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Looking at buying my first rig. Right now im between an Apex summit and Squirrel Kn for a container.

Not sure which to get. If they both have what you want does it just come down to looks and how it fits?

Any pros or cons to buying one over the other?

Thanks.

They (and pretty much every other rig from a major manufacturer) are both totally fine in terms of function. It mostly comes down to personal preference, based on fit, comfort ease of packing, etc.

What kind of jumping do you expect to do? Mostly slider up or slider down? Or a pretty even mix of both?

Thanks for the reply Tom. I'm looking for the most versatility I can get. Probably mostly slider down but I really would like to get something I can use for terminal jumps and possibly use for wingsuiting(probably won't happen but id like to keep it possible with whatever I get). I'd rather make this purchase once if at all possible. Both have a 3 ring release and dual pin. I'm just not sure if there's any differences I should be looking for aside from looks and fit.

Buy a brand new lightly loaded OSP and a cheap ass Velcro rig (they sell anywhere from $200-$400). Jump the shit out of it. The canopy is the most crucial component and at the beginning most of what you will be jumping anyway you should be able to do with a Velcro rig (unless you start jumping terminal right away). Later on sell the Velcro rig for almost the same price you bought it and buy the rig you like the most (seriously just grab the one you like the most out the major manufacturers...they all do the job so comes down to how you personally like the rig). Avoid spending 3K on an ultra light super duper rig with all bells and whistles that you end up only doing low static lines on and end up selling here 5 jumps later. Just my .2 cents.

If you're going to sell it and "hopefully" break even later, why not just buy a rig you would want right from the start?

Sure. That's an option too. Nothing wrong with that. What I have seen is people with no experience in BASE end up buying the gear they "want", which after more experience and exposure to other jumper's gears and the actual vs the expected BASE environment end up selling it and buying something else. This can add up quickly and you end up loosing couple hundred bucks. The other option is you buy cheaper used gear without compromising safety and after more exposure the "want" becomes more stable and then you drop money in gear that you are more likely to keep. Again, I am not saying this is the way to go. It is just a point of view. My experience has shown me that jumpers tend to stay with gear they have tried and liked vs gear they got because of somebody else opinion. And now a few emojis so we don't take ourselves too serious

Like Tom said, both of these rigs (Summit and Kn) probably fit quite well to your requirements (as do any other modern 2 pin rig). All of the moderns "basic" 2-pin rigs (by saying basic I´m excluding the new ultralight containers such as the JackDaw) will get the job done in all of the above scenarios. What you do want to be looking at on top of the basic fit, price, options etc is that what´s the crew you´re going to be jumping with using and where are you located?

"what´s the crew you´re going to be jumping with using" - Why does this matter? As said above, any of the moderns rigs will get the job done. Howeverm if you choose to buy a rig that no one in your crew has ever seen or ever used, you will be on your own with it. Maybe not a big deal as the rigs mainly are just 4 flaps and 2 pins so they all work the same but if you have experienced people around using the same gear as you havem you have quite good possibility on receiving good tips wht the guys have noticed along the way on packing and jumping them.

"where are you located" - Once again, all the modern rigs will get the job done so personally I would lean towards the selection of your nearest manufacturer (or at least the manufacturer who has a proper representative close by). If there is any problems with the product it is much easier to handle any post production issues with the manufacturer who 1) is in the same country (and time zone) with you and 2) speaks the same language than you.

Located in California. Apex is just a few hours south. Guys I'm jumping with aren't familiar with apex rigs. One uses squirrel kn. I tried it on and it felt good, but I've been kind of partial to the apex summit -although I've never tried one on.

I'm a buy once cry once kind of guy, if it means waiting a but I'm ok with that but I know turn around on rigs can be months and we have a trip to perrine in may that I want my own rig for.


I want something I can shell out the cash for once and have to last many years for terminal, sub terminal, and maybe wingsuiting years from now if possible. I have about $3,500.00 saved for it.

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate the advice on buying a Velcro rig and jumping the shit out of it but- id like to buy something good once. From what I've read and heard Velcro is bad ju ju. I have the money and leaning towards apex summit bottomless container DP. If no one advises against it it think that's what I'll measure and purchase, buy a used canopy and throw it in there.

Check out the BFL. I think only one Fatal was using a Velcro. Pin closed rigs have been involved in much more fatals. Trick is with Velcro is that one must maintain it. Just order extra shrivelflaps if one wants to maintain the grabbage of the Velcro. If one wants to be lazy, a pin rig is ok if one wants to trade ease of packing for a higher risk of a container lock.
take care,
space

Yup, all modern two pin rigs are great. Ill throw a vote in for asylum. Marty's lead times are shorter than they've been in years. In my humble opinion, highest quality rigs on the market. I've got a rig with almost 900 jumps, and it looks just as good as the day I got it. Considering the mass production by some other places, Marty should call his rigs "artisnal" and charge more.

Mass production? do you mean that? (Hey, I need 500 custom built harnesses/container by friday next week)
Get real.
Take care,
space

I have 2pin and velcro...admittely feel so much safer with velcro as id prefer a premature on a climb up then a pin lock but im a slider down jumper so yeh on low shit with pin rigs i have pins almost all the way out due to paranoia i would never jump with the pins pushed all the way in like some people do ....watchthybridle.com shows the many 2pin scenarios and possibilities of what can happen....i should note that i wouldnt use velcro for arials etc...well not mine anyway i can bust it open just by pussing my shoulders forwards i have to really try but yeh it happens

You know you can go visit Apex, right?

Drive down and meet Todd, Steve, and the team that will be building your gear for you. They are great guys and will gladly give you a tour of the shop, discuss your options with you, and even measure you for a perfect fit.

Living in CA makes Apex a very attractive option, in my view. I've been to the shop a few times to have damaged gear inspected for airworthiness.

If you haven't noticed, squirrel completely changed the wingsuit game and what we thought about lead times and production, and they are on their way to completely changing the base container game. One guy standing in a shop in auburn vs an entire production facility in another country. I couldn't even guess what the max production capability of squirrel would be in a month, maybe 50 wingsuits and 50 containers plus canopies. Even more? Id call that mass production as it comes to the base world.

If you haven't looked into Skunk Ape BASE I'd give them a look over. you can pretty much do everything you want with them. Yes they are a newer company and have a slightly different design but no need to worry. Jeff knows what he is doing. You can get a rig with all the bells and whistles and get it completely custom and still gunna be cheaper than what you'd pay for an Apex, by a few hundred. On top of that the build time is quite quick. I think I had my in two weeks and it only took that long because I wanted to have the first black fur pin protector flap. I love this this rig and I have jumped quite a few rigs. I also leave the Pin protector flap in place for every jump, including low FF and static lines. Ive taken it down to 150' and never worried about a pin lock due to a container malfunction. Plus it will save you a lot of money to get you a good canopy. Like they said above, a canopy is a lot more important than the container you have starting out.

Plus- Fluffy (Jeff) is just an awesome dude. I was blown away when I saw the rigs he was pumping out, I had no idea he was that talented.

Ppros were always my go to- love those rigs. Apex makes awesome stuff too- and there people are top notch as well. Since OP lives in socal, I would highly suggest driving over there and meeting Todd. I bet that answers his question.

Go with Apex gear!

Ok so I'm biased, maybe you can tell. Regardless, Apex gear is top notch and built in the US. It’s actually all designed and built in Murrieta, CA. You’re more than welcome to come by to chat, call, or email us about our gear. If you’re shopping for gear let us know a few days before your visit and we will try to have something for you to try on in an appropriate size.
Our delivery time is 6 weeks. I think that’s respectable. It will vary during the year as we move into the busier spring and summer season. We have a good supply of stock equipment which can be shipped quickly (1 day on stock canopies, 10 business days on stock containers with a custom built harness).
We stand behind our gear and are always here for the after-purchase support you deserve.
Someone mentioned price in the earlier post. In the past we have been more expensive. I would recommend you look again. Our new products like Lobo and FLiK II have new pricing structures. We’ve eliminated many of the options and improved manufacturing techniques which gives us the ability to be more competitive.
Yes, Marty has built some nice rigs, he learned from the best.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Todd Shoebotham
Apex BASE
todd@apexbase.com

I bought a brand spanking new summit before jumping and I've been super happy with it. It packs easily, i like the crossover style pin flap, its pretty comfy(as you'd hope out of a custom rig!) great rig IMO

But a kN is cheaper by a bit.

I will add, Apex has given me absolutely fantastic customer service

Squirrel has one more container explosion during deployment than any other manufacturer.

What happened?

...which was caused by a design used by every other container manufacturer.

And Squirrel put the R&D in to correct it and prevent it from happening in the future. Not every other manufacturer has done that.

The integrated risers on a StrongLite was loaded in an unexpected way, causing a peel force on the risers which damaged the system. Basically a pull during strong track with a heavy jumper. This literally could have happened to any other rig.

Further discussion here:

http://www.basejumper.com/...=stronglite;#2976082

So you can personally vouch for the construction of all containers in the industry? The container was under built. Plain and simple. It has not happened to any other container for that exact reason.

"Unexpected way"?!?!? Really.... Because nobody ever pulls in a track base jumping.

It's dangerous for you to make such misinformed and incorrect statements.

About the only truth in what you've said is that Squirrel did correct their design.

Other manufacturers had this correct long before.

No, I can't vouch for every other BASE container in the industry. I don't know of any manufacturers that were making integrated risers with a different method though. Do you? How was it different?


I meant that Squirrel didn't expect it (based on the load testing they did with their container). What kind of load testing had other manufacturers done on the peel force of their risers?


I think it is dangerous to make incorrect and misinformed statements too. That's why I'd like you to tell me why I'm wrong. I'm willing to accept that I'm totally wrong and you're totally right, but I'd like to understand what makes it so. Just telling me I'm incorrect doesn't promote knowledge in the community. That's why I like to discuss these things, so we can all learn. Obviously my understanding of gear pales in comparison to yours, so hopefully you can enlighten me.

What I gathered from that thread I linked earlier was, integrated risers were copied originally from a pilot bailout rig, with a confluence wrap. That was the method used for all integrated risers from that point until the Squirrel incident. What did Squirrel do differently?

You're out of your element Donny.

Yes the system used by squirrel was basically identical to every other manufacturer at the time. Adrenaline has a different riser attachment option now, and asylum has changed their reenforcements along with squirrel. Cant speak to what exactly apex had or has changed personally.

Similar to when the inside A lines on the feather broke on a brutally hard opening a few years back. Everyone in the industry was using the same configuration, it just happened to be that canopy in that particular incident when something happened. All the manufacturers have also changed from cascaded 400 Inside A lines (some are stronger and not cascaded, some just stronger, but all changed). Also if you continue to do your research, adrenaline has had containers "explode" as you say on several occasions as well.

Ps, if you are a heavy guy and track basically straight head down, you might have a hard opening from time to time.

"Totally wrong" and "totally right"? Shit man, I didn't peg you as someone tied to absolutes. Thought you were more a 50/50 guy.

Anyway, we're splitting hairs.

There are subtle (and some not-so-subtle) differences in each manufacturer's harnesses--before and after the incident.

I'm not here to take a shit on Squirrel or their Stronglite, but I think it's unwise to cast a blanket "if it could happen to theirs it could happen to any manufacturer's rigs". They are not all exactly the same.

But yes, they all seem to have taken a different look at it from this incident and taken action so none of their rigs explode. And Squirrel fixed theirs and tested, as well.

My Zak2 has a design feature ("soft bars") to prevent the failure mode you just described for integrated risers.

Well, at least I was right about pegging you as someone who would troll me to no end.

But yes, it seems you bring up very good points and that I was mistaken.

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2976105#2976105

Based on what was written before, the original design used a different construction material. So it really wasn't the same design. I'm glad I got to learn something new today. Also, some manufacturers didn't use a confluence wrap prior to this at all, so saying "every" manufacturer is far from accurate. There was (and maybe still is?) a wide variation in designs.

TheMoreYouKnow

Yeah, dude. I trolled you. Part levity, but partly this...

You've got like a year in the sport and to be fair, you could have learned a lot in that time. I'll give you that.

But the problem is that for the uninitiated (especially in "BASE Beginners"), any new or not-even-yet-a-jumper logs into this site, sees an absolute statement from you or any other GreenName or far worse a RedName moderator and they infer authority in the sport that's not deserved. But they won't know it and THAT, my friend, IS dangerous.

It's why I've called this a little marketing site. Agree or not, it's used and moderated that way.

But I'll be the first to admit, I'm not right about everything, either. I've always known that, but the trolling does keep this site honest...when posts are allowed to live, that is.

To a newbie this is probably the most valuable statement in this thread. Many people have only a partial understanding, or worse, absolutely no clue at all and this thread is yet another example of how people, intentional or otherwise, continue to spread mis-information.

And partly your online crusade to fulfill a personal vendetta.

You explained the technical side to me via PM. I thought everyone else could benefit from knowing specifically what you explained. I guess you just see it as another opportunity to tear people down.

I'm somewhat appalled that someone who has only been in this sport a year is a moderator! pretty fucked up!

Moderator and mentor are completely different roles and have completely different skill sets. I have no problem with a relative n00b being a mod.
But when a moderator who does not have the experience to be a mentor starts acting like a mentor, then many will listen assuming he does have the experience. That is a flaw.
Strictly speaking the moderator should reprimand himself and threaten to gag/ban himself if he was doing his job properly ;)

I like the new style moderator play here. Hilarious indeed :)

Maybe it is better for a noob base jumper/moderator to moderate in moderation.

Turn my name green. I'll do it.

You would be great Tim!!

I volunteer to not moderate anything and explore thought freely.

Dude. Just because the concept is shared it doesn't mean the execution is equal.

ALL of the major containers work GREAT!
If used as Intended

I too highly recommend jumpers lean towards
any manufacturer that they very live close to.

I met and worked with Robert of Morpheus before
he sadly drowned. If I lived within driving distance
to Todd or Marty or Jeff or Squirrel then sure I would
have been very willing to entertain those options...

Lastly, anything can be used beyond its intended
limits of use and cause failure, P E R I O D.

Like the colour green?

Anyone know where Squirrel are located?

I just ordered a rig from them and am considering going there to pick it up, to not have to risk paying customs. Bastards charging 33% on stuff from the US...

I read somwhere that the gear is made in Vietnam, but I'm guessing they do QC on it in the US before shipping to customers. Anyway, they don't have anything on their website about where they are actually at. Travelling more than anything I suspect.

Seattle

Buy from who you want to support most.
for me that = asylum 7 apex (BR)

I believe the home base is in Seattle (e.g. Matt and Mike live there), but my understanding is that all manufacturing is done in Vietnam.

I'm planning a BASE FJC very soon and I see a Gargoyle set up for sale in classifieds here. Is it a floating pin bridle that is mentioned on the tricky thread or can Gargoyles have non-floating pin bridles?

Floating pin has never been an original set up on Morpheus rigs, it is a modification the (few) owners desides to do on their own...

Thank you! I'm planning on picking up the rig in two days. Your response helps me.

John

Floating pins are bad for your health. Please, do not use one.

You will die if you jump a gargoyle!

I have decided against the Gargoyle purchase. Thanks for the feedback.

Is an APEX DP appropriate for a new jumper? The dual pin is not something I understand at this point. Does that increase complexity? The manual online says it's not meant for handheld PC deployments.

Thanks

Getting advice on issues this simple from an internet forum may be a mistake.

You're far better off to ask these questions during your course, and then purchase gear after the course, with a real world basis for your decision.

The Gargoyle and the DP (and any other modern 2 pin rig from a major manufacturer--including Perigee Pro, KN and Zak) are going to be fine choices for a first container.

I'd recommend worrying less about the container, and thinking more about the canopy, but bottom line I'd recommend getting some more experience and making a decision about gear purchase _after_ your initial training.

I'm.going to take your advice and put the gear purchase idea on hold. I'll wait and learn on my FJC what I should be looking for.

Thanks

John

Why? I would not order a new container from them ever again and their customer service sucks but if you can find a good deal on a used one that is actually built for the size of canopy you are using they work fine.

I have one too, I was just fucking around with the guy. My slider-down rig is a gargoyle.

HAHA!! I jump one and have almost died several times.

Thanks for proving my point!

FWIW, I ordered a new one in 2013 and it fits my canopy well. I know other people have had poor experiences, and I don't think I would buy another new one, but my experience was pretty positive (other than a ridiculously long wait time). It's pretty hit or miss, but when it hit's it works well.

I have jumped these rigs many times and
they work great, from 145 feet or a plane.

Yes, since Rob (RIP) sadly drowned the
customer service and wait times have
declined but the gear is still solid!

That is not exactly what it says. It says it is "intended" for stowed jumps. It also says you can jump handheld, and suggests to open the pin protector flap if you do so (15.3-2, p48). The word choice in the manual indeed is a little confusing/weird at times. That is why, to TomA's point, in-person teaching is key. Depending on your future jumping circumstances, you may find that going handheld with a DP is frequently the safest option.

Reading & preparation is good. but it needs training to go along with it. Have fun at your FJC!

I chose TL as my first container few years ago, and still happy with it. Great choice for any type of jumps. Now replaced my first Flik with Lynx with through loop channel, and rig looks super sexy and feels great :) I really don't get why does anybody need DP, Zak or any other fat and short container.

Thanks everyone. I'm busy watching packing videos and only two more sleeps until I'll be in Twin Falls. I feel much better not having to decide on a container.

Thanks for watching out for the FNG.

John

Sweet looking wingsuit, you should post more pics of that!

attached one more

I think I'll start a separate topic about these wingsuits, btw. They are awesome

your'e goddamned right!!!!
=)

Finally... That scored you an A+

What are the chances of a premature opening taking amvelcro rig to terminal?

100%

I knew it would be way up there but do you think it's actually 100%? Does the rushing air just make its way under the flaps? I'd love to see video footage of the container when someone takes it terminal and gets an early opening. Probably not very interesting at all but I'm kind of a nerd like that.

Velcro has been taken to terminal many times especially in the 90s and works fine if it is well maintained. But I would not do it now since pins are safer for terminal

I have probably 40 terminal jumps on a perigee 2, about 10 of those flying an s-fly expert never had an issue. Its not ideal these days, but plenty of people have done it.

If the velcro is in good shape it's not a problem at all. I've seen a Perigee II head down out of an aircraft for 40 seconds.

I wouldn't recommend flying a wing suit or going head down at terminal, but there were plenty of successful terminal jumps made before pin rigs were invented.

They come with sewn in drink holders on the front side!!

On the plus side flogged out Velcro u never have to worry about a container lock etc lol may come out early and I can’t find the pic but there’s a really good one of a lad jumping kl tower doing a gainer and busting the Velcro open ...better early then never I suppose ha ha

If this is your first container, and you want to get into WS jumps, by the time you are ready to WS BASE, many designs will have come and gone and when you’re ready to buy then, you’ll be much more educated and capable of making your own decisions.

For now, get what fits and looks best and learn everything about it. Good luck.

This thread is super old. I’ve been jumping the Apex Summit for almost 2 years now.

AFAIK all modern containers are airworthy / adequate.

it pretty much comes down to which manufacturer YOU choose to support.

Enjoy the Apex Summit.
They are an excellent choice.

Ps. Velcro rigs are most definately NOT bad juju if used in the appropriate application.
In fact, a well maintained velcro rig is the BEST choice IMO for up to about 5 second delays if you are not doing aerials.
I've got more than 500 jumps on them for that application.

IMO you should spend as much time selecting your canopy as your container. it is at least as important if not more so than a "backpack with four flaps".
AND
Definitely don't just "throw it in there".

.
Yes, I know i'm late to this thread, but I'm having a difficult time understanding why some people on this thread focus on the container choice and not the canopy choice.

not true.
have you ever jumped a velcro rig??

i made several jumps in yosemite using a velcro rig prior to the advent of pin rigs.
I just passed a few loops of rigger seal thread thru the leading edge of the shrivel flap to the container to keep the flap from peeling too early.

I wonder how many new Velcro rigs are getting produced these days, I’d bet very very few, and possibly even none. Nothing wrong with Velcro if you are doing slider down jumps, where you don’t ever climb anything narrow geared up, never have to bend over a bunch, and never do aerials. Or you can buy a pin rig, which can be used for any type of jumping. I’d also wager for the average person, closing a Velcro rig is harder, and the Velcro requires more constant inspection and maintanence (there’s more retards than riggers in base). That being said, hearing that Velcro rip is a great noise when you’re a scared young jumper (I mean in freefall, not all the other times you hear it start ripping).

Ps, that story about tacking your flap for yosemite jumps is amazing!

We still see new orders for velcro rigs from time to time. The Morpheus Genesis is the most popular one to order new, because of the over/under tuck flap system. It's a good design, and addresses many of the perceived shortcomings of velcro rigs at high airspeeds very well.

The real advantage of velcro rigs today is price, though. People who've never jumped one are terrified of them, simply out of ignorance. They see it as new and different, and therefore they fear it and must reject it. So you can buy secondhand velcro rigs for almost nothing if you keep an eye out. I had a friend buy two brand new Perigee II's in europe a couple of years ago, with risers and toggles, for $150 (total). He basically bought a set of risers and toggles at regular price, got another set of risers for half price, and got the two Perigee II's for free. If you're looking for a back up rig, or something to hold a round, or something for high bust/gear confiscation loads, or if you're just a college student living on ramen noodles, it's hard to argue with prices like that.

 

Velcro 4 Way in 2017

Douggs was using Coombsey's Velcro Rig