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Does anybody have data on what is the minimun length of toggle setting that will still give you full flight in a slider up configuration for different sizes? Measure from bottom of shallow break setting fish eye to toggle grommet. By minimum i mean that if you shorten the setting shorter than this minimum the canopy induced drag will start to increase.

Example: 24.5 inches for my ace 260.

You just need to lay the canopy out on it's side and let the airfoil fall "straight" (i.e. no tail deflection). The "standard" slider up toggle setting is where the toggle exactly touches the ring with no tail deflection.

Exactly what i needed to know. Thanks Tom

Do you know if this is how canopy manufacturers mark the factory toggle setting?

Not even close

I'm 6'5'' (i.e. I have long arms ) and on all my canopies had to shorten the steereing lines quite much.

It's how skydiving manufacturers mark them. It's also the method Apex uses for everything except the "slider down" toggle setting on the Lobo.

Generally, if there is a loop fingertrapped and sewn down at the end of the line, that's how it was determined.

I recently added a second toggle position to my Blackjacks as well. It makes a world of difference when jumping slider-off. The canopy responds to toggle input much better and flares like a completely different canopy.

Your ideal settings will depend on the length of your risers and the length of your upper appendages. I stood on the landing of a stair well with my rig on and had my wife hold my canopy and lines above me with some tension in the system. Using the highly-scientific method of raising my arms up and down with toggles in my hands, I came to the conclusion that I could stretch my arms high enough to get the grommet in the toggle 6 inches above the guide ring on the riser. I decided to put the slider-off toggle setting 5 inches higher on the line so I didn't have to stretch all the time. : )

~ Chris

I prefer to just use a sliding backstop knot, so I can adjust it on the fly. I usually make adjustments in the LZ, just after landing, because it only takes 30 seconds or so to move the toggles.

I also like that the sliding knot system lets me make adjustments as fine as I want, and continue adjusting whenever I feel the desire to do so.

Tom, I've found the knot incompatible with the various line-over toggles on the market. If there's a knot in the line instead of a finger-trapped loop, most of the toggles would require "puncturing" the dacron with the pin or cable. And with a knot in the line, it won't likely clear the guide ring all that well. For slider-off with regular big-grabs, the knot works great. But for slider-up with oh-shit toggles, not so much.

Thoughts?

~ Chris

I use the Adrenalin line release toggles with a knot. I've only tested the system in flight three times, but the release worked smoothly on those three. I did not experience any hang up through the ring on release.

You don't need to put the release system through the dacron. You can just use the backstop knot as intended. With the Adrenalin and Apex line release toggles the channel is small enough that the knot remains outside it, and the release direction means the knot never has to pass through the channel.

The only line release toggles I've seen where the channel appeared to be too large to use with a knot system were the Bad Seed version, where there was no pass through channel (the loop was external to the toggle), but I disliked that system because of it's tendency to kink the release cable, so I've never used it anyway.

I have some photos of the set up on the Adrenalin toggle on my phone, but I think they're too big to attach here. If you want I can try to email or text you the photo series.

FWIW, I've never cleared a live line over on any line release toggles. The only line over I've had to clear was on a standard slider up system before the advent of line release toggles, and I used a hook knife to cut the toggle off the line.


edit: I was able to shrink one photo and attach it here. It's not very clear because you can't see the back of the system with the white loop, but hopefully it shows enough. I'll try to find one that's small enough and shows the other side of the toggle.

I can picture what you're saying. Makes sense.

~ Chris

Here's a photo of the back of the toggle.

This is the setup I am currently using for slider up.

edit: changed "slider" to "slider up"

For slider off I always have had to take off couple inches of break line to get a good flare. For slider up taking some inches could take away the capacity of the canopy to fly full speed...which happens to be ok in a lot of situation since most of the time I fly in brakes anyway. However, in the event that I want that extra glide I want the canopy to be able to do so. Having said that, my concern was that if the toggle setting is made to long to get to full flight you could risk going past it and now when you put your arms up then you actually have the opposite effect i.e. the tail starts flapping and you loose lift.

As long as you are not applying any inputs (riser or toggle) you probably won't see any tail flutter. In my experience the internal pressure of the canopy is sufficient to hold the tail steady in level full flight.

If I understood correctly, I have to strongly disagree. On most of skydiving canopies there's (at least) a bit of slack on steering lines, so when you pull the fronts, you don't pull your tail at the same time (which makes canopy very shaky)

there are some exceptions (like Sabre2). However in BASE IMHO it's good I to also leave a bit of slack in case you have to use fronts to get to the LZ.

Does this not contradict what you see the tail of the canopy do when both toggles are lost? Do you consider the trailing control line to be an input?

I don't understand how pulling on the fronts could ever deflect the tail. Could you explain this a little more?

No. If you have trailing control lines and apply no input the tail stays straight. It's when you apply inputs (via rear riser, usually) that the tail flutters and deforms.

1) If the brake lines are too short they can have little to no slack when hands are all the way up.

2) When you pull down the front risers you (hopefully) still have the toggles in your hands.

3) Figured it out yet?

Since your toggles are usually in your hand when you pull on the front risers, you can deflect the tail quite a bit while pulling on one or both risers.

I have a sabre 150 that developed this after some time. I had my rigger build longer lower control lines (below the brake setting) and it eliminated the "bucking canopy" problem.

I usually flare with both toggles in one hand when I swoop my BASE canopy so I can impress the sky goddesses . But yes, I get it now, and thanks for the clarification.