a Spring Pilot Chute pushing against soft
pack job would produce shitty results, hence
the necessities of having strong reinforcements
which I have heard riggers call "Kick Plates".

Works 100% of the time then ;-) Careful or you will start sounding like idemallie.

Anyone that has worked with spring loaded rigs will disagree.Personally I have lost count of the amount of student containers I have seen jam on opening requiring instructor intervention. This is in reference to main trays not through loop reserves, although all the extra flaps on reserves are also a source of debate for many.

Spring loaded PC has been proven as most inconsistent type of PC. Since its introduction, spring laded PC was the main factor for delays in opening consistency. Russians and US tried with two PCs on same bridle in order to eliminate the lack of consistency but result was bad. Spring loaded PC is used on reserves and rescue parachutes just because there is no better solution (yet), but it is far from reliable system. Technically, problem is as follows, stronger spring you install, the better spring force you get. But stronger spring is also heavier, so it is bad for low speed openings. Further, if the spring is not compressed 100%, the launch force can be reduced as much as 80 %. Additionally, BASE rigs with spring PC should then be manufactured like skydiving rigs, stiff as brick and incorporating PC floor (launch) plate in order to ensure proper launch platform & force... All of that would introduce unnecessary complication ini existing BASE rigs setup, and even with all that the end result would still be poor. The reason why the deck in skydiving is 1000 ft is not because of canopy. It is because shitty extraction system known as spring loaded PC... and now you know why skyhook was designed.
Cheers, R
P.S. I have spent first few years of my skydiving career jumping rigs with spring loaded PC on the main canopy. To see something like this video was very common sight: https://youtu.be/GF3wpTqdbEU

Maybe you should show us your deep and complex understanding og English and explain how you can conflate moderator and subject matter expert.

Go back to skydiving.

Ah. The old bait and switch.

Don't feel bad Robi, she knows way more than me too :(

I thought that all this time and experience would have given either of us a leg to stand on, but nope.

...? loop tension would be an issue. If anchored on the bottom, top or through loop style, if it accidentally trapped the loop, it wouldn't cause a locked container (looking at you skydiving mfctrs that moved the cutters above the PC).

I understand instructors would have opinions on spring loaded PC hesitations, it happens often on student kit and might be fatal in base at terminal. This scenario is less likely sub terminal but now you have a large heavy spring weighing down the PC in a low speed air stream probably resulting in reduced snatch and delayed deployment, also both potential fatal in base. I may be wrong though, I'm not a rigger or instructor

Don't forget the tendency for a spring weighted pilot chute to fall over the front of the canopy after it opens. A long bridle makes it even more fun. The smaller the canopy, the more fun you have controlling the canopy with a heavy pilot chute over the nose.

As an AFF instructor since 1998, (and rigger since 1993) I have plenty of backed up opinions about spring loaded pilot chutes and would not consider reintroducing it into main stream sport parachuting.

As for Michael's incident, when I learned about reclosing the container at the exit, It took about 1 second to correctly guess what he did. I showed my housemates what I figured had happened. Stein confirmed it shortly after.

Learn some Rigging skills. Seriously. Basic Rigging skills shouldn't even be a question. Pay attention to other's , even if you have thousands of sky jumps and BASE jumps.

Good luck.

This conversation makes me imagine a table of PhDs and one loud 3 year old child. Rather than listening, the three year old is the loudest and he has opinions on everything. Nothing the three year old says is going to be profound and in fact, everything he says further confirms he is probably a bit slow for his age.
Now usually in these cases, Mommy's Little Miracle would just be tucked in for bed and that would be that. But it is a little different here. So the real question is this: how the hell is he in charge on the Internet?

I think it is because his user name is written in green.

Yes I'm sure Ian has usurped dozens of brilliant experienced BASEgods who were desperately vying for the coveted position of "guy who deletes the PuSSiEs BiG posts". I mean, look at them all lined up.

Has anyone else volunteered for this thankless job? In 12 years I can't remember an active moderator who engaged in their own personal posting, who didn't get ripped on continuously, all the moreso, for being moderators.

And seriously anyone who confuses the title "moderator" with "subject matter expert" needs to go re-take Internet 101.

Peoples' opinions have been expressed. At this point it's just bullying... it's ironic that a moderator should probably clean this thread up, but would immediately be accused of censoring people for badmouthing him.

Hes actually the guy that did tons of jumps in the last 10 years and then decided to step away because everyone kept dying.

Don't worry, keep in the sport and youll get there one day too! Happens to everyone in base given enough time.