Basejumper.com - archive

Looking for opinions on tailgates on rollovers. A little over half the people I've talked to about it use them and the ones who don't have said it causes off headings and that they've never experienced a line over without one on a rollover. I've used tailgates on all of my unpacked jumps and had reasonable heading performance on TARDs and TARD overs (except in weird winds) but fairly shitty heading performance with rollovers.

tailgates for unpacked = no IMHO. there is a video some where with a hang up on a smokestack.
take care.
space

I just do a shitty quick pro pack for tards...and fuck putting a tailgate on for a rollover.....unpacked is meant to be easy and lazy lol.....might aswell just pack it properly in your rig if u gonna go to so much effort for unpacked jumps

Every roll over I have seen was done without a tailgate and worked out great, I could be wrong but how much can the tailgate really do for you being the canopy is already out of the container?

I thought you were there when I asked that Ryan kid why he didn't use a tailgate as he was on the edge. He jumped and had a line over. There were like two or three in quick succession in that group.

Probably jumping in a tail wind or some shit like that.....

Since the report was line overs and not canopy wraps, that's probably not the most likely scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGzDplZGeM

"On my second ever Base jump"


...

This video doesn't seem pertinent to the question. I see no attempt to steer the canopy. Does anyone else see a line over? I won't base anything at all on the person's description because it was simply panic.

....

To answer the question, I do use a tail gate.

When doing a rollover, especially if your launch sucks, The canopy starts to fall, the tail will blow up and out which *cab* allow the brake lines to come around the side and/or front.

If you help steer it, chances are your heading performance will suffer.
If your launch sucks, the canopy creates a bigger mess to unfurl.
If you aren't able to launch and get a nice symmetrical body position by the time your loading the canopy, the heading is likely to be bad.

Do this instead. This is assuming a person has bothered to get good enough to have a little sense.

After the canopy is set up hanging below you. Take your time to make sure it's straight, and not turning when you jump. Launch as hard as you can, straight out. Not down or at an angle, jumps straight out, then Look at the canopy and follow the rotation around. You don't really need to try and flip. If you jump straight out and then just roll the body forward a tiny bit and keep your eye on the parachute, your body will do the flip with ease.

Don't hold the risers or toggles. Grab them after you load the canopy.

You can get the toggles quickly. After you're good at it, you can do whatever you want to as long as you don't actually influence the risers before the canopy is loaded.

Rollovers are not difficult. Rollovers get difficult when a person tries too hard to make it work.

If we're talking about the same event, he had three line overs in a row (except the last one wasn't a line over, just weird presurizationsafter unstowing toggles too fast in a pretty strong crosswind, but he tossed a toggle anyways) and they were TARDs.

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

That was my video of the third you mention. I noticed the no tailgate on a roll over the other guy was doing. I noticed because it was hanging and I saw the tail lines spread out.

To me, that didn't look like a line over since when it opened, the canopy was square and flying and only folded when he unstowed his brakes. I remember it being a crosswind up top and doing lots of weird things at the bottom (at least one person ended up in a tree). It looked like he unstowed pretty quickly and maybe part of the nose wasn't completely inflated and folded under and would have cleared by plumbing the brakes.

But back to the original topic, I think using a tailgate might make it slightly harder to get the canopy straight since you can't pull the tears out to the side as much to line it up, but once you do manage to get it straight the tailgate shouldn't matter.

This all started after I convinced Jester to use a tailgate on a rollover off a 250' S the other day and he got mad saying that's why he had a 90 left in a narrowish ravine . To be fair, bother me and the other guy each had 90's but that was more likely because we never got our canopies straight due to rushing to get off between breaks in traffic...

I've always used a tailgate doing any unpacked jumps. Seems like cheap insurance to me- is there any real reason not to?

I use them too. I was just wondering how many other people did, and if they noticed and effect on heading performance. For a TARD I totally agree there's no reason not to, but if the conditions are right (no wind to slight headwind) for a rollover and you have a good push and don't let your lines go slack, there really shouldn't be much need for one in my opinion and it should be easier to straighten out your canopy with your rears. Now of course if you have a bad push, dive down, or jump in a slight tailwind and it all goes slack and the lines wrap the canopy for a second then flip it I could see how a line over (or worse) would be easy to get.

I use it for a TARD also. If you perform a toss that leaves the canopy upside down. Then you're pulling the lines directly through the canopy. I have seen this happen MANY times.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my wording, I DO use them for TARDs (and TARD overs). This question was just about rollovers (and I've used them on all my rollovers too). Seems most people agree to use the tailgate so I'll continue to use mine and spend the extra time it takes (when I have it) to make sure the canopy is perfectly straight, and keep my hands off my risers until the canopy is inflated.

I think what's more crucial is a strong, symmetrical launch that ideally keeps the lines loaded slightly (if not fully) the entire way around...

I never use tailgates on rollovers. Tailgates keep the canopy kinda bunched up together when it is hanging, and I like it to open up more which I believe helps with heading performance. If you rollover in no winds, and you have a good launch, then your lines should maintain relative "tension" throughout which will prevent a line from getting over the canopy. Also by not using a tailgate, it is much easier to see the canopy while it is hanging below you, and check for problems with lines and fabric before launching. YMMV.

Tailgates are for pussies. Stow toggles, Line check, clear canopy fabric from lines and you are good. Havent used a tailgate once on my outlaw. Only problem so far was accidentally putting a 360 degree turn on my canopy during a Tard over. Opened perfectly on heading, and perfectly in line twists. Biggest heading performance issue ive noticed with rollovers is how you push off and if your canopy is rotating when you push off. Tailgates are like a babys security blanket, just makes them feel good :p

though i don´t tard it seems to me that i would prefer a line over with LRM than a tailgate hang up at some less forgiving sites. I can land well on open turf with RR or RT (Rear riser and a toggle).
it seems that a lot of peeps IMHO think that flaring for landing is is a moment on its own rather than a continuation of flight.
i would be interested in knowing about TG hangups. i mostly jump terminal with a slidergate. But only for the reduced opening shock.
ideas?
take care.
space

The odds of a tailgate hang up on a properly closed tailgate are incredibly small.

The things that I've seen contribute to tailgate hang ups are:

• Tailgate installed too low on the C line
• Wrong rubber band used (too strong)
• Rubber band girth hitched to tailgate (with wraps inboard of knot)
• Low airspeed

I have only once seen a tailgate hangup that did not involve at least two of these four factors. More often, the tailgate hangups I've seen involved all four.

I bet the odds of a lineover on a properly packed(or unpacked) parachute without a tailgate are incredibly small too! Plus, think of all the money you save not buying rubber bands, tape, or tailgates. And its environmentally friendly. The tailgate wouldnt have even been invented if it wasnt for lazy skydivers and their trash packs.

sorry, i'm bored... i voted no tailgate. i often feel like i'm beating a dead horse when i say, that's because i don't use tailgates. ever.

again, not saying that is right or wrong, it's just my choice. i've also never had a lineover, and land on risers occasionally just for fun, so i'm not afraid of losing a toggle on most jumps.

Think of ALL THAT MONEY!!! That's SO MUCH MONEY!!!

I pack better than you but I'll keep using them. I girth hitch so I don't litter very often, plus I don't wrap the tail gate very tight for rollovers.

being a rigger on the BASE side. IMHO line overs happen about 10% of the time as a guess. Most 99%, clear IMHO. I could be a bit off but it is qzite easy to see the damage caused by line overs that clear or not. look at the canopy material with a view that is almost parallel to the plane. same as lines. one can see damage easily. Or/and, climb inside of the cells and you will be able to see yarn displacement. linear in the trailing edge region. This is line over damage
my packs keeps the steering lines at middle of line spread in the inside of the stabilzers.
one of my best jump bros places his steering lines on the out of the stabs. We are both still alive after almost 30 years in the sport. TG have improved the possibility to pack like shit and have an ok opening. as someone else has stated on the thread. My BASE bro and I would never decline a jump because of a lack of TG.
I do mostly term cliff jumps and use a slidergate as I think I posted for the slower openings.

What I want from my post, This post, a lookabout of LO damage on young canopies. How many jumps on canopy and trailing edge damage.
i have witnessed and packed a canopy with a 10 inch rip in the middle of the trailing edge. The canopy flew and landed with no noticeable diff.
take care.
space.

I think that on SD openings with a tailgate, the number is much lower than on SU openings. I'd estimate something like 1 in 500 as opposed to your observed 1 in 10.

L/O that stick is probably more like 1 in 10,000.

I have canopies with hundreds of (SD) jumps that have zero trailing edge damage. I've seen damage start on canopies with less than 20 SU jumps though.

 

Better than me? Apparently not if you dont even know why you use them. A tree had to be cut down for that lackey band youre using! I double wrap before i rollover your mom :p

The whole mom thing is dumb. I assure you, you're not her type and doubt you're willing to take my Pop's place.

Ya it was just a one time thing. Didnt want anything serious either.

It was pretty lame, youre right sorry. I almost poked my eye out on a damn twig this morning so that has got me operating below standards.

Chuck Peters does not use tailgates.

Packed, unpacked, Slider-UP, Slider-OFF, KL, whatever
does not matter --- Nylon Gangster does not use any
tailgate what-so-ever

Correct Sir ?

I legitimately ask because you have about 100+
jumps more than me last time you updated and
have released a packing video which I bought.

FWIW - the GreenMachine uses a tailgate + rubber band
for every Slider-OFF and use painter's tape plus a slider
for every Slider-UP with an intended delay of 5+ seconds.

What about the nose first inflation aspect of tailgates? Do you think this has merit? At least for solid objects? What are the perceived negatives that make you not want to use one?

you are correct. i stopped using tailgates many years ago.

it is simply my personal opinion that they aren't necessary. i still "teach" its application for the inexperienced, however.

i am not convinced "nose first inflation" is really a thing.

mostly the negatives are, me looking for a tailgate, rubber band, or tape and wasting 30 seconds or more putting it on.

that and the litter. it's weird, but it bugs me. when i did use them, i always larks headed so i never left anything behind. also, painters tape as an option is at least a bit more biodegradable.

Your canopys shape and the way you pack it has a lot more to do with the nose inflating first I would think. My concern is on lower airspeed deployments, I don't want anything that can restrict or alter the opening sequence of my canopies deployment when I FF a low solid object, hang-ups or off headings. I am more certain I will not pack myself a line over than I am that a tailgate is providing any benefit at the cost of adding possible problems. I already have a primary stow that affects the openings, the tailgate is adding to thatand the tailgate and primary stow are pretty close to each other on the line set possibly compounding any potential issue in the opening. Just my way of thinking.

I have literally thousands of slider down openings on daylight, close range, HD video that show the difference between nose first (tailgated) and tail first (untailgated) deployments.

Come by the school some time and we can watch them together and see what you think.

Nose first openings have a better heading rate, so the tailgate actually improves your heading percentages, not the other way around.

My canopy has always opened with the nose inflating first from my observation. I think it would be hard to scientifically state that the tailgate improves your heading percentage over the control. Even if it does it's not enough of a margin with my openings to justify the potential issues of a hang up. If I was running the test I would want at least 20 jumps tailgate on, 20 off, all same jumper, canopy, pack job, and delay. Even with that consistency it doesn't account for the variation in every single BASE jump. Body position, wind, etc.
I'm not bashing tailgates (well I guess I did but it was a joke) and I believe you and your experience with tailgates. With my gear, pack job, and how I jump I believe no tailgate is optimal, but my formula is not the same as everyone else and each person needs to evaluate their setup to make their own decisions.

This post is not specific to Roll-overs.

In recent months, these forums have seen discussions regarding the use of tailgates and the Line Release Mod. And there have been arguments for and against both.

Newer jumpers, if you're collecting advice from these two discussions, please consider the possible ramifications of discontinuing the use of BOTH the tailgate and the LRM. Beaucoup danger, perhaps.

~ Chris

Edited to add "BOTH", for clarity of my intention...

concur. all decisions in BASE come with a potentially hefty price.

****News Flash**** BASE jumping is dangerous, muy peligroso.

So, I need to kill some time in my travels and felt I owe this silly online community this: while I have done hundreds of successful jumps with NO tailgate, I've recently been convinced (Marta yelling at me a bit helped too) to begin once again using them. Sure I got away with it for a long time and I probably could continue to do so with my packjobs, but I really am not cranking out jumps like I may have before so there is no benefit in me saving even a few minutes in a pack job. I still pack pretty fast, but regardless...

Bottom line is, I will start using them again.

I was probably just waiting for something to happen to convince me and well... It happened.

I got a tension knot on a PCA yesterday. It cleared quite quickly but, had it not, it could have been a very stupid reason to land off or smash in.

"Ask a stupid question. Get a stupid answer" happy you didn't get hurt. I did something just as stupid in Twin last fall. I'll send you the video.

It's looks more like a line over.

How much do tailgates prevent tension knots? I know tailgates help prevent line over and premote nose first inflation. For tension knots I was always under the impression they're caused mainly by twists in the brake lines and slack in the D lines (D line wrapping around the twisted cascade of a brake like) so the best way to prevent them is just u twisting your brakes (you should do that anyways to prevent wear and shortening) and pulling tension on the D lines and making sure they don't wande away from the middle (you should do that anyways to prevent line burn on your canopy and to keep the packjob neat, lines in the center, fabric to the outside)