Basejumper.com - archive

Hi,
I have already heard some indications but which is the best solution to have for a brand new canopy in case of upper surface?

HTS from Apex / ZP noses from Atair can grant better gliding and fast opening , but they may have a lack of heading....

Look also that HTS/ZP noses are more indicated for terminal jumps, while a standard canopy fabric is more for low jumps/ sub-terminal...

Any opinions or facts here?
which is your experience?

thanks
J13

I can compare HTS with F111 and full ZP because I have 2 fullZP topskin Fox (no vents), one HTS Fox (one vent on central cell) and 2 F111 Fox (no vents) All with multi, old school style

I have very few slider down jumps compare to slider up jumps. slider down mostly with F111, and a couple with full ZP but none with HTS. So i will talk only about slider up jumps, terminal & sub-terminal.

I had no more heading problem with the full ZP or the HTS than the with the F111 ones. In fact, even less because when the F111 get old, your canopy start sniveling at opening. With the ZP, the fabric (nearly) never get old

The only (big) problem with the full ZP is the fast reaction when you pilot deep break / back risers. So i wouldn't recommend it on low jumps (i mean, near the object !) or for beginners. But an HTS doesn't react like full ZP, it's (in my opinion) more close to a F111 canopy for the "piloting part".

I haven't seen a big difference in performance (glide ratio) with the HTS (Full ZP really fly better !) but i now order my new canopys with HTS only because they last longer ... more jump before they start sniveling at opening. F111 is not so durable

So for what i know (slider up jumps) :

Full ZP :
Fast /strong opening
really good glide ratio (for a 7 cells)
tricky to pilot deep break / back risers
Last forever (nearly !)
Heading OK
heavy ! bulky !

HTS :
Nearly same opening than full F111, but for more jumps
Glide ratio ~ full F111, maybe a bit better
Less problem with deep break / back riser than FullZP but no as easy as the Full F111
a bit more heavy & bulky than F111 but not terrible

Full F111
Really good deep break piloting / landing.
good openings, but the F111 can worn out very fast sometimes ...

The conclusion is :

My favorite canopy is the HTS with one vent, for terminal & sub-terminal jumps, especialy for the sub-terminal ones !

For slider down, i prefer Full F111 but i'm not really into slider down jumps ...

Thanks a lot MontBlanc for the great feedback and the facts listed...
:) great !

One question: why HTS with one vent only?
for instance , why not HTS with 4 Vents? too hard opening ?

Cheers

The HTS with multi have already fast openings. I'm used to jump unvented canopies, so i could go with no vent on this one too.

But i had a fox F111 with one vent (had some small trouble with this one without vent, slow openings ... so they added one vent on it) and i found that one vent on the central cell give really good openings, not stronger but more reliable (in term of regularity), so i'll put a central vent on all my new canopies More than one isn't necessary for the jumps I mostly do, it's just to increase the "central cell" inflation first ...
4 vents = more hard opening , more bulky, more expensive


These are my opinions, based on my experience. Some people with a different experience may have a different feeling / opinion on the different top skins and use.
Try to find people in Italy that jumps HTS or Atair equivalent and have a beer/chat with them, or try one

perfect...
really many thanks , really good inputs.

Prego !

This is usually a packing issue. The ZP is harder to pack well, so inexperienced packers can find that they have trouble getting good opening heading because the nose is "slippery" and doesn't stay in place in the pack job as easily.

In general, I recommend that new jumpers either avoid the ZP or commit to making the first 50 or so jumps on a canopy with the ZP from am object where opening heading is not a major concern (a nice bridge, antenna in tailwind conditions, terminal cliff, etc) so they can "tame" the ZP a bit and learn how to best pack it.

Thanks Tom...
actually an argument really interesting ....and real!

Assuming that the canopy has a predictable behave in normal conditions, the issue is the way the canopy is packed by the jumper.

good point!

I've put several jumps on Aces, Foxes, Blackjacks, and Fliks; and the thing that has controlled glide more than anything is aspect ratio and trim, not a ZP nose. Opening speed was controlled by a pack job, and the height difference was hardly noticeable from as low as 250 feet (pressurization may have been different but I can't remember it ever being an issue). There are advantages to a ZP nose, but the things you mentioned aren't really them IMO. My go-to everything canopy is now an all f-111 canopy, 4 upper controls, 4 vents, 2.08:1 aspect ratio. I can fly far or land short without issue. Just my $0.02

i have about 100 out of 500 jumps on ZP hybrids, the gains to me, are negligible. (however there were no cons for me, and no changes in heading performance etc.) yes, it may last longer. but, personally i ran mine into a building before it lived very long. so, that didn't really play out. haha.

anyway, as Tom said, packing is slightly more difficult for the inexperienced hands, and again, the gains you get will be in exchange for frustration. also, it will be slightly bulkier/heavier.

so all that, and a lot more random unimportant personal opinions, i come to this conclusion:

IMO, especially if you are a newer BASE jumper, don't bother with ZP anything.

Interesting I have a less jumps than blitz.

I had 125 jumps on Flik then bought HTS Flik now have 125 jumps on the HTS.(most of those are all low 130-500ft)

Felt noticeable gain in flare power and forward speed. Stall point seems to be more pronounced.

And ya the first 50 pack jobs are real fun : ) so I would concur ZP isnt for new jumpers.

sorry, shiny is my favorite color and i got distracted before i truly finished my thought...

there are definitely performance gains, but to ME i felt they were negligible. not to say they are not totally worth it to some. i find i truly like the simplicity in pure F-111 and that the added bulk and cost are not worth adding zp for me.

that being said, like a lot of things in BASE, keep it simple as a beginner... figure out the fancy options you may like later on, after you've been around a bit.

The one thing I havent heard of is how long someone has left a hybrid canopy packed and still jumped it.

its funny how often this question comes up. I would say bridge day to bridge day should be fine if your worried just have somebody repack it.

Yes, as I said too, the only noticeable gain is the longevity. But this is a big gain

You're right on this, as a beginner it's better to jump a regular canopy.

But for the packing side, packing a full ZP top skin is really a big pain in the ass.
But the HTS has ZP only on topskin between A/B lines and the packing isn't that hard. I wouldn't recommend it to a real beginner, but after a couple of pack job done, everybody must be able to pack an HTS. If not, cut your lefts handedness hands and buy some right ones

jeriko13 seems to live in Italy. So I guess most of his jump are from medium / big cliff but I can be wrong, some people there jump building and low bridges too the probably live too far away from Dolomites
Edit : i forgot the end ! If you choose a lightweight canopy like the Trango 3 to have a lighter rig for the hikes, you WILL have ZP nose which come as standard, so get used to it ...

Ditto

I'd personally only ever even consider ZP

if it was a dedicated Slider-UP only rig.



Funny tag line, how many trees have you hit?

Not that much, 5 times ... but that's already too many !
The last one was really a terrifying experience, I spent 1h45 hanged 50ft above the ground ... on small branches (with my HTS fox !)

So please, print this message too

Thanks guys,
I really appreciated all the feedback given, really cool and useful :).

Well here in Italy we have everything actually , spans from 40 to 70 meters, , antennas up to 100 meters, earth from 80 to 800 meters :) ,
Just the building are a little bit more difficult to be found :) , but still there are some as well .
More Croatia is close as Lauterbrunnen :) .

About my next canopy , now I have much more clear ideas, thanks!,
the only problem that remains is that i need a big one , a 354 , thats made only by Apex.. as I am not sure that Troll 305 can cope with 110kg.

Have a great day!

Corrected for you

Good jumps, whatever canopy you choose !

In case of slider down, you're using the full F111, how many VTec has it ?.

So far , my weight is 110kg, and I use a 354 , 4 Vtec, and I was kind of ok with it , but now that I am considering to buy a new canopy, and that probably my jumps will start from 60mts upt to 800mts ( so terminal, subterminal, slider down) I was wondering if not better to have a 5 vents.

suggestions?

I have no vents on my slider down canopy because it's an old slider up rig recycled in slider down. I don't do low stuff anymore.
So I can't give any advice on the slider down stuff because i'm a pussy in this part of the sport
But you'll find many very experienced people in the dark slider down side of the BASE

hahahah you are great, thanks