Basejumper.com - archive

I've seen a couple of guys in some videos jumping slider down/off and the LZ is THE ONLY place to land and the control lines are thru the guide rings. With little to no delay and a tape/tail gate, why wouldn't you? Would you say dropping a toggle is a greater risk than having a line over?

This was discussed a couple weeks ago, the link's below. But I had the same question, and yes I do route my brake lines though the guide rings slider down for that reason. I do it that way depending on the jump. If it's a place with a very tight lz surrounded by boulders, like many of ours are up here in the northern rockies, then I'll route it that way. However, if I'm at Twin, Moab, etc... with much more forgiving lz's, then I'll use the LRM.

http://www.basejumper.com/...ost=2974656;#2974656

for SD, I never put my lines through the rings, if i do have a line over or some other mal i would rather be able to toss it and use my rears. I feel like even a WLO would take too long in the SD environment.

How many line overs you have personally seen or do know from credible sources that have occurred on tailgated SD deployments? In this topic I always want to bring up the example from a crane boogie couple of years ago in a certain eastern european country. We were about 30-40 jumpers, all quite experienced. I never route my steering lines outside of the guide rings, couple of experienced jumpers spotted that and we had discussion about it. Everyone asked me what am I going to do with a line over and yet no one had actually seen one (in SD, tailgated deployments). But still everyone was very concerned about them so they insisted packing with LRM. My concern was that the LRM is prone to break fires. Of course, you should know how to pack your brakes so that they won´t fire. Still, even though we all were quite experienced jumpers, I saw at least 3 break fires during the boogie (in about 300-400jumps) out of which one resulted in quite serious injuries due to a rear riser stall on concrete.

Now I´m not saying that LRM or not to do LRM is right or wrong. All I´m saying that it is a question of choosing the risk you wish to take and the accepting the probability which it might occurr. Personally, I´m willing to accept the risk of a line over which I will not be able to clear so fast as with LRM (I do have WLO toggles but I know using them will take much more time) in exchange of not having to deal with the risk of break fire resulting in lost toggles. I do think that the risk of tailgated SD line over is so small that it is acceptable in exchange of not having to deal with landing with your rears to a shitty place (event which I personally think has very high probability when using LRM).

Why not Moab? I would think the risk of a 180 and hitting the cliff and dropping your toggles would warrant the use of the guide rings...?

Sorry, probably a bad example. In MOST situations though I would elect to not use the LRM.

i very much agree with Markus' reasoning.

i do like the LRM however, as at least two thirds of my jumping is SD/SO, and i've grown to like the feeling of the lines free of the rings. i also do not use tailgates. but i have done the occasional SD jump with lines in the rings, because i'm not too afraid of the line over occurrence.

that being said, i have seen a handful of SD lineovers. but, all of the ones i've seen cleared themselves or righted very quickly upon clearing the toggles.

it's another one of those situations i believe requires a completely educated choice. if you have less than, arbitrarily i will say, 100 jumps, you should likely be making the most conservative decision.

:)

Good Point!

I have seen plenty of blown toggles, maybe a dozen
rear-riser wrecks, two or three required hospital, but
have yet to have or even see a line over BASE jumping.
{Knocking on wood and crossing myself right this moment}

I abandoned the line release mod after watching a gear manufacturer keeping his brake lines in the rings. The explanation sounded logical and I followed suit. Similarly I have never met a person who had a SD line over with a properly installed tailgate.
Disclaimer, i have only 100 SD, the vast majority of my jumps are SU.

I had a slider down line over
http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1862335;page=unread#unread

I read your thread. Interesting. I think that's why I made a poll. I have never had a line over or had a brake fire. I have dropped a toggle. At first I was pissed and then I realized I had to turn the canopy around to make the LZ. Once I got the canopy turned around an realized I couldn't make the LZ I got just a bit scared but not for long, I did have an out in the water, then I got pissed again because I was going to land in the shallow part on a riser and a toggle and thought that I was going to get hurt. It all worked out and I walked away. That all could have been avoided if I didn't drop my toggle, but it could've been avoided if the control lines were thru the guide rings. What if that was on a not so forgiving object? That's my reason for thinking this thru as much as possible with as many different perspectives as possible to help me make my own decision about what configuration I jump.

First of all, I hope things are going well. After reading that post, I don't think that no matter what configuration you had you were still going to crash. Do you think pulling on the line to continue the turn made it worse? Do you think if you looked up first and saw the LO and then just released the toggle from the beginning would've cleared it?

I had a SD lineover in July this year. I used 3 rounds of masking tape to secure the tailgate.

The lineover didn't clear by itself nor after pumping the brakes 1-2 times so I threw away the toggles (I don't have WLO toggles) and landed safely using rears. Luckily there was a big landing area.

I've never had a toggle fire so I'll just keep routing those brake lines outside of the guide rings.

Everything is good now.
I opened rotating and my first priority was avoiding the tower, so I pulled down on the right toggle to continue the turn. I looked up and saw the line over, because of the somewhat tight landing area, and having enough altitude I chose to give it 2 pulls to try and clear it before tossing the toggle. I have wondered if it would have cleared instead of tightening if I had tossed it straight away.
~Jamie

FWIW I have seen more injuries due to mis-routing than line overs. . .

I can't believe this is a discussion. As a sport, we're doomed if we can't educate our less experienced jumpers a bit better. If he has to ask this question, we have failed miserably. I'll bet he has some great video though...

I have no idea why you would say this isn't a good discussion. If anything it's progressive thinking.

I now do slider off jumps (after jump 100 or so in2005 ) always with the slider off not down, I notice a DRASTIC difference in the way the canopy feels while flying an unrestricted canopy and brake lines. Does performance matter slider off or down? not appreciably i'm sure, but I like the way it FEELS. It does offer a better more organized view to deal with line twists and the like too. Anecdotal.

I have on about 30 or 40 slider off jumps routing the lines through the rings. First it was just to test it out, to explore lazy pack job changes. Then it was on a few jumps where I thought it was a better idea to pile in under a bow tie than land without a toggle. I have done some jumps where I intentionally dropped one or both to try it out. IT SUCKS, but is better than piling into a cold mountain talus under a spinning main. There are a few situations where the risk is higher to drop a toggle, but they are few.

It's scary to think that extraction is not the only way to lose a toggle.

I try to be very meticulous with three things while packing; The orientation, staging and tensions of the pack job in the tray, the primary stow and the high quality of toggle velcro and setting assembly.


Tangent; I don't like or use LRTs either. I have never had or seen a line over slider up or down. I know they exist, seen video, talked with people who have had them, etc. But my unverifiable and anecdotal thought as well as talks with my good, trusted jumping friends(a few of the most experienced (BASE#>900) jumpers on the planet is that the ways I pack lowers my chances of having one drastically. Not saying it can't bite me someday, but it is my (anecdotal) position on the matter of slider up or down brake line routing. ~700 BASE, ~700 skydive jumps in 10 years and never a scratch from parachuting or even a malfunction other than off headings and line twist.

I've heard anecdotally that lineovers actually happen MUCH more often than people think, it's just that most of the time they clear themselves during deployment.

If that's the case that lineovers are actually common, but mostly benign, I could see that as an argument for the line release mod. In that case its not a matter of packing or technique, lineovers are just a random oh-shit factor that may be infrequent, but have some probability of biting you on any given jump (even with tailgates, etc). I want to have an answer to any situation outside of my control, thus LRM.

Losing a toggle seems more controllable via proper technique (well-maintained velcro, properly routed loop, pull up on the line to seat the toggle after stowing, and don't fuck up and drop it).

I can't personally confirm or deny the frequency of benign lineovers however. Thoughts?

I doubt anyone can any more reliability than with anecdotal evidence.


That's the weird thing about this sport, that the reliability of the equipment cannot be accurately quantified. We can't even accurately quantify the rates of fatalities per jump save a few well-policed locations and those are a small fraction of the overall picture. I suppose most other high-risk sports would have the same issue, but the slightly underground history and mindset makes statistic of BASE especially difficult or impossible.

Many years ago I designed and had built a set of risers with a releasable set of guide rings. You ran the brake lines through the guide rings thus preventing a lost toggle if a brake fires on opening but as you normal release the brakes after opening the guide ring was "cut-away" (would stay on the brake line). This way you could prevent a lost toggle if a brake fires but if you had a line-over you could still just release and toss a toggle.

The downside to this setup was the added rigging (and possible mistakes) during packing.

I gave the risers to Tom A. to test. If I remember he put a few jumps on them and they seemed to work. I'm not sure where those risers are now.

What are you talking about ?

I can't see any situation where you would want to jump slider down/off with control lines through the guide rings. A blown toggle is not a reason in my book. Stow your brakes correctly and you won't have to ride a line-over in.

Unless you want to make it faster to switch back and forth from slider up or down and there is not one way that out ways the other as far as advantages and disadvantages.

I see what you are saying, I got to thinking that a tension knot on the control lines would be another reason. I think that a tension knot might be more common than a slider off, tailgated jump than a dropped toggle or line over...? Maybe..? I dropped a toggle once and it was because I was in too big of a hurry, I believe line overs can be prevented through neat packing, proper pilot chute, and correct body position, etc. dropping a toggle can be prevented by grabbing ahold of the toggles with a purpose, but Tension knots... I know line tension during packing and walking the lines out will help. Like you said, in your book is something different from other jumpers books, and I like to read, and since them I've re packed my re pack to take the control lines back out of the guide rings.

I am in no way advocating going through the rings while slider down; however; I think a tension knot on a control line while slider down is hardly a huge deal once open. No slider can get stuck. And in most cases, even above the cascades, a knot doesn't take up such huge amounts of line that the canopy will be out of trim in an uncompensatable amount. It could ruin heading, but nobody is popping toggles and dropping one before heading is established, sooo... But if someone has slider down control line tension knot problems then feel free to correct my thinking errors (after you untwist your brake lines prior to packing).

Cheers!

edited for spelling

One needs to look objectively at the possible out comes vs skill levels. If one cant RR land safely (not stall), then LRM wont improve safety of the jump.
If you have adequate water for an LZ. I dont see a prob except that you could have used this a training exercise for using the LRM. Also the canopy drag is much less in the water if you shed your gear and start swimming with a LRM released toggle in your mouth Like a pirate.

Preemie toggle releases issues? Learn how to rig duh. It isnt rocket sugery.
The LRM was designed by a canopy pilot for canopy pilots. are you a canopy pilot or just a payload?
A canopy flare is dynamic. 2 toggs, one dropped, both fired etc. pilot the flight.
bottom line is that if one doesnt know how to do a RR landing, stay with the guide rings. if one doesnt know how to stow the brakes propery. use the guide rings..
if one can rig and pilot the canopy in all scenarios, use the LRM.
that is one one more tool in your toolbox for dealing with LO´s.
Take a look at the CRW forum and ask what they do with a LO on deployment.
My first impression of a jumper i see going without the LRM SD my first thoughts are, a.bad rigger or b. bad canopy pilot.
My exp on this subject comes from this. 4 landins where I had no chance to unstow. 7 jumps Brake lines free, RR landing, testing the SULORM. I stood it in the peagravel every time on a Raven 3. 1 low jump that I only managed to do a one toggle release, stood that one up also.
also on my 6 or 7th Base jump, i had a confirmed LO. threw the toggles away and landed crosswind in a rr turn.

i didnt stand that one up. but i didnt hook it into the darkness. the jump was where one had no chance to see the ground because of new moon and no Lz light
tcs

I'd like to know what numbers you are basing that statement on.

I'm not basing it on numbers. I'm basing it on how much line it takes to make a knot, and how much canopy deflection it will create.

In the sky environment I've had two knots. One resulted in a left turn that I landed using more right toggle, and one resulting in a stuck slider.

The point remains, if the lines aren't through the rings when slider down then you have the option to drop them if it's too severe to fly and flair.

By all means, if you have some worthwhile insight that I'm lacking feel free to enlighten me.

I would say that the vast majority of tension knots includes multiple lines, commonly your control lines and a C/D cascade. So the real effect has less to do with the line being shortened by the length of a knot and more to do with the airfoil getting deformed. So if you take the most common tension knot and throw away your toggle you are still going to have a tension knot.
That being said I'm sure people do get fairly docile tension knots but I would think they are less common. Just like line overs, some times they fly but more often they spin.
Not sure how common slider down tension knots are though. Seems rare.

Makes sense.

I find it interesting both Chuma and Mario on tandems do not use LRM.

(different set of circumstance and risks)

Maybe because rear risering a tandem is significantly harder than solo.

Edit: Also it would be a lot heavier on the toggles so the guide rings would help a lot with the flare.

also most TM-BASE jumps are S/L or PCA,
hence a lot less chance of a line over since
the deployment is immediate and slower

So is this adding a new angle at using LRM? S/L or PCA TG SD vs. FF TG SD, which deployment method would create a better chance of a mal that having the control lines thru the guide rings would hurt you? Obviously the two tandem guys chose not to use the LRM. I wonder if they use WLO's? There seems to be enough altitude to have a chance at using them.

 

Yes, Mario used the guide rings on tandems because it made a significant difference in the landing flare.