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What are your thoughts on the new ABX system? Especially when it comes to BASE jumping I'm reluctant to jump in line to test new technology, maybe especially so with harness design, but this system looks sexy.

Hopefully the Squirrel Stronglite issues (which seem to have been resolved) don't scare too many people away from new harness tech.

I have been wondering when the new advances seen in modern climbing harness design would find their way onto BASE rigs. I remember bringing the idea up to Marty whe working at Asylum.

The BASE community wasn't ready then (with the exception of a few wingsuits jumpers like Dean who were seeking the lightest possible equipment and having custom projects built) but it seems like jumpers are leaving some of the institutional inertia behind and are becoming more willing to try new designs.

Some of the rigs we worked on were ground-up, one-off lightweight designs that never saw the light of day outside of the friends of the jumpers who commissioned the rigs. It was kind of like the Lockheed Skunkworks... not talked about much outside of closed circles.

I think now is a different time though. I want one of these new harnesses.

Adrenalin tested it for a long time. They usually don t put on market unfinished products. I ordered mine 2 weeks ago without doubts on quality and security. I m one of the first "no sponsorised" guy to order it so you ll have to wait a little for a review;)

That ABX thing which involves a bit of webbing seesawing through another bit if webbing makes a hell of a possible wear point... And that chest buckle gives me the creeps

Cool that someone is pulling the finger out and trying to innovate though. I really like the other features.

anyone have a link to pictures or an article? can't find any information on it.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/adrenalinbase/abx-system-redefining-the-idea-of-a-harness/10153284459848751/ here you go

That's interesting, thanks. I'd like to get my hands on one to check it out :)

From what I gather the ABX option is available for an extra 67€, that's not bad. Seems to be plenty of new gear hitting the base market these days, I've also heard rumors S-fly is releasing a light version of their Snekor rig.

New snekor is almost ready. You probably can already order it if you ask. Really light one and quite nice looking. Little bit more expensive than the ld3 from what i heard.
The Abx is 66.66ht without taxes. It ll be standard on ld3 at least later

I really like the Snekor. It's allways been a bit exspensive but it is a great piece of equipment. And it's freefly safe

I've been toying with ideas for an ultra light rig for quite a while. It might be interesting to play with some thing radically new. I can see some similar ideas in this but there really isn't enough information on parts of the design. I think you could go even farther. When the light weight specter slings came out it started me going, hmmm. A lot of the ideas I've been kicking around relate to joint design. If you can't pound on something with a big honking harness machine and five cord then your down to basically bartacks, and even then relatively low areas and limited stitch count. It led me to ideas about harnesses that would not be dependent on sewing and joint strength. What joints there were would be in shear not peal like most of our normal upper junctions. In some ways it was a throw back to some of my early rigs based on the Prestige harness. it was similar to some of the old military harnesses with an X back rather then a V. Similar to what they are doing here. I think I would go farther. Abandoning hip hardware all together. I was looking at a sliding junction design that would self tighten around the thigh. I don't know how they are doing their upper junction but I was thinking in terms of moving it up off of the chest to a floating point away from and above the shoulder. The peel thing goes away. The front and rear start to share the load of the opening. it was just one of those ideas I played with but never got around to doing any thing about.

Actually the most interesting thing I see there is the circular sewing pattern. I'd really like to do some odd angle pull test on that to see how it does. That looks like a very smart idea to me.

Lee

These dudes built a 99 gram Dyneema paragliding harness.

https://www.facebook.com/...p;type=2&theater

Now that is out side the box.

Lee

I have been waiting for this shift in harness design/concept/manufacturing for years.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my understanding:
Skydiving hardware was designed in the 1940s to accommodate 1-3/4" COTTON webbing. That's when/where we got our heavy steel legstrap buckles, etc. Then NYLON came along, woohoo! Lighter, stronger, but the military grandfathered in the same old hardware laying around, so 1-3/4" nylon became the standard (Type 8?) yielding superior overkill, along with TSO's, etc.
In my opinion, standard skydiving and basejumping rigs are the equivalent of wearing a tank on your back, when all you really need is the equivalent of a pickup truck.
A couple of us researched webbing materials on our own a few years back, found something sexy to replace Type-8, and tested the hell out of it with harness junctions tested to failure in a commercial pull-test rig. At my exit weight, I calculated a 14G safety factor on a worst-case full loading on a single junction! At 14G's, I'll probably tear an aorta or eject a spleen, meaning I have bigger things to worry about than a junction ripping.
So we went ahead and built a harness, which turned out to weigh next to nothing and feel as comfortable as a light jacket. With an OSP 225UL, all-up-weight is 10lbs. After 3 seasons of steady use, it's still showing zero wear.
My amazement is that if a couple of amateurs (and many other successful folks working in small quiet groups around the world) can figure this out on our own, why is it taking the industry names so long to develop this line of thinking?
Anyway, rant complete. Can't wait to see what develops when all the major manufacturers put some serious research into sexy, lightweight harness technology. Just like lightweight canopies are almost standard these days, I can't wait to see what the harness choices are in a few years!

+1

So, has anyone jumped the ABX harness? How do you like it?

It reminds me of Black Diamonds 'swing arm' suspension and the way most climbing harnesses can shift right or left.
My only concern would be that in both these examples it can happen that you get stuck balance-wise on one side of the range of motion the system has.

In case of the climbing harness this is merely somewhat uncomfortable because once loaded it is difficult to shift back to the center due to friction.
With the BD packs I think this is can even be a bit dangerous when it catches you off guard in a situation in which you mustn't lose balance - although I enjoy the feature once I got used to it and knew when the described event would happen.

I am wondering if something similar could happen with the ABX harness. Can anyone comment on that?

I have several jumps on the LD3 ABX/Peak 265. As usual the quality is second to none. It is about 0.5lbs lighter than my previous LD3/Peak 265 setup. It's also even more comfortable than my previous LD3, but I cannot tell if the ABX system makes a difference during opening or flying the canopy. The new buckles and chest strap are great. Set it once, done. Haven't used the Abseiling option, but it's nice that it's there. The seams are definitely unique. Let's hope they are as strong or stronger.

It's in my opinion the most advanced harness on the market.

So now that ABX has been out for a year or so, does anyone want to share their experience with it? Have you gotten less linetwists with slightly off body position? Or does it feel the same as a normal harness? I've heard very opposing opinions on wether it helps a noticeable amount, or it does nothing and screws you once you get linetwists because you can't use harness input to even out risers. It would be great to hear un-biased opinions from people who actually jump it

I have it since last September (48 WS jumps) and I love it.

I can actually "feel" the ABX system working during the openings.

Take a look at this video (I guess the ABX worked on this case):
https://youtu.be/y4AHGaoCqAY

I've seen plenty of people in those harnesses all twisted up. Could they have had more without it? Doubtful.

I have about 70 wingsuit jumps on mine and absolutely love it. Out of those I had twists down at the risers on maybe 2-3 of the jumps (due to uneven flare or bad body position). Super easy to handle getting out of, I think my worst was 1 1/2 twists.

Last season I had major issues with twists on a traditional harness that put me in a few horrible situations that I luckily got out of with minor consequences. On a few of them, the jumpers with me thought I was done. Got to the point of having a great jump and flight and then getting super anxious about pull time because I could never predict when and how bad I might get twisted.

Whether or not the X-system of the harness was fully responsible for keeping me out of any major twists, I'm not sure? I wouldn't claim that it is a cure for all twists, but if I ever buy another harness it will definitely be an ABX. Beyond the X-System, the rest of the harness is badass with amazing build quality. Lightweight, low-bulk harness strapping. Custom, aeronautics grade aluminum buckles. Programmed bartacks. Built-in abseiling points. Super comfortable... So yeah, ABX is so much more than just the X-system. And when one of the most bullshit marketing competitors has to talk shit on their own product pages, they must feel pretty threatened by your equipment.

Super slow in the newsroom today so feeling compelled to respond.

Let me start by saying that all the modern Adrenaline harnesses are beautiful. Nice sleek aerodynamic designs / pin protection, and reinforcements that make even the messiest packers kit up with with a nice clean shape. If any of you feel compelled to choose their gear you're going to get a quality product for sure.

Anyone who wants to style out their Adrenaline rig should definitely contact Wngmark. His rose pattern make Brandon’s one of the most beautiful rigs I've ever seen.

In Chamonix, as you know, we get to see a lot of people wingsuiting and deploying parachutes - specially when you can see the Brevent from your kitchen window (or at least we used to). When I personally see guys at the top of the sport, in ABX rigs, fighting line twists almost to the ground and landing off at three different 3 times, I feel compelled to chime in and call shenanigans. So no matter how distasteful you find Squirrel’s response, a company that claims the ABX is a “small revolution on safety, especially during the opening sequence” might be guilty of creating a false or misleading impression.

Think I’m being too harsh? I’ve had two friends have line twists that resulted in fatal wall strikes. So in my opinion, claims that a harness will help you reduce line twists, better have stronger reviews than “I'm not sure” or a video of a half twist that could be corrected with harness inputs. The burden of proof is on them.

Chalking my opinion up as some brand favoritism is to ignore the fact that I spend a nice chunk of my personal time helping people, no matter what the brand, make safer decisions when they come to Chamonix.

edited to add attachment: "I think my rig is sexy too"

Have you jumped the ABX yourself Lau?

Nope, and I didn't share anything in the above post that would have been better substantiated if I had.

I can only read your question as a means to discredit my observations. Might be more effective to share how you feel safer or get less line twists with your ABX system. You see a lot of openings as well, with a way better cappuccino in your hand. Are you seeing deployments where the harnesses compensates for imperfect body positions? Are your ABX customers getting less line twists? I'm skeptical.

You know what would be an awesome way to win over the skeptics like me? Just get someone to put a long lens on you for your next 5 jumps and drop a shoulder when you pitch.

Pull high, bro!

Lau, you sound like creationist who is defending his belief of God's existence by requiring others to provide evidence of God not existing, instead of delivering the proof of God's whereabouts by yourself.

The ABX system does work, and ABX can make corrections up to a certain degree, for instance when jumper / flyer drops the shoulder down or fly sideways at pull time (sideways in particular). Of course, it cannot correct or prevent something like bad pack job, bad PC or really big mistake in body position.

I was involved in testing of this rig, and I can confirm that ABX does the job it was intended to. For instance, during deployment if you feel a strong kick under the ribs on the one side, indicating asymmetrical load on the harness during deployment. Later, when watching the video of the canopy opening sequence it can be clearly seen the correction of the canopy orientation during inflation. In general, no one has ever presented ABX as the life saver, or the solution that can completely prevent line twists as that would simply be a stupid statement.

There should be a nicer way to defend your point of view by explaining how your rig is great for not having this or that feature, instead of bashing another product in a totally inappropriate way.

...but let me go ahead anyway and try to minimize your feedback to the OP who was asking for the opinion of people with experience in the harness.



Given the number of jumpers that still have severe line-twists while jumping "traditional harnesses,” might it just be possible that a gear manufacturer investing two years of research into new BASE harness technology that may help reduce some of these instances is a great service to the community?

Yes, obviously everyone should still continue to progress in their learning and techniques, but I'm also not dumb enough to think that I'm ever going to be 100% perfect with every single pack job, every single exit, every single flight, flare and pitch. Anything I can do and any gear I can use to help stack the odds in my favor is what I’m going to do.

In the 70 flights I've made in the ABX harness, I do believe that it has contributed to fewer instances of line twists. Under the same circumstances, I know my previous gear setup up would have put me into twists and a more dangerous situation.

 
ABX helps, it's not a magic bullet though and doesn't claim to be.

Go try one, if work is slow take the morning off

Super slow in the newsroom?! Have you not heard about all the Russian hacking to freak out about?!


Agreed, and as I previously stated there are many other great benefits of the ABX harness than just the nitpicking of it’s affect on line-twists.


Again, I agree. Thanks for the plug. Pics attached for those interested in styling out their Adrenalin, Apex or Blacksheep rigs (http://facebook.com/wngmrk).


I fail to see how they are creating a false or misleading impression just because you have seen a few ABX jumpers in bad twists. Adrenalin doesn’t claim to solve the issue*, but to help in reducing the concentration of an asymmetrical load and in my 70 jumps on the harness this has been my experience. It’s easy to go through and pick single lines from every manufacturer’s product marketing and then tell a third-person story that makes the manufacturer “guilty” for creating false or misleading impressions.

*From the Adrenalin description: This system is not 100% guaranteed anti-twist, but it significantly reduces the risks to cause or aggravate twists or rotations at the opening by poor body position, regardless of the type of the jump (low jumps, tracking or wingsuit).


I’m sorry about your friends. Without trying to sound unsympathetic, were they jumping an ABX harness? If not, why is the burden of proof on Adrenalin? If there is a chance that the ABX harness can help to not put jumpers in these same situations, why would you prefer for them to not be flying in one?



I hadn’t replied to your post or questioned your opinion based on your favoritism (though, the two main cynics in this thread both happen to be team pilots for Squirrel and neither of you have jumped the ABX harness). I was one of the beneficiaries of your technical info and procedures for jumping in Cham, as well as your concepts on safer flight techniques. Both were received with open ears and much gratitude. Thanks again.

No one wants to be told that they been swindled. If you pay a bunch of money for something that your friend made for you, then you want to believe it works. There is more science in that sentence than in all base gear ever made

The owner of adrrenline uses the abx and he gets line twists. Phoenix team guys use it and get line twists. People who bought this harness get line twists. Those are facts apparently The facts show that it is not a cure. If it worked then the owner of adrenaline would not get line twists when he uses it. But he does. facts

Lau is right The burden of proof is and should be on the advertiser. Lau is also right that the theory /claim is just a claim.

Sorry about the bad news for people who paid for these claims

Getting kicked in the ribs is a perfect analogy I guess Robi. And as far as that goes lets all remember that an opening parachute is influenced by risers, which are over shoulders and controlled by the shoulders in that stage of inflating. The abx system cannot and does not even in “theory” affect canopy at this stage or at any stage obviously Once it is over your head just like its always been you better get your hands on your risers. Same technique that has been working for yers

I asked the guys at squirrel about this stuff and it turns out they know more about paragliding harness corss bracing than anyone else in base because they have a paraglide background. Cross Braces made paraglider harnesses worse. Not better. If you learn the history then its crap that adrenaline says cross bracing is paraglider technology and does good. History has proven the opposite. There is a reason why paraglide harnesses stopped x bracing years ago.

What squirrel say is there is no magic gear right now. The answer is riser control and technique trainng. So they are saying education is the answer. They are trying to educate and help all jumpers avoid twists instead of trying to bullshit the public and sell a fake cure. Anyone trashing them for that needs to look at themself

The fact that adrenaline is selling a product which IS NOT A CURE as one and hten not talking at all about the REAL way to prevent line twists which is a bunch of controllable factors that works for any jumper in any rigs… that is really sad. Even sadder that unsuspecting people swallow the BS.

Plus if this shit actually worked then squirrel would obviously copy it RIGHT??? Hhahaha. But srsly they would if it worked.

[url=https://imgflip.com/i/1hbrgd]


(Sorry, Jhonny made me do it #WWJD)

As stated prior by others, the system is marketed as helping to reduce instances of line twists - NOT entirely prevent them.

But as previously stated it doesn't help with a dipped shoulder, which was the only time I've gotten fucked by a bunch of linetwists (or body twists if thats how you want to refer to them as my canopy didn't spin up, I spun under it). Uneven hips, which it likely does help to some extent, are easy enough to save from spins because you should already have your hands on your risers pulling them apart by the time that would start to spin you up. So does it really help that much?

And since it takes away the ability to give harness input, does it make it harder to get out of line twists once you get them, which you still can and will get if you dip a shoulder, as stated above?

And to ease the brand war, this is just my thoughts and questions coming from someone who has never jumped a squirrel container or an ABX harness and is not affiliated with either brand. Just someone trying to get some facts and make an educated choice on my next ultralight rig.

Nice try Italiano ;)

Yeah Squirrel has never used bullshit hype ever

Note: Never jumped an ABX never jumped Squirrel. Doubt I will ever jump either. Just trolling like an asshole.

I have 250 jumps with abx harness on my ld3. I didn t buy it for the "anti twist" but for the abseiling option. I paid my gear full price (but Jean No gave me some extra rubber band so i m probably not 100% objective anymore :p)
Did i have twist with it? Yes, 2 times. (shitty body position).
So i it 100% twist proof? No, but nobody claims that.
Did it avoid twist in some occasion? I think so, but yes, nothing to prove it (how?). Just my experience with others gears which let me "know" how they would have reacted in same situation (or maybe my simple mind who believe all the BS :) ). But it seems that others owners opinions are quite similar to mine.
Anyway, personally i didn t heard any users complaining about it but only people who never tried it and/or other brand affiliated guys...

Hi Robi,

lets leave the idea of imaginary friends out of this one ;)
When I raise thoughts of skepticism and shenanigans, I'm quite confident I'm the atheist in this conversation.

I really enjoy our conversations but if you don't think the burden of proof lies on the person presenting a new idea, I'm not sure where we can go from here.

"There should be a nicer way to defend your point of view by explaining how your rig is great for not having this or that feature."

You're right, I could be nicer. My tendency to be direct and blunt can offend people when it is not always my intention. But lets not get it twisted, the only reference I made to my rig was in a silly joke and I thought I was quite complimentary of Jean Noel's work. Clearly it was only the ABX that was in question.

This is a forum. When a manufacturer, no matter the brand, claims revolutionary advances (however big or small) we should all feel free to scrutinize the hell out of it without hurting anyone's feelings. Except for Charley, we should all be trying to hurt Charley's feelings.

... marketing is an interesting beast!
When you are late with your idea , and you see that your competitor just came out with one more idea , than nothing else is left than to bash, bad mouth and call it BS..
After the very bad public reaction on that legendary marketing move, HQ of SQ remove that sentence on their web regarding his rig while ago.....
Honestly , I like that way as that is best promotion you can hope for.
Mr. Kurlinklus fail his profession.. he should have been lawyer not a med. doctor. He would be the terrible one :), so yes, leave him out of this... better for all..

Has any riser load testing been done (experimental or real world)?

People talk about "reducing the chance of line twists". Good luck testing that. BUT, if the ABX greatly reduced load differential on risers on deployment during asymmetric body position, that's something you can get tangible results on.

Is there a way to hook up a load cell to each riser that is safe for real world testing, such as at the perrine? If so and it hasn't been done, then it would be easy to get data and we should do it. On the ABX and a standard harness

god damn I wish I had any relevant experience or expertise to add to this thread, cuz want in on this shit storm like a russian wants a cliff strike... I can't explain it, it's just drawn to me.

Anyone? Tom?

Has anyone heard of someone using load cells on risers, such that we could jump a packed BASE rig with them gathering data? If not, sounds like a hell of a good project. A quick google search shows we have the technology.

http://www.messring.de/...seat-belt-load-cell/
this one has 500 N, 6 kN and 16 kN load cells.

http://www.te.com/...tml#mdp-tabs-content
This one goes from 5kn to 25kn.

https://www.kistler.com/?type=669&fid=58702


Well, I definitely would wear a full face while I'm doing it. The last thing I want to do is go in from a riser-slap with a chunk of metal on it.

I messaged them to get a price for those load cells out of curiosity...I'll let you know when I hear back

This might assist.

http://www.pcprg.com/sym01out.htm

<3<3<3

"Why superstitions help athletes perform better":

http://nymag.com/...-perform-better.html

I find it funny that if something is not a 100% foolproof idea that revolutionises things it gets totally rejected. Black and white, all or nothing thinking is generally only going to be a mental stumbling block. Having never jumped one, it really does sound like it helps a bit, even if it is just a confidence boost. As for statistics, what exactly do we measure?

In BASE, that's an evolved survival response.

Additional complexity can have unforseseen consequences, which can be fatal in this environment. As a result, we (rightfully) mistrust new technologies, and personally I tend to test them and if I don't see a DEFINITE improvement I discard them in a effort to keep my systems as simple as possible.

The reason BASE systems are so reliable is that they are very, very simple. Any individual idea may sound good on it's own, but my standard for adding complexity is very high because adding two or three new wrinkles can create random factors that I don't anticipate.

Please note that I am not expressing an opinion about the ABX or any other specific piece of gear--just a general philosophy that may explain why you see jumpers rejecting new ideas if they aren't 100% foolproof.

I only have one load cell, and it's currently embedded in our static line testing rig.

As the ABX is not making anything more complex for the user than any other harness I don't see your point.
I think we can agree that there is no bad side effect when you use it.
I'm a bit sceptical on the ABX, just because it cannot really be proven, and I like numbers.
But saying it's bullshit has the same problem, it cannot be proven.
Seeing that some people with ABX still have line twists is not a proof that it's not reducing the numbers, and Adrenalin never said that it's a 100% system.

One thing for me is sure, the first disclaimer on the Squirrel page was bad and disrespectful. And I still think that the NBS has nothing to do on this site.
I would just remind that the Squirrel Sumo was described as a 2 pieces suit with the performances of a one-piece, and this is proven as bullshit.
You have to be clean before asking the others the same.

My final answer about the ABX: it's lighter and take less room than the classic type 8 webbing and the classic buckles + the chest strap is so easy to close without mistake.

Anton bro the only thing that everyone agrees on is that the ABX doesn’t work. We can not agree that there is “no bad side effect”. When top wingsuit base jumpers and the owner of the design get line twists that makes it look like it makes things worse not better! That is what happened with this same “technology” in paragliding. Line twists and bad glider behavior got worse not better. That is why it was stopped. So your wrong about we all agree



Ask any paraglider pilot who was flying during the time of crossbracing and hteyll tell you that it was one of the worst things ever but it took a few years for people to figure it out! Abx is claimed to be paraglider tech but the history on this paraglider tech is clear. Calling bullshit is saying a fact about the history of the technology. It has proven to be bullshit



So squirrel say magic is bullshit. You say that is disrespectful but that is the reaction of a sensitive French baby. I say selling snake oil is disrespectful

It isn't snake oil. It's an innovative attempt and bringing the technology forward. Maybe it's not better. Maybe it's black death. Maybe the next thing will be revolutionary (be it from them or someone else). We are ALL test pilots. Deal with it. Don't be bitter about it.

I can tell you one thing, "bro" with "12000 jumps in 7 years", THEY are doing a hell of a lot more for the BASE community than you are sitting in a chair and lambasting them like you know everything. How about the tailgate? vents? modern tailpocket designs? Someone has to try new things to make new advancements. Even if their design does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help line twists, I'm still extremely glad they spent that time and money developing something with the intent to make us safer out there. Or did you think they were trying to promote their "snake oil" to make millions?

First of all I am Antoine and the way you talk to me makes me think that I don't wnat to be your bro.

Second everyone means everyone, not everyone less for exemple here robi, but maybe you haven't read the previous messages.
Again, I don't know if it's efficient or not, but because I'm not like you, I don't guess any way.
I just know that some people (who have ABX) say they think it works and some say it does change nothing, I never have the testimony of somebody saying that it's worst than a normal system. And guess what ? It's just what I wrote before !
I'm sure that you know people who are jumping with ABX and who thinks that they have moe line twists than with a classic system because I don't.

So you come here without any proof of nothing, and you call me sensitive French baby ? May be I am, but I prefer to act like me than like you.

I've just checked some paragliding company website and what a surprise that they (I cannot say how many) have harnesses with the ABS (same technology as ABX)...http://www.flyneo.com/en/harnesses-neo/ for exemple
Didn't you said that the technology was stopped ?

BTW I hope you agree that saying that a 2 pieces tracksuit has the same performances as a onepiece is snake oil, and so Squirrel by writting that on their website were disrespectful ?
Yes you can answer to all my arguments and not skipping the ones that are not going in your way.

There are a number of current harnesses in production with cross bracing (http://www.flybgd.com/...ess-snug-42-0-0.html , http://gingliders.com/harnesses/gingo-3/). In PG they work almost a bit too well if it's fully cross-braced since you lose a lot of the feel for your wing when you hit a thermal or turbulence and you lose a lot of your ability to weight shift.

The simpler version of cross-bracing that's on many harnesses is just an extra diagonal strap in the front that prevents you from completely loading only one side of your wing.

So they do work, they're just not very popular in PG. But they've been proven to dampen or prevent a death spiral when you have a 50% collapse on one side and all of a sudden you're hanging sideways from just half of your wing.

I suspect that if you were to compare two harnesses with a 160lb dummy and put the risers in a linetwist with one 10-20cm higher than the other, the ABX would distribute the load more evenly and reduce the diving/spiraling. Wouldn't be too hard to test.

Although relatively similar in concept, ABS in paragliding and ABX in BASE are operating in very different environment.
In PG the ABS functions under fully inflated paraglider, and in the event of an asymmetric collapse of a paraglider ABS transfers part of the flyer's weight from the collapsed side to the non-collapsed side, and stops all the weight dropping onto the collapsed side. Another difference is that ABS is mounted on the front side of PG seat, and paraglider wing is attached to the harness almost exactly above the flyer's center of gravity (CG).
On the other hand, ABX system is intended to operate during opening sequence, when canopy start inflating. If there is any kind of asymmetry in loading and/or geometry of left and right side of the harness (and risers), ABX will help to distribute load more evenly and to correct geometry (to a certain degree). This will correct the geometry of inflating canopy and provide conditions for more symmetric and even inflation on both sides of the canopy, thus preventing, or reducing the amount of off-heading (something similar like pulling on your riser during opening, to correct off heading). In contrast to the PG harness, BASE canopy is attached to the harness at the shoulders, way above jumper's CG, and ABX system serves no function once the canopy is fully inflated and flying.
Here are some canopy opening videos, filmed on jumps with ABX equipped harness. I think that videos will speak for itslef.

https://youtu.be/5YZBDJhcRdU

On these videos I was intentionally pulling with shoulder down or slipping sideways. I was avoiding pulling the risers (with one or both hands), what I usually do to correct canopy direction during opening. That was quite hard to do, as it is in my muscle memory, but was necessary to do it that way in order to see how ABX works. On many jumps I felt that canopy would continue to rotate off heading to full 180°or more, but was actually pretty eagerly stopped by ABX... (my ribs told me that )

Robis post which is by someone who actually can write english is correct about the difference between ABS and ABX. The ABX cross brace system which goes from one side of the harness to the opposite hang point is more like the cross bracing from the past.



gharrop the harnesses that you linked to as well as the NEO link from Antoine do not show harnesses with the cross bracing. ABS means Anti Balance System and it is not cross bracing. Semi cross braced is not cross braced. significant difference.



Full cross bracing which goes from one outer edge of the harness to the opposite hang point was proven to be a terrible idea 15+ years ago. Antoine NEO is French like you. Call them right now and ask them about the history of cross bracing in paragliding harnesses then come back here and post what they tell you. This is what NEO emailed back to me:







Cross Braces increase the risk of twist. This is the way it acts with low hanging points like paraglider harnesses : it helps to block the harness in the rolling way but block also the turn, and increase the risk of twist, especially if your front belt is tight. This is main reason why paragliding harness designers stopped to use it. 20 years ago, some manufacturers made few cross bracing harnesses, but this system did not stay long. I do not know the cross brace effect with high hanging points like skydive and base harnesses.







Front belt = the chest strap which determines the width of your hang points. In skydiving and bASE this is the distance between our risers which is decided by our chest strap setting and our shoulders. So that free tip from NEO is wider = less chance of twists.



That video does speak for itself. Anyone can cherrypick 10 random jumps where they almost got line twists but didn’t. If we saw every jump you did then we’d see the jumps where you got line twists too using this harness. Im not a genius but..



Oh and Antoine, sorry, I shouldn’t post after beers. I can actually spell most of the time. I really didn’t want to offend you. I don’t give shit about exaggerating the performance of a track suit. Fuck squirrel for exaggerating and I’m not saying you should buy their shit. but I DO give a shit about saying that line twists can be cured with paraglider technology that has been proven to not work. I think this is a case where some people in BASE got sold



And Zebu you might have gone a little too far there my mission is not to attack adrenaline. What I want to do is point out that line twists do have a cure - and the cure isn’t buying a new harness. Gargoyle, Perigee, abx, whatever, the cure for line twists is action not money. The cure for AIDS is money.



I think its pretty funny that everyone who has the abx says ya we all still get line twists but it totally works! I guess it is an illogical sport from the beginning. ok guys good luck.

They invented color TV a while ago, you can trade in that B&W now :)

It only show that you still don t understand the difference between "100% twist proof" and "help to reduce twist". Even with our poor english i think it s quite clear and easily understable...

Well yeah, it's going to increase the chances of getting twisted in your harness because it pulls the hang points/carabiners together. But once you are in twists it won't dive as much. Of course ABX doesn't change your hang points.

That is a good point, though. Over-tightened chest straps are rarely discussed as a cause of line twists, especially slider down.

That would be because they really have fuck all to do with it. Especially if the slider is tied down instead of being removed.

Which is another reason the slider should be removed for SD. But even with the slider it still affects it.

Next time you're in a hanging harness try putting yourself in line twist with a normal and overly tightened chest strap. Just a couple inches makes a big difference.

thats what she said

so is the abx and nbs basically the same or same idea?

No. NBS is just a nice lightweight harness, no cross bracing. If you write squirrel an email you'll get a nice long explanation on it.

*edited for spelling

NBS stood for 'No Bullshit'. It was from a note Squirrel put on their website immediately after the release of Adrenalin's ABX harness in an attempt to neg their competitor's product and say it was 'bullshit', but which was removed after a few hours.
I try not to get into the brand war stuff but I thought it was pretty unprofessional.

The irony being that they also rely on bullshit to sell their gear.

Edit: By bullshit I mean marketing.

Says you. Plenty of people feel the opposite. But that's a different argument for a different thread.

I understand your theory but doubt it's practical relevance. There are many more factors I would place above my chest strap being too tight.

Any harness that is over-tightened

can cause un-expected problems!

Your answer is not equiped with the NBS (No Bullshit System).
Are you really feeling like an honest person after writing that ?

That the NBS harness on the Stream is a light weight dyneema non cross braced harness? Yes I do. What part of that do you disagree with?

NBS is not the name of the harness at all. That's where I disagree.
NBS means No Bullshit System, and is was opposed to the ABX in the first description that went out.
NBS is just the name to state that the ABX is bullshit according to Squirrel.
Now if you missed the first text that was written you might no understand some of the previous reactions in this discussion.

Fair enough. And yeah I never saw the original text. I was more saying that ABX and NBS weren't the same, ABX is a crossbraced system in a lightweight harness and NBS is just a nice lightweight system.

Again no.
NBS is not a harness.
The harness you got in Squirrel products now is not the same has the one their were using one year ago which was not specially light and new. And NBS went out before this last generation of harness.
NBS is just their way to say that they are not saying bullshit, which IMO is not true at all.

True. Wasatchrider asked if they were the same and I was clarifying they weren't.

The only real NBS is that one:
https://vimeo.com/197820845
Harness is so 2016

How's the harness input on that system?

Painful, I guess...

  I have one and it works!