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http://national.bgnnews.com/...t-turkey-haberi/7873

There is a video of the incident on the internet. It contradicts some of the details in the news reports. This forum is a place to learn; it is not a place for family.

You should delete that video link

If jumpers wish to find that video they will

Please show some respect to his family..

Are you fuckin kidding with this! Take that shit down and show some respect for a great human who lost his life less than 24 hours ago...

Poor taste, no class.

Take the video down

were the jumpers jupmping from some kind of a Platform on a cable across the canyon ?

So tell us, what exactly did you learn from the video? If it was so educational to you why didn't you accompany your link with anything more than a ?



Ha... Right... And the cops and media have never made their way here either...

Family's do come on here , after they grieve most family members type in there loved ones name and it shows up a heap of things some show great jumps that there loved one performed others come up with base fatality list and then of course this will show up this thread , for the time being all that needs to be said is an american jumper has died in a canyon in Turkey jumping from a zip line cable

People who were there will post the correct details in due time

Of course media reports are always wrong they don't know the terms we use in the sport unless the writer is familiar with our gear and sites

Not blaming you or arguing

Just saying

That it doesn't look like he went in the water like the article said. How long between exit, deployment and impact, that it does look like it's the parachute that's entangled rather than the pilot chute, and perhaps also answering the question about the exit point.


Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Speculation often gets hammered on here. I'd rather leave it for others to draw conclusions and get into here if they so wish


Let's just close the forum then.

The same search brings up the video so your argument doesn't do anything to reduce a family's grief.

I'd have thought that this community would be the best place to review actual video since you guys have a much better chance of understanding what's happening.

The video is online, it's public, so, you guys should refrain from discussing and reviewing because why exactly?

RIP

In the end, who cares. We will have opinions on what should or shouldn't be shared. There might be a really important safety issue to discuss and learn from here. High speed malfunctions in base are unsurvivable in almost every scenario. When people have details this is a discussion that needs to be had. Was this a wing suit jump with a premature opening?

If nothing else the video (hard to watch) reminds us that you don't have to be doing something stupid to get caught in this sport. Not pushing the limits, not trying to squeeze in one more twist/flip. Be careful, double triple check everything. Hope to see most of you on an exit at some point. I only met Ian once, 2 months ago... nice guy.
Sucks.

2nd hand info, but pretty accurate I think, and I've spoken to family.
Ian arrived at an expo the day before and completed a Wingsuit jump (first in Turkish history) with three other wingsuiters
Yesterday he jumped in front of about 200 tourists
Flips off a ski style chair suspended 900ft above lake
From video and witness accounts, bridle wrap
, impacted water with little to nothing out
Two variables, canopy was wet from previous day and he did change to a smaller (36) pilot right before
Thanks to Matt blank and all our friends for helping,
All his family and friends in SoCal and around the world are obviously hurting.

Ian was one of a kind and doing amazing things, with grace and beauty.
news on memorial to follow soon
Please be safe friends
Donald

Haven't seen the video, but was this a consequence of an under-rotation on an aerial caused by the object swinging underneath the jumper as he pushed off? Crane baskets, smaller balloons etc all have a tendency to swing - I'm inferring from the reference to a "ski style chair"

From what I see on the video, it doesn't look like a bridle wrap, but more like some line wrap (horseshoeish malfunction)

Sometimes I wonder why reserves aren't used on terminal velocity jumps. In the old, old days, we used our skydiving rigs on tall objects, with a few mods. Reserves were used several times, and saved a few lives. Eventually we all converted to BASE rigs and the mantra was, "Make your main work." This is fine for slider down jumps, but skydiving-like containers have their advantages. The only issue is cost and room for a large BASE canopy. They are light. Even a small round would work.

The other incident on the same day, from the Eiger, was a pilot chute entanglement. Apparently that guy wasn't proxy flying, and dumped pretty high.

I can think of a fair number of incidents where a reserve might have caused a save.

Only for terminal velocity, and you have to pull fairly high. Many wingsuit jumps would fit the bill.

this incident didn't look like it would be terminal velocity. Seems like 300m or around, but I am definitely no expert.

For the same reason they were abandoned in the first place. Bulk, complexity, and an added decision process. In this incident, 900 ft span and a bridle wrap, I don't think it would have made a difference. In most wing suit jumps a high pull is still in the 500-700 ft range. With a high speed malfunction, by the time you identify something has gone wrong, not a ton of time to cutaway and deploy a different canopy. I can't remember exactly but I'd heard that the sorcerer was only cutaway once in real use andnhe cutaway too low to inflate the reserve.

I'll bring up the topic of reserves on the other forum.

I know of two saves that happened way back. One from a 730 foot B, and the other a 1000 foot B. Both had pilot chute issues.

The difference is the newness of BASE jumping has worn off and with it, the gear-fear of low altitude deployment. Back then, the very nature of the jump was the thrill and deployments were initiated at a higher altitude specifically to give time for a reserve deployment if necessary. Today, BASE gear has become so reliable that jumpers intentionally use all available altitude for freefall, leaving only altitude necessary for deployment, plus a small margin for deviation. This tendency makes any additional complexity added by a reserve system, fail the risk assessment test by becoming useless. Jumpers would need to shift their behavior in a direction favoring safety over danger, and that's just about the only direction BASE jumping has not gone since its inception.

It would have saved tons of lives over the last years. Come on guys get over your one chance bullshit dogma. 50 metres are enough to survive with a round reserve.

Define "a lot of lives". Very few fatalities are spinning mals. Cliff strikes, proximity, bridle wraps, wing suits in general are killing us. if you only jump in Norway and pull at 1k then it would make sense possibly. theres a lot of scenarios where people have landed malfunctions with a large 7 cell canopy. If you cut away and hope you're high enough for a round to deploy, you're adding a lot more variables and complexity to a very simple and reliable system.

Im not pro dual canopy rigs by by any means. Mainly just cause of weight. But if your rocking a round reserve I see no need for ever cutting away. If there is a place for reserves in base I see them as more PG style reserve located where the stash bag pocket is on the back, where you just huck a round manually to stop spinning mals or chuck in the event of a pin lock or pc mal. No need to cut away but still an emergency situation, just not as bad of an emergency as what you had. Idk if it were under 3lbs I might consider it.

without going into details wioletta, andre, ian. would you prefer to have these guys alive or do you prefer to be a super cool base jumper having one chance???

also do your homework man. you do not need to cut away. 50metres above ground are fine to deploy an additional round.

buy a BASER, thats a solid solution for people that would want a reserve. The fuck are you arguing about? If demand is there, those systems will be made. But there isnt. Peoples choice to jump whatever gear they buy.

there will be soon my friend. let another 25 people die and everybody tell the same story about how they lived their life to the fullest... believe me you will see things change or not because you will be dead too one day. there is no way to survive ws base and proxy long - check the stats.

I picture you as a large, green troll.

You Sir, are missing the fact that BASE jumping didn't suddenly become dangerous. It has always been dangerous. You also don't seem to understand risk-taking behavior. People who die flying wingsuits close to terrain, or pulling low, or hitting low undergung cliffs have already made a pretty clear statement that safety is not their #1/priority. Sure we are careful, but we don't really try to avoid danger. Danger is why we're in freefall close to something in the first place. Safety can be found in plenty of places.

If someone jumps from a 3,000 foot cliff and pulls at 300 feet, they already passed up 2,700 chances to pull higher.

BASE gear evolved away from two-canopy systems for a reason. The second canopy doesn't get used. If someone wants to pull at a thousand feet above the deck then fine, go ahead and wear a reserve... but people aren't dying that way BASE jumping.

Edit to add: when I started BASE jumping the fatality list was 40 names long. Adding another 25 fatalities is only going to take another year and it's not going to change anything... other than possibly risk access issues to some popular sites.

Bullshit. That's such a whuffo argument. It is you that don't understand risk taking and the people that take the risks. Base jumpers aren't depressed fucks with a deathwish. They are careful, calculated and safety is their #1 priority. And now there's psychological studies that prove exactly that - extreme athletes are superior planners that get satisfaction from executing meticulously planned difficult things. The extreme commitment to safety in those that practice this sport is the essence of what allows us to survive for so long in such a hostile environment.

What we are learning recently is that sadly we underestimated the hostility of the environment.

you can have safety as your first priority doing a very dangerous jump. doesnt mean its not dangerous.

But in all fairness, if people wanted to be completely safe, they wouldnt be terrain flying. It would be a jump and fly away from the cliff and turn it into a skydive type jump.

so you are the one who is a whuffo. ha. i win. you lose.

i don't think you are jumping with anyone i jump with then. because THAT is definitely bullshit.

there's a little truth in everything that is said, and i know it's a joke, but the rule is safety 3rd. i feel that's pretty accurate actually. we are risk takers. maybe not all the time, but people are pushing the limits. it's what we do.

This is usually about the time I make fun of you for posting ignorant shit on the internet. Well, you have done it sir, I have nothing witty to say. Your stupidity is so great that i dont even need to say anything. You clearly arent a BASE jumper

Schlie, you will die too bro, no matter what you do. You can lock yourself in a padded room and never do anything dangerous your entire life and you will still die. The real question isn't if, when or even how you die. The real question is what are you going to choose to do with that little bit of time you get to be alive. I for one would rather have 30 years standing on my feet living my dreams doing what I love than 80 years on my knees hiding from myself. Who would want 80 years locked in a padded room anyway...

One more thing, why don't you tell me a good way to die? Before you say from old age I would like you to go to an old folks home and spend a week with them seeing what their deaths are like and then come back and tell me your real answer...

Old age is not a natural way to die by the way. Very few other creatures on earth die from old age. Mostly humans and the creatures humans take care of. Most other living things get eaten by other animals when they become to weak to fend for them selves...

You mean doesn't, not don't.
Your psychological studies don't mean shit. Or is it doesn't? You tell me, english lesson for the day. Anyway, the studies dont explain the fact that some people can get away with a LOT and some people who have safety as their number one priority mess the smallest of things up and go in. Take me for example, a depressed fuck W/ a deathwish, it seems impossible for me to screw up and safety is generally out the window on my jumps. Shit happens. If only you meticulously planned your post so we would not have to read this garbage that doesn't relate to the incident.
Nobody underestimated BASE, its just that when someone goes in you get scared and need some sort of justification in your head that you won't. You can plan until the sun doesnt shine but it only takes one time when you let your guard down or let something slip. You can also do everything right and still not be able to prevent the inevitable. Death comes to us all, it is what makes life beautiful and gives it meaning.

Ian used to tell me how f*cking stupid the forums are.

I think he would have found it amusing that his Incident forum underlines his argument so perfectly.

Tupac lives

Going into specifics....

Wioletta could not reach her pilot chute, her primary error was improperly sized wing suit which she had herself recognized and was listed for Sale at the time of her death. A front mounted spring loaded pilot chute could have helped I suppose, but this was not the primary issue and sadly an easily preventable one.

Ian had a bridle wrap on a low jump which he was fighting. If you have a bridle strike or wrap, should you immediately deploy a reserve? He mistimed a pull on an aerial which was the primary mistake and also is correctable.

Andre is an odd one for sure, and large jumps with high pulls I could definitely see the advantage of a second canopy. Perhaps a weak pitch or poorly packed pilot chute had a roll to play.

Redundancy is nice I agree, but will added complexity lead to more accidents than it will prevent. Remember this is a sport that I still see people not uncommonly using pull up cords to pack pilot chutes.

I do agree that a small paraglide style reserve would be ideal as far as weight goes, but in a high speed malfunction, as all of these are, it takes more than 50m to get a fully inflated round from a stowed deployment bag.

I saw scotty-bob post a picture on fb, of what I believe is Ian pre jump. He is wearing a stronglite container. That container, and others like it (adrenalins LD series etc) is not suited for aerials due to their length.

Squirrel says it best....

"Please note that the STRONGLITE is not suited to aerials or any application where there is the increased possibility of unstable deployments and a bridle/container entanglement. This is a wingsuit-specific container system."

Could this be a factor?

I think that is Scotty Bob in the picture. He's wearing the same checked shirt in others.

A bridle tangling on an extremity is much more likely to be from poor timing on a pitch than any other factor. I think someone mentioned too, it's some kind of small chairlift which could have slowed a rotation and caused the feeling of needing to pitch early.

Ok, thanks for clarifying

The risk/severity of an entanglement is severly increased when jumping long containers in the event of a premature pitch, etc, like you mention. Just something to be generally reminded of, not necessarily specific to this incident.

Edit for claryfication

It's nice to bring up things that may be contributing factors, but the biggest problem with these forums is that 98% of the posts in an incident thread will end up being about something totally irrelevant from the main point.

At the end of the day almost every death nowadays can be traced back to the question why the err in human judgement? Why do we have to choose the max glide flight to the left when we have the easy steep ridge to the right? Why do we have to gainer in a wingsuit when we could do it without? Why do we have to jump flaming cutaways? Why do we have to jump a rock drop of sub 5 seconds when there is an exit just a few feet away that's safer?

There is no right and wrong answer, but the very real lesson in all of these fatalities is that BASE jumping will kill you. It doesn't care if you're sponsored by Red Bull, or that crazy kid just seeking attention. It will kill you if you disrespect it (and occasionally even if you do everything right). We could sit here all day and speculate on if Ian's shoe lace was .257483 cm too long and caught a micro particulate of rock that...(you get the point). Whatever we do, let's not water down the point of human error in all of this. It is simply the most deadly factor in BASE and we can hopefully use these situations to relate to our own life. I just know that every smiling face of a friend I'll never see again makes me question my own decisions more and more. Write your obituary in your mind friends and do whatever it is that is your end objective, just make sure you're being honest with yourself along the way.

Truth

[topic_drift]

True... but also missing the point of such a forum, which is to look for patterns so we might eradicate risk from systematic causes - examples of which would have included (not referring to this incident in particular) poor pitch technique (and therefore knowing what good and poor are), black rubber bands causing tailgate hang-ups - and so on. We just need to sift through the 2%... You are right in that poor judgement is the #1 reason...

[/topic_drift]

I've seen so many different generations of jumpers reinvent the wheel and think they are the first. So much knowledge gets lost every time a group goes in or quits. The forums and courses are one of the only ways to transmit information across time and people are advocating against both.

I don't mean to push away people from bringing facts to the matters at hand. That will and has truly benefitted us as a community to develop safe techniques.

My main point is that almost every death had a more conservative option without sacrificing convenience. Ie, a very similar but safer line from the same exit, other exits that are safer in the nearby area, not lighting shit on fire, etc etc.

Again, there's nothing wrong with pushing the limits, just be very fucking aware and honest with yourself as to your intentions. You're walking a line and if you have a family walk that line with a magnifying glass.

Edit: this is not a personal attack or even regarding any specific situation past or present. So let's not take this even further out of the spectrum than it already is and I realize I am a hypocrite and helped add to that deviation of the spectrum, oh well. #merica #hashtag

No, but there are statistics to explain those. I know all too well - a really good friend of mine did everything right and still went in earlier this year.

If you are really as depressed a fuck with a deathwish as you claim you would no longer be here. This sport more so than any other gives you ample opportunity to end your own life. But yet you are still here. And I even bet you're not jumping skydiving gear off the Perrine either. You just don't give credence to what at this point has become instinctive.

This incident really sucks. Ian was awesome and even though I didn't know him all that well, I cried when I removed his contact from my phone. Its paradoxical that this happened to him when I did the same stupid exit off the bridge. I don't have a death wish. I did at one point when I started jumping again, but BASE jumping and the awesome people, like Ian, I have met through it really opened up a new perspective for me. I really dislike the cliques I've noticed when hanging out at the bridge, it's partly why our community suffers the way it does, it's like high school for BASE jumpers. I guess it is just human nature. I try to talk to people and approach them when I am in twin and a lot of people look at me like, who the fuck does this guy think he is, or why is this guy talking to me, or maybe I just have a dick growing out of my forehead. Even though I am probably the most anxious and antisocial person out there, at least I try to be nice without casting judgement before getting to know someone. People that are humble and don't judge others, like Ian was, are the people I look up to, the others need to check their ego or leave it at the DZ. This isn't a sport, there is no competition, I joke a lot on here and may come off as a prick but from now on you are all my friends and I will respect this experience for what it is, and keep having fun like our deceased friends would want if they could still be here to jump and live their passion.

Somewhat profoundly true...

Or -- in the absence of predation -- they starve from worn teeth or being unable to gather strength to feed. Elephants, hippos, and large whales come to mind, although there are many other animals that often die without being ingested by another. Kind of an old thread on about a dozen other sites. But anyway, I never met Ian. He sounds like he was a great guy. I wasn't there and I didn't watch the footage. Am I correct in understanding from this forum that this incident was: exit point absorbing launch impulse, leads to unexpectedly low rotation rate, leads to low pitch in less than optimal orientation, leads to bridle wrap, leads to not having an inflated canopy before reaching the deck? If I am being presumptuous or if an investigation is ongoing, I apologize and retract my question.

In reply to stinkydragon
Of course old age is a natural way to die. 150 year old tortoises are a good example
And secondly, your assememt is spot on. I watched Ian's pov footage and footage from the exit point
Exited backwards, rotated with body open (usually did aerials tucked and tight)
Slow rotations, attempted to pitch after double, didn't like it, rotated again and pitched on third rotation.
At this point you can't see anything from exit point except that is he off axis slightly

From his pov there is a hesitation and then the bridle wrap, which he fights until he hit the bank right next to the water.

These forums are heavy, and not enjoyed by many, including myself. Ian was a mentor, a friend and a brother. My hope in sharing this is that hopefully something can be learned, although I am not sure what the lesson is. He was a safe jumper and this was the "safe" jump of that trip, 900 ft over water.

Much love and thanks to all that helped and look forward to seeing and hugging you all
Donald

I am not sure what the lesson is.

I think the lesson is to go flat and stable if
exiting from a new/unfamiliar launch point,
especially if the exit platforms gives way!!

Of course, BSBD to our fallen Brother

Sure we can add: "and this was the "safe" jump of that trip" to the lesson also.

BSBD

Yes

Only two things would have prevented this, Ian not going for a 3. flip, and Ian properly deploying his pc.

It was a bridle wrap which led to a canopy bridle pc entanglement which was unrecoverable in any way with the given altitude and enviroment.

Shut up about the stupid reserves (not talk to you Cork, I love you).

No. We would burn it down just like today's jumpers. We free fell 300 foot objects, opened just above the deck on Half Dome, and pulled low off of 1500 foot antennas. It all depended on the object, and to an extent the jumper, but we used to pull low all of the time with modified skydiving rigs. Back then, big 7 cells were everywhere at the DZ, so we got to know our mains very well. Often we just changed out pilot chutes before we started using BASE rigs. Even after BASE rigs came out, I preferred using my skydiving container on terminal, slider up, objects. This quickly changed with the first commercial BASE specific gear, though.

Our opinion on rounds were, "It didn't hurt anything to wear one." There was a choice back then. Now, skydiving containers are too small to use your BASE main in.