Basejumper.com - archive

http://norwegianfirstnews.blogspot.ch/...er-jumping-from.html

Any first hand info on the incident or gear inspection? I heard of a mis-routed bridal.

Yes, there is first hand info, I'm sure someone more qualified than me will post it later on.

Shitty news . Was a class act, and liked by everyone around here .

Heard same info , but was also 2nd hand info passed down the line.
Something of Micheal doing opening & closing of Container system at the exit point . fix or repair of lower Closing Loop just before the jump . possible making Bridal misrouting or ? ..for container lock .
.

http://www.theinertia.com/...ntains-with-passion/

http://www.basejumper.com/...988753;post=2988760;

This is listed on the BFL

"The Jumper in question, whilst on the exit point, had realised his bottom pin had become dislodged. After taking off his gear and re-adjusting his pin into the closing loop, he had packed himself a pin lock malfunction. As you can see, it seems that whilst the jumper was on the exit point closing his bottom pin back, he has not taken the bridle and pc out of its stow and continued packing it differently as to how you would whilst packing after a jump. Because of the pilot chute still in its stow and the bridle tucked away under the bottom closing flap, he has effectively closed it with the bridle on the inside of the closing loop..
This caused the pilot chute when pulled would expand in the air and start the sequence but stopped when it reached the pin because of the way it was figured.

The jumper died immediately after pilot chute/bridle fully extracted and impacted at high speed.

Please, as a warning to others whilst base jumping, take the time to slow down and remember to do all the things you have been trained to do and not skip any steps whilst packing your ONLY parachute."

See attachments

I must not be seeing what the photos are trying to show exactly. Did he route the bridle above the lower closing loop?

Very sad.

It says the pilot chute fully extracted just before impact. So I guess I am a little confused as to how it is known that this was the configuration that lead to the accident. Was the gear recovered with the error still in place? Or is this just supposition?

either way, this would be a very easy mistake to make and very easy to miss even if a gear check was conducted.

It makes sense to me.

I read it that he packed a pin lock by routing the bridle around the closing loop under the flap, then went in with the PC inflated, bridle at full stretch and pin still locked.

It says that where? In Patto's post? I think he means that the pilot chute was extracted from the BOC, not that the pilot chute extracted the canopy, but hopefully he can clarify. It would be nice to have background on how much of this is conjecture though. Who inspected the gear and were either of the closing loops intact?

I still feel like it might be possible, though maybe not likely, to get a container open even after making that mistake. I'm going to test it out when I get a chance.

There are pictures on the BFL.

Why would you post such inaccurate , innapropriate, and just outright wrong information . If you repack your pin at the exit point , repack your bridle inside your rig (equal to a total mal in skydiving ), and jump it , you will not solve your problem before impact . Especially not in a wingsuit .
We know you are new in the sport , but please try and refrain from posting in a fatality thread your speculations on how you might be able to mid air fix a pretty unfixable problem .

He's not wrong: the bridle wasn't tied in a knot, it was routed around the loop. It is conceivable that with enough force you could overcome the added friction and pull the pin out, at which point the container would have opened. But that's not how it went. The PC was fully inflated and was probably putting way more force on the bridle than you could possibly apply by reaching around. In my opinion it was a total mal from the moment he left the cliff, but its not a wrong question to ask.

I was told that the rig was found in this configuration on the ground, so it is not speculation.

Also for the record, the pictures upthread are a re-creation on a different rig. Not the deceased's gear.

So, first, ^this. And second, I'd rather be wrong than silent. There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And I'm more than happy to look stupid if it means you can help me not kill myself.

When you say it was found on the ground in this configuration, that means the closing loops were intact? On a terminal jump? Was it a water "landing"? I imagine the wingsuit, and potentially any flare he attempted would have softened the impact.

I believe that the only way the malfunction could have been cleared would be to reach back, open the flap, and grab the bridle between the pins to pop them. A nearly impossible task, especially in a wingsuit.
I've taken this as a reminder to stay vigilant when performing any crucial packing or rigging procedures. Extracting the pilot chute and bridal from the boc before replacing the pin would have given Michael a much better visual of whether it was routed correctly.
BSBD
~J

And I'm not trying to experiment with solving any problems in flight (or on the ground). I'm trying to figure out why someone would possibly think that the canopy was out of the container and if it is even feasible in the right circumstances.

Correct,

It is very hard to pull up the tabs when the container is closed but that is what I am trying to show..

I have the picture of the gear with the configuration in place..

But will not show here out of consideration for family

Correct

To make it simpler for everyone..

He packed the bridle behind the bottom closing loop

It wont open I stood on my gear and pulled the bridle and pc nothing budged...

you would have to pull the bridle between the 2 pins for anything to happen good luck in full flight with wings on..

If you don't understand the writing Pm and I will try and explain it easier

I am Australian afterall

Glad 1 person got it

Yep, I just tried it as well, and I'm pretty comfortable saying it might as well be impossible on my rig. But part of that has to do with the grommet spacing, and it's possible that if you changed that you might be able to produce a different result. And yes, I realize that this is reinventing the wheel. And that a discussion of care in packing will probably save a lot more lives than the windmills I'm chasing.

Yes definitely.

I don't mean to be rude in any way, but what exactly is your base experience? I know you mean well and you definitely don't pretend to be anything you're not, but it seems like the moderators on this formum are a rather inexperienced jumper, and Tom, who I personally have never had an issue with, but who basically can't even post anymore because he'll get jumped all over due to several ongoing controversies. Just an interesting thought I had.

The moment I saw the picture it made sense. Thanks for demonstrating what led to yet another tradegy... It seems to be a total mal where the drag of the pilot chute will just increase the tension on the bottom closing loop and thus the tension on the bottom pin.

To everyon, including my self:

Check your gear and check your friends gear!! 3-rings, pin check, bridle check, chest strap/leg strap!! Spend the extra 30 seconds it takes to have a good look at each others gear on exit. It will save lives. Check it proper!

I have about 150 jumps and started jumping about 2 years ago. Probably about 100 of those jumps are from the bridge in Idaho, for a few reasons (related just as much to life circumstances as to progression) and the longest delay I've taken is probably 3-4 seconds. I do have a fair technical background and do a lot of my own testing, but I know that grants me no authority in BASE (nor should it). As you might have guessed, I took Tom's course.

I could speculate quite a bit as to why Tom made me a moderator, but I think that would end up being a far more extensive discussion than I care to have. However, I do think I see what you're getting at about experienced BASE jumpers moderating. The thing is, most forum users put way too much stock in the power of the moderators, like the color of our name grants us special immunity and privilege. The fact is, that most of my time moderating is spent making sure people don't post fatality names before families are notified, managing stickies, and deleting "PuSsIeS bIg" (I still love you Gerry). Maybe people think I'm cool because my name is green (it's funny how many people I know in person ask me how I got this job), but I see it more as a responsibility than a privilege.

I have talked to a particular individual who is highly skeptical of the moderation team who is under the impression that new jumpers will come to the forum, think my words are dogma, and go huck themselves off a cliff without any personal thought of their own. I think that's a fair point, and maybe I should tone it down a little, but I find that contextualizing my posts with some diluted form of "I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about" is a good compromise (because I still want people to tell me why my ideas are crazy). If people want to use me as their primary source of information, I think that's their personal choice, and I think that's a bad personal choice. Believe it or not, even with my low jump numbers, someone asked me to mentor them, and I quickly told them they were out of their mind. I'm not here to tell anyone what they should be doing, just to learn from those more experienced than me why I am wrong, and maybe come up with a neat idea once in a while.

I'm sorry for the length of this post, but hopefully it answers some questions and doesn't start any great discussion or debate. I'd rather stay on the topic of what happened in Norway for now.

EDIT: Now with more paragraphs

What MBA-PATTO wrote:
The jumper died immediately after pilot chute/bridle fully extracted and impacted at high speed

What MBA-PATTO meant:
The jumper's pilot chute/bridle fully extended and he died immediately after he impacted at high speed.

That's all. Just the perils of writing technically in a second or third or fourth language!

Hard to tell for sure from the photos but it looks to me like he did with his bridle what we do with a pullup cord when we position it under the pin to prevent friction heating the loop when we remove it.

Seems to me that the lesson here is if a pin pops and you have to re-rig it at the edge, re-rig it in proper sequence, the way you would on a normal pack job.

And on normal pack jobs, you don't stow the pilot chute first and then close the container! It seems to me that the proper "pin-out procedure" is to also pull the PC from the pouch and also pop the other pin and redo the entire pin-close-PC-stow in the proper order.

In this case, deviating from normal procedure created an anomaly he didn't notice.

Edited to add: I didn't read the whole thread before posting, so now I see Firflyr said a similar thing about procedures and Jakee clarified MBA-PATTO's comment too! Glad to see some consensus on these two important points.

All if this could be easily avoided if you/moderators have two accounts, one exclusively for moderating the forum (in green) and one black normal account to post content and questions...

Also remember that when the PC is inflated and pulling at terminal it is pulling with considerable force, all of which in this case was pulling the flaps UP and making the loop tension tighter and tighter.
I think there is pretty much no chance of a malfunction like this clearing on its own.

The PC is not adding that much force, but since this was a container lock due to misrouting the bridle it was a total malfunction from the start and nothing was going to open the container.

I was at Kjerag but left before this incident, I was told that the deceased was in a rush at the top and improvised a pull up cord?
Regardless, reclosing a container without extracting the bridle and PC has always been a bad idea and I have seen a couple of totals in Skydiving directly attributable to this practice.

I saw on the BFL that the deceased had a couple of hundred BASEjumps? Does anyone know approximately how many WS? How
many on his C2?
Impacting in the landing area at Kjerag in a WS seems strange and perhaps there might have been a slim chance of survival if he had been over the water?

Condolences, B.

It is standard for me to close that way (stowing first and then closing.) with BOC rigs. It helps distribute the PC in the pouch. It isnt a mystery that the bridle should be clear Pin to PC.

Out of sequence closing should be not be learned in a hurry up and jump situation IMHO.
Also, a gear check would not have worked if the checker didnt know this.
take care,
space

Rolling a magazine around the PC is a little bit easier and a lot safer.

I got to Lysebotn the day after this and spoke to a couple of people that were here when it happened, I was told it was his first jump on this wingsuit.

Then how would one know if one did it wrong?
I did a lot of 4-team packing in which means packing 5 rigs (4 plus camera) with 2 packers. the fifth rig would be packed by both.
1st one through with 2 rigs would start on the last rig by flaking and baggin the canopy and stowing the lines. The other would start prepping the container. then as the bagger would hand the bag off, he would start stowing the pc while the containering person was in the midst of closing.
As long as all the checks are in place, never a problem. Checking is part of the packing.
take care,
space

Michael had experience skydiving this suit but had not made a WS BASE jump prior to this trip to Norway. He made at least one WS base jump I believe a day earlier from Kjerag on the same suit.

Come on guys. A total is nearly impossible to clear. In skydiving this leads in almost 100% of the cases to a reserve opening. In base environment, there is almost no time due to opening low. People have gone in with a total jumping slick/track suits as well. IMHO, if you pack a total in base, consider yourself dead.....

Agreed, by the time you realize there is something significantly wrong, you're dead. As discussed in previous threads, stuff happens real fast with nothing out. The cause of this fatality was a rigging error. You do this on a slider down jump, you're just as dead as a wingsuit jump or other.

Thank you, I would guess that this contributed to his stress level on top and popping the pin and having to reclose the container wouldn't have been convenient. Seems he inadvertently packed a container lock while stressed.

I am not sure that I would have the presence of mind to flare my suit into the water but even as a mediocre flyer I am always opening over the water on the Kjerag exits.

I think there is a lot to be learned from the information that has come out of this unfortunate incident.

Regards, B.

Hope so..

However, I suppose we will have that (and all the other causes) happen again and again.
Weird, because most of the things that caused such accidents are known and no secrets.

Maybe it is like said before, we are humans. by default, we make mistakes.

Dude. Paragraphs?

Is there value in trying to tie his WS experience into this? If he was slick the outcome would have been the same. Seems independent of WS experience. While the added stress may be relevant...could have easily been other factors (multi-way, people waiting on him, spectators, general nerves of a new exit). Just seems entirely speculative.

In my opinion there is value in trying to understand what factors caused a jumper to screw up this badly.
I agree that it is speculative, but why did someone overlook the simplest of inspections?
I don't know about you, but when I am uncurrent in my WS and on the exit, I am quite nervous and try to focus my attention on calming myself and the task at hand.
Now if I was making my first or second ever WS BASEjump, on one of the largest, high performance straight jackets out there, and was suddenly confronted with gear problems on exit I would be very distracted.
I am just speaking for myself, but while you may not agree I hope you can at least grasp my point?

And then there is the question of, is a total malfunction remotely survivable if you have a giant WS and the option of taking it into the water?

Regards, B.

An interesting question. I believe that by the time the jumper realized they had a serious problem they would be...very low, and likely burn the remaining altitude frantically grasping around at the back of their container...meanwhile their speed would have transitioned from forward to vertical (wings collapsed). This would render the size of the suit pretty irrelevant. Perhaps an intentional flare and water landing is survivable, but in my opinion, it is not a realistic "plan b" to a total mal in a big WS.

Just to add a little more to think about;
A couple of years ago a highly experienced and respected BASE jumper was transitioning to a new larger suit and he overlooked the fact that he didn't have a Pilot Chute attached to the bridle stowed in his BOC. It would seem at least partially due to the stress of the situation.
Now most people would say that he was dead before he left the exit,... and most likely if he had not been flying a WS he would have been....however, when realizing at deployment his gross screw up, he had the presence of mind to open his container, and again, since this was a WS flight the canopy was extracted from the container and he survived.
There has been one intentional WS landing without a parachute where the jumper survived, (and no it wasn't Jeb ), and there has been more than one unintentional landing without a canopy that has been survived

And just for further consideration, I believe that if the deceased in this incident been jumping a Sorcerer and had the presence of mind to react to his dilemma he would have survived, as would probably a number of other BASE fatalities.

The technology has been out there for over 20 yrs and now with lighter weight, smaller volume canopies and better material options for containers maybe it's time someone considered building a newer, lighter, improved, two canopy system?

Regards,B.

Something like the "Jeb" Mirage ?

Stealthy,

Imagine the people whinging then some people cant even hike with a normal rig let alone a lite weight one ... They think there climbing Everest and need everything liteweight when 70 percent catch a cable car and walk 5 mins down hill or catch a base bus for a 15 mins walk...

Hate to see anyone have to do anything like a 5 hour hike for one ahhahahahhah

No, I was thinking more of a redesigned More aerodynamic, lighter,Sorcerer with a small, light weight reserve and BASE main, with some thought going into the design of how a WIngsuiter could easily deploy an outside of the container reserve PC, like the original Sorcerer. In other words a two canopy BASE specific rig built by a BASE manufacturer, and not a Skydiving rig marketed towards BASEjumpers.

If you planned for it to be an at least I'm not dead scenario then you could use a smaller round as the reserve to further reduce weight/size. Landing will suck but at least you are not dead.
Another issue is sales. You still need to recover your R and D costs and I truly don't believe a two canopy rig will sell all that many units.

Sadly , suicidal pack has been made and there is not so much to tell about it than simple one thing.

On Base courses it is essential to learn to pack the rig in proper sequence , BUT it is also as well important to show and pack misrouted bridle configuration in order to learn and recognize good from bad pack.

All that drama is pointless as the ''bridle lock'' which was packed in this case practically can not be open by pulling the bridle at all . The only way is to take the pin and pull the pin out by hand.

Exactly the same way PC in tow is packed when needed for testing in skydiving. The most secure and reliable way for imitating PC in tow ....

Not a reply to Robi, but it is surprisingly challenging to pack a total in a BASE rig that will stick through the snatch force of a properly sized PC from terminal. I was told by someone who claimed to be one of the people that examined gear of a total in LB a long while ago that the jumper that had the accident had packed his bridle that messed up way every jump - and so did his friends. Supposedly they were all surprised when they were told they were packing themselves malfunctions.

Whoa! Did I just read what I think I did?
It is the easiest thing in the world to pack a total on a BASE or Skydiving rig. I will do it in two minutes, and you will never extract the pin.

Check your gear!

Regards,B.

That's not what I meant at all... yes, if you go on a mission to end your own life you will succeed.

Sorry, I just checked your profile and can see that you are not a jumper.
So no wonder you would make such a stupid comment.

Sorry for actually thinking that you knew anything.

Regards, B
.

... you mean the tandem at bridge day doesn't count? FUCK.