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Low experience jumper had cliff strike yesterday evening (slick), hanging up on the top step of talus, canopy luckily snagged on a rock. Possible tension knot, hopefully the jumper will provide more details once able.

The rescue was very complex and took till 7am this morning, 15 rescuers were on the wall all night using a large spot light, risking their own safety from falling rocks - hike up to the base of the wall and you hear rock falls every minute. The jumper was finally extracted by helicopter at first light.

The jumper suffered a broken leg and facial injuries. He was very lucky that his canopy snagged else he would have continued sliding down the talus with even worse consequences..

I personally don't take students up on evening loads, mainly because its more windy, on the 2 morning loads there is less wind and its more predictable. The majority of the incidents are low experience (<20 jumps, first SU jumps).

Having a volunteer rescue worker who has been on the wall all night look you in the eye and hand you a blood stained parachute makes you think..

Do we know the nationality of the jumper? Thank you in advance

There is no thanks big enough to those guys risking their lives and taking care of who needs... love'em all!!!

Has anyone ever made a time-of-day graph showing when the fatalities and serious accidents have occurred in the Valley?

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In the Valley or at the ITW? Unclecharlie is talking about the ITW I believe.

Yes, you're right. My bad, I mixed them up -- but the question still stands for either or both. It seems to me that such a graph might yield some useful information and it wouldn't be that hard to compile. The attached shows what I mean in general terms. The idea is that some patterns might emerge that validate/confirm in actual numbers what folks like Uncle Charlie and other old farts know from experience.

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It was a south wind up top and mid layers. the jumper was screwed before he jumped. Same as the fatal in mid August. All the Locals know this is a walk down for trackers. why do you ask not the locas?i It is not like we are hiding. I did a conversation about this 2 hrs before. both accidents. no one listens to me. have fun.
take care,
space

Everyone knows that bad shit only happens to the "other guy", right?

Back in the day, Al Frisby told a guy at Perris he'd bounce if he kept doing what he was doing. Nobody paid attention. Guy bounced shortly thereafter.

Not long after, Al Frisby told another guy at Perris he'd bounce if he kept doing what he was doing. Nobody paid attention. Guy bounced shortly thereafter.

Not long after, Al Frisby told another guy at Perris he'd bounce if he kept doing what he was doing. Nobody paid attention. Guy bounced shortly thereafter.

After that, word got around that if Al Frisby told you that you'd bounce if you kept doing what you were doing, you better pay attention.

Unfortunately, it's harder for the word to get around ITW and the Valley because the jumper population is essentially transient and it is hard to build tribal knowledge and/or know who the wise old farts are so you can listen to them.

Accordingly, I have amended my proposed accident table to include one more category.

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p.s. It might also help if you changed your nickname to Deathwatch or Deathcall Tracy... it would impart more gravitas to your warnings for those who give more weight to messenger label than message content.

it matters not. no one is asking the Locals.
Mucho BASE. dynamic south wind is a nogo, for tracking. well known. wtf, shall i give up my life style to help jumpers fuck up? tct

When I was there it seemed like most (if not all) trackers were opting out of afternoon loads. Trackers had their fun in the morning and the wingsuiters had the luxury of sleeping in, if they were so inclined.

Any issues with wingsuits in the afternoon? Or is it only the slick/trackers who can't effectively get out of the bowl?

Though I recognize the conflict of interest here, I wonder if Fabio and Adrianna can be compelled to warn trackers paying to jump on afternoon loads. While it's counter-intuitive for them in the short-term, the long-term success of their business is dependent on ITW remaining open.

Wow Al Frisby thanks for great memorys. I partied with Al in 93 all night on several lucky occasions

A little off topic but if you visit Romsdalen please also make contact with locals. We also get wind.

Robin this site is the only place to we can gather incident reports from therefore we should all be more transparent with incident info.

A spreadsheet hosted on Google Docs (or similar) would be useful. Put a sticky link for members only somewhere...

Happy to hear signal rather than noise. Good idea Robin, will do.

The locals are meeting up this week to talk about the fall out of this incident (the press and TV have been busy) and also the high frequency of incidents this year.

I can definitely back up that claim. Being a newb at ITW it wasn't hard to find the locals just by asking around. They were really helpful and I realised pretty quickly that evening jumps were not a good idea while I was slick tracking.

I'll admit as a newbie approaching the more experienced jumpers was a little intimidating but they were really helpful and nice so I'd encourage any inexperienced jumpers to do it.

Has ITW become too popular to continue without some sort of more formalized/organized management/support structure similar to SBA and SBK?

Possibly. When I was there Fabio regularly had 3 vehicles transporting 30+ jumpers to the trail head.

The idea of an association is being floated around yes, Fabio is also talking about a school of sorts but just chatter at the moment.

No-one wants to be the 'fun' police, we locals just want to try and reduce the number of heli rides and night rescues.

It's a shitty job but someone has to do it :-)
Speaking out of experience if you want to keep a spot open

I don't know if this is an exaggeration, but I've heard stories somewhere of people tossing a rock off and it being blown back up to the exit point. I've also heard that the winds are reliably shitty after a certain time of day, more or less like clockwork.

I'm planning on visiting sometime in the spring and I can't imagine jumping in anything that even vaguely approaches the sort of wind that can blow a rock back up, so is it pretty safe to assume that the conditions will pretty much never be appropriate for beginners later in the day?

I'm all for it!

Reasonable measures should definitely be in place to protect the site against well-documented yet common errors (e.g. slick jumps in the afternoon).

No chatter, we do it. I am working on it.
Tcs (take care space)

LOL

Maybe relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DVyRtJyDNE

I spent a few days at ITW in August after having started terminal jumping a couple of weeks earlier in Kjerag, and left ITW realising that there is a lot more going on there than meets the eye.

I did 8 jumps, all with a tracking suit.
Jump 2 - landed on a trail as I couldn't make the main landing area, having passed through a large rotor and sunk out a lot in the later part of my canopy flight. The formation of this rotor was explained to me afterwards by an experienced local jumper.

Jump 6 - sudden instability at deployment height. I was tracking normally (as I had been for the last 30 jumps) and it was like someone grabbed my right leg and tried to roll me forward and over. I pitched while tracking slightly head down and to the left, and on video it looks like the bridle extended out quite close to my right foot before the PC inflated.

Jump 8 - early morning load - full line twist on deployment for no apparent reason. That evening was when Maria (the Russian girl) went in, having jumped in bad conditions and not tracked far from the wall.

I'm not a hugely experienced jumper, so maybe some (or all) of all that was my fault - packing, body position, etc.

But I do know that the weather at ITW is hugely important, and complex. Out of 8 jumps there were 3 where winds may have played a part in potentially critical issues.

Anyone going there for the first time I strongly advise to talk to the experienced jumpers there about the weather - not only could it save your life, but they are pretty likely to be a cool dude too (hi Tracy, Rick and Chris :).

P.S. Perhaps Fabio might like to keep a stash of radios that he could sell, like the SBK. Could help a lot with off-landings and walking down.

Yea - I thought people were kidding about that too, but then it was brought up by a fairly experienced jumper in the thread about the Russian fatality back in August. It's not exactly the right context for that kind of joking around, so I think rocks flying back at you is a real thing.

http://www.basejumper.com/...post=2976363#2976363

Yeah, ITW is serious stuff in other than perfect conditions yet too often people end up pushing the envelope beyond reasonable. Let us ensure it is not out of ignorance. As a beginner will applaud and support any initiative from the locals to help educate us the jumping community and save some lives. Also we should not be shy of sharing our concerns at the exit point when conditions do not look right... and the hike down from Brento is not that bad and makes a good opportunity to chat with nice people!

Nice post.
I have been jumping ITW for 18 years 150ish jumps there. I simply dont jump in winds that i dont understand. Winds at the exit point are a symptom of the winds in the area. They dont necessarily follow intuitivity.
i have experienced 3 differing wind layers. I was on one load with the "Devil's Wind" (the Wind from the Lake). All of us had nasty openings via opening in the turblayer.
My flight was about 5 minutes of sink and lift. Trying to get out the corner was very difficult. I set up for landing a couple of times, then i hit an updraft that carried me to the main LZ. i did kiss the ground after i landed safely. It was the most turbulent flight in my life,
Yes my canopy was collapsing, trying to keep my canopy open was the priority rather than avoiding an object strike. It was not evident on the exit point that the winds blew one into the corner. I saw the dynamic winds on the drive up. I look hard since. flags, trees on the way up and lakes and clouds after checking out the weather reports.
Evening jump attempt equals a 50% abort possibility for tracking wear IMHO. Going slick is sick. i am a very conservative jumper, i did jump slick before the turn of the century.
I will write more if you wish.
tcs

When I jump in brento these are the easiest rules to adhere too..

Morning get 2 tracking jumps in when the winds are generally in your favour

afternoon is for wingsuiting ..

With the base bus and no hiking you can get 2 tracking jumps with ease.. and also if you have experience then you can track in morning and wingsuit in the afternoon..

I would sit at the café and watch jumpers trying to beat the house every afternoon just going on dark..

If your on the exit in the afternoon and the light is fading.. imagine being in a tree at dark and no one knows where ya are..

As one of the most experienced wingsuit pilots in the world would tell me...

those who track in the afternoon are gambling with the house and yes you could get a few in here or there but after a while the house always wins...or winds whichever way you want to read it ..

As always people will read the information and go in one ear and out the next

As we all know no one ever dies on holidays ..

Cannot tell for 100% if that was a knot as the camera got broken away from the helmet on the crash and the lines where cut off by the rescue (they did not allow me to use cutaway). However, there was no line over (first thought, wanted to use break release), left steering line appeared loose below slider and the canopy was rotating left rapidly (using the right riser did not stop the rotation, only slow it down) so the assumption is that it was a tension knot although I could not see the knot itself trying to control the canopy.

That much about the cause.

And about the conditions - we were ready to hike back, the decision do jump was taken AFTER speaking to locals (including students just like me) who warned us about the turbulence but stated it's still ok to track slick as they all did, and it's enought to fly the canopy 45 degree angle towards the wind to reach the landing area.

Hi guys
Just my 2 cent ;-)
I have spend my last 13 years on this cliff ! I have done at today 978 jumps from that cliff, more than half in slick ! and hundreds at the evening ! No injuries or other just 2 tree landing and close the main landing area !
So ! I think that the reason of all the problem in Brento in the last time it’s the accessibility combined with the overestimation own experience !
Before Base Bus transform Brento in skydive center Monte Brento the problem here were limited !
So ! we need to do a step back !
Ok ! Base Bus but only to San Giovanni !
Resume to hike the cliff BASE Jumper !!!
Resute to discover the real spirit of that sport !

For me for the evening jumps one of the solution could be, jumps only with wing suit or track-suit (If are able to fly it ) and if anybody want to jump slick, he should have done at least minimum 150-200 jumps with slider and minimum 20 from Brento, and if there are doubts about being able or not to handle the situation, come back !

Students are not Lokals. All the Locals know that the Devil wind from the lake is bad news. I was there as a lokal for you. Hiking up was pointless. I thought it was a joke, that a non wingsuiter was jumping. Actually, I was the one who called 118. There were no lokals on the jump. Lokals knew it was a nasty wind. No one asked us. We need your advice on how to avoid these situations. push the fact of rescue. sunset loads suck if one even tweaks an ankle. Heli's dont fly well in the darkness..
tcs

I mentioned students to stress that there were also other unexperienced jumpers there. And before the jump we spoke with Maurizio, thought he fits definition of "local"?

Thanks for sharing. A good example of how things can turn bad quickly in Brento. In August I had an interesting track and canopy ride with the Devil's Wind. Definitely more information = safer jumps in this huge and complex object.
I hear Maury's comments about the bus and tend to agree but I am divided between the pros and the cons. Removing the bus may decrease the overall number of jumps but will not necessarily keep the less experienced away, while it will be more difficult to keep track of them. Definitely easier access has a calling effect on jumpers including the less experienced, but on the positive side, since the bus is now how most people access the exit, it offers a good opportunity to work with Fabio to inform, educate and even filter who gets onboard...

how many walked down, aborted i mean,

tcs

Joe, my last day at ITW I opted out of an evening load (despite being a wingsuiter) due to the sketchball trackers about to hop on the bus when a significant weather system was visibly approaching. Very much
to his credit, Fabio said he'd take up the wingsuiters but not the trackers. I applauded his logic then and again now. Regardless of being a wingsuiter, I decided not to jump anyway.

While we are on the topic of ITW. I remember where you pack your canopy, people used to fold up the tarpaulins after each jump.The place was a nice and clean..Now Most are left out for days and weeks at a time.The packing area has trash and bottles left lying around.Not much grass grows there now.I see problems with this in the future.
So many trees chopped down from tree landings.
The respect for Locals jumpers and Ethics has almost gone.
In my opinion the Bus to San Giovanni is a good Idea.
ITW is a beautiful place with friendly Italians.
I hope the Incidents decrease before It all gets too much.

Just plucking this straight out of the air but it appears that there has been an upturn in incidents since the BASE bus started! Is it now far to easy for folksto get to the exit point?
I wouldn't use it by the way!

 

SO! Did either of you clean up some trash, or hump up a small shovel or some lime to clean up after some of our less enlightened colleagues? Or roll up the mats that are killing the grass?

You act as if you just arrived on this planet. Many people are slobs. Some aren't. If you see trash, don't whine about it here; pick it up there and dispose of it properly.

I spent a lot of time in pristine mountains when I grew up and one ethic instilled in me by my parents was that, in addition to observing the old mantra "take nothing but pix, leave nothing but tracks (and minimize the latter as much as possible!)", you humped out as much "other people" trash as possible.

Of course there is more trash and more slob jumpers now -- there are more jumpers now! This is the new normal and in addition to riding herd on the bad manners of others it is incumbent upon everyone who DOES remember the "good (old) times" to educate the teeming new hordes about the way to act properly in the wilderness.

This was in fact a principal problem in the USA when Yosemite started getting jumped... even during the "legal" program, the proportion of city geeks to wilderness-literate jumpers was so far out of whack that it horrified the park people how many jerk jumpers were spray-painting their names on the rocks, and pooping on the trails, and leaving a trail of trash from parking lot to launch point.

In the "good (old) times" there were few enough jumpers that the slobs had a minimal impact and it took only one or two peeps to police up their mess.

At ITW, I would imagine that there is now at least an order of magnitude more jumpers in absolute terms and most likely an even greater increase in the number of total jumps and therefore hikes and pack jobs (especially with the ITW bus) since the "good (old) times."

This is the new normal, so if you want to preserve this stellar site (and you damned well better preserve it at least until I get a chance to visit!!), then stop whining and start picking up trash, liming or burying the poop, rolling up mats, spreading some grass seed... whatever it takes to maintain the site.

You guys make me laugh; it's as if you made 30 jumps a year in the "good (old) times" and now make 300 a year -- and you're whining because your gear needs more maintenance than it did in the "good (old) times."

The site IS your gear when you get right down to it and like your gear it needs to be maintained in direct proportion to the frequency and intensity of its use. Of course there is an ethical component to site maintenance, but the bottom line is that's it's a straight-line practical function.

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Edited to add: I was told after I posted this that in addition to whining, niallandrewh also cleans up his own trash and that of others, so good on him and I guess it's fine to whine as long as you take action too.

:-)

I guess here is the whole point... I'm not experienced but it happened I jumped slick in the evening and came back with the tracksuit in the morning...depending on the conditions (by it was not August). Or I waited a couple of hours for the wind calming down at the exit before jumping or before walking down...

I think people feels reassured because there are 20 jumpers on the exit and for someone means "everything is ok, jump it". Personally, too many people on the exit means the opposite.
Giving an example: when the last fatality occured in Brento, there were at least 25 people around the exit. Just a couple noticed what happened. I think this explains a lot of the new attitude (which the bus service contributed greatly to create, in my unuseful opinion)

FWIW. I once jumped Brento in the late afternoon. Winds where close to howling on the exit point, and strong winds at the bar. I was on the point of cancelling.

Then, two local Italians showed up. Told me that winds were not a problem, as long as you stayed inside the bowl Which meant smoke it down (really) and open just past the grey ledges. (which is OK in slick). Landing also close to the top. No wind at all!

So, some points:
1) I listened to the locals.
2) I did what they told me to do, not something else.
3) I had ample experience at that time (2007)
4) I would only advise this to experienced people. (oops, I posted it)
5) If I would have had a 180 I would still have had enough time.
6) a 180 with line twists would have been another matter, of course.

Ronald

Indeed. This must be a record year for incidents and air rescue(?)

If anyone wants to jump, all you need to do at this point is to find the base bar. Wait for the bus, pay 10euro and follow the CROWD for 15min to the exit point. With all the logistic done its gonna be a rush of newcommers doing their first jumps there. Lets hope it stays legal.

I think the rise in incidents is due to all the shit and piss on the trail near the exit. The mountain Gods are angry and punish you if you cant hold it until you get to the bar.

I think it is a bit unfair to blame the BASE Bus for the upturn in incidents. We should be able to look after ourselves.

Perhaps a structure like the SBK at Kjerag could be useful here - one where transport and a site specific FJC are overseen by experienced jumpers.
e.g. each load of the BASE bus has a designated experienced jumper as LO (who gets paid a little for her/his efforts), and first/last person to jump each have radios to assist with advising conditions/accounting for jumpers.

In the extensive account in the incident forum of Maria's last jump one thing really stuck out at me - that she was nearly forgotten about. People will still go in (and it sucks) but that someone could potentially go in and it not even be noticed is a bit disturbing.

would rather see the base bus go away then this

And just to add on, i dont think base bus is the problem i was just there in late august and Fabio was constently trying to talk people out of going up on windy evenings.

maybe we just need to voice a better mindset around ITW that going up in the eveing is poor form for the non expirenced

and what does this LO do, take responsibility for the load?

People are more willing to fall in under SBK because of the remoteness of the location, the cost, the hike & the boat. The same thing will not work at ITW.

People will continue to bounce and need heli-rescue at ITW until eventually jumping is prohibited, and even after.

Despite the good will of those who want to make it better, it will not get better.

It's been obvious to many people how things will go over the last 5/6 years. The only surprise it that it has taken so long.

This is exactly what would happen in the national parks in the US if they were open to jumping.

If the bus had not been there, people would have had to do more research to be able to jump. And it would have taken them more time and effort pr jump. Nobody would have showed up alone without any understanding of the place and just followed everyone else without any instruction.

I just think its to easy.

Maybe instead of talking, Fabio should just park the bus when it's too windy, just like they do with the airplanes at DZs.

It seems that this site is much more like a DZ than it is a "traditional" BASE site and as such should be managed more like a DZ. That is not to say the management should be formal and codified as it is when aircraft and civil aviation authorities are part of the equation, but with a set of guidelines that frame the activity.

I know Uncle Charlie said they were having a meeting to discuss the latest incident, but it seems that it would be a good idea for locals, elders and newbies (remember Zen Beginner's Mind) to put together a "best practices" set of guidelines that work at other heavily used sites and put those in writing and have a stack of them for the taking on Fabio's bus and at the BASE bar.

The idea is to regulate through knowledge not rules. One thing they do in Yosemite to frame the activity of backcountry visitors (notwithstanding their treatment of jumpers) is to require that anyone getting off the pavement and beyond the Valley floor get a wilderness permit. I think they are still free or cost a few bucks to reserve one, but there are zero qualifications to get one, because their primary purposes are to:

--control the number of people in a given part of the wilderness at a given time

--know when peeps are due back so they know when to start looking for them

--educate peeps about the weather, the bears, and other wilderness etiquette/best practices.

And yes, it's nice to say that "we should be able to look after ourselves," but if that's true, then why do we have other people check our gear at the exit point? The more dangerous the activity, the more sets of eyes and brains should be looking after everyone at all times, something Skratch Garrison called "lurkfulness" when he wrote about it in the context of skydiving. Lurkfulness was collectively and utterly absent when the Russian girl went in and I for one was horrified at the reported lack of concern or care or even consciousness of to look out for each other on that load... she was like a kitten in a pack of dogs and the dogs knew she was there and did nothing to help her stay safe because... "we should be able to look after ourselves."

This lack of lurkfulness is also manifesting itself in the trash-and-mats reports in this thread because, what the heck: If no one cares enough to watch out for each other enough to keep Maria alive, then of course no one's going to care if the grass lives or the launch point is buried in poop.

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That wouldn't stop anything. People would just do what was done before the bus came along. The only difference would be slightly more effort required to get to the mountain and little bit longer hike.

True, the analogy is not perfect, but without the bus wouldn't the longer hike give the jumpers more opportunity to:

a) assess the winds;

b) actively turn around if they don't like them instead of passively going along with the mob because they're on a bus; and

c) run out of time to jump before it gets dark?

On top of that, if Fabio parks the bus, then that in and of itself could serve as a big fat physical data point in favor of not making the hike at all...

Moreover, according to at least some of the other posters, the late afternoon incidents have measurably increased since the bus service started* so it might be worth giving it a try to see if it helps to reduce that particular incident class.

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* There is also a caveat here: The increase may be correlated to the bus service but the bus service may not necessarily be causative because other variables involved since the bus service started include an almost-certain increase in total jumper and/or jump numbers, an anecdotally-suggested decrease in jumper experience , and an apparent decrease in lurkfulness among the jumpers.

I am getting sick and tired of this kind of threads, the warnings and advice are READILY AVAILABLE, on the monument, located before you enter "dangerous" terrain, one may PAUSE and read it.. probably easier after a one hour hike when you're glad for a little break, especially after "hamburger hill"..

Also, monday morning quarterbacking is quite easy if you've NEVER BEEN TO THE SITE; so maybe better to shut up in the first place?

So anyway; i've walked the "long" way even after the bus was installed, i did appreciate it's existence too!

the problem is NOT the bus - the problem is the jumpers!

I was thinking just advising new jumpers to the area on the winds might be enough.
Anyway, it was only a thought.

First off, while it's cool that a non-American knows the term Monday morning quarterbacking, you are using it incorrectly.

Second, the current warnings don't seem to be doing the job, so the reinforcement I suggest may help. A similar thing did in fact happen a couple of years back in the wingsuit skydiving community. Had a rash of tail strikes (like 10 in one year or something) and it was creating a crisis where the insurance companies were getting ready to quit insuring the jump planes, so I said, "Put stickers next to the door that say 'keep wings closed for 3 seconds.'"

There were objections that everyone knew this and that said information was READILY AVAILABLE, but guess what? A bunch of DZs started putting those very stickers by the door and tail strikes essentially disappeared. As with the bus, of course, this was correlative but not necessarily causative because the debate itself helped to raise awareness and increase tribal knowledge of the importance of keeping wings closed on exit

This also speaks to those essential, fundamental reminders we all need, regardless of experience level, because those tail strikes were happening across the experience spectrum.

Finally, no I haven't been to this site, but the processes and procedures involved are universal not just within BASE jumping but across the backcountry sport spectrum which, again, is where the term "best practices" comes from.

The people most involved with ITW do not need to re-invent the process and procedural wheel to get a better handle on site maintenance and safety; they can look at other heavily-used BASE sites and also to the way other backcountry sports are managed when overuse threatens continued access to the site.

Mikki and the Kjerag people have done some really good work over the years in maintaining access to those sites, and in Europe especially, there are many non-BASE mountain activities that have to be managed well to keep them from being "loved to death" by their users. It's not that hard to find and investigate successful examples of effective management and apply the best and most useful practices to ITW.

And of course I say this for the most selfish of reasons: I don't want yayhoos and the clueless getting the place shut down before I have a chance to enjoy it!

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The 'old' hike is on the wrong side of the mountain so you can't really assess the winds. The part of the hike where you actually have any idea how the winds are, is shared by both hikes.



The time difference between the hikes is something like 15 mins vs. 50 mins. So you just have to adjust for the 35 min difference in getting to the old hike. The only real issue with the old hike is that if you wait at the exit until the very last moment to jump and then decide to abort you'll most likely end up hiking back in the dark. And it really gets dark when the sun sets. Although there are some really interesting glowing bugs in those woods and the scenery is pretty nice with the town lights coming from down the valley.



I do agree with the fact that with the bus its much easier to get to the exit if you're not familiar with the place. However it wasn't exactly rocket science in the past. Its just much more convenient with the bus.

So, what you're saying is, a sticker on the plane solves all problems - i wonder why the mucho BASE guys havent thought of that already.

If that isnt enough, the monument has all the fatalities listed.

The whole place is blotched with memorials too if you're still unsure!

Unless it has been updated I think it is missing some from the last few years.

The monument hasn't been updated for several years or more.

There are also memorials (bell, plaque & starfish) close to the gear up area.

Serious Q: is Fabio a jumper? Never saw him jump when I was there. Thought he was just transportation business

Did I imply that he was a jumper?
He is very intelligent on recognizing patterns. Like; Low exp/Sunset load/winds/rescues and recoveries. actually, there is no person who has seen more action there.
tcs

I agree, That is why i posted like i did.
But when Grandmothers who dont know more about the wind than the average BASEr one should present it different. you are not average...
MuchoBASE!!!!
Tct

Wasn't directing the question to you Space. Just wondered because some are suggesting he call off loads. Just seems odd

He Fabio has been calling off loads.
The legality situ has been an issue since 2000. They made their wishes known and we told them the consequences of their decisions.
tcs

I agree with this. Back in 2012, we had a very vague idea of where the trail was/lead, what the conditions were so we were forced to make contact with people more knowledgeable than ourselves. In turn, we made more informed decisions through local knowledge. It's obvious that with the advent of the shuttle service novices can just play follow the leader into the windy afternoon loads.

2012? Goback to 1994. by 96 we cut the path. sorry, it may have been 97.
One cannot follow people in this sport.
sorry i didnt say much.
tcs

.
What does that got to do with anything?

He just made it clear that only 2 years ago the situation was completly different from todays.


One can follow people to the exit point in this sport
Obviously you are alone once you exit.

if you dont see the probs with access, i really understand how you can not connect the dots. The only diff is that the trail i and my student blazed in '97.. Correlation or causation? Kjerag, same. And just because i am autistic doesnt mean I follow the leader. Peer pressure is like vanilla. it's ok but not mandatory.
I didnt open the jumpsites I only made access better and watch people die who didnt listen to me. and also that crap you young ones call music. Back in day the we were had real music. ;-)

tcs

Bad wind is no fun


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECY-c-BWqIk

https://www.youtube.com/...RGupOmBFF417JduGACRw

I do see the problem with (easy)access. Thats the only thing ive been talking about. That is also what BigfcknG where saying.


The difference between what? Im sorry, i dont understand what your saying :s


It that a comparison with the base bus now making the access easier?
What is your point? im confused.

Dont blame the BASE Bus. it is the same 1hr 45minutes from lz which ever way.

No its not imo. And ive already said why in my previous posts but here we go again.

Without the bus you must research alot more in order to jump. Or know somebody who will take you there and give advice etc.

I think the russian girl is the prime example of this.
As far as i know. She came alone, found the bar, had 10 euro for the bus but had noone who cared for her after she left the bus. And was almost forgot after she went in. (correct me if im wrong)

If the bus had not provided such easy access to the exit point she would have had to talk to someone in order to make the jump.

I think the bus is great for people who knows the place already. But i think it can be dangerous for first timers there.

This is just my opinion and for the record i think Fabio is a really nice guy its nothing personal towards him! But a mandatory briefing to first timers before they are shipped up there would be a good thing for everybody who enjoys this place.

I think that as with the other incident thread, sometimes people speak just to be heard

various people talked with the russian girl at the gear up and the exit. there was lots of discussion and she knew what the situation was. she would have gotten a ride from someone so it wouldnt have mattered.

Condolences to the friends and family of the girl. A very tragic incident. With all these incidents though, far and wide, the recurring question in my mind is where are these people getting their information on which they are basing their judgements? Because, in the last 12 months there have been some serious doozies. Before I went to Europe, I did a lot of research, took a lot of advice on board and never overestimated my ability or brushed off advice from more experienced jumpers. It seems that people are becoming more and more and more comfortable with just charging off exits without making a proper assessment of the possible outcomes. The incident forums are a constant reminder of this, and quite frankly, it's fucking depressing. Wake up people. This shit will kill you if you dont use your head. It's not rocket science and the information is no secret.