Basejumper.com - archive

What would you do if you bumped into the following FJC testimonial on a BASE school page (translated below for your convenience):

http://baseguru.ru/event/thailandcoach

Andrey Aksenov, took FJC course with Ratmir at 400' cliff in Crimea from 13 till19 of May 2015: "Just got back and so stoked! First day and half the weather was shit, which helped us to thoroughly go through the theory and packing. Then we jumped our asses off! I have made 7 jumps: 2 PCA, 2 semi-PCA, and 3 freefall. Thank you Ratmir, i will recommend his course to every skydiver interested in BASE jumping!"

This is not a troll, it is for real. This particular testimonial is actually chosen by Ratmir to advertise his Tonsai trips on his school page. Sadly, this is also the biggest student factory in Russia.

Obviously, it's a Russian thing, but you are still likely to bump into Ratmir and his students at your playgrounds in Europe - or in Thailand, as presently is. He just honestly doesn't get it: what's wrong, the customer pays and (usually) goes home happy?

FJCs in Russia are still stuck at stone age, for a variety of reasons, and a bit of education could go a long way if you want to email the school, or say a word or two here or when you bump into them on the road. General wisdom of teaching 1st time students off low cliff or low antennas (majority of russian students) could be a topic that will save lives and limbs - and possibly some foreign objects, if the oil ever goes back up! ;)

Another point that just cries out loud for education: object avoidance drills. They are generally unheard of in mother Russia. Recent Russian BASE forum poll showed 0% of people had them taught, 11% tried on their own, 50% never tried any kind of object avoidance at all, and the rest already struck an object or turned away by luck. My efforts to explain to Ratmir that it isn't wise to let people who can't turn a 180 to jump off a slider-down cliff, hit the wall (pardon the pun). I'd hope the wise words from foreign experts might have a better outcome.

There's some hope here: for now at least, after a private discussion, Ratmir is not going to do PCA's in Tonsai. Practical object avoidance, however, remains an alien concept.

Tom, Marta & Jimmy, Douggs, Johnny Utah, anybody else? Please, fire away:

http://baseguru.ru
dmz66@mail.ru
+79056372219

I want to learn how to do a semi-PCA!

He means most probably the intencional dropping of the PC.

I have also heard them called:

Freefall Assist

Long story short there Russian aka not pussies like the rest of the world.....dont think they really care what anyone thinks of there methods...there choice there life

https://youtu.be/PqzNaBXh6z0

I was going to stay out of this one way shit throwing comp but this is a second thread attacking Ratmir so I thought I'd voice my opinion on the guy. I don't know him that well but we'll enough to respond.

Russia does not have legal, jumpable bridges so they have to do with what they have.

Ratmir's English is very basic so I don't know if what he is all about comes across correctly to the English speaking audience. He is -- I would argue -- one of the, if not -- the most -- professional trainers in Russia. His approach, his technique, the language he uses to deliver training (in Russian, obviously) are no different to US trainers. He is super anal about safety and -- from what I have seen personally -- is even over-cautious at times with his students.

He does appear to be teaching object avoidance at Limska Draga using training aids at least. There is an article about it on his website.

Many people have been pca-ed off Ton Sai wall, some without any skydive experience. Many experienced trainers got away with it there. Has something changed all of a sudden?

I am not quite sure what is your personal beef with Ratmir. Is there a clear and imminent risk of loosing Ton Sai in case someone, god forbid, strikes the wall there? Because seriously, without any bullshit, Ratmir is the safest (or one of the top) trainers in Russia and if any Russian can lay out the risks to another Russian then it would be him. I have zeroest doubt that his students jump without realizing the risks they are being exposed to.

Just because they don't have potato bridge at their disposal it does not mean that they cannot deliver safe enough training on the objects they do have.

"semi pca" is a very common technique in Russia. it is basically exactly like a normal pca except if the student exits well, with good bp etc then the trainer essentially drops the PC when the bridle stretches without popping the pins. but if the trainer is not fully satisfied with the students exit, they just carry out the standard pca procedure.

Teaching FJC at low cliffs. This wouldn't do even in Oz.


You couldn't have said it better

It's not a course I would do but they have done their research, chosen him, payed him going to travel to the other side of the world with him and random jumpers that bump into them should question their instructors methods?
Without knowing him or the new jumpers, seems a bit much.

No, they haven't done any research. Kids like the one in the testimonial haven't got a clue. That's is exactly a point of this discussion - if you call yourself a guru and tell students it's ok to learn on a small cliff, they tend to believe it is ok.

I know of soo many aussies that learnt base way sketchier than these russians are doing lol.......not smart yeh probably but not everyone is a pussy and has to travel across the would to do a fjc at some bridge.....and im sure the russians feel the same way and would rather go in than take a fjc course at a pussy bridge in usa with arrogorant Americans hahah

Your right, they can die the way they want. But at least they can be smart and bounce @home, not on foreign cliff ... thanks

BASE jumping isn't rocket science. Lower expectations around people who does that is mandatory
BASE jumping use to have self proclaimed teachers from very beginning and that did not changed till today.
BASE jumping has no regulation , so no mistakes can be done.
BASE jumping is fast progressing activity where use to be a student after 15 jumps become teacher...so there is still some hope left that problems will get self sorted.
BASE jumping is the only activity where same problems getting back every now and then, showing that there is no problems really as any one does whatever they want.

relax Yuri, all is perfectly OK.
PS. That video of taking UT-15 off the tower is super nice and safe as well. ( Yes , round canopies does the job too)

I agree, the UT-15 jump seemed reasonable to me.

Ive done that with a round but off low a bridge over water coz i was being a pussy lol plus id never seen it done before so wasnt sure how it was gonna go...a gust would drag u off early but so it's pretty sketchy

You know what they say: "Russians are the new Australians". You just had it backwards (and soft!)

Hmmmm, last time I checked, the Ozzy "fjc" generally involves hanging out with a bunch of loose cunts drinking and doing lines of coke until it gets dark (coz there are no legal objects on the island). You then drive to a local 50 meter cliff while drinking beer on the way. The pre jump brief uncovers that a cliff strike IS your landing, you just need to crash into a less vertical and loosely overgrown section of the rock.

And if the jumper does get hurt, he would be expected to chew his limb off and crawl back out while dragging the said limb in his teeth in vain hope that the limb will get reattached by a doctor, whom you would have to give a fake story about falling off a skate board (because base is illegal, remember?). And while you travel those 657km to the nearest hospital, the only pain management would be a bong and maybe an ice pipe (if you're lucky).

And all that would be going on while the rest of the crew would be mocking the fuck out of you, making fun of your pain-face and drawing cocks on your forehead while you're unconscious.



You couldn't have said it better
...

Lol))) auto correct changed the phrase completely by replacing a poorly spelled "while all" to "without". Typing on a phone.

Ratmir had a super nasty cliff strike in his early career and he is more than capable of relaying that first hand experience onto his students.

Come on, I don't know what the situation is like in the states and maybe you, fellas, do get those mums and dads folks walking out of their local McDonald's going: "Hey, I gusto get myself one of them base courses" after which they become a liability of their trainer who has to chew all the knowledge and puts it in their mouth (figuratively speaking) . As for the rest of the world, folks are rather across the risks involved with base jumping from the get go. At least that has been my experience so far.

He had more than one. There's no better way to relay this experience then by letting them experience it first-hand, eh? Remeber - we ain't talking about a bridge course you've bumped into, but about the same course he does at the local ukrainian low cliff.


You know, mate, BASE is very much like sex: going hard for 30 seconds is a miserable failure. To be successful, you also need longevity

A long while ago i showed up in Sydney without gear, fully intending to stick with sightseeing. Instead, i was handed a spare rig and driven into Blue Mountains. By the end of fun-filled weekend i could choose from 7 sets of gear that their owners wouldn't need any time soon. I confess that i did put some of them to good use.

I suppose what i want to say is that it's way more fun to draw cocks on somebody else's forehead while keeping your own intact - but for each his own

If he doesnt have an local partner, he will be goone long time before he can make it a business down there. I have seen it before, and it will happen again. Useally a bust with weed either he got some or not, or just emmigration shows up and make him pay.

Paying protection fee will cost him more than he can make

I am glad that the conversation moved on from attacking a person to discussion of fun filled carnage of Ozzy mayhem which is always exciting to recite.


Pardon me, Sir, for being overly pedantic about this, but you seem to have made seven orthographic mistakes in the word "Russian" above. Or... could it be that this is the whole reason for your attack?

Far out, the dude (being a professional wing suite trainer) is running a wing-suite camp at Pattaya DZ and on the back of that event has posted an invite on his website for any interested BASE jumpers to tag along for some Ton Sai cliff jumps. He is not setting up a school there, he is not running an FJC (at least I saw no evidence of that in his post), it's a bunch of dudes going for a BASE trip to Ton Sai and he will be there to look after them. I still fail to see what the big fucking deal is with that?

I would not give a flying fart about this thread if it wasn't so unfair to Ratmir.

I get your point, and then no problemo considering workpermit! I thought for a moment the dude was putting up a shop there :D

4 people i've jumped with on that trip are dead. It's all fun and games till it isn't.

Serious mode On.

The thread is about him (and others) running FJCs at low cliffs. He was going to do it at Tonsai, advertised it on his page, then changed the mind (and page) after other people intervened. That's good, let's keep it up for other cliffs (and "instructors") as well! There's still no proper understanding why it's such a bad idea.

Mate, you of all people should have it fresh in you, eh? Same time Ratmir was running his FJC on a cliff in 2015, you were struggling with off-heading corrections off a low cliff, and escaped by pure luck, right?

Let's look at it from a technical point, all fun aside:


So you jump off something solid and then find out than you can't turn the canopy, and can't figure out how it actually reacts to riser inputs. Afterwards you review the video, do test jumps from a plane, etc. Great idea! Now, would it be even better to do that practice before you went to a cliff - during your training course for example? Remeber, you just got luckiy that time - hundreds of others didnt!

I have personally watched about 15 cliff strikes, vast majority were people in the "danger zone" 10..200 jumps experience range, none of them had practical Object Avoidance Training (what you've tried to do off a plane post-factum). Talking to them afterwards, everybody had a similar story: "the canopy just didn't turn", "didn't react to risers" or "i couldn't get to my toggles". In short, people can't figure it out for the 1st time in the short couple of seconds before impact.

It does take a good number of practice jumps to learn how to turn a 180. It has to be a fast reflex, and reflex can only be learned by practice and repetition. So it HAS to be done off a bridge for slider-down jumps, and only some of it can be learned from a plane (due to slider-up setup, different brake settings, different opening dynamics etc).


That highlights the previous point: you want to experience this off a bridge first. A typical 180 with crossed risers is an entirely different animal from a level-flying canopy you're playing with on a skydive. This is why floaters and then intentionally-packed 180's off a bridge MUST be part of your learning curve BEFORE you move to a cliff.

That is, if YOU want to draw dicks on foreheads, instead of providing your own for smarter mate's artwork (serious mode Off)

Alot of the most experienced people in the world are also dead to...so technically any sort of fjc course that helps people start base is a bad idea and shouldnt be taught as there only asisting people to do things that have a high chance of killing them ....and honestly theres alot of people that only started base jumping coz of a fjc.......for the simple fact that 1.there wankers that cant find a mentor coz no one likes them or
2.as a result of number 1 they realise they dont have the balls to teach themselves and dont bother with base....but they now have another option pay $$$ do a course with people that they dont evan know haha pussies way....ive offended people havent i...

Anyway thank fuck that its impossible to regulate base like they did skydivng....so all this debate is pointless

Oh, absolutely.

But irrespective of my personal Ton Sai incident (which I make no secret of but did not want to bring up in the context of this particular discussion so as not to shift the conversation away from the point I was making), my point was that people who go BASE jumping largely accept the risk of getting into a situation where the might get injured. All training questions aside (which I have no argument about, of course) I am not aware of a situation where a jumper blamed their mentor after they got injured. So my argument from the start was that Ratmir knows what he is doing and his students know what they are doing. Students would be aware that they might hit this object and get hung up or get injured or die. I doubt very much that they would blame Ratmir for it.

I was with my mentor (who is now dead, unfortunately) when I had my incident and I did not blame him for not giving me enough object avoidance training.

So that is why I asked initially if something changed in Ton Sai? For example, there are a couple of really precious objects here in Melbournia, where I live. And I would not want to bring anyone up there whom I thought would have a higher than average chance of hitting the object and getting hung up because BASE jumping is not only frown upon in Australia, but this is how they deal with objects as soon as there is a big incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YhZp4n1xys (this was the result of poor Ash going in). So my local objects are very, very precious and everyone has to behave, travelling to other states or countries for training. Ton Sai, on the other hand, has always been very relaxed in that sense. So, for example when this happens: https://youtu.be/KanTEkmDpuU?t=154 it does not involve TV crews, politicians and governments cutting down the cliff with jack hammers (a very likely response in Australia).

So while no-one wishes for jumpers to be getting hurt and while I am not saying that it's OK to expose low jump number people to risks they are not able to deal with, I still do not believe that the personal attack on Ratmir was warranted. He is not advertising this "Ton Sai FJC" to general public. And he does explain the risks involved better than most trainers.

Aa-a-a-nyway, I am kind of tired of defending Ratmir here to be honest. I don't even know the guy that well. But I am all for fairness and I don't think you are being fair on the guy.

Hopefully we have found some common ground here and other people reading this thread would not think of Ratmir as a complete cock-head who just chucks inexperienced people off the cliff. Because he is not like that.

As to my incident, now that you brought it into the conversation -- just in case you are genuinely interested in what happened, I can briefly go over it. Once again, I was not planing on sharing it with the wider audience as it has noting to do with the OP but short of sharing the gnarliest video of the incident I make no secret of it.

First of all, my save was not all luck as I did manage to turn the canopy enough to just brush the wall instead of hitting it head on and I did fly away from the wall in the end. But yes, of course, I would have performed way better have I practised evasive manurers more. I did do five or seven jumps out of a plane with my BASE gear before Ton Sai trip, not after, not sure what gave you that idea.

The root cause of my off-heading appears to be super-violent PC oscillation (42 un-vented, APEX). You can see on my mentor's video from the exit point above how the pack is lifted very symmetrical off the tray but then the PC oscillates, moves from right to left a distance of about 2-3 meters and turns the canopy around in the air. We later found that PC was not fully symmetrical. While it was out just a bit (I cannot remember the exact number, sorry) and it was within the APEX specs, I never jumped that PC again after the incident and replaced it with a Toxic.



The events described below took ~2.5 seconds.

Canopy opened into the cliff. Upon opening I was violently thrown "over my left shoulder" immediately ending up with riser twists. My initial thought was "fuck, a tension knot!". The ferocity of the turn led me to believe that. I could also see that both toggles were not popped but I had no access to them. My plan was to, at that stage, to complete a 360 turn. Thinking that if it's a tension knot and if it keeps turning me to the left, I would therefore waste time fighting it to the right, while risking impacting head on. So I may as well do a 360 and try to do something when the canopy faces away from the wall.



I grabbed rear left riser above the twist and initiated the left turn (in order to complete the 360 on the spot turn). About 0.3 seconds later I could feel the speed/rate of turn and realised that while completing 360 was still possible, I would very likely clip the cliff with the right side of my canopy. The problem with that was the big, chunky bunch of stalactites to me left. And if I was to brush these with my canopy, it would slice my canopy through without doubt. A fatality from Russia came to mind where a jumper sliced his canopy on a guy wire and fell about 100m to his death -- a first fatality in Russia, Angarsk (in 1994 if I am not mistaken). Yes, I actually remembered of that case from BFL while up there!



So I had to change over to plan B. I let go of left RR and jumped hard on the right RR -- now trying to escape to the right. I impacted while flying at ~90 degrees relative to the cliff (almost parallel). I've put my feet out backwards impacting in that order: feet, ass, left shoulder.

The canopy touched the wall and went back into line twists. I pushed from the wall with my feet, turned the canopy to the right and flew away from the wall, landing on my feet on the grassy ledge below. Landing was soft, I flared with my rear risers which were free by then. I never un-stowed the toggles though.

In retrospect, I made a series of mistakes. I rushed initially, jumping to a wrong conclusion regarding a tension knot. Have I started saving it to the right, I most likely would have gotten out of there. But I corrected the mistakes in time and survived. But! I did not fumble around uselessly or survived by accident (if that is what you implied). I had a plan and a backup plan. Not the best plans, pretty weak plans with very little margin but I survived... so they were half-decent plans at least :)

In the context of the OP:

I do not blame my mentor's choice to let me jump there. I did not hurt the cliff. I knew what I was in for. My choice of jumping there should not instigate an attack on my mentor (who is now dead anyway) but in case of Ratmir, if one of his students wants to jump there, Ratmir should not be held responsible nor should he be attacked for inviting people to go up with him or under his supervision.

Ratmir is taking people on his trip who have more canopy control experience than I had at the time of my incident. His students are aware of the risks involved. Ton Sai is a unique place where once can actually get into cliff jumping without compromising (burning) the object should things go pear shaped.

Just like any BASE crew, Ratmir has a bunch of dudes who hang around with him, go on trips together etc. They are a crew and know each other more or less through skydiving endeavours -- remember, he is a W/S coach and travels Russia and the world quite extensively.

His students are not really walk-in the shop door customers like you folks get in the states. It's pretty much like he is going on a trip with his mates but they compensate his time for coaching. And your personalised (!!!) attack on him paints him in a completely wrong light.

I hope that my incident serves as some kind of an example. See attachments for illustration of the incident. Like I said -- I did not want to discuss my incident, but you brought it up for some reason.

Tell 'em, brother! )))) And I think that this whole commercial FJC thing they have going on the the states skews people's perception of how people in other countries are still getting into the sport -- i.e. "the old way", through mentor-ship, one on one and where no one assumes any amount of responsibility for your actions.

That was one of the best accident analysis i've seen here. Much appreciated!


OP has little to do with Tonsai - it questions the wisdom of holding a commercial FJC at a low cliff elsewhere (and anywhere!). Maybe i haven't made it clear enough. You keep defending Ratmir for something he's already corrected (Tonsai trip). I've known the guy for many years and he's a good lad with a big heart, but poor judgement. It's fine as long as he jumps on his own, but not acceptable in a context of a commercial FJC school he tries to run.

The main point is to avoid future low-cliff First Jump Courses. This is absolute Black Death, and really should be common sense.


P.S. FYI, i live in Thailand

1. Not everyone who takes an FBJC is a fuck-tard.

2. Not everyone who learns from a mentor
is awesome-mantastic-hard-as-fuck either.

3. Access and risks vary widely by location!

Haha true that and also just out of curiosity for this base course on the op what makes someone eligible to be base fjc instructer...since base is unregulated has no real approved ratings courses etc.....is it just some lads thats done heaps of jumps off the perrine bridge and his boyfriends think hes the man.....or i dunno.....just wondering whos place and job it is to say who can do what and do it where?........long story short this isnt the uspa or apf and people like it that way

If you know the guy personally then you probably would know how loose the definition of a commercial client is for Russian mentors. His relationship with his clients is a far cry from what his US counterparts go through with paperwork, etc. In a Russian "school" scenario it is really a bunch of mates going for a jump together.

Yet, you've built up a perception that the guy is setting up shop in Ton Sai and is chucking inexperienced ppl off the cliff. Even the name of your thread cried "Save the Russians!" as if they are victims being tricked and manipulated by this bad guy Ratmir who has this poor judgement as you say to jump there.

Not only that, but you published his contacts and asked for the mastodons of the sport to lay into him.

Every mentor out there has, at some stage, taught someone off a cliff. I through that singling out this instructor was unfair. Especially given that he speaks next to no English and cannot reply to your accusations. Russians and Ukrainians have been using Crimean cliffs as student objects for years. Australians use Blueies as student cliffs. If you personally believe that this is Black Death then the discussion could have been initiated more diplomatically, without name calling and asking the "big boys" to lay into this particular guy.

And by the way -- do you know what kind of sick and twisted FJC Stan runs on that same cliff in Ton Sai? Now there is a topic for discussion!

No experienced necessary!
He'll be there pretty soon as well.

His story of getting into base jumping is brilliant.

It is a commercial school, main source of Ratmir's income. FJC off an antenna or a cliff costs 25000 RUB + all expenses. It puts Potato Bridge advertisements to shame: http://baseguru.ru/basejumping. Tonsai FJC was advertised there at a premium 35000 RUB until this shit hit a fan two weeks ago. There's a screenshot for you on russian forum.

You can't have it both ways. You can either be a "mentor" dropping a friend off Overhang for his first jump and laughing at Potato FJC, or you can advertise & run a commercial FJC.

If you run a commercial FJC off a cliff, it will catch up with you very quickly on many levels, moral & legal.

You have a full right to choose to be an idiot. The problem with students in Russia is that many genuinely don't know any better. They don't speak english, don't have much info about BASE and don't know why it is so wrong to learn off a cliff. They can't make educated decisions, and happily taking their money in exchange for a shitty object is a crime.

I know. We had the same mentor. So my story of getting into this interrupted suicide mayhem is also quite similar. So as most of other Lionya's students (well -- those who surviced, lol :)). And there were dozens if not hundreds' of us.

That's why for us, BASE is this purely spiritual thing. Whereas US-style FJC approach is almost like proper athlete training, as if you are being trained for the Olympic team or something.

Not dissing the US training program, no, no, no -- it is safer, faster and teaches more. But the Russian way is almost like opening a direct point to point chakra-channel that lets you talk to the rock and make peace with it. You can't regulate this kind of thing, you know? :)))

OMFG, you are a student of Kopelchuk?

Indeed I am.

out of interest, on your Tonsia incident did it follow an aerial of any kind?

Also did you go hand-held or stowed?

I have less than 50 jumps, only 9 of which i have done from a slider off cliff, but i assumed it was slightly safer generally to avoid going stowed, and to avoid aerials on low cliffs, especially as a total beginner like me.

I have also noticed from incident videos of cliff strikes on low cliffs, they often tend to follow an Aerial and they often, but not always, involve people going stowed on cliffs where hand held would have been fine.

Just interested in what kind of jump it was , and you opinion on handheld vs stowed.

thanks.

For the record I am also an uncurrent jumper now- not jumped base in over 6 months. So i am an armchair jumper at the moment ( nothing even remotely safe for my experience levels anywhere near my current location)

How many times have you gone hand-held skydiving?

Why would you jump with a horseshoe malfunction?


Ody

never, but I've also never gone slider off skydiving either.

i have only ever had had a 180 once. It was a line twist on a slider up cliff, and this was due to a slightly damp canopy and an overzealous PC pitch IMO wich resulted in a bit of body rotation plus pilot chute swing.

I just assumed that handheld and throwing forward might help reduce PC oscillation on slider down cliffs as opposed to stowed, as you can throw it forward not to the side.

But - i am a proper beginner in base, and I am here to learn what i can from the ideas of more experienced people like yourself while I am out of the game and away from actual base jumpers in real life.

So i am ready to listen.

This is the most disrespectful and moronic thing to say.

Lionya was another nice guy, with little BASE experience, and judgement of a wooden plank. He had no business teaching BASE, nor skydiving, for that matter.

Shortly after he deathcamped you, he had a tandem cutaway at the drop zone and lost a freebag.

He decided to replace it with a random bag from another system, that didn't fit with his tandem rig. So he packed a tandem reserve for a malfunction.

Then he packed a total in his main, a silly total too.

Then he went to jump with AAD intentionally switched off, as he usually did with his tandems.

Then he pulled low, at 3000ft, as he usually did with his tandems.

Then he couldn't handle it, and had a low reserve pull.

Then the reserve didn't open, because of the wrong freebag & bridle & PC configuration.

So he killed an innocent student, and himself.

A month earlier, at the same DZ, they had the same exact incident with a wrong freebag from another system packed into a tandem rig. The tandem streamered into the trees under un-open reserve, and by luck snagged on the branches. Lionya learned fuckle from that one.

This was a crime beyond belief and reason. There was a criminal probe. Sadly, they couldn't do much to a corpse beyond establishing guilt.

Now the idiot is dead, but his legacy lives on - in you hitting the wall, and apparently in other "students" deathcamping more misguided souls off the cliff.

Do whatever you want with your own life, but when it comes to students - either be a professional, or fucking walk away!!!

Yuri! I know your name now. I am Alex, by the way. I did not realise that you are Russian at the beginning of our conversation. I started suspecting so a bit down the track, but not initially. To be honest, if I knew that from the start, I probably would not have structured my response in the way that I have.

Ratmir sent me an email thanking me for sticking up for him on the English-language forum. That is so hilarious, I never thought I’d be defending that guy publically, considering the reputation he has in Russia. To me he is trying to assume a bit of Russian Jeb Corliss image. He sent me a link to the Russian-language forum where you laid out your argument without personalised attacks and Ratmir had a chance to respond. I was not aware of that discussion as I was not on that forum. The discussion on skycenter was more on topic than here, you raised very valid questions without nominating the culprit and Ratmir took the bait and engaged in a direct conversation with you.

To be honest, that conversation should have occurred between you and Ratmir or at least should have remained on that Russian forum. But when you brought it here, to the world-wide audience and under a different sauce, I felt that you were not being fair and jumped in. Obviously you are a very experienced and probably a respected member of world-wide BASE community. I am not in the position to discuss technicalities of professional student tuition with you. And I was not.

In your Russian post you said all the right things about students’ likely inability to adequately react to a 180 situation on a Ton Sai cliff. Then you asked Ratmir how he was planning to fetch his hung up students off the cliff. Those are very good questions to put to a school. I hope that you understand that me getting involved was not to argue the validity of those questions. Which are totally right. The truth about Ratmir’s “school” is that he has two and a half friends how discover him through skydiving world in provincial Russia, where there is no one else to ask about BASE related tuition, and these few mates hang around with him and sometimes he holds onto their pilot shuts on their local antenna or they do trips together. Sometimes they give him money for it. Other times they do not. Ratmir dresses these trips up as “camps” and “FJCs” on his website with a gay name BASEGURU. He even claims that he released 50 students through his school. Ok, even if it was true and even if all of them paid the full price of about $1000 for tuition (which I think is bollocks) then over the 10 year period he made a wooping $5000 per year on his BASE “school”. Hardly enough to make a living.

So no, Ratmir is not a “school” in the American sense of the world. But if he was to become one, he would need to address those questions that you raised on the Russian forum. These were great questions that people from provincial Russia do not think about, I suppose. And good on you to raise them. But that conversation should have ended right there and then (on skycenter). For some reason you brought it out here. And here is why I think this was wrong. Despite Ratmir being a romantic that he is, despite his gay crew name, despite him dressing up regular trips as camps and FJCs on his website, he is actually pretty good. Not only that he has kind heart – as you said so yourself – but he does teach his students pretty carefully and methodically. I watched him work with his students next to us on an antenna in Russia and he came across as a very level-headed instructor. Compared to Lionya at least. lol )))) Or is that another moronic joke in your book?

Ratmir also travels extensively and flies his magic carpet around quite a bit. It would be unfair to the guy if people met him on the exit point and went: oh, you are that douchebag that everyone on the forum were bagging? Except those people won’t know the background you your and Ratmir’s beef.


Well, it turns out that you do know the guy personally. And if so, then you also know that his school is two and a half mates who hang around with him from time to time. His "school" is not like a school that Tom or Doogs run, you know what I mean? People on the Russian forum understand the context, but people out here do not.

To me it seemed like you walked into a bar and yelled out: "Hey, there is a guy outside whom I believe is doing something wrong. Let's all smash the cunt." Except that the guy did not speak English and whatever he wrote on his website is not quite what he does in real life.

Cut the cunt some slack, he is from EKB for fuck sake! Give him advice and help him, don’t bash the poor sod on an international forum and ask all the mastodons of the sport to stomp on him with ya. You know what I mean?

Anyway. I am glad that you and Ratmir had that conversation. He now has a better understanding of the cliff. It just would have been better not to drag it out here in the completely inverted context.

I still believe that it's not a crime to hold onto someone's PS if that said someone wants to jump off a cliff. But making a business plan based on this is probably going to fail sooner or later, sure.


Can you PM me the details of that incident if you have any details?

Thank you for going over the details of Lionya's last jump. I was quite aware of the details, I even comforted the girl who was dating the tandem passenger who died. Except my understanding was that the free bag was not the issue, but rather the reserve bridle which was shorter than what it should have been and as a result the reserve PS stayed under the drogue until 20m above ground.

Not sure if you know but there are videos of him exiting the a/c for the last time in his life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpoxLvGJ-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ4JKeP1PjA

It is difficult to discuss Lionya's actions on that day without an array of emotions. And I won’t. The young 21 year old he took with him is the saddest outcome of his attitude to equipment and procedures, of course. It is also unfortunate that the Club did not get dome by the cops, I am sure there was something they knew and could have anticipated. Especially given the tandem streamer incident you described.

Did you know him well? You seem to refer to in derogatory terms.



Lionya attracted those students that probably would not have been taken by other mentors for various reasons. And he was like a father to us. His energy was so positive that even the most saddened and depressed individuals found cure in working with him. To some extent, he was a bit too positive. My "those who survived" joke is a kind of joke that he would have used. And his attitude towards danger, I believe, gave many of his students a somewhat false sense of security. It was interesting, actually, to compare US school of teaching where actions are drilled into students head to become instincts. For money. Or Lionya's free tuition where he basically taught students to believe in themselves and to "not fuck around with your gear" as he used to say (pity he did not use his own advice!). And you know what -- both schools of thought achieved the same result. Many of his students achieved a great deal in the sport. But this philosophy is a subject of another discussion and I am not sure I want to be having this discussion with you anyway because you are an experienced old school jumper and I am a complete noob -- we would have totally different perspectives and my romantisation (is there such a word) of these observations would probably just make you mad ))))

For Lionya's 60th, we got him a brand new OSP. We got every student in our crew to pick a canopy part and colour it. The result was this amazing technicolour dream coat. He almost cried when he got it:







I'll miss the guy for the rest of my life irrespective of the stupid shit that he did.



Anyway, I hope you and Ratmir worked the stuff out and are both happy with a result. I'd like to relieve myself from continuing this somewhat pointless discussion. If you are ever in Melbournia, hit me up.

It was identical jump to this: https://vimeo.com/100087095.

It rotated to the left just like in the video. Except this video shows 10-20 O/H to the left but when the incident occurred it was more like 150-160. The wall changes angle half way down so that 150 turned into 180 as I was staring directly into the wall after opening. For a split second. After which I was thrown around over my left shoulder almost complete 360, maybe 270 or something like that. That body turning made me falsely believe I was turning due to tension knot. The rest of the story is above.

That's all i have. As DZ tried to cover-up extensively right after the bounce, it may not be easy to find out more. Try to talk to locals if you really need it. They have also seen, and might have a copy of, the hand-mounted GoPro footage from the bounce, the one that is missing on official report.

There are 35 pages of discussing the accident here, with bits and pieces scattered throughout:

http://www.skycentre.net/....php?showtopic=21485
http://www.skycentre.net/....php?showtopic=20557

if you care to read more Russian. It doesn't add much to the summary.


Will do, and will buy you a pint - on a condition you complete the entire BM exit circuit injury-free?

Likewise, always welcome on Koh Phangan!

To be honest, at my experience level, and just with my clumsiness, spastikness and general luck -- I would not jump BM any time soon as it involves cliff striking to land it ))) Not sure if I'd ever jump it, to be honest. But I'd happily jump "Tibet" cliff near 'Gong or most other AU objects.

Alighty, sorry about resurrecting this thread but I have one last point to make.

While I still stand by my earlier view that this discussion could have been handled better privately, you did raise some extremely valid points regarding lack of object avoidance training with people starting BASE and moving from FJC to solo jumping and eventually wanting to jump Ton Sai, Crimea and other gnarly objects.

While US jumpers have some level of training (for example if they take Tom's full course at The Bridge before going over to Moab), the Russian jumpers and -- in my case -- Australian jumpers lack that opportunity to practice off-heading openings (unless they train in US, of course, which most ozzies do). However, I personally know Ozzy jumpers (more than one) who have had their first jumps done off gnarly ozzy cliffs with horrific ozzy landing zones. They survived but that is not the point.

So anyway, there are two ways to handle an on-line discussion:

1) Troll the fuck out of the opponent on-line, tear them to shreds and move on;
2) Put your money where your mouth is and do something useful for the community in real life;

Coincidently, as you published the original post, I was searching around for someone to help me improve on my canopy handling skills in an off-heading opening situation. Perhaps this was one of the reasons that your post resonated with me on several levels and the reason why I responded to it and got involved in the first place.

In my quest for an OAC-mentor (Object Avoidance Course), I contacted Tom A in particular, tried to throw money at him, but he wanted none of it and did not want to take me on just for OAC. He offered for me to do the FJC+OAC but that was not what I was after. Doogs does not want to know me until I get more skydives under my belt and learn how to punch a bong :) And so while I was considering my options your post came along. After reading it I turned to Russian instructors and discovered that there was only one guy who had the OAC program written out but even so he has never trialled it on his students in its entirety. Well, Ok, maybe he tried it once: https://vimeo.com/156804441

So what I ended up doing was I paid Simon Lazarev to come out to Croatia with me, flew to Croatia myself and over the course of last week we went hard doing nothing else but OAC jumps. Ok, we did do a couple of fun jumps, but primary focus was OAC.

Between the two of us, we ended up punching out 45+ jumps, perfecting Simon's program. What I got out of it was a massive, massive skill boost. Simon got a free trip to Croatia and an opportunity to finalise his dedicated OAC program. With tons of footage and perfected training approach I think that he can now teach any monkey to safely back away and turn a canopy on the spot.

Here is some footage to illustrate the course outcomes:

Stage 1. Modified floater exit + canopy piloting basics: https://vimeo.com/...5506/video/156517508 gets you in the mood, relaxes student enough to prepare for "face to the object" exists.
Stage 2. Rear riser turns: https://vimeo.com/...5506/video/156517509
Stage 3. Sliding canopy backwards and "backing away" turn on toggles: https://vimeo.com/...5506/video/156517510
Stage 4. On the spot toggle turn: https://vimeo.com/...5506/video/156517511

Bonus... packed off-heading: https://vimeo.com/...5506/video/156517506

If only I had this knowledge before my 2014 Ton Sai ordeal, I would have still had my $600 that it cost me in canopy repairs and would not have been in pain for weeks, with a bruised ego and reputation of "that guy".

I would like to shout out to all mentors out there to not only incorporate elements of this into your courses, but make it a 3-4 day solid, full time event. These skills are no less important than knowing how to throw a pilot chute but it is not apparent to the new guys. Until there is a cliff rushing at you at 20 miles an hour, of course. But then you have only about 2 seconds to learn how to fly your canopy away from the impact.

Anyway, that is already way more text than I wanted to type up )))) I just wanted to share with you and the others who are interested that Russians are now, if not saved, but at least now have an option to be saved. Obviously this program and skill is not a guarantee that one would not freak out at a sight of a an object rushing towards them but at least it gives students a real chance of survival.

Happy jumping!

Adding and testing a custom deep brake settings?
Is this part of the 3-4day course

My understanding is that Tom A does it as part of his course.

Yes he does, and man what a difference a CDBS makes. Packing intentional 180s is great too, but not much of a realistic surprise factor after doing it over and over and over again... but great to dial in the drills! Fun game... you and a mate you trust, can pack each other's rig.. with possible 180s..possible not