Basejumper.com - archive

Lots of interesting "hersey" info involved in this one. Cutaways, flaming balls...wonder if we will get the full story

http://www.kmvt.com/...-Late-303013791.html

Tom A you were there right?

I was here from 2pm on jumping and there were ~10 others here jumping. None of us thought anything happened even when the news showed up asking about it.

 

Better to burn out than fade away.

I knew him from Skydive Elsinore, great guy lots of positive energy.

http://www.ktvb.com/...twin-falls/70989000/

I'm bad with names. Don't recall this brohiem.

Truly sad day.

Jim Hickey absolutely loved to jump. He would be at the dz when it would be raining, and begging others to get on hop and pop load so the Otter can fly.

I really don't see Jim trying some gnarly shit off the bridge. There had to be some reason why he couldn't toss the PC in time..............

There are no details regarding this fatality at the most frequented bridge in the US? seems fishy to me.

Well, he did land in the water.

On a more germane note, it's only been two days. Quit whining and get a life. Nobody owes you or this forum any "details" or explanation. Call the police and ask for the report if you're so anxious to get a death porn fix.

Condolences to Jim's family and friends.


44

SURE. No one owes anything to this forum. ever. however grundelson makes a point that it is strange that there is zero 0.0-5.? impact analysis as of yet.

RIP, I hope to be jumping at 73.

Robin,

Back in the day, I really enjoyed your BASE-related articles in Skydiving Magazine, which were uniformly excellent. That said, your constant and irrelevant forum responses are similar to that Clinton-era Aerosmith logo'd canopy that comes up for sale in the BJ.com classifieds every few weeks.....they're outdated and of interest to no one.

Great Balls of Fire!!! Any witnesses care to elaborate?

what happened to you man? i used to enjoy your stories, but now it is just burnt out, negative rambling. did all these years on the lot working as a used car salesman catch up to you? you should quit that job already.

This is a great laugh of a statement to make after the abusive message I received after not disclosing 'enough' about an incident ,according to your standards.

Sorry to go off topic. You know how it is with certain people.

Seems to be a lot of hypocrisy around here lately...

Second.

Hey Gary you're awesome man just keep being you!

Short-term memory loss is a biatch, no? Please put down the pipe and step away, little sheila... what I actually said in that PM you chose to reference is that you ought to STFU... not that you weren't "disclosing enough."

And for those of you who took him at his memory-challenged word, here is the "abusive" PM I sent him:

I know what happened too, mate, so aren't you truly a stupid big effing c*** for even hinting at things best left unsaid when <redacted's> other mates are doing their best to keep it all quiet?

I mean, I know you're an Oztard and all, but even the average Oztard isn't this effing stupid. Good on ya, mate, for mothereffing your other mates... not.

This kind of mindless showing off ("nyah nyah nyah I know something you don't") is the mark of a moron with a d*** that fits in an eyedropper.


44

P.S. Apologies to all non-Oztard Ozzies, BTW. I haven't actually met a retarded Ozzie. Totally effing nuts, yes (and I mean that as a compliment) but no retarded Ozzies unless I count my cyber acquaintance with BigEffingC. The Oztard reference was a rhetorical device in a PM designed to get under the BigEffing C's really really REALLY thin skin... I mean, seriously, what Ozzie worth his (or her!) salt would ever characterize anything as "abusive"? Sheesh, is he really even an Ozzie at all -- or just pretending to be one on the web?



Now can we please return this thread to its stated topic and have a little patience? Heck, there's a bounce thread on the Dork Zone about a top-shelf swooper who died in a collision and here we are weeks after that fatality with no details.

This is not uncommon and, as I say above:

--Relax, it's only been a few days.

--Get off your high horse because nobody owes this forum and its visitors any explanation or information. Period.

And here's a very simple bottom line too:

Jim was an experienced and capable jumper who made decisions that resulted in his own death via low pull. Demanding the publication on this forum of any other information is death porn voyeurism. If you think there are lurid details to be learned, then take it private.


44

Robin,

So you are stating it was a low pull? Has that been confirmed or speculation?

Thanks

You have sunk to an all time low.
Thank you for providing the example of the jumper and person never to become

Speculation... based on overwhelming data since parachuting first started that show:

When you hit the water before your canopy deploys, the proximate cause is almost always pulling too low.

44

Ok thanks, your original statement stated he did die via low pull, at least that is how I interpret

"Jim was an experienced and capable jumper who made decisions that resulted in his own death via low pull."

Now I know that your statement is only speculation at this point. The following statement may have been more accurate....

"Jim was an experienced and capable jumper who made decisions that resulted in his own death."

Thanks for the response.

Robin, you have no idea about this incident. I know you think you are relevant but the details of why he hit the water without a parachute are dumber and more insane than you probably realize.

The fact that nothing has been said here is surprising. There were a series of extremely idiotic decisions made by multiple parties that made this little shitshow what it is. I hope someone comes forward with the actual details and participants soon because this has gone on long enough.

Says the hero without the sack to ID himself as he disrespects the death of a fellow jumper in order to take cheap shots at his elders.

I'll say it one more time: By all accounts, Jim was an experienced and capable jumper whose own choices and decisions led to his death.

Yes, it would be nice to know more detail about why he hit the water without enough out to live through it, and that detail may or may not be forthcoming from the person or persons who may have seen the whole jump.

But for now, we all need to have a little patience. Again, check the Dork Zone; just today the people at Elsinore finally posted the results of an investigation they did about a fatality that happened more than three weeks ago.

As for the 8 APR Deland fatality involving a PD swoop team member, the report on that one is still not out... more than a month after it happened.

This fatality happened four days ago. Chill, children. All things come in good time.

44

I have attached the incident report.

In summary:

Jim was attempting a “burning parachute cutaway” jump. He planned to jump with a parachute that had been lit on fire, separate from the burning parachute, and deploy a his normal BASE canopy in freefall. Jim exited the bridge with the burning parachute, according to plan. He separated from the burning parachute too low, and although he deployed his normal parachute normally, there was insufficient altitude for the canopy to inflate prior to impact with the water below the bridge. Jim’s container opened and his canopy achieved line stretch, but with insufficient inflation his descent rate at impact was not survivable. Jim was retrieved by other jumpers to the pick up boat, but was not breathing and had no pulse on retrieval. His body was transported by boat to Centennial Waterfront Park, and he was declared dead there and his remains transferred to the Twin Falls County Coroners office.

You have given up your right to respect in this sport due to your nonsense ramblings of a demented elderly individual; who runs his mouth off about events which you were never there.

Edit: Thank you Tom for the detailed report. Sorry to Jim's family and friends.

Tom,

Thank you for the report. Can you tell me was the canopy lit on fire before he jumped or was it lit after he left the bridge?

Pot, meet kettle. To 99.9 percent of the world, jumping off a bridge with a parachute for any reason represents "a series of extremely idiotic decisions."

Maybe that's why Douggs titled his book "Confessions of an Idiot."

And what exactly is your hurry on this? It's been four days, including a weekend. Basic due diligence in the case of any fatality, parachuting-related or otherwise, takes a while (see Elsinore and Deland fatality references above -- three weeks and still ongoing, respectively, at two of the biggest and most professionally-run parachute centers in the world).*

And you're having a hissy fit because there's no definitive account after four days? What up wid dat, homie?

44

* You are not alone, though, Matt: There are some "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" whiners on those threads too.

I would also like to see an incident report where it mentions the active participants in this, especially since their letterhead happens to be all over the incident report. It is relevant given the last fatality here also had a lot of interesting details that were conveniently overlooked.

Well that just got awkward.

It was lit during the launch process, basically just as he stepped off. In retrospect, it would have been better to light the canopy after it was flying, but Jim was concerned that he would have insufficient time flying the canopy if he had to light it in flight.

I've removed a post attacking me personally from this thread.

Obviously several people posting in this thread want to launch attacks on me in various public forums and on Facebook, but lets please try to keep this thread to discussion of this incident, rather than a re-hashing of personal issues.

Thanks.

Can you elaborate on how it was lit?

Just dropped by this forum because I knew Jim and didn't have much info concerning his 'loss'. Boy! The posted comments that I've read don't seem to be from a very 'close knit community'. That's kind of sad!

The incident report was informative. Thanks.

Never thought Jim as a type of person to try such stunt...

I've asked Jim in the past, if he has ever jumped Ruebidoux and he said it is not safe to jump there, and the reason why he chooses to jump at the bridge was because of safety reasons.

There were two lighting methods used on different jumps.

The original method was to tie a rope through a tennis ball, cover the tennis ball in flammable liquid, and light the tennis ball. Jim then dropped the ball onto the canopy just before launching the roll over.

On his previous jump,this method failed to ignite the canopy. Holes in the canopy indicated that the ignitor (tennis ball) had passed through the center cell of the canopy and continued without lighting the burn canopy.

On this jump, Jim asked to have the canopy lit just before it was dropped to line stretch. He launched as the canopy was dropped. He had practiced and rehearsed this maneuver (dropping the canopy into a rollover and launching at the same time) on three previous cut away practice jumps.

Jim Hickey jumped Rubidoux in November of 2014.

I'm fairly certain that I knew Jim better than 99% of jumpers. I had spent weeks traveling with him. He was fairly quiet about his jumping and his plans, but he definitely had some fairly aggressive plans. At dinner the night before this accident he was discussing his plans to try burning cutaway BASE--that is, do a burning cutaway jump from each of the four object types. He was asking me if I could suggest a suitable building for such a jump. He was also asking for my advice on getting a parachute open from an object less than 50 feet high that he wanted to jump.

Afraid others will see the truth, Tom? I think that cat's out of the bag. This isn't about personal differences. You're out of your fucking mind. Stand up for your fucking decisions and defend yourself if you feel so strongly.

Last time I talked to the man was 3 years ago,,,,,

Anyways, just want to point out that Jim had biggest heart for sport of parachuting than any other fun jumper that I know.

Day after day at the dz, rain or shine, I still remember Jim running around the dz to gather up people to go up and do hop n pops from 1400ft.

I can assure you that he made several loads go despite of low cloud ceiling, I did my lowest altitude exit thanks to Jim Hickey.

So-Cal jumpers will miss him for sure.

I am standing by my words Colin. That's why I put them on my letterhead with my contact information at the bottom, a decision for which you seem to relentlessly attack me.

Let's please leave this thread about a friend's death to discussion of the incident.

Tom,

So on his final jump did Jim drop the tennis ball and then go over? or did an outside observer drop the ball as he left?

Thanks

On the final jump I lit the canopy directly as it was dropped, and Jim launched at the same time.

Cutaway base jumps have a pretty high rate of being fucked up, and most of the Perrine cutaway jumps that i've seen have some form of unstable or low deployments that make them seem decently sketchy.

It seems inappropriate that an elderly man would put himself in a situation requiring such a high level of timing and athleticism. I know that these special projects are often run in the shadows until they're completed, but i would have to assume that MOST experienced jumpers would lean towards not assisting Jim such a silly and dangerous stunt.

I hate hearing these Pern stories and thinking 'why didn't someone notice, stop them, educate them, or otherwise prevent that'?

Is there video of the 10 successful Pern cutaways that Jim did? it might help develop a better understanding of his competence and preparation.

What is the counties take on lighting parachutes on fire attached to a 73 year old and flinging him off of the bridge?

I was always told don't stand on the railing to keep from distracting passing motorists. Now it's OK to light canopies on fire and launch them into the canyon?

Tom, you and I have never met, so I have no ax to grind personally, but have you ever attempted this stunt yourself? And what made you think that Jim could handle this with a positive outcome. On paper, it looks like a poor decision all around. By you and Jim.

This seems like one of those events that brings the magnifying glass very close on keeping the bridge a legal site. IMHO.

Jim was a great guy. I first met and jumped with him when he had about 100 skydives. He was just at my DZ and I am sorry I missed him that day.

The decision of doing the stunt is not the issue as much as the person who decided to help the stunt happen. With years and years of back and forth banter on these forums about rail loads, jumping with water skis on, etc in order to keep the bridge open and the public happy this seems like a hypocritical thing to do. Stunts are cool, hypocrisy is not.

I believe that this fatality, this stunt, truly jeopardizes the access to the bridge. After years of hearing/reading about your rants of other people's stunts doing what you thought was out of bounds, its surprising to me that you would not only be okay with the development of the stunt, But to be an active participant? I'd call a lawyer.

Not directed toward anyone in particular, but how many would be as critical had the stunt worked out as planned?

I know some would, but many would not and of those, some might be tempted to try it themselves. One thing that has been constant throughout BASE jumping's history is that it has progressed *because* of jumpers willing to push the limits.

Instead of criticizing people and decisions based primarily on the outcome, how about looking at how it was approached? If Tom's judgement was that the jumper was capable of performing the stunt, I think it is reasonable to take him at his word.

The incident report indicates that the preparation was extensive, including 10 intentional cutaways prior to the fatal jump.

One thing I would like to know is the details of how the burn canopy was attached and what kind of cutaway mechanism was used.

Condolences to all left behind.

Walt

Unless the test jump canopies were soaked to mimic the heavily degraded performance and excess weight...

I'm no BASE god, more importantly I don't espouse to be one, but 486' ain't a skydive and you're gonna drop like a rock with a shit rag over your head...that won't produce enough drag to chop.

I have no problem telling someone their cool plan is probably retarded and they'll die. Might even video.

But I ain't gonna help. This one's probably gonna sting folks.

Tom,

Do you think your actions will have a potentially detrimental effect on the legality of the jumping the Perrine Bridge?

Do you think your actions and participation, as an "allegedly" experienced jumper, and TF local technical safety advisor, were sound?

And just to be clear. Is standing on the rail "illegal", but soaking canopies in flammable liquids for cutaway stunts and throwing flaming tennis balls into them, is A-OK?

Where is the video? There must have been several cameras above and below.
I would think the police would have asked the other jumpers if there was video since it was a fatality and it may aid in their investigation. Are they in possession of it or was it even offered. Or did it, um, disappear?

Was it smoke crack day at the bRidge? I'm with Slambo on this one, for someone who holds himself with high regard, and seeks to be respected as a mentor who promotes safe BASE jumping, what the fuck! Really? Please tell me Jim had terminal cancer and only days to live as to why "mr snake river base academy" would condone such an act, let alone be a part of it! I'm 42, my Dad is 72, and for him driving to the store at night is a bad idea! Seriously after taking serious ridicule from his highness over the years this is an EPIC fail! I will give you this, way to be a FALSE confidence booster, and participate/endorse a stunt that should have never happened, had you lived up to your pretend level of BASE wisdom!

To all those that knew Jim he sounded like a great guy, and I'm truely
sorry for your loss. I hope I'm still jumping at 50 let alone 73.

+1

I didn't know Jim but it sounds like he was committed.

BSBD

I wouldn't think that this kind of jump would advance the sport of BASE jumping?
Perhaps the sport would be better served by giving some serious thought to it's limitations?

I understand that this individual had seen BASE jumping as his goal and taken it up about ten years ago and had a significant number of jumps under his belt. What I am curious about is where was the majority of his experience acquired? If it was at the Perrine then I would imagine that he had witnessed a lot of stupid crap where people had "gotten away with it " and may not have had the respect for low objects ( eg 486' ) that in my opinion they should.
In this incident I don't think his age was the determining factor (I'm biased, I am ancient :-) ), perhaps his age in the context of his time in the sport didn't give him the depth to have more respect for it's limitations, especially when I read that he was soliciting advice for 50' jumps and burning canopy cutaways from buildings???

I think people become too complacent at the "Potato Bridge " especially those who live there or do the majority of their jumps there. Hopefully, this is a chance to reflect on what is at stake on every fixed object jump and try to keep the BFL membership down.

Regards, B.

Im just going to chalk this one up to a really really really bad idea.

Its easy to criticize people for saying or not saying something, but the decision to take or save your life is your own. When people call the cops on BASE jumpers to "save us from ourselves", its not super cool. Everyone makes their own decisions, and especially by the age of 73, is entitled to do so.

As far as the stunt compromising jumping at twin, I agree it doesnt sound like something that the city counsel would smile upon, even if it went well when the video comes out.

On a positive note, this is the first time ive read much of the incidents thread since someone a while ago figured out how you can block an individual posters comments (Robin). Its kind of hilarious to see everyones angry responses to him, and im sure im missing some awesomely long winded and circuitous posts.

In summary for the younger jumpers out there just getting into the sport, in base its rarely a good idea to cut away a parachute ever, or light one on fire. Oh, and waterfalls are idiotic, as ive been telling people for 10 years.

i agree that everyone makes their own decisions in the end. however, if you're actually friends with someone, maybe your honest opinion on the matter will carry some weight. the pussy in me stops people from doing dumb shit all the time. why? because occasionally people listen to something i say. i imagine there are many people who will listen to to what Tom has to say.

of course it is easy to armchair this one after the fact, but i can't help but get infuriated with the level of stupidity in this fatality.

i would love to see the video of his practice cutaways, as i've heard from people watching them (and that holds zero weight as i did not see them myself) that they were ugly and low and he landed in the water.

regardless, i cannot believe that a 73 year old man was ever going to be the "best prepared jumper in the world to prepare this stunt".

and since it is clearly written as a "stunt", are there not permits required? just curious because that could definitely be a catalyst in shutting that bridge down to BASE jumpers forever. i'm sure some people would think that was a really cool stunt, but i'm sure more people would be pissed you're throwing burning shit off the bridge.

i feel so bad for Jim's real friends and family. totally shitty.

These last two posts are the truth.
Every experienced base jumper gets to make his/her own choices, judgements and descisions.
On saying that the introduction of Fire and BASE in the last few years is just plain, in my opinion, stupid.
Anybody that has ever witness nylon react to fire will understand this is not the way to go.
Nylon life saving device + Fire
Some people need to be reassured their ideas are stupid
BSBD

Says the ostrich with its head in the sand (or should I say up its ass?). You can't avoid my wisdom anymore than you can avoid the truth! Just like truth, my ramblings will catch up with you eventually. But worry not my friend, for just like truth my ramblings will also set you free.

If you think you can just stick your fingers in your ears and say "na na na na na, I can't hear you" well then I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong. It will take so much more than a simple forum block to get rid of me.

Do you think I care if you read my posts on this pitiful website? Do you think I need this? My power is far beyond what you can even imagine. I will reach you.

I will haunt your dreams and I won't let you wake up until I am done. My long windedness will cause you to sleep in and miss work. You will see visions of my cloaked skull avatar in the shadows of every dark corner, and the number 44 will pop up in all manner of unlikely places and situations.

You will run to the dank refuge of dorkzone.com only to find me there too, waiting for you with endless quippy metaphors and more insight into sport parachuting than your feeble brain can possibly handle.

And then finally you will bow down to me. Yes! You, my newest subject, will accept my dominion over all parachute mishap related discussions. Yes, you! my child, will be grateful. You will go forth into the world more mindful of your safety, you will be more humble with your words, and you will speak of me with the reverence I deserve. For truly I say unto you: whomsoever accepts me as their only begotten BASE mentor will surely never experience a 180 and their pilot chutes shall never hesitate, for mine is the power, and the glory, forever and ever.

Amen.


44-2

Is it possible to lock this thread? I think we all agree it wAs not a good idea, but it is over now. no valuable information is actually being discussed now , and I am getting tired reading ramblings of jumpers that just want to write novels.

It's turing into witch hunt now? Blaming who and what?

It is BASE, people die in this sport all the fucking time.

If you don't want to die BASE jumping, then don't BASE, simple.

You guys want to start adding rules and regulations?

F that....

Consensus amongst the some So-Cal jumpers are that, we feel much better after knowing what happened, or at least I feel much better after knowing what happened.

What a epic way to go in.

If you have something to learn from this story, then go ahead, and live by it.
If you think that you have nothing to learn from this story, then fuck it, stop blaming it on others. Ultimately it is the jumper's responsibility. No one else.

at the end, we say, Him Him fuck Him.

yeah, it's simple alright.

some definitions of simple = lacking in knowledge or expertise b (1) : stupid (2) : mentally retarded


it is driving, people die driving all the fucking time.

if you don't want to die driving, then don't drive, simple.

My condolences for his family and everyone that knew him. I hope I'm still as excited, pscyhed, and current at something like he was when I'm in my 70s.

His death is entirely one person's fault. His own. The thing with any exotic jump is that something you didn't expect or didn't leave enough margin for will be what kills or breaks you. It's one thing to criticize potential hypocrisy regarding what kind of jumps/crazy stunts should and shouldn't be done at the perrine.

It's entirely different, inappropriate, callous, spiteful, and immature to lay blame for this at anyone else's feet but the jumper's.

Absolutely Fucking Spot On!

Again, not directed toward anyone in particular, but...

What makes aerials a good idea and intentional cutaways a bad idea?


And let's say you had a close friend who was absolutely determined to do a jump that you considered to be too high risk and he was going to do it regardless of whether you helped him or not. Would you refuse to help, or would you help him with the idea that since he was going to do it anyway, you might be able to increase his chances of survival?

I'm not saying the above was Tom's situation but it may not have been far from it. I don't know what I would do in that situation. Either could easily have a result that would be hard to live with.

Drop me an email and pass me the details how this works, I´ve been thinking about a solution to this issue but been at the same time wondering why it hasn´t been done yet. Apparently it has. :)

Robin,
Let's not forget the Tombstone Challenge where you sat on your pilot chute all day and then jumped stowed without checking it. You came pretty close to burning in then. Shame God didn't hang on to it for a second longer.
OR
The wonderful display of judgement at the Royal Gorge wherein your ultimate wisdom chose to skydive your POS Triathlon. I'm guessing you were listening to The Who on the ride to altitude because you were a goddamn Pinball Wizard as you landed/crashed at the top of the talus and proceeded to hit EVERY rock in your path. Although your final resting place in the middle of the LZ showed exceptional accuracy, I don't believe the "look" you were going for is a kitten caught in a ball of yarn sent through a meat grinder.

You're throwing an awful lot of stones for someone who lives in a quarry.

I'm not a basejumper, I only have 10 skydives. But I've been around both for many years and I knew Jim.

Jim was a very experienced base jumper. His death comes on the heels of the death another very senior skydiver (88). The latter finally encountered a situation he couldn't handle. Jim seems to have inserted himself into one. Many old people stop doing certain things, like driving, because they realize their diminished skills are a hazard to others. Skydiving, base jumping are solo acts and Jim was the only one who died right? So he's the only one impacted right? I suspect there are many folks this morning who'd like to reconsider decisions made that day. Sorry, live with it. And there's probably a few young hawks thinking "Well the old guy couldn't do it but I can". It's crying shame when an accident of any sort takes someone young with a future. Get old and you know the clock's running out, the way you go doesn't matter so much. Unless it does. With his passion and experiences, Jim might have been a mentor for years to come. Not sure this is the lesson he wanted to leave us.

I refuse to throw stones. Let he who is blameless start down that road.

I've admitted to my mistakes, and dredging them up again does nothing to diminish my savior complex.

You are forgiven. Now go, be safe and spread the good news of my coming.


44-2

You're no longer a jumper, nor relevant. Why are you still here? Go make new friends so someone cares enough to bury you when you pass. And stop making this man's thread about you. You've done two jumps. On one you slammed into the ground. And on one you went tandem, in front. Get a life.

That is all. Now back to your regular scheduled bullshit.

^who's this imposter?


44-2

plz try to stay on topic, we have a very well liked person dead and an object being burned. This should be directed at finding the full details of the incident in the intent to mitigate risk in the future.

it's not about you

maybe multiple objects being burned... But Tom, anyone, where are these videos of the successful practice jumps?

I've been able to see through dead wingsuiters old videos why flying too slow over terrain might be a factor in their fatalities, so we should probably see what can be understood from Jims previous videos instead of telling old has-beens that their opinions are as useful as helen keller on a scavenger hunt.

Finally someone understands.

A lot of talk about the Bridge being burned.

It's bad PR...sure. But have any of the established locals had any indication that the bridge is in jeopardy? Pretty sure they just spent a lot of money to build a BASE-friendly visitor's center.

+1

In 2020, base jumpers will talk about the Perrine bridge like base jumpers today talk about Yosemite.

I was thinking we should park on top of Perrine and throw a bond fire. We'll have a party and throw burning logs off the top. Nobody can stop us from jumping there!!!

Umm that its one of my favorite places to jump? I dont get it.

the things i've witnessed in my short time in the sport.. it baffles me we still have access to so many objects!

I wonder if anyone else got that reference.

Well, we still haven't seen any of the successful practice cutaway jumps, but a video of the actual fatality jump has come out on the internet. It's pretty telling how fucking retarded the fatality jump was. The burning canopy barely had any drag at all and wasn't cutaway till way too late to save Jim.

Tom mentioned 10 successful attempts and test burns of 2 other canopies which led the group of them to think this was an ok stunt to perform... the only video i've seen shows they were so fucking wrong it's negligent. So i guess if they want to back up their story they should release the successful stuff.

The margin for error on this was so minuscule, then the actual jump shows huge planning and timing problems... it's only 486ft guys...

it has?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRhCjCboRx8

Discuss.

what the hell? edited my response as I couldn't figure out what happened from poor quality of the video. I think I have an idea now.

You can't tell too much from that video.

I wonder if Jim had thought about deploying his good canopy into the one on fire as a last ditch effort if things looked like they were going to shit.

I apologize in advance, this is a long post. And I'm not a BASE jumper so maybe I'm pissing against the tide. But I knew Jim. I've been reading about Jim's death and the more I learn I can't help but feel some anger and in a way disappointment. Jim was a wonderful man and I respect him and his memory. But I have to say what I'm feeling.

Jim was an experienced jumper and he was also old. He was trying a stunt that would have been a challenge for an experienced jumper half his age. Despite his relative fitness, his reaction time, his quickness to respond, and his ability to survive a mishap were well below prime. Yes Jim knew the risks. I think he courted them. Reading the various posts on this incident, Jim had even more extreme BASE jumps in mind, like fire jumps off all the other BASE elements, and BASE off a 50 foot high building. At 73 Jim wanted to keep pushing the limits. I guess no one wants to die doing what they love but I'm starting to think maybe Jim expected to. By being who he was and doing what he did, Jim got constant positive, reinforcing feedback. Thru constant praise and encouragement, Jim may have believed too much in that feedback without acknowledging the toll time was taking. I've heard it said age is just a number. True, but it's one that never gets smaller.

People die and get injured skydiving and BASE jumping. People who do it know and accept that risk. But nobody's death actually serves the sport except in the lessons learned. I saw a few posts that basically said "what a rad way to go" Sorry, it wasn't. Yes, Jim was reportedly hell bent to do the jump and it was his choice. But he wasn't the only one there with choices to make. There were those who could help set him up, there were those who could cheer him on, there were those who could video the epic jump. And anyone of them had the option to say "Jim, this is not a jump you should make and I won't be a part of it, I won't watch you die or get hurt" I get why some may have thought "it's foolish but if he's going to do it anyway, I'll do what I can to make it safer" And if he had survived, my guess is Jim would have moved on to the next extreme jump he was thinking of with the same basic scenario and so on until - well, an end. Which choice took more courage to tell a friend?

That Jim at 73 was BASE jumping was amazing enough. If he had died in a regular jump I would still feel very sad, but not angry. It was a pointless stunt that did nothing to advance the sport, did nothing to show what's possible for older jumpers. It was Evel KNievel without Showtime and a paycheck. On the contrary, in many ways it injured the sport and possibly affected the future of a classic BASE jumper location that was ideal in many ways for teaching new BASE jumpers how to do it safely.

Jim was a true gentleman, generous and kind. And a real inspiration for many, for many years to come. A legend if you will, and nothing becomes a legend like his death. But I'm sorry, I feel pissed off that this was how he went. I'm reluctant to call it selfish but in a way I think it was. Jim had so much more he could have given to the sport for years to come. Call it giving back to the sport that made his life fulfilled. Now it's lost. You were wrong Jim, this stunt was foolish and unnecessary.

And I wish he was here so I could tell him.

Rolls over it, drops like a fucking rock. For the reasons I surmised earlier with a very rudimentary understanding of parachute performance and the degrading effects of self-sabotaging one.

Compounded by the sheer surprise at the sudden realization that your well drafted, yet poorly researched plan just went to shit is enough to cause missed grabs and hesitation.

Which there is no room for in 486 feet.

Had his practice jumps been under close enough conditions, he probably would have died practicing. Ergo - the practice jumps were ill-conceived for this stunt and should have convinced no one that it had a chance of success.

You don't need to be a jumper to accurately judge the situation. Really well said, and sorry for the loss of your friend

I think they all forgot the fact that wet parachute sometimes takes ages to open.

Seeing the video changes lots of perspective.

How many wet parachute jumps did they do prior to this?

It appears the parachute never fully opened/inflated, likely a result of both the wet fabric and the melting together effects of the fire on the nylon. A potential correction to this could have been to have the canopy more inflated while hanging at line stretch while lighting it, in order to gain more canopy-like flight characteristics, which it seems was the original plan. However, this parachute seemed to remain constantly in a ball of wadded material until the end. It never really appeared to get flying at all, and barely seemed to slow his descent.

Ultimately, yes this does seem like it was a bad decision, and this stunt should likely have never been attempted. I'm sorry for the loss of his friends and to the sport of someone with such a unique perspective.

With regards to the responsibility aspect of this conversation, blaming others is a slippery slope argument which leads to "we're all responsible for base jumping in general which encourages others to jump, which encourages people to do gainers, which encourages people to do Mr. Bills, which leads to fire cutaways." Essentially, the argument would lead to "if you've ever posted a YouTube video of how awesome at base jumping you think you are, then you're just as responsible as anyone else." Or if anyone even knows you jump, it encourages the furthering/progressing of the sport, good or bad. Or gear companies selling gear and marketing it is a causative factor responsible for the deaths of participants. Obviously this slippery slope argument is a reductio ad absurdum to the point that blaming others for the mistake of the final decision maker, the jumper, is a little bit of an opening for us all to be responsible.

Ultimately I believe we're all responsible for our own actions, though I do feel sorry for anyone who participated or advised in this incident, as there must be some personal guilt associated with the incident. Barring any intentional badgering the jumper to make a bad decision, which did not happen here as far as I know, (and even if there were badgering) it is ultimately the end result of the jumper's decision to make that final step and commit to a jump that seals his fate and makes him the responsible party.

With respect to the mistreatment of the bridge's access and permissive use, I do think this was probably an overstep of our given bounds, but I've seen people overstep those bounds every time I visit the bridge (including some people who have hopped aboard the "our bridge will be burnt" train). People stand on the rail, people jump naked mid-day, people drink beer in public and jump wasted, people take illegal drugs publicly, people litter on the trails, people jump from the steel, people yell profanities, and people attach things to the bridge. That is not to say this stunt is just like those things; it is only to say we're all a little responsible for better treatment of the bridge than it receives already. I do understand the argument that involved jumpers should have encouraged a better stewardship of the bridge. If that is your argument, then I agree with you given the available facts. I also understand walt's post concerning what "one might do if the jumper intended to do the jump anyway, and whether you would help to attempt to limit the potential risk." Tough question, and I think it's hard for anyone to answer unless in that situation.

If this stunt were deemed much more certain to succeed (probably with better prior testing of some kind in retrospect), it probably should have included some more protections (safety/fire/environmental staff) or special permissions prior to its actual occurrence. But I believe this stunt probably shouldn't have happened in the first place... at least not here like this, and that permission would likely not have been granted. Maybe something thousands of feet tall could have accommodated it, with fire being lit after flight like a skydive burning cutaway. I've never really understood the point of the burning cutaway. It seemed like a silly distinction versus a regular one.

I give props to Jim for having huge, old balls, and I'm impressed with how into it he was that he'd do something of this caliber. I admire his spirit and drive, but I regret his decision. Unfortunately, I don't think he made a wise choice with this jump, and I don't think that choice respected the betterment of the BASE community. I give my sincerest condolences to his family and friends. BSBD and I hope we've all learned something from this.

^ good post

Very.

^ thanks for this.

Dean,

well written and i agree with you 100%.


sad times.

lots to catch up on today... nailed it man, well put.

Well put. Thoroughly agreed.

Seems like the water gives a false sense of security that leads to increased likelihood of overstepping personal boundaries.

I'm not immune from this temptation and would probably also use it as a testing site. But it would probably be better to only do over water what would do with over solid ground.

I made some bad decisions here.

Jim was my friend. I had a soft spot in my heart for him, and he had a pretty unusual ability to convince me to go along with his plans, and go along on his adventures. I’d get caught up in doing things with (and for) him that I probably wouldn’t have done for almost anyone else. I think the last person I knew who could draw me out like that was Dwain.

I regret my decision to help him with this project. I’d take it back if I could. But obviously, I can’t do that. I wish I’d refused to help when he wanted to go ahead with that last jump despite the wind coming up. Hell, I wish I’d refused to help with the whole thing. But it’s easy to wish for things, and impossible to go back and change them.

I’m sorry he’s gone. I’m sorry I helped him. I’m sorry for any consequences that come down the line from this for BASE generally, or the bridge here specifically.

I regret my poor judgement in this. I wish I could change it. But I can’t. So I will just have to go on being sorry for it.

Darwin awards...

Let`s hope people think twice in the future before trying dumb shit. Sadly, complacency kills and this amazing bridge seems to promote that a lot. Stay safe

I feel sorry for you Tom. Having to live with the guilt of helping your friend kill himself.
I am not surprised that somebody tried this stunt. I'm not surprised that somebody died trying this stunt. I'm not surprised that somebody raped the bridge in such a spectacular fashion. I am however dumbfounded that you were involved with this fiasco on any level.
I couldn't care about the repercussions to bridge access. This is no worse than any number of retarded sideshow stunts performed there every year (http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread). The bridge will get burned in the end because BASEjumpers simply do not know how to behave themselves.

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone..."

I'm not a religious person but this lesson trancends personal belief. Nobody on these boards is completely innocent. Nobody has a sterling record of perfect safety practices and flawless jump-endorsements. Tom made a mistake. He has acknowlegded it and can only move forward having learned from it. In fact, I believe few people on this Earth will carry the weight of this mistake more heavily than him.

There is nothing to be gained from turning against one another and continuing to beat this dead horse. Some of you will walk around, chests puffed out, feeling vindicated in your long-standing anti-Tom track records. Others, myself included, will feel empathy for someone in our lives who will undoubtably be dealing with a bit of a rough patch.

All of us, though, need to be woken up by this. The bridge isn't unbreakable. There are easy things we can do to be better stewards of the sport. I don't need to list them here. They are obvious.

I will once again note that we have an opportunity in October to redeem ourselves in Twin Falls. We can all make the individual decision to jump well within our abilities, act respectfully on and off the bridge, and choose to support local businesses during our time there. In October we will either show them that we are an asset, or underline the recent evidence that we can be a liability.

Let's do a good job here guys. Leave the drugs, stunts, and antics at home. At least through October.

My question to the community, and October organizers, is: What can be done to help redeem ourselves?

I will be at the bridge next week assisting with the canyon cleanup and jumping flat & stable during good conditions.

Do you really believe that will happen?

It's not a matter of chance. We're not rolling dice. We can choose to do a good job. Everyone, individually, can choose to do a good job.

It isn't about throwing rocks. It is about recognizing massive lapses in judgment, this being the latest in a long string. Go to the bridge and ask around if you want to know the real story. It starts coming together quickly. And while you are at it, ask about where and when Brian built the floating pin bridle that was used on a rig with a history of pin/pin flap interference. Ask why someone who is brand new to BASE and who is not a rigger needs to be taught how to build and then use experimental and questionable gear never designed and tested with the rig in question. Some here might not care but the last two deaths at the bridge were both very avoidable and were focused heavily around one person. It is part of a bigger picture. When money and ego trump safety and students are just a dollar sign, then maybe it is time to reevaluate what is happening.

Pro-SRBA, anti-SRBA...whatever. My point is that we should take the lesson and turn it into something productive.

Matt, you were part of organizing a very safe and well-run boogie in AZ in February. I went there expecting to see the usual BASE jumper nonsense and was (massively) pleasantly surprised at the organization and safe jumping that was going down. Kudos to you for that, you really deserve it. And kudos to all the attending jumpers. A safe event requires EVERYONE to make good choices. That's exactly what I saw in AZ.

That said, is there anything you and/or Apex can do/say that will help guide a successful event in October?

I'm not trying to assign you a job here, but you've done this in the past. And done it well. Any guidance is appreciated by all parties involved I'm sure.

With out trying to interfere to this incident.... these are 2 separate things... Twin Falls see lots of beginner jumpers ( as well as more experienced ) as AZ Boogie was more about experienced jumpers !! And those there little less experienced was taken care of by those who had the experience.
Yet again Matt did great job there

I always knew this day was coming. :( I knew Jim for a while, back when Elsinore was my home dz. We did our first wingsuit rodeo together, which turned into a massive death spiral. And when I heard of his injury at his base fjc, I suspected that perhaps he was pushing the envelope of his own capabilities.

He has always been fearless and eager to try new stuff in the sport, which I admired and feared for, since most of the other guys his age at the dz were very different having been in the sport a lot longer and seen more shit go down.

I miss Jim. I was looking forward to seeing him and jumping with him again. But I always said to close friends (and they can verify this), that one day he would die in the sport. I'm fucking sad about this and I'm sad because it should never have happened in the first place.

BSBD Jim.

I logged-in read this thread earlier today on this incident for 1st time . Then I went back to the shop and worked for a the rest of the day to digest what I read .
Setting your canopy on Fire and then jumping ??? . I remember back in the day when going Stowed, slider-Up on Twin bridge was pushing the envelope . Fuck Me, now I got to set my self on fire to keep up with the Joneses .
.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=595_1431920323

Wow, nice first post champ

No kidding.

What were you thinking, altrisk?

You can't give Dadsy Wadsy his death porn fix if you don't include the moment of impact.

44

Now that is a fucking nugget!

Shit jim, i woke up today heard about Dean,,, then found out about Sean....


ive pretty much not really been on the internet or any bASE forum s news things etc for awhile and then i read what you did WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Waht fuckking BALLS man... i remember talking to you at Elsinore impressed that you BASE jumped period at your age........and You wishing you were able hike up a certain mountain and wingsuit it with me... you didn't know it but you really inspired me multiple times since all those times we used to talk.. it's been a few years since i've talked to you..........
i would get depressed often since my accident and often i would think of YOU- and YOU made me realize that i could jump again.. AT ANY AGE.......and to just Do what i could do....

And all the "normal" people that would tell me "hey your in your 40's what do you need to do this for, it's for the YOUNG" and i'd say "Fuck You, there's this guy at Elsinore he skydives and BASE jumps" ! meet him he's for real........

Jim BSBD you REALLY inspire me and YOU ALWAYS WILL!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry I did not know it was unacceptable.

http://m.magicvalley.com/...ml?mobile_touch=true

shit people, is this where we really want to go? We should unified in pushing against the possibility of charges against someone who helped with a jump.

So someone helps another jumper light their canopy on fire, they die, and some overzealous prosecutor presses charges for manslaughter or some other bullshit. So what happens if maybe you help someone flake their canopy for their first TARD and they fuck it up, or maybe you take a new jumper to an exit and they get hurt or die? Or maybe you just tell someone about an exit? Are you responsible, are you culpable? It's a slippery slope, and one we don't want to go down. One successful prosecution and many places might decide it's a convenient way to stop pesky jumpers, if someone gets hurt: just prosecute everyone involved. Imagine if the ground crew gets charged as accessories in a death?

If you don't think that can happen, look at some of the law around heroin-related deaths... help procure heroin for someone who dies from it, and you go to prison.

The incident reports help everyone else learn, and if people are afraid to honestly report what happened, then others are doomed to make the same mistake. How many people do you think recently stopped using floating pins because of the recent report? I'd be willing to bet at least 1 or 2, which could be one or two fewer fatalities over the next couple years.

The line of has been drawn and we should stick to it. You jump, your life is your responsibility, no one else's. Doesn't matter if your mentor or your mother promised it's 100% safe, doesn't matter if they told you to tie your bridle in a knot, "don't worry man gainers are super easy..." it is your choice in the end. If you don't have enough knowledge, experience, or confidence to make those decisions on your own, then either you assume the risk from making your own choices with what information you do have, or you don't jump. That simple.

The main issue to me is the lack of transparency and actions (or lack thereof) of the stunt crew following Jim's impact. As someone in EMS I find it deplorable they did not immediately call 911. I welcome an investigation.

Base587, it sounds like your understanding of the events that took place in regards to this incident are based on rumors, speculation and mistruths which are being propagated and fed to the media and authorities by jumpers who were not present and have no first hand knowledge of the incident.
I suggest you seek information from somebody who was actually there and knows the facts.

Does it now? How about an eye witness to the event who was also involved in the rescue. Got any more suggestions for me?

Savage burn!

I agree though, the problem the cops have is not that Tom lit a dudes canopy on fire. It's that there were enough glaring errors and omissions in the report that the head honcho received that he feels this needs further investigation.

I will never forgive anyone who's words here are used in the litigation or procicution of another jumper. Contributing to putting one of our own in that position is as low as you can get. I don't give a fuck wether he's the scum of the earth in your mind he is one of ours and we deal with our shit in house. Christ all mighty, I have guys I don't like in the sport and do you know what I fucking do to them??? Not jump with them. I don't fucking suggest frivolous but damning litigation on a public forum. Fuck ethics as a base jumper, what about ethics as a man, that's some coward ass shit. I hope I never have to jump anything with any of you where everthing isn't by some imaginary text book, God knows what legal troubles I may have if you twist your ankle cause I let you jump my cowboy boots.

I'm fucking sad.

wasnt the jump around 530pm and media reported deputies being called at 5:34pm

+++1 Alan

I'm not an active jumper. So I refrain from giving advice on jumping. But I do have some legal experience. My advice- lock the thread, remove it, whatever. Make them subpoena the info if they don't have it already. I've been reading the reports and posts in horror...for more than one reason. I knew Jim. It sucks bad, but I don't want to see others go to jail. I've fucked up in this sport badly, paid a serious price, and maybe could've blamed others. But this is BASE. I wasn't pushed off the exit. It was my choice, my fault. Period.

Disseminate incident reports on fatalities where others are actively involved in the jump (not merely pointing the way to an exit or giving rigging advice the day before, etc.) very very cautiously. As a former jumper, I fully appreciate the importance of learning from incidents. But as a lawyer, I'd never let a client draft a report if they were actively involved.

Ethics and morals have gone down the drain when everyone felt it was cool to let skydivers jump with <200 skydives. There's a reason why you wont find anybody in Switzerland let you jump if you dont have anything in the 500-1000 skydives category. 1000 jumps is stil pretty much the consensus here.

Check this link

Some of the stuff you read on that website is like.. Fucking moronic! Owner of the Land? Sue the Fuck out of the NPS and let them have it with their aerial-delivery laws.

How far have we come? Dantana or whatever the name is, is absolutely right! Fuck that shit, i'm out, jumping solo - if i do my ass in, sue the fucking air for not delivering a puffy cloud to save my ass!

I don't want to take this statement out of context, so before I fully respond, could you clarify exactly what you mean by it?

Well, do you think it's a driving student right to take a formula one car out on the track? Guess what, neither do I!

There's a reason why the MAN Robi Pecnik himself wont teach anyone below the age of 28. Especially males are extremely stoopid until then, some are, including myself, still stoopid after that.

Take some ownership, man the FUCK up, grow a 'stache and a set of balls and dont be a PuSsIs BiG!

sheesh..

Turning Fabio's van over and run off like a coward little pussy, young guy, i kow because i picked him up, no shoes, two gearbags on his shoulder, drunk as FUCK from the night at the stripclub. Ozzy, think he's 22 or something. Landing on roads in LB? Only a moron would do that. Not sure of his age, pretty goddamn sure he was a yank, a swiss would never do that. You wanna know why? Because it's our fucking backyard and not yours you're shitting in. Fuck you, FUCK 'MURICA! Go big or go the FUCK home, right? You do your little trip here, once in a lifetime because you're actually poor as fuck and frustrated as FUCK because you live in a 3rd world country, hence you go out and FUCK everyone else the FUCK over!

Good going sir, good going!

You better wait for the day where the rules in LB are actually enforced. Let me test you, out of your memory, and i'm sure you SHOULD know since you've either been here, or are planning to: what are the fucking rules in place in LB to be completely legal here to jump!?

Whoa. So, that was a hell of a lot more than I expected and a shitstorm of stories.

What I took from your original post was that training people to BASE at sub-200 skydives has a great potential to lead to problems. And if that was your point, I couldn't agree more. I just wanted to make certain that's what you were saying. For the record, yes, I think it's a problem here, in some schools and individuals more than others.

And before you ask, yes, someone is a little frustrated here, and sick and tired from having to watch the carnage unfold at HU, there's a reason why you wont find any locals in LB during "Silly-Season" as the people living there call it. We go jump when there's waist-deep snow, like REAL man do, dragging our massive, hairy ballsacks through the snow, that's why the trails look like a fucking "interstate" in summer. That's an AUTOBAHN if you didnt know, but hey, you'd have be a at least a little interested in a place you visit to know THAT.

Nope, better fuck up the relations with the people of Lauterbrunnen that some camping sites do not accept BASEjumpers anymore. WOW, how far have we come?

The dude that went in on the paragliding meadow? yea, no landing on there, no flying over the power-lines with enough clearance. I'm sure he got spectacular video though! Wanna know something else? the REAL cool people fly over the road and almost make it back, well, not really, but they have enough clearance to do a 180 and swoop the canopy right back.

There, that's for that. Now go on and flame the fuck out of me, because that's all you do. I havent even properly started and i'm already SICK and the FUCK TIRED of the people in it.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE! THESE MAN ARE THE PRIDE OF OUR NATION!

guess what, the rest of the world doesnt give a flying shit about you..

I like you

Write more

Keep those gopros rolling for "The Great Horner Massacre"

Man, that reminds me of some of the great times we used to have in Lauterbrunnen. The time when a bunch of us jumped Staubbach naked and landed in the cemetery during that memorial service.... the look on their faces.....priceless. That's the trouble with you Swiss: no sense of humour.

Solid.

That one actually made me laugh.. Now i wanna watch footage to it!

Reminds me of my 2nd time jumping in LB, we do Gimmelwald, my buddy is driving a little sporty onto the barrier, we hit it and take it with us.

Me, dumb ass stoopid Swiss FUCK, grab my sweaty, hairy ballsack and get to the counter and say: "i'm sorry we just took the barrier with us, we tried to put it back on, but i suppose you need a screwdriver for that!"

The lady's response really left me startled "Thanks for telling us, although we hope you didnt have your cameras rolling!" i'm like WTF have i just heard, trying to process the information "Uhm, nope, no cameras..?"

Apparently some dumb FUCK damaged foreign property on purpose, filmed it, then put it on YouDUMB for the world to see, and the little cashier at the damaged facility fucking KNEW about it! Again, WOW, how fucking FAR have WE (???) come?

Seriously you dumb FUCKS, send us your money, we'll use it to jump and get good video for you to see what fucking NORMAL jumpers do! Just stay the FUCK away from THE MOST AMAZING PLACE for BASEjumping. And this one's for Robi, you can always send us your gold teeth too instead of money!

So, i think i'm done here!

Send me a PM, i'll send you my name and adress, you're welcome to stay over, get fucked up and have a good time! Just so you know, you're NOT going to try to fuck this guy in the ass, this dude here has watched himself fucking DIE from a birds view, and he DONT. GIVE. A. SHIT!

1.) What's your source on this? Because your post is the only place I've seen times, but I've heard something quite different.

2.) Four minutes between jump and 911 call? Impact without a flaming canopy over your head is what, 5.3 seconds?

Journalistic inaccuracy aside, why wouldn't the call have been immediate?

Give it up asshole

EDITED: Or just keep beating the dead jumper- uhhi mean horse.

HideHeid Chome plugin is pretty nice.. I just click the 'X' next to colsco and no longer see his whining...

It's a pretty simple question.

The cover up with the police, the media, and to other BASE jumpers especially is inexcusable from someone who's slagged other jumpers for far less for over a decade and consistently works to position himself as an authority in BASE. It's about the greatest form of hypocrisy I've seen.

Fucking hell, how many articles has he weighed in on recently while not even being present, let alone involved in the least bit? But the one in which he was involved has been fraught with misinformation from the get-go.

Again, it's a simple question.

A few years ago I watched in horror as my friend fell to his death. Split his noggin open. Bled out. The paramedics wouldn't even go down the walking path to tend to him. I was pissed off at them. But now, i understand that it wouldn't have made any difference how fast they got there.

Dead is dead. This ain't anyones first rodeo. They knew he was dead.
Who cares?

The around 5:30PM figure comes from Tom's incident report, which I can imagine isn't a good enough source for you, but you are welcome to provide other evidence.

You can find the 5:34PM figure here.

http://magicvalley.com/...86-fac8cc50a46a.html


So the time that Tom gave was around 5:30PM. First off, that's not exact, which means the call could have been made immediately, for all you know. Second, it seems like you're suggesting there was intentional delay in informing emergency services. What evidence do you have to suggest this, because so far your rumors haven't had a lot of that.

KMVT reports the jump "around" 5:30 Magicvalley reports call to deputies at 5:34 certainly doesnt reek of being delayed

The 911 call would have been logged, so I'll put faith in that time (5:34) being accurate.

The media reports what they don't know for certain (because they weren't there) based on reports of the people who were. Given the initial police report's lack of details, I'd say it casts doubt on everything those who were there might have offered up as "fact".

Correct me if I'm wrong but your posts sound like you are trying to imply that the people trying to save the jumper's life immediately went into "coverup" mode. If that's the case, on behalf of everyone who has been in the chaotic situation of trying to save a jumper's life onsite after a serious accident, fuck you.

If not, just say what's on your mind and why you are so deeply focused on the time of the accident vs. the time of the 911 call. And don't bother with any line of BS like, "I'm trying to get to the truth!". If you want truth, start by posting some.

Here's some truth for you. At the site of any kind of serious accident or fatality, if there is more than a handful of people around it's really easy to assume someone has already called for help and that instead of making a redundant 911 call, you can use those precious seconds doing something that you hope will make a difference. My guess is that virtually always in a situation like that, everyone involved is doing the best they can. Sometimes their split second decisions don't seem very good in hindsight. Sometimes, even if they do everything right, it still isn't good enough.

If you have a lot of experience in these scenarios, say so. Take the time to share what you know--it may save a life and you will have my thanks along with a sincere apology for misreading your posts.

On the other hand, if you have never been in the situation or you have and shit went wrong because of a delay in someone calling 911, say so. I cannot help but sense bias in your posts so please come out and say what that bias is.

Or, just shut the fuck up.

Walt

I think it's been pretty obvious that my bias is directed at one particular individual. No reason for me to deny that. Despite Tom's reports of not being involved on the one hand, he's clearly tried to show a lot of control over the situation on the other. And I'm not the only person who's asked. Just read up-board.

If you look at the situation on the whole, I think his involvement in every level is suspicious.

Before any of you jump to jump to the conclusion that I want anyone charged in this, stop. That's for the authorities to decide and even I'm not sure it fits and I think it opens a whole can of worms we don't need. I wouldn't advocate for it.

But I would like to see a little fucking accountability instead of the careful little manipulation of details and behind the scenes bullshit by one of the most hypocritical "jumpers" ever. I'm just doling out a small dash of what he's done (for at least the 11 years I've been jumping) to jumpers whose supposed transgressions don't come close to measuring up to this incident. You asked. There's the reason for my bias.

And yes. For the record, I have been on scene in some serious shit and the "fog of war" you suggest in this case of assuming someone has called 911 doesn't quite play. He lit a fucking canopy on fucking fire. This wasn't a BASE jump, it was a stunt. And the deceased didn't pound in in a "do you think he broke something?" kind of accident.

Yes - it is obvious.

Nobody is above criticism and we all make mistakes. It's fair enough to discuss them.
But it is pretty clear that you just have a personal issue here - you're down to semantic arguments and the preferred use of letterheads.

The worst part is I was really enjoying the angry Swiss guy's posts.

There are SKY jumpers and a couple BASE jumpers
who I really do NOT like at all, some of these people
have wronged me and/or stolen from me . . . BUT I
still would not want any of them to bounce or get
charges for any parachuting related incident, because
I love parachuting more than I dislike those assholes.

I get that you have a beef with Tom Aiello. I do see
kinda what you mean about the hypocrisy of do not
jump from the rail but fire stunts are okay, I get it.

However, if the daughter of the deceased and the
real life friends of the deceased are not calling for
Tom Aiello's head on a stick or his ass in jail then
why would you be so willing to hurt parachuting
like this just to get revenge?

I don't see suspicious. I just see stupid.

Then what is it you are trying to achieve here?
No one is listening to you. I agree with some of the things you have said but you won't change anything. Newbies will still flock to Tom's course and sing him praise, let them. Give it up.

Thankyou for spelling it out clearly. We can agree to disagree on the fog of war/911 call timing issue.

I have never met Tom. I have e-mailed back and forth with him a few times but we don't really know each other. My impression, based on my limited contact and what I have heard from friends who have spent time with him is that he's a decent guy and that gives me a strong bias toward giving him the benefit of the doubt.

If you have personal knowledge that leads you to a different bias, I can understand that but I don't have that experience so I don't share your strong suspicion of manipulation or deceit.

As far as the accountability issue, I see what you are saying and respect it but I share the view that anyone choosing to do a BASE jump or parachute-related stunt (yes, it was clearly a *stunt*) needs to make their own decisions and accept the consequences.

Having said that, I think there are exceptions but the only ones I can think of would getting someone to do something highly likely to end badly by using force or coercion.

I'll take Tom at his word that he thought the jumper could pull it off.

I used to jump with a guy who had done 4 intentional cutaways from under 300 ft. using a modified skydiving rig that required him to pull the cutaway handle, then pull the reserve handle--no assisted reserve deployment mechanism. He had a peculiar talent for talking about what seemed to me to be some truly crazy stuff and make it sound like it was a completely sensible thing to do. Reading Tom's posts, I got the impression that his friend had the same talent. The reason I mention it is that to me it seems plausible that the guy convinced Tom that it was doable. Do you really think Tom or anyone else in the sport is depraved enough to be involved with a stunt that they knew would almost certainly end in a fatality? You can argue that Tom should have known better but I don't think his involvement sinks to the level of being responsible for the fatality.

By all accounts the jumper was self-motivated to do the stunt. I have heard no mention of anyone pressuring him to do it, nor any mention of anyone telling him it was a brilliant idea. It seems safe to say that he could have backed out at any time.

In hindsight, I think it's safe to say there was no shortage of poor judgement and overenthusiasm involved, but I think it's a real stretch for anyone to view it as some sort of criminal negligence on the part of anyone who assisted him.

My heart goes out to all who are feeling pain or anger from the fatality.

Thanks again for explaining your views. I believe it adds value to the discussion.

Walt

You allege a "cover up with the police." You don't have to be Matlock to know that that's a crime. So if anyone actually took you seriously, a well known figure in BASE, at one of the most public sites in BASE, would be charged criminally. Even if that isn't your intended end game, that's what will happen if serious people read your posts seriously. And that would be good for BASE how? You're burning everyone's canopies to pursue a personal vendetta under the guise of "accountability." I'm sure that watching a good friend die is a stout enough accountability lesson for Tom.

Now I sincerely hope the swiss guy will hijack this thread again...

Euphemism of the year. Every living creature now knows your stance. It's like a broken record at this point. Start a haterblog. Make t-shirts and wear them around. Mail out pamphlets or something. Shits getting old to read on here.

At this point every time you post you simply make Tom look better.

You are acting like an idiot and your personal vendetta is clouding your judgement.

Like I said before, give it up. You'll be a happier person. I guarantee it.

+1

Very well stated.

Do you think Jesus would prefer to ride in a side car or on the motorcycle itself if given the choice?

If he chose to ride in the side car which superhero do you think he would prefer to have ride shotgun?

And would Jesus need a helmet?

And if little arschloch without der hoden to ID his self hide behind great German scientist name, would that make him a muschi?

And would he need tamponierens?

colsco may be arschloch to but at least ID his self and stand on what he say!

This is not aimed at anyone in particular and it is not specific to this incident so moderators, if you see fit to move it, so be it.

In skydiving, if you see a friend getting ready to do something idiotic and nobody else seems to be standing in his way, you can stop him, or at least *postpone* his idiocy, by jerking his reserve handle. Yes, it has real potential for souring a friendship and it's very rarely done, but at least the option exists. I have never done it, but I can think of at least one time when the only thing that stopped me was the jumper changing their mind and scratching off the load. I was mentoring that jumper and in doing so, took that responsibility seriously.

I know of one jumper who did pull a friend's reserve. I don't remember exactly what the friend was about to do, but I vaguely recall it had something to do with jumping with a beer keg. The jumper who pulled his friend's reserve was not someone who I had thought of as a shining example of common sense or a safety nazi by any means, but when I heard about what he did, my respect for him went way up.

I don't recall of ever hearing of that kind of thing being done in BASE. Strong words before the jump, yes. Strong words after the close call, yes. Disabling gear, no.

Let's say a friend approaches you to help him do a truly moronic stunt or a jump that you know to be well beyond their experience level. I have no doubt that the majority of jumpers would strongly advise the friend against it and many would refuse to help. How many would go further than that?

One time 460 and I were at Bridge Day and I took a hard landing on the rocky sloped landing area. Nothing broken but I was using a cane for a couple of weeks. I had joking told 460 that I was still glad I didn't land in the water because the body heals but gear doesn't.

460 and I had been friends for years even back then. His response was very matter of fact. "If I ever see you do anything like that again I am going to take your gear and toss it in the water". 460 and I joke around a lot. Serious conversations are extremely rare for us to have. But this time, he was not joking. He wasn't being shitty about it, but he got his point across. I thought about that for a long time afterward. It takes a true friend to do something like that. Sometimes being a friend means being an asshole.

I am posting this as food for thought, not as a suggestion of what Tom or anyone else should have done, but you might be faced with a similar situation some day. What would you do?

Walt

I wish I had a thumbs up, or like button on this forum.

Some will stand up and get in the way of someone doing something tragic, last spring I confiscated a distraught jumpers gear and hid it at my house, I got cussed at screamed at and threatened by her, she called every mutual friend we had to try and convince me to give it back, I didn't cave, she eventually snuck into my stuff to find a document with my address hitch hike to my house and re-acquired the gear, and after doing so handed it off to a mutual friend realizing that while she was pissed at me for taking the action I did she needed to do some thinking. Got to participate in her wedding this year and I consider her and her husband two rad and uplifting people. Some times you have to be an asshole to you friends if you really care about them, but I'd rather be an asshole for a week than lose em for good.

this is a downer if its true for the WTC jumpers

http://m.nydailynews.com/...rs-article-1.2247272

What about the jumper at the potato who jumped with an active chainsaw?

Someone helped PCA him while he fired that thing up and severed his lines on opening.

Maybe someone will post that video.

Would be a very interesting topic for a "friend, asshole, or both?" poll.

i think you may be speaking of eldon. i did not have a chance to meet him, but i heard he was pretty gnarly. he got hung up on our local terminal wall because he jammed his PC inbetween two rocks, and it actually didnt clear on opening. or so they say.........

Edited, because I have it on good authority that colsco is not the culprit. Therefore, this is directed to the sniveling cowards who wrote the anonymous letter, whoever they might be:

Apparently you failed. Perhaps you should stop now.

But for the record: Seriously? WTF is wrong with you?

Has everyone forgotten about personal responsibility? If I want a cigarette, and you give me a light, you're not the cause of my death from cancer. It's all on me.

Just as this is not on Tom. This is not about the duty of a mentor to a student. It's not even about the sometimes stupid favors we do for our friends. It's about a man who desperately wanted to do something he should have had the good judgment to forego. And even an idiot should realize that if Tom hadn't lit the match, Jim would have persisted until he found someone who would.

I've no doubt about the depth of the guilt Tom feels, but this is neither his responsibility nor his mistake, so as much as everyone else needs to give him a break, he needs to give himself a break too.

Sheriff: Felony Charges Unlikely in BASE Jump Death

The sheriff's office will not recommend felony charges in a fiery stunt that killed a 73-year-old BASE jumper last month.

"I don't think anyone is going to say that someone did something intentionally to cause the death," Twin Falls County Sheriff Tom Carter said Thursday.

[..]

Several weeks later, Carter received an anonymous letter, apparently written by members of the BASE-jumping community, insisting Aiello be charged in Hickey's death.

Aiello "should be charged at least with reckless endangerment..." said the letter, which also was posted on Craigslist and sent to the Times-News.

[..]

rl

One of, if not my most fond memory from base jumping was me and my student jumping a fed building where in less than a second shit went from harmless fun to serious shit in 2 seconds flat.

unfortunately our ground crew was less than intelligent in the sense of keeping a low profile. Lights on, engine reved, and screeching to a halt across 3 parking spots directly in front of the motor pool security guard in front of the building. I'll never forget landing and seeing the rental cop standing on his canopy 20 feet away from me. in the calmest manner i could while stashing my rig i asked him what to do. he looked at me, looked at his cop in tow, looked back at me and told me to "have one for him" and walked back towards the cop.

At the time i was holding all the necessary tools to break into a fed building, enough pain drugs from my last spine injury jumping to knock 10 camels dicks in the dirt, and 7 warrants in the state. At any given moment he could have just said my name and walked away with the graces of any local PD.

He didn't. He put his shit on the line. He is my best friend, he is my mentor as much as I am his. I don't care if he called me to burry a body or drink a beer i would be there for him without question.

Where did that go?

I don't know exactly where it went, but those who know me know that nowadays i jump mostly alone or with those close to me, and this shit is a big part of the reason why. I don't just see it as admirable to be loyal, but requisite.

Maybe it is just childhood schoolhood ethics, but the lowest you can get in my book is a snitch. I will always cherish those i trust and pity those who are not capable of that strongeness of heart to not act like a bitch for the sake of their personal gain or vendetta, because they inherently never trust another to do the same for them... and nor should they, because those who pull these underhanded moves against our brothers will always have to worry about people like me finding out who the fuck they are.

Quite a paradox - enough balls to jump off a high object but not enough to sign a letter.

And plus one to that my friend.

What to snitch? Cops knew who did what.

Someone just express opinion. US not free speech any more if you disagree?

Funny how to call out anon letter guy as coward but tolerate anon cowards on this forum.

Free speech is among our greatest gifts, but it is also much abused. Self-restraint is highly underrated. Just because one has a right does not mean one must exercise it all the damn time. Other principles also apply.


Here you go...

I have never posted anonymously in any forum anywhere because I believe we have a responsibility to stand behind our words. The caveat is that in countries where the exercise of free speech is often punishable by death, anonymous speech is necessary and acceptable.

I've not noticed a death penalty for speaking out in this group under one's own identity*, so in my opinion, it is lily-livered, spineless, chicken-hearted, craven, timid, timorous, pusillanimous, weak-kneed, gutless, yellow-bellied, and wimpish to do so.

What was it Gerry used to say? Yeah, that.

Will that do for a call-out?

rl

*I have noticed that some people won't let sleeping dogs lie and others jump on every damn word, which results in an astonishing amount of in-fighting and bad blood. Avoidance of such might explain a miniscule percentage of anonymous posts, but most seem to be only for the purpose of stirring shit. Just like that letter to the sheriff. Not to put too fine a point on it, but some people would profit from a little anger management.

I (far more often than not) love local Sheriffs...

"I'm taking (the letter) as serious as I can, but I don't think the writer is aware of the laws of this state," Carter said. The stunt "was an incredibly stupid thing to do, but there was no criminal activity."





Secondly... and all else aside:

"Jim was getting frustrated. He didn't have enough hands to hang on to the rail, light the ball and drop it on the chute," he said."

So, Ah... Why wasn't one of those handy dandy platforms used?

Free speech is part of the foundation of America but when an individuals free speech turns into a ploy to speak for everyone then we have a problem. This open letter to Twin Falls is an attempt to fool the people of that community that the entire BASE community wants Toms head on a stick when in fact it seems like only a select few are behind this witch hunt. The letter ends with the line
This statement and the "we" that's used many times in the letter and in this forum does not represent a consensus among jumpers. It's use, in my opinion, is a cowardly act to garner support for a personal grudge that is controlling, defining and consuming them until they choose to let it go........

The Grudge - TooL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XukK146hu-o

Trans mutate these leaden grudges into gold

Is there a copy of the letter somewhere?

This is some seriously bad form folks.

We where doing a burning canopy cutaway in skydiving and with 5.000 Feet we where concern about having enough altitud.

Enough said here. Im out

I was able to read the letter and it's totally insane.

Just to add some color, he/she spends about 3 paragraphs comparing Tom Aiello to Tom Brady. You know...because that makes a ton of sense.

(For all you vagabond hippie BASE jumpers: Tom Brady is an NFL quarterback. NFL stands for "National Football League." Football is a popular American team sport.)

I would really like to know who wrote it. I am not willing to jump with someone who would write such a letter to the authorities. Man up, take ownership of your actions, and let me know who to avoid on the exit point.

Fire at the Bridge

For the sake of posterity, a PDF of the text is attached.

Quite a diarrhea written there. I think the best part is that it's anonymous. Way to own up! Seems very personal.

Allow me to add a personal perspective.

Since chemo, my brain has not worked properly, and my ability to compose sentences and paragraphs in a succinct and coherent way has...stuttered.

I've been in speech therapy for some time to overcome my issues with writing and speaking, and both have improved.

But even at the nadir of my brain injury, I would not have created prose on the level of this chaotic and insensate letter. I feel sorry for the writer, and I think he would benefit from full-time caretakers.

My advice to him would be that if one purports to speak for an entire group of people--which he didn't, but anyway--one should solicit the assistance of someone who understands the language in which the proclamation is to be made. To the best of my knowledge, Google still hasn't achieved the ability to translate gobbledy-gook.

   I'm drawing a blank as to which one of my BASE jumping friends actually gives two shits about Tom Brady and the NFL. Thinking its one of those arm chair BASE jumpers.
This "stunt" does make me think of how I try and approach new exits and BASE debauchery. Back in the day I talked Slambo into SLIP N sliding off the top of an antenna, I was all gun ho until we got up to the platform and then I pussied out. I would have been beyond sick had something happened to Kristian on that jump, as I was the one that came up with the idea.
So from then on a BIG rule of thumb for me is I DONT PARTICIPATE or aid my friends to do a jump that I wouldn't do myself. I try to put myself in their shoes at their skill level and THINK is this a good idea? If I don't think it's a good idea (which is rarely the case) I let my feelings be known. That's what a friend is supposed to do right? As we should learn from mistakes, hopefully this incident will help us be a lot more cautious next time one of our friends gets a wild hair up their ass to push the envelope.

Something smells rotten in Denmark...or TF. That is one fishy letter. And the fact that it was squirreled away in Craigslist rants and raves amongst the ranting about; not enough cheap hookers, shoddy pothole repairs, various religious BS and complaints about infidelity. But someone knew it was there. And now it's out. Maybe it was Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. I'm pretty sure they both know Tom Brady.

Please refer to my post further up - morals and ethics have gone down the fucking DRAIN!

Thanks for the flowers pretty white boy, you wanna be my bitch!?

Last year and the one before, i was pretty actively jumping. The insanity i've witnessed, is pretty fucking.. Dude, i dont even have WORDS for it!!!

I've met some pretty awesome people, positive, high energy, you name it. Even some smart and quiet ones! While I'm pretty much a loud mouth myself, but hey, that's me, i just like to crack jokes and be silly. Those are the people i REALLY like jumping with.

But then there's the others.. They have bad karma written just all over them. I dont want them here. Actually I dont want them anywhere. I dont even want them jumping at all! What these people do, is fucking up relations to the locals (as in people actually living there, not necessarily jumpers), make the lives of the local jumpers harder and.. HOW. THE. FUCK could they even buy a rig!? WHICH. FUCKING. ASSHOLE. showed them how to pack and properly use it!? If you teach someone, you better make darn sure your student is not an asshat!

And the saddest thing is WHY they do it! 15 seconds of fame? Because that's probably how long they last when they hit up a chick stoopid enough to fall for the "I'm an extreme sports athlete"-line at their local bar. Yea, totally woth it for the years of "maintaining good relations with the locals", seting up stuff, organizing, you know, actually DOING something.

Fuck all of you assholes, i'm over and done with this crap, if I catch you doing shit like that, I wont take your rig, i'll get out my knife and fucking CUT your shoulder-straps, and if you DARE to complain, i'll fucking cut your throat next and burry you somewhere deep in the woods. And you better believe i fucking mean it. You dont mess with angry Swiss guy!

What a fucking coward. You want to hold someone accountable but hide your yellow belly under a sweater of bullshit and post your letter on craiglist like a whore looking for a trick. Tom's participation in the event should in no way be construed as reckless endangerment, or manslaughter. If charges are brought against Tom it would be the start of the end of BASE jumping in Twin. If at anytime persons are in the water below the bridge, walking the path, or if jumpers are in the landing area the jumper going off could be guilty of reckless endangerment. Or the distracted motorist issue could be brought up. The fact is BASE is fucking dangerous. We take risk everytime we step off that bridge. Jim knew it, Tom knew it, everyone knows that once you make that decision to step off it is you own. Tom didn't talk Jim into doing this, Jim would have done this stunt regardless. Jim knew his parachute would be in flames and his only chance would be the one not in flames. Tom didn't stop Jim from extracting his other parachute, Jim did. You think you are doing BASE some sort of justice and your bias towards Tom is doing nothing but hurting BASE jumpers whom you state as we. You compromise the very bridge you say you are trying to protect access to. Unless you put your damn names on the letter we don't know who the hell you are, and you def don't speak for WE, BASE jumpers. If you are a BASE jumper you should be ashamed of yourself and hang your head. You Sir, are an imbecile.

You must be one of those internet badasses. Dude, good luck finding deep woods near twin, or perhaps you are thinking of the grove of trees under the bridge? I don't care who it is, or what they've done, if you pull a knife on someone while I am around I got a little something something for ya. I know you are probably just getting a little carried away but that shit isn't that funny. I suggest working on some new material.

Pretty sure Angry Swiss Guy isn't jumping in TF. Seems to have a particular fondness for the jumps in LB and dragging his oversized testicles through deep snow drifts. But good job calling his bluff.

Come here, find me, find out!

I have nothing to loose anymore.

Or, you know, just be smart, "Do the right thing". What else do i read? People not buying landing cards in LB anymore? Wow. just fucking WOW!

I will eventually! Nothing too loose, good I like it nice and tight. I thought you were talking about twin since the name of the thread and its relavance. Your turf your rules, continue.

I don't see it as negative as you do. I'm sure people are willing to buy the landing card. Some forget it or don't know it. That is why I put a reminder on this page. I'm sure if the word is spread, people will buy the landing card.
Most basejumpers are good people.
I think you need to relax a bit...

Not so convinced anymore. I gave a few examples further up. I rather like to go solo anyway.. It sure is nice to have company like "the usual suspects", but going alone.. It sure adds more "adventure".

I know you don't believe that. After all these years there is no conceivable way that they could not know about landing cards. More likely they just don't give a shit. Just like they still don't care about walking in the tall grass.
I've always said it, BASE jumpers are their own worst enemy. Too many people in it for themselves and fuck everyone else as long as I am rad.
This incident is full of them. I'm jumping a flaming parachute and fuck everyone else. I'll help him because it's his choice to be stupid and fuck everyone else. I'll write to the cops because I want to and fuck the precedent it sets for everyone else. And Tree that cunt, for once there was some sort of cohesiveness in the community and along comes Tree and says fuck everyone else I'll run BD even though the majority was supporting a boycott.
BASE is doomed by the egos that prevent any real unity. Sure you have small clusters looking out for each other or for their local objects. But by and large there is an overwhelming self serving attitude that says this is BASE and it's my choice to do whatever the fuck I want and fuck everyone else.

^^THIS

Sadly.

Smoke a Blunt BASE 1817

I went to boarding school at age 7 years which was not an altogether pleasant experience. However there were two rules: Don't get caught and "Thou shalt not snitch."
Time to close ranks in this very small community. Enough has been said.
Tom your a cunt, do the maths next time. You still have my respect as one of the worlds authorities on base, just climb down a notch.
How about we close this thread.

 
Miles Daisher,

Nice letter, you truly are a cunt.

Cunt.

Don't be a douche BJ

Ask him if he wrote it

Thread Over! That's a wrap.

+1

This isn't that difficult of an accident to understand. I would call 486 feet a low object. He intentionally made it much lower by forcing himself to expend about 200 feet of it in his "trick." I think that it was only a matter of time until this would happen: intentionally making a jump far more risky, and much of BASE jumping is about minimizing risk.

Getting back to the actual accident, someone said that he had done 10 cutaway jumps from this object before. If he had just stepped back and looked at it, he should have foreseen the eventual accident. The idea that he wanted to do this trick on all four objects shows his illogical approach to risk management. We have all played this game. Perhaps not to this extent, but doing an aerial off of a 300 foot antenna killed one guy a few years back.

The idea that it worked before, and will therefore work again is an error in formal logic, playing with the statistics of small numbers.

Carl Sagan wrote this:

statistics of small numbers — a close relative of observational selection (e.g., “They say 1 out of every 5 people is Chinese. How is this possible? I know hundreds of people, and none of them is Chinese. Yours truly.” Or: “I’ve thrown three sevens in a row. Tonight I can’t lose.”)

Observational selection is a broader example of mistakes, one that most people do as a matter of course.

Again, here is what Sagan said about observational selection, or what we call cherry picking data:

observational selection, also called the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses (e.g., A state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent on its serial killers)

I will say this. Getting whacked can cause consequences beyond just one person dying. The best way to burn an object is for somebody to get whacked. I've seen it happen.

Sounds like observational selection to me!

made worse by the statistics of small numbers

So true. For all that people have posted in support of this gentleman's level of experience, it appears that he came to the sport both late in life and late in the evolution of the sport and he seems to have had a distorted view of the risks, perhaps because it would seem his vision of the BASE environment was largely the world of the Perrine and in particular putting his trust in one Mentor, ( nothing personal, perhaps there is nobody better when you're limited to this one particular object? ). None the less, this fatality is probably the most idiotic since the Finnish dude (BFL#5 ) jumped with a canopy frozen like an ice cube.

And since I am ranting and raving, and the season of carnage is upon us, I would like to say that the difference between hucking low objects slick, and Proxi flying Wingsuits is akin to riding tricycles and driving formula 1 race machines. Two completely different skill sets, one for infants and one for professionals, so when you think of yourself as a " BASE " jumper, try not to get confused about your level of skill.

Regards, B.

the NFL player ramble reminded me of this old chestnut on the "sad news from western Australia" thread. Do all you Americans waffle on about NFL players when discussing BASE fatalities? thats weird

 
the NFL player ramble reminded me of this old chestnut on the "sad news from western Australia" thread. Do all you Americans waffle on about NFL players when discussing BASE fatalities? thats weird
And that crazy Swiss guy's giant nuts dragging in the snow too... What's with everyone's obsession with men playing with balls?

I agree that jumping low objects and proxy flying are very different pursuits within the "sport" of BASE jumping. Saying that one is like kids on tricycles and one is for formula 1 riders sounds a bit goofy though.

I know, I get it. Wingsuit proxy is super rad and requires tons more skill, but the best of the best keep going in by the droves so where does all that skill really get you?

I just thought that was a rather broad observation made in a hasty sentence..

Very well put!

I think mountain flying is just so addictive, that self-deceit comes into play. It's always the random other guy who makes that pretty dumb and fatal mistake, and unlike them I know what I'm doing.

It's high season in Europe again, just hoping that the one's flying into mountains aren't my friends...

Kerkko
BASE1184

First I'd like to point out that their have been some other pretty silly fatalities. The guy that tried to jump the antenna in AZ with his sky diving rig, and didn't he have a bungee collapsible pilot chute? Or the little kid that tried to jump a bed sheet. I still count that one. And this at least was not completely with out precedent just very poorly thought out. They miss understood and miss applied the earlier examples thinking that the already flaming canopy would inflate when in fact it was just a melted ball. Personally I think it was doomed from conception.

As to wing suiting. I think it would be more accurate to say that it is a totally different skill set. I'm not sure I'm convened that it's a higher skill set.

And as to some of the people that have died, would it be more accurate to say that they died from lack of skill or from lack of judgement? I think those are separate questions and should be treated separately. It's a little tough on some of them but if you had to divide them in to two categories one where their actual skill set failed them and one in which they used bad judgement I wonder how the scales would balance. For example I think that when some one puts them them selves in a situation where their are no outs that that qualifies as a failure in judgement not skill. By that sort of standard I think it's much easier to understand how some of these very experienced people died. Some of them had a very high skill set but they placed them selves in unforgiving positions. I blame an error in judgement which is a subtle difference. You would think that it would develop along with skill but it can actually degrade with experience if you take the wrong lessens from what has happened.

Lee

Probably so? You know me Baby? We have both been around since before people were coming into this sport via media influence, ie. " I saw that shit on You tube and that's for me! "

We both know you can take a person who has never made a parachute jump in their lives, and huck them off the Perrine and they will probably survive, in fact,.. we both know it's been done,... successfully, no skill required. Now take that same person and put them in a wingsuit and throw them off a big wall, and I guarantee they are going in.... So my point is, that people become so complacent in that Perrine style environment that they forget the risks of the BASE environment and start throwing good judgement out the window ( chances are they never had it in the first place ). The next thing you know, with 50 or so slider down jumps under their belt they show up in the big wall areas of Europe, (the Swiss valley, Brento, etc. ) for their first Tracking suit, Wingsuit, jumps with the same lack of judgement and especially lack of the required skill set,... you get my gist?

A perfect example would be someone we both knew, BFL#220

You have been around long enough, ( God knows? 'Cos I sure don't know how!!!) to have a good sense of your own limitations, myself also,.. older and wiser.

I am just trying to stimulate the less experienced to think!!! The consequences of not doing so are fatal, as the nice, older gentleman who wanted to be noticed as a stuntman, proved...

Regards, B.

A good friend of mine went out to Lauterbrunnen with his mentor after 10 PCA jumps. It turned out he was a pretty good subterminal tracker even with zero experience. It's amazing what people can get away with, even in more demanding environments.

So, are you saying? 10 PCA jumps is the only prerequisite to go to the High Nose for your first Wingsuit jump with your brand new Aura 2 ? It is amazing what people can get a way with. But since I am a betting man, I'll put money on that dude going in. I think the odds are in my favor,..
haha! B.

It wasn't a wingsuit, it was regular slick track, but still the worst lack of preparation I've ever been privy too.

Occasionally you meet people with sub 100 skydives around, but that's the worst I've seen.

It all goes well until someone has a 180 and a brain mal.

People still do slick jumps in the valley !

That's so 1996

because of the gradient of the talus on both sides and both talus being totally different I would always opt on my tracking suit or wingsuit

seen plenty of LB jumpers in track suits that may as well have been slick.

ive seen at least one person in the valley with a wingsuit that couldnt even outfly me in a tracksuit ;)

+2 (more then +1).

Can I add that this "lack of judgement" could come from trying new stuff? As in the scenario that you have done a certain jump (PCA, SD, WS, aerial, whatever) several times and want to do it better, or faster, or just a bit different? After all, it gets boring having done it so many times. And then you pass the boundery of judgement, sometimes not even knowing that you pass it? I have seen it by myself.

That said, this is something different than the blatent and serious failure in judgement, which happens too.

Ronald