Basejumper.com - archive

Recently I enquired about getting medical for KL. Jeff Kearns, of Pacific Advisors informed myself and a friend that as long as we listed our address as being in Twin Falls (I am an Australian who has never been there) that we would be covered. I immediately became suspicious and questioned this. His response was blunt and ended with "if you're not comfortable with this, don't take the insurance". WTF.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt and asked for a clarification regarding being a non US citizen not residing in TF. Again, he promised that I would be covered. Not one to believe someone's bullshit, I wrote to the underwriter listed on the proposal and they promptly informed me of what I suspected all along. The cunt was full of shit. Beware people. Check and double check your insurance coverage regarding BASE, especially if from Pacific Advisors! !

It is my understanding that if an agent for a company says that you will be covered then you are covered. It may not be something that they in fact cover but you are buying the policy with the understanding that you will be covered, therefore, if you specifically asked about a certain coverage and you were assured by an agent, who's job it is to know the product he is selling, that you would be covered, then you will be. The company has to take the hit and it's recourse would be to fire and/or sue the agent for misrepresentation. Now, this doesn't mean that they won't attempt to get you off of the claim you would assert. If you give up your claim then they don't have to pay, so my guess is that they get their in-house lawyers to make you believe their is no way for you to win a settlement.

However, now that you are aware that the policy does not cover you would not be covered if you bought it.
That agent is really putting himself at risk by saying something is covered when it is not.

depends on the arrangement the agent has with the company.

in australia it would be more likely the agent is putting his own Professional Indemnity (PI) cover at risk (which he may or may not have) by giving dodgy advice, and you would be putting your policy at risk by not being honest with your insurance application. Either and both could be used by the insurance company as reason to not honour any claim. If they found out.

None of the above matters if your only real reason to get insurance is to meet the requirements to get on the kl load

What, specifically, did the underwriter say?

Could you forward me the email? Or just cut and paste the text here, please?

Thanks.

If i'm going to drop $400 on insurance, I sure as shit want to know i'll be getting my moneys worth. The guy was evasive multiple times and only came clean when I told him that the underwriter had told me I was not eligible. Slimy fucker.

From Email:

You contacted a Lloyds of London correspondent who by all protocol must tell you that they cannot provide you a quote because you are an Australian citizen. However, we are able to get you coverage by domiciling your policy in the US, by using the US address I gave you in the prior emails. The Lloyds correspondent isn’t going to tell you that. That is why you were referred to us in the first place by other base jumpers who have used our services. There is nowhere on the application that asks for your country of citizenship. So, Lloyds of London has no way of knowing you are from Australia. Per Australian law they cannot writer you for this coverage. However, if they don’t know you’re from Australia they have to legal honor the coverage they have bound. Now that you have given the Lloyds correspondent your biography they cannot write the insurance on you.

We all know that when a claim is made extensive checks are made regarding every aspect of the documentation. As soon as it was discovered that I was a non resident of the US there would be no way that the policy would be honoured. I asked PA of this was above board and he deliberately withheld information and misled me until I ound out for myself.

As for the requirements for KL, any old insurer will do. If you as an individual are not eligible for BASE related medical over as we Aussies are, then we just have to suck it up and not go full retard.

NEVER go full retard.

No matter what the agent had said, I doubt that would hold if you had deliberately lied on your application.

I found World Med insurance which includes BASE jumping under the hazardous activities coverage.

http://www.travelinsure.com/what/wmedhigh.asp

If anyone has any experience with them, I'd love to hear about it. Cheers, E

This was my concern. When I raised it with the agent, he dismissed it.

No idea how you made it this far in life. If it's not written into the agreement then you are not covered. you need to be able to provide proof that you are covered. if an agent working on commision can get you to sign a document by lying on it, you may want to walk away.

Correct. Any time you lie or misrepresent you are liable for fraud. I made the statement based upon what the agent said was true and that the potential insured was unaware of any wrongdoing.

Pretty childish how you automatically try to put me down because you disagree.

I take it you are not a lawyer because you are under the false assumption that a "contract" needs to be written in order to be enforceable. Please let me point you to a book called, Contracts: Examples and Explanations by Brian Blum, page 56 footnote 2.
It reads: "In colloquial speech, people often talk of "signing a contract." Strictly speaking, this is inaccurate terminology. The contract is the legal relationship between the parties, and the document signed is actually the record or memorial of that contract."

The 'proof of coverage' that you talked about providing is the verbal acknowledgement of coverage by the agent. Verbal agreements are every bit as enforceable as a written one but most have no idea how to enforce it. It's more difficult but still 100% enforceable. Obviously, getting something in writing is better but it is not required.

As I replied in the previous post above about lying on documents.... of course this is illegal and fraudulent and will not hold water in a legal battle but if the potentially insured individual is unaware of the insurance companies rules and regulations and they are detrimentally relying on the agent to supply true information because they are a representative of the company then how is the potentially insured individual lying? It becomes a lie when they are made aware of the true nature of coverage and do nothing to correct it. In this particular case the potentially Insured had no idea until he investigated further and got clarification. Now he is aware and if he tried to get coverage and there were a claim there would be some issues.

Like I said before this is my understanding of things. It's unfortunate if it gets your panties in a bunch!

more:
Agent Definition - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/agent

Agency definition - http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/agency

No. Maybe you didn't read the OP properly - the agent advised him to put down a false place of residence. The OP doesn't need to investigate anything to know where he lives and where he doesn't live. If he had been really stupid and taken the agent at his word he would still have intentionally lied on his application, and stupidity is no defense for that.

I took out their policy in March 2014. Was not asked to use a US address. About a week later, two ppl who were on the same trip as me (we are all AU residents) were asked by Jeff to use a US address at Twin Falls. Since I had a certificate of insurance with my AU address on it I didn't pay much attention to it but since then, more ppl referred to this odd request by Jeff.

In AU most insurance agents are acting on behalf of the insured, not the insurer. Therefore misleading the insurer with a USA address could and most likely will result in claim refusal.

I wrote to the underwriter yesterday, explaimned the purpose for the policy (base, cliffs, etc) sent him my insurance certificate and asked if a) it was issued legally and b) if they would issue it again. Below is his reply:

From: Robert Clark - Petersen International Underwriters [mailto:Robert@piu.org]
Sent: Friday, 29 August 2014 01:16
To: aaa
Subject: RE: C e r t i f i c a te #6971666

Mr. aaa,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Your previous policy (#6971666) was issued, without error, and provided coverage for all items stated within the applied dates of coverage.

We have been recently informed by the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority that insurance coverage for Australian citizens must be furnished by an Australian insurance provider. Due to this recent stipulation, additional terms of insurance for similar coverage cannot be offered going forward.

We are regretful of the inability to serve you and hope you can understand our position of compliance.

Thank you for the opportunity to be of service. Please let us know if we can answer any additional questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
Robert Clark

PETERSEN INTERNATIONAL UNDERWRITERS
23929 Valencia Boulevard, Second Floor • Valencia, CA 91355
P: 661.254.0006 • F: 661.254.0604


Subsequent to that email, an email came from Jeff (even though I did not CC him on my original email):

From: Jeff Kerns [mailto:jkerns@pacificadvisors.net]
Sent: Friday, 29 August 2014 02:05
To: aaa
Subject: RE: Fwd: aaa

aaa,

I’m reaching out to you because I know there has been some confusion related to Australian citizens acquiring travel med insurance. We have been recently informed by the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority that insurance coverage for Australian citizens must be furnished by an Australian insurance provider. Due to this recent stipulation, additional terms of insurance for similar coverage cannot be offered going forward.

We are regretful of the inability to serve you and hope you can understand our position of compliance.

We unfortunately cannot help the Australian base jumping community moving forward.

Thanks for your understanding in advance.

-Jeff



Jeffry W. Kerns
VP of Sales, Pacific Advisors
1702 North 34th Street
Seattle, WA 98103
Ph: 206.633.2922
Tf: 877.455.9580
Fx: 206.633.0185

So the short answer is - while I do not have any evidence that PA are not a legit agent of LoL, they were "bending the truth" a little bit. And, no they no longer offer BASE insurance to AU (probably all non-US) residents.

On a side note, the wording of the email from the underwriter and the agent are surprisingly similar. Just makes one wonder ))))

Verdict: if you are AU resident - stay away from them.

As I suspected all along, and he deliberately kept me in the dark until the last possible moment. The lesson here, in my view, is if you have any suspicions, no matter how small, always dig as deep as you can to get a 100% clear cut answer, regarding any contract you sign. As shown, you can't always take things on face value.

Are there any insurers available for Aussies then, there is an APRA exemptions process available maybe something that could followed up

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2008L02169

4D Insurance contracts for other risks that cannot reasonably be placed in Australia
(1) For subsection 3A (1) of the Act, a contract of insurance is specified if an Australian insurance broker certifies in writing that the risk insured under that contract cannot reasonably be placed with an Australian insurer.

(2) In deciding whether the risk insured under that contract cannot reasonably be placed with an Australian insurer, the Australian insurance broker must be satisfied, on reasonable grounds, that:

(a) there is no Australian insurer that will insure against the risk; or

(b) the terms (including price) on which any Australian insurer will insure against the risk are substantially less favourable to the insured than the terms on which the unauthorised foreign insurer will insure against the risk; or

(c) insurance with an Australian insurer would be substantially less favourable to the insured than with an unauthorised foreign insurer because of other circumstances.

we need to speak to an Australian lawyer, because they are making laws to stop us being covered from overseas but no Australian company will touch us, maybe there is a loophole?

I would suggest that you don't need a lawyer at this stage, rather:

Contact APRA, with a brief note stating the situation along the following lines: "Dear Sir or Madam, I am having trouble acquiring travel insurance cover that includes a particular high risk sporting activity excluded from the policies of Australian insurance providers, and have been advised that it is in fact unavailable here. I believe that I can acquire cover from a foreign provider, but understand they are unwilling to offer it due to perceived conflict with Australian regulations and / or advice to them by APRA of same. Accordingly, I wish to make my own enquiries. If it is indeed unavailable, I wish to work with an Australian broker in accordance with the provisions of clause 4D of Insurance Amendment Regulations 2008 (Cwth) with a view to obtaining insurance cover via a foreign insurer. I would like confirmation from you that this action is lawful under the governing regulations. Thank you for your assistance with this."

See the list of Australian insurers from the APRA website via the link attached, and check the websites of each insurer to find out whether they offer travel insurance - see the ICA link for most of these links. Since APRA has taken the trouble to block a foreign insurer from providing BASE cover to Australians, I would suggest having APRA engaged in this process, so that a foreign insurer providing cover can be advised of their participation in this process if necessary.

Write a form letter, or email, and send it to each insurer that offers any form of travel insurance, stating "I would like to confirm whether you offer travel insurance to Australians that includes cover for activities often referred to as extreme sports, such as mountaineering, alpine activities, BASE jumping and other parachuting sports, and helicopter travel, along with more usual travel cover. Please advise at your earliest opportunity."

If you send it yourself, and present a summary of all the replies to a broker when you seek insurance (rather than have them do it for you), you can take the information to another broker as necessary. Have the broker acquire the foreign insurance policy. You can help them by providing contacts for known providers.

I would also send a summary of the advice received from the Australian insurers to APRA, so that they have no reasonable cause to make further trouble for off-shore providers of cover that includes BASE.

The contact details of the Australian broker and the name of the policy so acquired can be posted on here, and you can than bask in the glow of kudos from Australian BASE jumpers.

Naturally, the best insurance is to jump within your limits, don't make a mistake, and don't have bad luck...and always wear a condom.

http://www.apra.gov.au/...eneral-insurers.aspx
http://www.insurancecouncil.com.au/about-us/our-members
http://www.apra.gov.au/...UFI-information.aspx

I will contact the APRA, I would like to reference the law that is in place stating they cant insure Australian citizens, so I could add it with my emails, do you know where I could find it?

I thought I read about this in a similar thread a few months ago - from memory it was to do with an Australian government stimulus program to boost the domestic insurance industry but wasn't able to find out much more about it.
I guess Australian insurance companies wouldn't regard BASE as a sporting activity due to its mainly illegal status in Australia so they'd have no impetus to include it in coverage.
A bit silly considering that many of us are willing to give them hundreds of dollars for a few weeks of peace of mind.

http://ministers.treasury.gov.au/...mp;Year=&DocType

Some relevant background explanation is provided on the APRA website at: http://www.apra.gov.au/...UFI-information.aspx. BASE jumping is readily described by "other risks that cannot reasonably be placed in Australia" as further defined in the link provided by Strife, simply because everyone that tries to get travel insurance that does not expressly exclude BASE jumping fails to do so.

The same set of laws and regulations that established APRA, and govern its operation, cover insurance operations in Australia, including who can provide financial products for Australian residents. If you're a permanent resident of Australia, Australian law applies. If you're an Australian citizen living elsewhere, the relevant laws of your domicile state apply. If you provide false information, your insurance is normally void - as per BigfknG's original concern.

APRA is the governing body. It's their job to know the correct legislation. If they deny that this is possible, then I would put it back on them to justify their position with a list of relevant references to legislation, rather than quote legislation they ought to be well aware of. If you need to discuss the process, you could contact your local federal member's office. It's their job to help with this type of issue.

It is not legal for an Australian resident to buy insurance through a US broker. However, it is legal for an Australian resident to buy insurance from an Australian broker, who procures it from an foreign insurer that is unlicensed for Australia for cover not offered by a licensed Australian provider, provided that the process in 4D of the regulations is followed.

The simple fact is that Australian insurers won't cover BASE jumping, and once that is established beyond doubt, the way appears open to acquire a policy via an "unauthorised foreign insurer", as in one that is not subject to APRA control. You don't need the legislative reference.

This should solve the insurance roadblock for Australian BASE jumpers, at least while there are still insurers willing to underwrite BASE jumpers somewhere...so please stay safe people. Every claim tests the willingness of insurers and their underwriters to provide cover. You have to assume that somewhere, someone is adding up the cost of all claims made that pertain to your particular pasttime, dividing it by the amount of money they have taken in premiums to cover that activity, and adjusting for the cost of other risks covered by the funding pool. 1000 guys paying $1000 each won't cover many claims of the kind this sport is capable of accumulating.