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Bill Booth (inventor of 3-ring) had a rule that I just came across from a totally non jumping related source.

"The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant"

Does this apply to us? Hard to work out: lots more fatalities, lots more jumpers, lots more jumps. Seems like it is safer than 30 years ago to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Booth

the gear is much safer and we the kinks have been ironed out...for the most part. There is still a risk we take with the gear we use but it will work under normal circumstances 9.99 times out of 10. Our death rate has increased in recent years with us taking more and more risk so I would agree with Bill Booths statement.

Good poll question.

I think the gear may be marginally safer but there are *definitely* a lot more jumpers pushing the limits really hard.

It's impressive (and occasionally sad) to watch.

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

http://www.dropzone.com/...About_Safety_19.html

Good examples in BASE include cascading A/B lines, smaller lines on UL canopies, and just the general push toward lighter gear.

I would also say pin rigs go in this category for slider down jumps, but I'm quite sure the vast majority of jumpers would disagree with me on that.

There's also wing suit progression to consider. People don't want to buy 3 or 4 different wing suits before they get to the massive flying carpet, so they convince themselves that they will "take it easy" on a bigger suit. This happens in the motorcycle world a lot too, when beginners buy liter bikes with similar consequences.

If you want to avoid this tendency, it's probably easier than you think. Just do everything you can to be not cool. That's what I do.

Right. So, the smaller canopies around in skydiving are safer then then good old Pegasus, PD, Raven, etc? IMHO fatality rate has increased a lot with faster canopies with landing and collision fatalities.

And how many fatalities have occured in Base because of safer gear? In the Base past, fatalities happened because of bad / unsuitable gear. That has been ironed out (mostly). Including wingsuit. But hey, a canopy and wingsuit will never work if you they something. Period.

 

"The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant"

Does this apply to us? Hard to work out: lots more fatalities, lots more jumpers, lots more jumps. Seems like it is safer than 30 years ago to me.

No. Just a generalized statement. Safety comes from what's between your ears not what's on your back. Unless it's a midget with a shotgun. Then you'd feel pretty fuckin safe. I don't see how if one rig is a cunts hair safer than another that it will change risk analysis and decision making. Is the shit going to open? Ok, then it depends on which asshole is jumping it.

Skydivers just like to make up a bunch of bullshit so they sound important and inflate their superiority complex.

Two decades ago average base jumpers came from skydiving with tons of experience and knowledge in skydiving and started base.
Now, average base jumper comes from skydiving with almost no knowledge and tons of GoPro cameras
Stagnation sucks, so stagnation of the BFL sucks too...and considering above said, we have nothing to worry ...

Ditto

The journey toward your goal is where the gold is!
Instant everything does not make better jumpers.

SKY example: disphit with 12 jumps planning to do
solo head-down on a very crowded load without any
belly/sit/air skills or any tips/pointers/instruction.

BASE example 1: wing suit from the Perrine

BASE example 2: gainer on your 2nd jump

What's between your ears determines what's on your back...

What do you think is sketchy and/or pushing it about cascading A/B lines?

When a canopy opens, the inside A (and maybe B?) lines take a larger amount of force than most of the other lines. On some canopies, the innermost A and B lines are continuous.

I don't think it is sketchy. I just think it eliminates redundancy that smart people built into our gear a long time ago when they were thinking about the risks of jumping a single parachute system.

Youre right, blame GoPro.... Tons? Do you know how many GoPros are in a ton? Im worried, about how I am suppose to transport my tons of GoPros to the bridge. I hate how long it takes me to push all those record buttons before I jump. Thats why I dont even own a GoPro anymore, its so annoying hearing the GoPro comments about new jumpers. If you want to hate on jumping a camera, start with Carl B and dont support his Sunshine Superman film

Lucid is funny name for an American who cannot think straight or understand the clear English words of a guy who speak many languages. Robi never say a word about cameras are bad; he makes point that many today start BASE with more cameras than experience.

Tons was used as paralell construction, not unit of measure!

C

Oh no, its zee Germans. Good job coming to the rescue. The GoPro comments are played out. You mean Robi Said not say, he makes point.?For fuck sake, if you are going to speak a bunch of languages half-assed Id rather speak one correctly :p I dont need to learn a bunch of languages, my government will make everyone learn ours. Suckers.

Lucid. "Psychology (Of a dream) experienced with the dreamer feeling awake, aware of dreaming, and able to control events consciously."
I dont claim to understand everything, quite the opposite. Only the madman is absoloutely sure.

He's trolling you...which is unfortunate given that this is an important topic worthy of discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

People arent out there adding risk to their jumps because the gear has progressed, maybe from the transition between skygear and BASE specific. This is 2015, I dont believe the gear is influencing our excessive risk any more, if so its minimal. A lot of other factors could be brought to light

False.

Wingsuit lines are ridiculously more dangerous exactly because the gear has progressed.

I see what you are saying, I agree somewhat but the gear is being tailored by the decision to want to fly that way. Why not just fly high and pull? Why do 4-5 gainors? The OP quote said safety, progression was my word, perhaps i used the wrong one.

I think you're supporting the spirit of rule #2 with that statement. The gear is safer, but judgement is allowing the BFL's continued expansion anyway.

I don't think it's even a debate. Make the gear as safe as you possibly can...we'll still find a way to burn in.

As a parallel, there was an interesting experiment in the Netherlands which observed a reduction in accidents where road traffic demarcation was deliberately made unclear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

In essence, motorists drive more slowly when it's less clear where they have priority: drivers build in a greater safety margin by necessity.

It's the same with equipment - the more reliable it is, the lower the safety margin its users will apply.

Ya i see how i am supporting it, I am having trouble grasping what is meant by safer gear since all the BASE gear I've had seems the same, just different based on needs. To me it seems like the more comfortable you are Jumping the more you'll push it. I could jump a ratted out old raven and get comfortable with it and start pushing what I do with it just the same as I can my new canopy when it gets here. What drives me to be like that? I dont think its because I perceive my gear as having some level of safety compared to what it use to. Your sentence brings the point across Bill was trying to make I think more clearly. "Make the gear as safe as you possibly can..."

I wasn't intending to direct this specifically at anyone. Sky gods, I can't seem to avoid them. I was walking on a back road and some drunk girl on the sidewalk was mumbling all pissed off about menopause. I righty explained the awkwardness of the situation to her. She couldn't decide whether to drink an ensure or water. She rambled on and started on how she was a marine, had 2800 skydives, jumped into burning man, and was on her way to SD Arizona. I think she was offended by how much I didn't give two shits and that I just wanted to get away from the obviously troubled drunk.

Totally agree Robi. I had just under 500 skydives when I started BASE about 10 years ago, and was worried it wasnt enough. Now people have 50 and are stoked that they waited that long.

I would argue that the gear is about as good of a combination of safe/simple as it can be. The number of fatalities has remained fairly consistent in the last years with a large increase in numbers of jumpers who are active. BASE jumping can be as safe as you want to make it, but will always have that chance of the unknown.

If you only jumped bridges, took short delays, never did aeirals, and only used big open LZs, BASE can be a relatively safe sport. Skydiving analogy being if you only did solos, pulled at 5k, jumped a 200+ sq ft square canopy, and used an AAD. The problem is, swooping, terrain flying, freeflying, aerials, ect are all fun and ways to look cool, so we do them.

Nothing new. We invent the computer and use the extra efficiency to crunch more work. We do 20 punsh ups and want to do 30. Run 3 miles in 20 minutes then start pushing for 19 minutes. Calling it risk compensation and giving it a new name does mean it is anything new. Same old with a different cover. Never been any different whether it be the 19th century or the 21st. One day we will go to mars and then we will want to go outside the solar system. The problem is not opening up to new variables as you progress. The problem is being an idiot and progressing at a speed that is not right for you. There has been idiots since ancient Rome and there still are...just as there were and still are smart people.

Dude, seriously!? You're fucking around with robibird? you must be a squirrel-fanboy.. Personally, I think you've lost ALL credibility.

Interview about evolution of hamster flight

I fuck with everybody. I didn't know I had any credibility to begin with. If I say something absurd I'd hope someone would tell me. I'll pick on someone with less people stoking them off next time. By all means continue stroking each other. You must be the one in charge of the lube?

...ono cega se pametan stidi , budala se ponosi......

Youre just another person to me, dont know what that says and could care less. No hard feelings.

small test for your IQ...

Ya speaking different languages has a lot to do with iq, my 2 year old son learned a language. Hell apes arent far off from devolping a language of their own over time. We can beat our chests, measure cocks, or whatever. Youre smarter than me i dont care. Just for you I will hand my supreme crown of BJer.com stupid shit people say regulator off to you.

Thank god there's Google-translate, besides the German, Swiss-German, English, French I also speak a bit of Italian, but i understand much more than i speak. Oh, and for some reason, i understand Dutch quite well too. Croatian is not on that list, except for "Dober Dan" and "Bijela Kava" as well as "Molim" and "Hvala". At least i can order my favorite drink in my favorite café in Kanfanar and be polite about it.

To get back on topic. here's a GREAT INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO of how stupid and idiotic BASEjumpers seem to be at the Perrine where they let everyone with 50 skydives jump.

"what makes a fool to be proud, makes the normal people ashamed."

Smart people apparently; and that comes from the horses mouth!

speaking of sketchy and wingsuits, my ultimate goal is to be the first to play chicken with a big wall. exit, fly way out, flip a 180, fly back towards the wall, and turn at the last possible second to avoid impact and fly parallel with wall.
what could go wrong?

For fuck sake, if you are going to speak a bunch of languages half-assed Id rather speak one correctly :p .

You are absoloutely correct

I think it's more about how people progress into the sport rather than where they are when they enter it. Someone without an A license that does nothing but very conservative perrine jumps is safer than someone with thousands of skydives and 20 perrine jumps who's going nuts with all their friends at turkey boogie with technical Moab exits/landings.

Hell, if we're really being honest here, aren't most of those 50 skydive BASE jumpers safer (in terms of very serious injury or death) than terrain wingsuit flyers as a whole?

Of course, if we're talking about which group is more dangerous to access and BASE jumping itself...definitely the 50 skydive BASE jumpers. They gonna burn everything.

I'm not saying people should be getting into BASE with 50 skydives. It's a very bad idea. I'm just bored at work...

As long as you have more experience than cameras you're good. I figured out the secret, get rid of all your cameras and you are invincible!
Don't worry my rig is done so I have something to do besides troll all you assholes.
You can thank Squirrel for making my rig so fast. Maybe they get their equipment completed so fast because they are not having internet wars about IQ with crazy people!

absoloutely

I strongly agree with this. The recommended way to get into BASE (200 skydives) is a historical carry over that I think has little relevance for modern slider down jumpers. The problem is that anyone with the urge to chuck themselves off a 500 foot bridge doesn't have a lot of self control in the first place. Convincing them to do 100 Perrine jumps before trying to do their first antenna isn't easy.

Yes. A lot safer. It's customary for cool-guy experienced BASE jumpers to knock the new guys, but the BFL is made up largely of experienced jumpers.

I'm convinced that BASE jumping is a progress trap. Early on your progression makes you a safer jumper, but eventually you'll hit an inflection point where every new "unit" of skill you earn will actually reduce your ability to remain off the BFL.

Unfortunately, the video was removed. There were two jumpers, a girl goes first, going stowed, right after she deploys she goes into fetal position, reaching FAR back for her risers. She overrotates, ending up oriented about 90° to the right, again, knees and legs tucked in. Flashy rig with tye-dye and hip-rings, so it's suitable for aerials, that's probably what she attempted. Let's call her Fetal-Girl.

The other jumper is to her left side, holding a gopro filming her, I have a strong feeling he was her mentor. He wears a jacket. You know, casually slung around his hips, the jacket is tucked in his legstraps, leaving over a foot of fabric past the straps, just dangling around. He does a gainer, pulls a little early, but ok. Lucky, really, he did grab his PC and not his jacket. The good thing is, that probably would've only happened once in his lifetime. Please, meet Jacket-Guy.

Fetal-Girl looked like she never even made a skydive. Have you ever seen a jumper of whatever sorts go cannonball after they deployed? For the life of me, I have not. Jacket-guy, hell, most skydivers are SUPER anal when they jump in shorts and a t-shirt that they tuck their shit in properly. When I jump, I like to sport my flashy überkrass freefly-suit that cost so much money, it could feed a family of six in some ass-backwards 3rd world country like Somalia for a fucking YEAR. But I look good, and all my gear is matchy-matchy, right? And I like to not leave my skin on the road crossing the dz. I also skydive with gloves year-round because for that exact same reason.

Everyone on here should have watched the infamous bounce-video. This wonderful learning-tool. Where, for most jumps, it's quite clear how and WHY they ended in tragedy. But hey, they died doing what they LOVED, so it's totally ok for a 22yrs old to end his life because of some peer-pressure or other, VERY stoopid reason. Maybe someone can link the fatality report to the guy that missed his PC on the first attempt on a 320ft cliff, I believe it was Moab.

The story does not end here. I was chatting with the videographer about it. Guess what he told me, hold your FUCKING breath! He INSISTED that the video be taken down. Clearly, Jacket-Guy wanted to get into Fetal-Girls panties. And he didnt want Fetal-Girl to know how closely they both brushed with death. That shit kills any chances of you getting your dick wet.

Logic would dictate that you'd only do stowed jumps when your nice, flat and stable exits are solid. Personally, I'm a pussy when it comes to stowed jumps. I like to call myself a conservative jumper, but really, I honestly think i lack the required skills and EXPERIENCE of pulling that shit off safely EVERY TIME. So, in essence no stowed jumps for me below 400ft. Yea, definitly not one of them cool kids. But fuck it, I dont like most people, and I like solo-jumps the most anyway.

I will receive the video. Gone for now, but not forgotten. Like our brothers and sisters. Some with thousands of jumps, some with their one and only BASEjump leaping to their death.

Robibird posted a nice article today: A Fatal Attempt - Dr. Deep's World Depth Record 2015; worth a read. Not really appliable to what i wrote further up, but what the heck, when am I making any sense anyway!

A safe jumper is a conservative Jumper. So, everyone be safe out there. This sport can kill you quicker than what it takes you to high-five yourselfs after a jump.

Ummmm, thanks for that novel and your meaningless opinion.

agreed that (name omitted) fucked her jump up royally.

You obviously dont know the other jumper whom you refer to as "jacket-guy", were you insinuating that hes a 50 jump wonder?
you should see some of the proxy lines hes flown over the last year, they're quite impressive and hes a good dude.

I dont know him him and i do not care to know him, nor have I "insinuated" anything. That your awesome friend flying sick lines in his onesie-suit is a fucking idiot, that's a fact. no insinuation needed for me, or anyone else that has seen it, to know that. Could be a good dude. Could easily have been a dead good dude. And now you could be all like "Fly free my awesome friend! BSBD! See you on the other side! Keep a seat for me in Valhala! Condolences to friends and famllies! AT LEAST HE DIED DOING WHAT HE LOVED!". And dont forget to change your FB-pic to black, orange, pink or you sucking his dick.

But you can tell him this much: Lovely greetz from Angry Swiss Guy. Him and Fetal-Girl had an ARMADA of guardian angels working overtime hard that day. Violation of basic safety? Check! Acting like a total douchebag in the aftermath? Check! Bad mentoring? CHECK!

And thanks, I take your "novel"-comment as a compliment actually!

Oh yea, always check on your chest-strap mate!
Basic safety; because you lack it too!

Before i forget! Did Jacket-Guy end up getting into Fetal-Girls panties? I'm sure you're in the know!

I haven't watched the video but just a note that yes I have seen a few beginner BASE go in to fetal position; one in particular a high jump number skydiver.

At the end of the day it's not people with <100 jumps dying. Let's be very real with ourselves here. Everyone loves to smash the easy target on these forums. The <100 jumper with a forward, rear, and chest mount go pro embodies everything that experienced people dislike about the future of the sport, and in some degree, rightfully so. Maybe it makes us feel good or justified that we won't make the same decisions our dear friends have. Then I look at the list and see so many experienced friends who made a severe lapse in judgement, why? Well we can't ask the dead, but we can learn from them.

The most valuable thing in this sport is knowing where your abilities line is. Skydiving helps in many valuable assets to BASE, but it definitely doesn't teach humility (in fact I see it do the opposite sometimes). I find the ones that spend time in strenuous situations in the mountains (skiing, climbing, kayaking, etc) to have a much better concept of the humility it takes to find your abilities line. Crossing it with precision and purpose is what it means to most likely progress in this sport. I say most likely because we are all subject to bad starts, mistakes in judgement, and sheer bad luck.

In Fetal-Girl's defense, she didnt wear a GoPro.

I really suggest reading the article i linked further up, the one about Dr. Deep. That one also talks also about humility. Kinda longish, but really a worth the read!

BTW, transgender-dude, it's called PROXIMITY. Proxy is something computer one or another.

And it's still stoopid! So.

ear wax?