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hello guys
I'm curious about your opinion on two topics related to brake settings .

What I know , by the book, is that there are two sort of setting : Deep / Shallow ,
the Deep brake setting are normally used for jumps slider down, while the shallow brake setting are used normally for jumps with slider up.

Now I saw / read two 'interesting things' but not having enough experience , I'm looking for your opinion.

1) creation of a new "deeper" brake setting so that the canopy on opening will have a very low forward speed :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boft1xAZqNo .
in this case , are there any specific consequences on the canopy ? eg. Early deterioration ?
or do you see some side back implications ?

2) I read about a UltraLow jump : 51 meters high done not with the static line but going hand held with a PC 52".
in this case the jumper quoted that the brake settings , even if it was a slider down jump, were set to the "shallow" position to grand more efficiency to the canopy on opening.. "to make it fly more "
What do you think about jumping , slider down, using the shallow brake settings?
Pros / Cons?

Any info , as usual will help :)
ciaoo

What I personally do and teach is this:

Factory Shallow for Slider-UP - because the force of
the brake lines is what helps push down the slider,
longer delays = more air speed and usually much
greater distance from the object.

Factory Deep for Slider-OFF - because the slower
air speed and closer proximity to the object make
make it optimal.

So far I have not needed to create a deeper setting
because as luck has it Stane of Atair and I are very
close in weight and size, hence my Trolls all show
up with everything already dialed in for me.

I have seen people open in a stall from a setting
that was too deep. Changes in field elevation and
body weight can have pronounced effects . . .

Lastly, regarding using shallow on super low jumps,
my lowest is 145' and it was with deep brakes, but
I have heard theory about using shallow so jumper
can flare with rears, meaning the plan was to not
even release the toggles.

I personally do the following:

Factory Shallow - cut them open as soon as I get my hands on the canopy, as they are in my case totally useless

Factory Deep - use as custom shallow brakes - for SU

Custom Deep - about 7 - 15 cm deeper (depending on the canopy model) than the factory deeps. Use for SD.

One thing as we kind of talk about this. Does the brake setting influence how fast the canopy opens? I've heard that the more shallow the brakes the slower tha canopy opens.

Out there in the base world there is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to deep brake setting. Most people would think its just to slow the opening down, and if you're one of these people you're misinformed or are just being a dumb monkey that does it because someone else has done and you saw it. Setting custom deep brakes does slow down your opening, which is a nice bonus, but as you can see in the video John still has forward momentum. You need this for a parachute to work right. The reason you set custom deep brakes is for the response to the canopy when you hit the risers to save your life. When you watch the video in the beginning, watch the center cell. You see it continue forwards during the riser turn, ultimately meaning that if you were to do that on a cliff with a 180, you would still be flying at the wall in essence, while turning away. Now watch the later portion of the video, and watch the center cell. You can now see that when he hits the riser, the center cell stops all forward motion and pivots on spot. meaning that he no longer is moving towards the object. You need the canopy to move forward because as you stall out the right side of the wing in the video, you still need forward motion on the left side to initiate a turn.
For all you out there that just "Take some off" to make it slower, you have no idea how dangerous you can make if for yourself. If you take too much and initiate even the slightest of a stalling canopy, when you hit your risers, you aren't going to turn, you're going to fall out of the sky like a rock under a fully stalled canopy. If you don't take enough out, you aren't getting the benefits you need, which is the original reason why you would deepen your brakes.
I would highly recommend learning from someone who knows what they are talking about, rather than you just do it because someone else is.
Hope this helps.

Edit to answer #2.

Shallow break setting for slider up or something you cannot hit. If you are jumping an antenna with a high tail wind, you should use shallow. The last thing you want is for your canopy to immediately have a backwards surge into the wind because your brakes are too deep. This has happened before to many people where they have an on heading and because they were in custom deep or factory deep with a strong tail wind, their canopy surges backwards and hits the object...And Yes with a on heading.
Factory deep I use on bridges or antennas. Mostly stuff you cannot hit. Like I said before if you have a high tail wind, you might want to switch it to shallow to avoid a back surge.
Custom deep brakes I will use for everything solid, and slider down.
**super low jumps and most static line jumps, I will use the shallowest setting for one reason alone, and that's because it gets the canopy flying faster which gives you a better flare, whether or not you're using toggles or risers. I have seen peoples canopies (factory deep) not get enough speed and more or less they just pound into the ground and have little to no response from toggles or risers.
With all this being said its Base Jumping and there isnt a right answer for anything. Going to toggles, going to risers, shallow or deep, its your base jump. Start with easy objects, figure shit out, and work your way to harder lower objects if you choose, but at least youll have some experience and some reasoning behind your ideas vs "I saw that guy do it"

Not sure if you reffer to my post, but if so, then you're wrong because that's not the reason why I use (custom) deep brakes.

The main reason is to slow down the forward speed. Everything else is a bonus/byproduct of that setting, which one has to deal with / benefit from.


In my opinion that's a downside, at least for me, as when jumping SD I usually want my canopy to open as fast as possible.
Also I have heard contradicting opinions on that matter, so maybe you cound explaing the reasoning behind this?

Anyway, very good post with many good points, although I still have to analyze everything that you wrote :)

My Bad...we're on the same page. My terminology is wrong. By slowing down the opening, what I really meant to say is it slows down the forward speed of the canopy after opening. The opening speed, as in regards to the canopy inflation speed, in my opinion is faster with deeper set brakes though.

In another note, some people, usually jumpers from back in the day, prefer a slower opening canopy, such as a non vented canopy for slider down because it doesn't open as fast and in essence gives you more time to respond if you have a 180. Compared to a vented canopy, where it opens super fast and starts flying immediately. Just more food for thought.

thanks a lot guys, really nice information and I appreciate them...
:)
as mentioned there're so many theories out there but it doesn't meant that are all correct , yet it doesn't mean that none of them are good... but to know their existence and having our own experience make us to improve

thanks again to all of you , :) ciaooo

You also need to think about on low, lower, low'ish jumps, will the brake setting you use allow you enough altitude(once you get flying) to make over obstacles or make it back to the LZ...

This is very true. Usually when I static line or get a pca (which usually means im at a lower jump) I choose to put my canopy in shallow breaks to get it flying faster and get me a better flare. I also use it if you have to fly over something. Again, only with pca or static line because of the increased chance for a good heading. I will attach a video of me and a buddy jumping a 150' bridge. First jumper is in deep brakes and it takes his canopy a bit longer to get moving. You can see what happens. My canopy was in shallow brakes...and you can see what happens. It does make a difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpDCAL-N4h8

If you're able to have a dedicated slider down rig - I would take off the slider for better glide , flare and OH

What happens if your canopy accidentally disconnects on one riser? If you have no slider, you streamer. If you have a slider, it would potentially get hung up. This has actually saved lives before. I'll take the lesser glide for a +1 to "stacking the odds in my favor"

First off, I totally agree with you.

But as an aside, I've actually thought about changing my 3 rings to RW-6 rings. That way, you can use a 3 ring system when tree landing, water landing, or getting busted is likely, and replace with L-bars whenever you want, so you could use it without a slider or fear of a 3-ring disconnection.

Another option is to put a 220lb removable link (like a single chain link with a gate) around your white loop on your 3 ring. This will prevent your 3 ring from being able to be cut away. This is a little extreme for me personally but I know people who do it.

I think you both are over thinking it.
After 5000+ SKY jumps I have Never
had a set of 3-rings come undone.

Better find some wood to knock on. It's happened in the past. If you don't learn from the past, you participate in the future.

I heard this argument so often now, and for me it neither makes sense in theory, nor any of the (few) videos of riser disconnects show that the slider helps, in fact, im really sure that a riser disonnect without a slider will give you less sink rate than with a slider in for the majority of cases.

have a look at my attached drawing, there are 3 scenarios in case of one side riser disconnect. first on the left, what happened to sketchy andy. as you can see in the video aswell, the disconnected side of the canopy just flopps up, and is fully collapsed and not carrying any weight anymore. (theres another video of a aussie guy at griset, video says august 2007), which is outside video that shows exactly the same that the disconnected side is fully flopped up and collapsed although there was a slider in the system.
the only thing that the disconnected side does, is that it pulls up the slider further towards the canopy, deforming the "good" side of the canopy. to which degree that happens will of course greatly depend on how much pressure and air the "good" side still gets, so i suppose this will vary greatly with wingload, canopy type, and if its vented or not.
im pretty sure that drawing on the far right with one side completely disconnected from you, but the other side fully open not deformed will "fly" or at least slow your decent down more than a deformed "good" side as with the left one. (since you have a bigger projected area of fabric open above your head)
i suppose we would have to do multiple droptests with both configurations with multiple different canopies and wingloads to really see if theres a difference in decent rate, but im really sure, that if it makes a difference, that the slider in version would be worse.

the only scenario where the slider could do a helpful job is when the riser that is still connected is the one that has the slider secured to it, and that it is secured good enough so that it will carry sufficient load to keep the disconnected side from flopping up and away, see drawing in the middle. i think that the tape-with-a-button-on securing thing that some manufacturers build on their risers to secure the slider will not do the job in most circumstances and will open, leading to scenario on the right side.
also something that pops up in my mind here is that in this scenario the disconnected side will have the front riser pulled down significantly further than its back riser. im unsure if this configuration is actually more desirable than a completely disconnected side, i wouldnt bet any money on it at the moment.

so we end up with: the slider could possibly help in case of a riser disconnect, IF the riser that disconnects is not the one where the slider is secured to, and IF the slider is tied down in a manner that it can bear some load, while it would worsen the situation IF any of the above is not the case, and of course this is a scenario that one would think of IF one has a 3 ring system on the rig.
for me thats a WAY too specific scenario to make a valid argument for leaving the slider in...

so, i would love to once and for all put this to the test. lets get a datalogger and do some skydives.

edit to add links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnR5fsm3K2w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h52bFl9qqmE

Leave the slider in if you are lazy. A term jump followed by sd. The main prob is that peeps dont know how to do the transition from SU to SD. This is a prob that i address in my Euro course. Su
Or Sd to SU. Gotta deal with the slider and steeringlines vs slider and guiderings. rigging one´s gear is so much more than important than flailin an exit. IMHO one should be a rigger to pull off the sport.
Take care,
space.