Basejumper.com - archive

The militarization of U.S. authorities continues unabated - the NPS has received a substantial windfall of military surplus, courtesy of the pentagon’s 1033 program:

http://www.outsideonline.com/...al-Park-Service.html

And who exactly do you think the NPS will be tracking with their shiny new “eight laser-infrared observation sets worth a total of $176,000”?

If you happen to find yourself in the vicinity of Grand Canyon National Park, watch our for ranger rick and his buddies sporting "20 military-style M-16 assault rifles and 70 rifle sights."

WTF.

'Murica!

Granted, these bastions of wild serenity aren’t crime-free. In 2012, a gunman murdered a ranger at Mount Rainer National Park before fleeing into the backcountry. The next year, there were 3,779 violent crimes within the national parks, according to data from the National Park Service. Eighty-two percent of those incidents were theft-related, but there were also 14 homicides, 36 rapes, seven kidnappings, 141 aggravated assaults, and 53 arson incidents. Attacks and threats against federal employees in parks, wildlife refuges, and marine sanctuaries increased 40 percent from 2011 to 2012, according to a Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility report released in June. Four NPS rangers have been murdered over the past 16 years.

And still they think BASE jumpers are such a major concern to public safety that they should be hunted down and prosecuted? I find it quite sad that they seem think it is more important to hunt down BASE jumpers than rapists and other real criminals. :/

+10

How many of those crimes were committed by NPS employees?

Didn't you know? They use these rifles to shoot away the foliage that grows over hiking trails.

And people wonder why Americans are such "gun nuts."

Even our trail guides are carrying rifles...you're damn right I'm going to own one too.

I dont need a gun for protection, there is no spoon. These nps cowards do though, in case they run into me BASE jumping. You stupid boyscouts pull a fucking gun on me you better use it before i beat you with it.

Well, for sure they didn't seem reluctant to use their Tasers against a BASEjumper so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine some trigger happy Tool shooting a fleeing jumper in the back and then their kangaroo court finding justification and vindicating him?

There are other well documented examples of the Yosemite NPS using Gestapo like methods to infringe on the rights of US and foreign visitors, so sending them military surplus just further transforms their image into aggressors instead of peaceful, helpful, facilitators of a pleasant National Park experience. Scary!

This is pretty much the story with all US law enforcement. Our constant "war against <fill in name of convenient target>" has created a militarized mindset throughout our government. There are people in their 30's who have literally spent their entire adult lives engaged in warfare, and are now leaving the military and taking "civilian" jobs in law enforcement, where they bring their military mindset (shaped by "policing insurgents") to policing their fellow citizens.

There are bad things about every country I've ever visited. This is one of the very bad things about the USA right now (and since the 1980's really).

I think it's about time that you visited New Zealand.

Seems to me that New Zealand plenty of its own baaaad things...





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I'd like to see what their training and qualification plan entails. The training and qualification in the army for non-combat roles is seriously lacking, and I highly doubt that they will be doing any more training that 6 month qualification rounds.

Furthermore, assault rifles are designed to kill people. I don't feel comfortable with NPS having the ability to take lives. While I agree with Tom's sentiment of the over-militarization of our police forces, the police should be responsible for the use of lethal force, not NPS.

 

NPS rangers are sworn law enforcement officers--which is basically the definition of "police" in a legal sense.

No offense, Robin, but given your and Ian's respective professional backgrounds, I'd defer to his knowledge about small arms and the US military.

 

Wait, so not only do you know everything about base jumping, but you also know everything about ballistics and assault rifles because you read that book? Whats the max effective range of an M4?

Only the dead can know peace from robins "knowledge".

That depends on who's shooting it.


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You sure about that?


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I hadn't realized how much they fulfill this role in the parks (just wiki'd). Thanks for the clarification. With this in mind, I still think police shouldn't have assault rifles.

The lack of adequate training and experience, along with the risks for collateral damage makes me feel uneasy about it.


This.

Unfortunately, I think in the hands of police, I'd rather have them carry a weapon with a max effective range 50m (M9 pistol) than 500m (M4 rifle). Think about how that mitigates the risk of stray rounds.

I've always been of the opinion that peacekeepers should be limited by the same firearms restrictions as the citizens they serve.

DEA, SWAT, etc...sure, they need something heavier. But I don't see the need for highway patrol or NPS to carry tactical rifles. If they get into something sticky, just fall back and call the appropriate response team (DEA, SWAT, etc.). After all, isn't that what they tell us to do as citizens?

I think we've crossed the line where "serve and protect" has evolved into "command and control."

I also think Tom's point about an entire generation of soldiers coming back into peacekeeping roles is interesting. I'd be curious to see some data behind it, but the hypothesis makes sense to me.

The training thing is truly the central concern, and not just the range training but the judgment training that is so critical in the police environment. As you may know, NYPD has infamously shot almost as many bystanders in the last year or two as they have bad guys; in one case alone, they hit 9 passersby trying to shoot one bad guy (I don't remember if they ever hit him or not).

And yes, in the best of all possible worlds, they'd carry Tasers and short-barreled shotguns loaded with something like #4 steel birdshot so when they miss the 6 or 7 out of 10 shots that the average cop misses, it's pretty harmless beyond 50 yards as long as it doesn't hit you in the face.

As it is, NPS rangers have long packed rifles in their vehicles (including AR/M-16/M4) and a lot of them are much higher-powered than the ARs (which barely stop people instantly without a CNS hit, much less a 1,000-pound pissed-off bear). At the very least, they're using the M24 or its civilian version, and .30-'06 or maybe even .300 WinMag in the bear-heavy units.

Ergo, this whole announcement is actually a lot of hoohah about something that has been and remains routine for NPS, unless they're getting MRAPs and such too (I'd like to see a bear try to tear into one of those to get the cookies on the dashboard). I also don't know if DoD renders them semi-auto only or leaves the burst function intact; if it's the latter, add another layer to the training conversation.


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I tend to disagree with this. While there could be problems with PTSD, or having a "kill the threat" mentality, soldiers have to deal with operating in questionable environments now more than ever. Mitigating the footprint in civilian life is regularly talked about in the context of operating in the middle east. Rules of engagement are more developed now than ever before. If anything, I believe veterans would have the best ability to make split second decisions and properly evaluate a gray area for use of force.

The conditions are different (Americans vs. foreigners), but the decisions being made are the same.

Concur. There are of course a few yayhoos who join various LEO orgs so they can keep shooting, and some unfortunate PTSD sufferers who aren't getting the help they need. But the fact is, there are so many US military guys who have in fact had to deal with a lot of gray areas in much more dangerous circumstances than 99 percent of all cops that, yes, most times they will make better fast-twitch lethal-force decisions than their less tested colleagues. It is unfortunate that so many people these days see all returning soldiers as somehow disabled and dangerous in some way when in reality they're the guys (and gals!) who you'd most like to have with you when the poop hits the propeller.


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stop1033.org

id be willing to get shot in exchange for a pass on the ridiculous fines for aerial delivery.

robinheid - question for you. Have you ever served in the army as an 11B, or in the military in any fasion?

If the answer is no, how can you converse with such knowledge of military training, and the mindset one is taught from day one in basic training?

My first parachute jump from an airplane was from a C-141A 4-engine jet transport. Draw your own conclusions.


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Since you find it necessary to correct my post, I will say you are full of shit. You still did not directly answer my question , but assuming you did serve, you are saying the first jump under a parachute was not one of the five jump chump jumps?

I look forward to seeing the logic equation associated with that.


You're lucky I responded at all. I thought you were a reasonable guy. I see that I was mistaken.


Affirmative.

And FYI, young hero, there are no chump jumps; you can die on every one.

But enough with trying to hijack the thread just to show us all your whining weasel cred:

NPS has also been using military-surplus night vision gear to catch jumpers for years. You see, the 1033 program may be a hot discussion topic now, but vis a vis federal agencies, this sort of hand-me-down process pre-dates the 1033 program -- by decades.


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Great stuff, Colm. Thx.


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Aaaaahhhhh. Another thread littered with your bullshit. And the usual fare as well. References to us being 'young' and you being the wise one, taking any chance to flaunt your perceived 'wisdom', as evidenced by your signature. How many jumps you got again???
Give it up mate. You're really starting to make the threads here hard to take seriously. Try Reddit. There are literally millions of targets for your brand of knowledge, from BASE jumping to skydiving, and even firearms and ballistics!!

I look forward to your long winded response.

Don't hold your breath.


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He was too busy writing nasty PM's to others, The Wise One has to set priorities!

Hahaha! So I wasn't the only one!

I just got another one. Looks like he's feeling lonely or something.

We should get him a group hug!

I just got a nice pm from him as well lol

I dont want to have too much trouble around here. Although, i hardly give a fuck, I like solojumping a lot anyway.

But I did ask him to either tone it down a notch or have the asshole-thing going. I can do either.

Have you seen his essay in the locked incident forum? Wow.

Yo, mozzie: You may want to brush up on your pattern recognition next time. Now repeat after me, slowly:

BigfcknG. Got. Punked.




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500 point
600 area m