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G'day all,

I did a search on here but nothing came up.

After seeing many off heading openings, 90's to 180's etc... What's the general "code of practise" to get out of these situations (Ie object strike etc...). From my skydiving practices and my mentors teachings, I've been going for rears and flying the openings with rears as (from my experiences) this keeps the whole canopy pressurised and can almost "reverse" the canopy to turn around with rears. But after reading comments here there and everywhere, toggles are suggested as the best thing to go for in these situations.?

My understanding of how a canopy works whilst flying is when you turn on rears, it keeps the canopy "fully" pressurised and does a shallower turn, loosing less altitude. When you do a toggle turn, especially a sharp one, it pushes the air out of the canopy so it has to "recover" before re pressurising back into full flight, in turn loosing more altitude and entering its natural recovery arc. I am sure a vented canopy would deal with these situations differently than a non vented skydiving canopy, so the reactions and behaviour of the canopy will differ in comparison. From skydiving, coming into land doing a hook turn on rears there seems to be no recovery arc as the wing in fully pressurised, when doing a toggle turn it needs to recover before going into full flight again for the flare. This is only from my experiences and it's probably wrong as fuck but I can only ask...

So the question is, what is the best practice for off heading openings, straight to toggles to (close to) stall point to try and reverse and turn away, or straight to rears risers to (close to) stall point to reverse and turn away?

What do you do in these situations?

Cheers

I think you're wrong to assume that turning on rears keeps the canopy fully inflated, especially more so than turning on toggles. I, for one, prefer to use rears to turn away from an object. But keeping the canopy fully inflated is not why I prefer that method. You sound like you have been skydiving for a bit, and so you probably understand the basics on how I canopy works if you would think about it a bit more. With that knowledge you should understand that pulling a riser will pull not only your brake lines, but also your C and D lines for that side of the canopy. Doing so will cause that side of the canopy to then stall on the side of the pull when moving at such a slow speed as in just after opening. Flying backwards away from the cell opening does not increase or help maintain pressurization in your canopy, right? Any hesitation when facing a solid object adds to the potential of an object strike. For example, if you go to toggles and miss a toggle you're still flying forward. If you go to toggles and one slips out of your hand you're now flying forward faster. Grabbing a riser eliminates a slight number of variables that could lead to a more dangerous situation while you are still learning. There are objects where stalling the canopy could make things worse, or maybe there is room to easily turn on toggles, but while you are learning you most likely aren't being taken to these objects. And if you are I would hope your mentors are explaining these variables to you before the jump.

These are my personal thoughts on what I do I wont explain these in full on bullshit terms..

On terminal objects where I have opened high I use rears..

on slider down or where I have opened low on objects I use toggles... But I try and use toggles more then rear risers...for example I have jumped off a 3000ft cliff tracked down to under sub 200 feet and pulled with a massive off heading away from my landing area , Bam onto the toggles and brought it around and lined up my landing area..

In this instance if I used rears on this slider up jump but opening under 200 feet I would of easily sunk out and either hit in rocks or in water or been in bigger trouble..

I don't have a issue grabbing Risers or toggles and forgetting the other, after a while you get a instinct on what is best for that situation But when you are starting out in your first 1-2 years or 0-200 jumps you should understand what situation you are putting yourself into .But the best way is to have the knowledge on the jump and what you are going to plan for that jump and what can arise from it..

When you go to Kjerag ? as that's where I think you should go to learn terminal walls and not northern Norway where you should have Experience in big walls..You should Give it a go and look at how much height you use when you practise reverse flying with ya rears... (I think you will be more then surprised at how much height you lose) when stalling ya with rears.

where as you use toggles and snap it around..

When you go to perrine I would highly suggest you contact a friend of mine Tom Aiello and book a object avoidance course ... 1 so you can learn from a experienced Base jumper who has knowledge on this area more then most people combined..
And
2.Because you will learn a heap more then what you already know or in other words Don't know

As I said personal preference as always...(That's base jumpin) some use vented canopies others don't its all up to what ya want...

Your mentor should be telling you a whole heap of information for your jumps in oz buddy... otherwise he aint a great mentor :)

here's a good read for ya:
http://johnnyutah.com/risersortoggles.html

and if u have the possibility to go to twin falls than book a full course with Tom Aiello, I know I wanna do the same whenever I'll return to the states one day. Ive heard only good things about his courses.

yildiz
cheers

It depends on the canopy, wing loading and brake setting. some canopies will fly negative with stowed brakes riser control at x amount of wingloading. Some will not. Fill out your profile as for gear or ask about the canopie(s) you jump.
Take care,
Space

from his other post
http://www.basejumper.com/...ost=2979310;#2979310
I don't think he's jumping his own gear yet. It looks like he's gonna get an OSP....I know I would. looks like is gonna be a 265 in size since he's around 80kg
to respond here to his other post(since both threads belong to him) my gear setup is a Helium(gargoyle) container(3rings fully articulated and I like that it stays really flat on my back and makes it easy to sneak between tight places) with a Troll DW 265 and 5 vents and took it to all kind of jumps low shit, subterminal tracking and terminal tracking. don't worry about wingsuit base yet. if you keep yourself on the rite track is gonna be a while before u gonna need that rig for wingsuit. by that time new shit might surface the market. I like my troll alot but I wanna change the game to much lower stuff and still be able to do terminal jumps so that OSP is what I am looking for rite now for a second rig(no light fabric, regular dacron line set and maybe no more 3rings so I don't need to check my rings anytime I pack and before every jump)

yildiz
cheers

not to be a dick, but pretty much everything you wrote about canopy behavior is incorrect.

but that's ok. the answer to your question is, there is no general practice, it's a preference, largely between to major schools of thought. i don't believe you can come to a solid conclusion without personal training and guidance from someone with a good school of thought.

have a method, and a good reason for choosing it. only you can justify your actions, or reactions.

good luck.

The Ball is Round.
The Game is 90 minutes.
Everything else is Theory!

I think your question is too simple.

What is the rest of the situation?

How far from the object are you? What brake settings are you using? Is your canopy slider up or slider down? How much altitude do you have?

Unfortunately, the answer to your question may be "it depends".

You're right. The question is vague.

Say this scenario... http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CCgQtwIwBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUqUE2_TET9I&ei=sbacVPSiI43n8AWAtIKQBg&usg=AFQjCNHdP4LTrqB6VGszxDtAhv5Tca9rBw

Its probably been discussed before but is going for toggles in this situation the "right" thing to do? I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself for every situation as best i can...

I will definitely be doing many courses with a range of people when I'm over there. Can't beat first hand knowledge and I'm sure ill be asking even more dumber questions than this one... Its all part of being fucking retarded i guess[crazy][;)]

i jump a helium and troll 245 combo with 5 vents.
ive freefell it from 196' and also took it to switz for a bunch of wingsuit and tracking jumps.
i never used the top through loop either.

i climb a lot of A's so i want a container that is solid built and can take years of rubbing against metal.

as far as canopy choice. i love my troll!
ive seen people hang from them until rescued (that most likely will not happen with an ultralight).

i cant even begin to count the number of people rega has to pluck from the trees on a daily basis in switz.

if i were to buy another complete set up it would be a troll/helium combo again. but i just got my girl an Apex Dp. (my second choice)cause thats her container of choice, it houses a troll 225

Post video of your girls DP when you get a chance. Sounds hot. Im a fan.

you asked for it

True! The Troll's have a higher AoA don't they? Aka so they have a longer glide which is great for long distance LA's but "harder" for sinking it in to a postage stamp in between a 10ft x 10ft LA on the talus of a "blue" cliff. Once I get to know it after 100's+ of jumps OS, it would make it second nature to sink it in on those tight spots at home. The troll's, MDV 5 of 7, have been mentioned heaps though as a great all rounder.... I'll be bringing all this to one of my mentor's when I get home tomorrow and "weighing up" all my options and finally make a decision.



Back to the topic... In that situation posted above, would jumping straight to rears (instead of toggles) and making a sharp left hand turn with rears have possibly changed the outcome at all? It happens fucking fast as fuck though.... Glad he's ok!

im working on a prototype canopy, that has one MASSIVE small mesh vent as the entire bottomskin, with a giant valve on top of it that closes when the canopy is pressurized. it will be the fastest pressurizing canopy in the world.

Opinions on canopies are like assholes, every base jumper thinks theirs is the fucking tightest but 95% of them are full of shit.

Fuck yeah! Sounds AWESOME! If I buy 10 of them, can I get a discount? I also want the whole top skin to be a MASSIVE "custom logo photo" of roostnureye's photo of his girls hot DP!



I am gathering that but I guess its like everything in life, you gotta sift through all the shit in hope you'll find some fresh pieces of corn that has a chance of any nutrition. Especially on here!

I'm just going to order a rig when I get home, borrow an old BASE canopy off a mate to practice packing with, then buy a new canopy when I get OS off whoever I do the first course with. First hand real info seams to be the best way to gain real knowledge... but this is entertainment anyway

Ps. Found the thread for that exact cliff strike... Getting the jist that rears would have been the best choice in that scenario. But fuck it happened quick! All helps for mental preparation though... It's definately different when it happens in real life, then and there, compared to sitting at a computer screen watching it that's for fucking sure! It's all learning...

Cheers all for all the input!

here is a direct link to my description of what happened in that strike if you didnt see it already. post #62

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2970712#2970712

Raw footage with sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtaeiHhSUGE

I personaly pitch like a devoted gunfighter as portrayed by western films. I wait thousands of milliseconds at the pitch for the surprise opening. I quit doing bs jumps when i got my mojo. It didnt respond much on RR. kinda sunk out. My Raven3 was back uppable. like reversing out of a park place. But that is so last century IMHO one should jump a backwards flying canopy if doing close stuff. i mean that one should be able to back it up with risers. Old school was riser controll. Just standby after the pitch and watch your risers and dont reach for them, concentrate on getting the toggles if you dont have a canopy that flies backwards. Or jump a site that accepts the controll of your canopy with risers. Your decision if risers or toggs should be made before the jump. not intransit. The Best response to your question is dont jump sites that are heading critical.
Take care,
space

Yes I did read it and thanks for posting the links here! It was cluster fuck of shit in fuck all time at all, especially as you impacted the only rock sticking out spot on ... Glad your all good/healed by now!? And most of all, still alive to tell the tale!

Ps. I know all to well about how fucked up spinal compressions/fractures/blown out/exploded disks are done L2-3-4-5, T11-12, T1-2-3 and C3... Oxycontin was great the first month, after that its fucked... walking is great though!

Just out of curiosity, what were/are you loading that blackjack at?

Base283: Good points all noted. Always have a plan for the worst on all jumps and deal with what you are dealt as you planned before. A good run up could have changed the outcome in this scenario, even a millisecond longer delay would have missed that rock... All things to think about and plan for at every exit point when scoping the jump before hand.

Thanks for all the input!

The quick answer is whatever keeps you off of the wall first and off of the talus second.

The full answer is much more in depth and is a function of a lot of variables. .. brake settings, control line settings, currency, precision, slider up or off, tracking, wingsuiting, separation from object, height above the ground, winds, line twists, etc all influence response.