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Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
Following a conversation I had with Maury (that Italian guy with 4000 jumps) I thought I'd do a poll to see what people think of being more open about legal sites.
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
Access to legal sites is a great thing. However, posting about how to get to certain sites could allow people that are not qualified to go off on their own and die. I have almost a 1000 base jumps and a few hundred wingsuit base jumps. There are sites that I have no business on. Maybe I'm smart enough to know where my limit currently is. On the other hand, "Mr. 4 base jumps and cant wait to do a double gainer" might not know where his/her limits are and should not be able to find the Jungfrau route on a map online.

Ody
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
I know of more than one Google Earth database which attempts to catalogue exit points.

I believe it best to keep these databases shared between friends, instead of being made available on the public internet.
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Re: [AJ.Stuyvenberg] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
Same, and agree. There are a lot of these databases out there already. Those who should get access to them likely already do.
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
I do think its crazy that people get crazy if we don't refer to one of the most well known , and best to go to to train ,jumps as the Italian wall...

Think overall sharing site information and knowledge can only be a good thing certain people will still want a "easy" option offered by cable cars / easy access but at least if they have jump specs in black and white and knowledge of alternative jumps in the nearby area they have the option to adjust their itinerary ....

and for others , going to new sites is always fun and why not share , we don't own the mountains .
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Re: [Bryguy1224] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
Bryguy1224 wrote:
Access to legal sites is a great thing. However, posting about how to get to certain sites could allow people that are not qualified to go off on their own and die...

Don't buy it. Anyway, it's the same in climbing, except our deadliest exits tend to be the most accessible - which is another good reason to catalogue them as the people that want to go there will find a way regardless of whether they are "qualified" or not, which itself is a subjective measure.

Take Lauterbrunnen for example. The place itself is not hard to find - and anyone can show up and follow someone else with a stash bag to an exit point. By being as open as possible with information (a) removes some of the mystique (and therefore desire) to jump more technical objects (Dutch citizens don't smoke marijuana in Amsterdam, only foreigners), and (b) permits a more consistent - and therefore more likely to be adhered to - grading of exit points against their technicality on exit, flight and landing, as well as how fit you should be to get there!

We live in an internet age. Censorship is now practically impossible in the western world. Best policy is therefore to make sure the information is as accurate as possible.

Richard
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Re: [airbornesid] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
airbornesid wrote:
and for others , going to new sites is always fun and why not share , we don't own the mountains .

Nope, we dont, so we should ensure access for future jumpers. And that is hard to maintain with hordes of idiots running around, ruining it for everyone else. Just look at the well known sites.
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Re: [Pendragon] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
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Re: [BASE1817] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
BASE1817 wrote:
airbornesid wrote:
and for others , going to new sites is always fun and why not share , we don't own the mountains .

Nope, we dont, so we should ensure access for future jumpers. And that is hard to maintain with hordes of idiots running around, ruining it for everyone else. Just look at the well known sites.

I agree to a point ... Its very easy to point to the swiss valley all the time and use that as an excuse for not being more open although i would counter with the french guidebook which is very readily available and updated yearly how many 'idiots' take advantage of that ? i would think very few but only people who at least have some knowledge of hiking , mountain craft ...

How do we "ensure access for jumpers" yet not share jumps? makes no sense ...?
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
I assume you are thinking specifically about an Italian topo. Is this correct?

I think having the information readily available is best for people’s safety and ultimately the sport, and here’s why:

I think a lot of people like to use the argument that secrecy will prevent people who shouldn't be somewhere from jumping there. In my experience, secrecy is more often used to try to prevent people jumping somewhere, because someone doesn’t want them there. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence for this, but I‘m not here to bitch about people. The problem is if someone wants to jump something, they will find a way to jump it, whether other people help them or not. It seems to me, that the people who could benefit most from information about a jump are the ones least likely to be given it.

Many people argue that with free information other places will turn into another Lauterbrunnen. This is rubbish, because nowhere else is like lauterbrunnen. People go to lauterbrunnen because they know they will meet people to jump with, there are an abundance of relatively easy jumps, and they can make 10 jumps a day, with little effort thanks to the gondolas. Exit information IS freely available in France and the only places you are likely to run into someone else are where the hikes are less than an hour. Any legal jump in France with a 3 hour or more hike will be lucky to be jumped more than a couple of times a week.

One of the main problems of not having information available, is that secrecy promotes the passing of inaccurate information. As people relay badly remembered, second hand information it inevitably gets distorted. Consider rockdrop, add distortion to an already highly inaccurate measurement and you can get some pretty risky results. For example, I have known people who have been told that a certain exit point has a 5-6 second rock drop (likely to scare people away because they don’t want too much traffic). They have jumped the jump without verifying this information and found it easy. They have then used this as a yardstick, and told me they have jumped a certain jump, so they are happy jumping other jumps with the same 5-6 second rockdrop. I have lasered one of these jumps myself. The cliff was slightly positive (10m at -160m (hence the rockDROP) and the talus starts at 220m (I would in no way call this a 5 second rockdrop, although others may argue differently). These people now have pretty inaccurate yardsticks. Giving people accurate information would not only have allowed them to make the decision to jump these jumps based on facts, but future decisions also.

Yesterday, I uncovered the precise location of at least nine “secret” exit points just from internet videos and google maps. Now I will go to these places, and I will likely jump most of them, but I will at least laser them all (an effort which may be saved if this information were more readily available, but this is beside the point). Also, I will contact the locals before I jump at least a couple of these because I suspect there may be issues regarding the legality of these jumps. Anyone can do this, but not all jumpers have the same attitude. There are some who would not bother to contact the locals to find out any possible issues with a potentially sensitive site. There are many who don’t have a laser, and will simply jump it because they saw that it has been jumped in a V4 or say to themselves “Five and a half second rock drop – I’ve done that before”. These are the people who put their lives and these sites at risk, and the best thing we can do to combat an ignorant few is to provide these people as much accurate information as possible.

Providing information about jumps is also another opportunity to remind people of something they should already know, but may have forgotten or not realised. For instance, a reminder that your start arc is much longer at such a high altitude, and a cliff profile that may be relatively safe to jump at low altitude could be very dangerous at this altitude, could be helpful to some. Or that for a particular jump a south wind may seem nice at the exit but further down can be real nasty. Not to mention potential sensitivity issues. Everyone has the potential to overlook a crucial piece of information.

In the end people are responsible for making their own choices and the best thing we can do for their safety is to make sure these choices are based on the most complete and accurate information possible.
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Re: [trenwah] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
The locals here are split on the issue. Some are for total secrecy, some are for sharing 'some' exits - and some don't give a sh#t either way.

I personally believe the French topo is a good thing. I also see how most jumpers change with time, from being a cable car / B.U.S. jumper towards para-alpinist.

I think we should all give back to the community by opening & sharing at least one exit (legal and 'suitable').
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
On the topic of sharing, have you tried the outdoor active app? http://www.outdooractive.com/en/mobile.html

It's my favorite way to share directions to exits. Basically a GPS tracker but you can add pics, notes along way points, easy to send as .gpx files etc
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Re: [unclecharlie95] Exit database - should we create an online database of legal exits?
The argument that climbers do it is invalid. If there is a route that is a 5.14 and Joe Schmoe says 'I can do THAT!' - when he gets to the bottom of the wall, he simply won't get higher than 2 feet off the ground.

If there is a database for BASE exit points, and lets say one of the exits was a Moab wingsuit jump, and same Joe Schmoe reads about it and says 'I can do THAT!' and goes to the exit point with his sweet new WS. He jumps it, it's far beyond his ability and he dies. Any idiot can hike/drive to the exit point, and just as easily jump. And just as easily, die.
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