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we have first base course instructors helping kill new base jumpers. PM for more info as they will delete my post about TA being a killer...
lt

and others, if you knew what I was referring too.
which is why I asked for pm's because one of the mods is who I am talking about...

No one makes anyone else jump. Take some personal responsibility.

I will but don't give me none of your base ethics bullshit then.
fjc instructors taking the students to jawbone...wtf...
is that responsibility.. Ithink not...

Wasn't jawbone and wasn't an fjc student, but feel free to keep spewing diarrhea of the mouth.

I know exactly who and what you are referring to. No need to PM you about your ignorant opinions.

This is not accurate. If you want to respect Adam's legacy please consider making evidence based comments. Adam had around 100 jumps by this point and as usual it was a series of factors that led to this unfortunate incident.

No two ways around it, this sucks but finger pointing and misrepresenting the situation isn't helpful.

All semantics...numbers don't mean shit, he was attending a fjc for more info not death...
not jawbone my bad, info I got was wrong then and so was I...
what difference what cliff I gotta say...
so what if I am spouting off...doesn't everyone...
not the first time this has come up about the same fjc....


base 000

I think all of us who knew Adam are hurt and upset by this. It sucks dude but irrationally blaming people and distorting facts without understanding the situation is still not helpful.

It wasn't an FJC and it wasn't during any one of Tom's four courses.

Death fucking sucks. I feel you - I've been crying sporadically since last night (I'm soft as baby shit like that) and I only knew him for a couple weeks. I can't imagine how hard this must be for the people that were really close to him. But I maintain that the best way to honor Adam's legacy is to have a thoughtful, evidence based discussion about the factors that led to this so we can learn from it.

I'm taking this with a hermeneutic of generosity and assuming your perspective on this is based on misinformation rather than slanderous intent. With that in mind, I think if you reached out to the people that were there and knew about the situation they'd be willing to talk with you. If you could do it without vituperating that would probably be helpful.

I'm sorry for your loss man.

I know this sounds trite but please do let me know if there's anything I can do.

Best wishes,

Bryan

Agreed. Adam was an experienced jumper who was far more prepared for BASE than 90% of us. This has been a tragic reminder that no matter how much we practice and prepare, jumping slider down E's is a very unforgiving area of an already unforgiving sport.

As an aside I'm always mystified by some of the rumors that I hear spewed from various corners of the base world about Tom. I once had a jumper from NZ swear to me that Tom was the president of some huge nationwide gun club called the "NRA" or something.

Can somebody point me to the incident report?

Regardless of rumor or fact, there is little positive that can be said for an advanced training course, aka first cliff course, off of the extremely nasty cliffs surrounding Twin. TWIN FALLS CLIFFS ARE NOT BEGINNER OR EVEN INTERMEDIATE WALLS!

Moab used to be considered highly technical. The exits that Snake River BASE Academy is taking students from for their first cliffs are horrible.

Students seek training to learn in as safe a way as possible. Local Twin Falls cliffs do not provide that. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible, and borderline fraudulent, to those providing payment, and a massive disservice to the BASE community.

The student in the end loses out the most. One of the most important aspects of training should include a conservative approach to technical objects, not lip service to that concept.

That generally would mean starting off students on overhanging, smooth walls where they can begin to develop a mental site picture of what an ideal exit should look like. Taking them to an under hung chunk fest and telling them it is sheer or okay is bullshit... sorry, that is as nicely as I can put it. It distorts their perspective of what is ideal from the start.

I am all for personal responsibility but when a student pays you 1000's of dollars and you give them bad information or short cut best practice, you bear some burden, whether you like that or not.

Get the permits to operate on BLM in Moab, bandit it, or can the advanced course. Continuing to lure an entire new generation into this con is the most nauseating money grab I have seen in BASE.

For what it's worth I took the course years after I had been BASE jumping from slider down cliffs, and I have now seen many people go through the course you mention. The people I see come out of the Object Avoidance Course are the ones doing running exits and taking solid delays. I've been on loads in Moab with plenty of people with 100s of jumps doing poised exits and short delays that have no business being there. In my opinion the course takers are 1000 times better prepared than the people I see take friends to Moab to do go and throws from Mary's Gash or Tombstone.

Also, no one makes them jump the cliffs in the course. The course is to learn object avoidance drills and the skills to evaluate the cliffs. There have been courses to my knowledge where the students chose not to jump some or all of the cliffs you mention. Several of the students in the class I attended avoided one of the exits and just ground crewed for an experienced jumper.

That said I've even seen some of these people in the course successfully turn around 180s and in one case it was even the first cliff jump.

The course also is not $1000s of dollars as you mention. It's quite a bit less IIRC.

The most ridiculous jump in Moab is ten times a better and safer idea than any of the shitslabs made of kitty litter at the Perrine.

I really hope this isn't the same Adam I just took the avoidance course with. Either way it breaks my heart to think about it. I will say though, I thought the course was extremely thorough. I felt completely confident that I could exit stable and deal with an off heading accordingly. I was made fully aware that the cliff I was about to jump was no joke. There was no question. I think the blame being thrown at the instructors is bullshit. It's BASE jumping, Not field hockey. We accept the risk and make decisions based on personal risk/reward.
My heart goes out to the family and friends.

And they all have the potential to put you in the hospital if you aren't running the fuck off it and taking a delay. Which is better practiced on a platform antenna or ramp at a bridge as opposed to your first jump at Mary's with a skydiving helmet and 100 perrine jumps which mean dick.

It seems like there are some misconceptions floating around.

I'm going to assume those misconceptions are not actually being actively created/encouraged for other reasons, and that they are actually misconceptions.

So let me try to clear up a few things:

1) This accident did not take place during a training course of any kind.

2) There were no students on this load.

3) I was not present during this load.

I'm really unclear as to why some people are saying (some of them apparently to law enforcement officials) that this accident took place during a course and/or that I was on this load.

I realize that several people making these statements are closely affiliated with BASE training providers, or are actually in the business of BASE training directly for themselves. I would hate to think that this is simply an unhealthy manifestation of unprofessional behavior created by competition between various training programs.

It does seem strange, however, that the people actively pointing fingers are almost all closely affiliated with some sort of business that is in competition with my school, and that none of them have actually sought out any of the facts about this incident prior to throwing around various accusations.


Matt, I talked with you yesterday at the Bridge. I would have hoped that if you had concerns you would be comfortable talking to me directly, or calling me on the phone. I'm sorry that you seem to think that posting here is the best method of communication.

It seems odd to me that your desire to improve my instructional program has only come out in the wake of an accident which did not involve a training course, students, or myself.

I'll try to call you between loads tomorrow to see if we can talk about this.

Can't be bothered sending you a PM easier just to call you a asshole straight up

Tom,

Feel free to give me a call tomorrow. I was busy and you had between 10-15 students milling around so you had other priorities.

I am aware that my response was a drift from the intent of the original thread. I am not accusing anybody of anything in regards to Adam. However, you cannot honestly say that the cliffs in Twin Falls are ideal for a first cliff jump.

And yep, I am associated with a number of FJCs, I can think of five different courses run by people that I consider close friends. Most experienced jumpers are friends with or somehow associated with an FJC. I work with none of those nor do I advertise or schedule one either.... so the subtle redirect/accusation does not change the fact that Twin Falls cliffs are shitty beginner cliffs.

I don't find it strange at all that experienced jumpers (particularly those with enough knowledge and understanding of the sport to teach) understand the real and unnecessary danger your students are exposed to.

Teaching isn't about removing risk, it is about managing risk. Sketchy cliffs that ninjas treat with respect are lousy, albeit geographically convenient, choices for a first cliff. That is specifically what I am talking about... The quality of the training is negated by poor site selection.

Do you regularly jump the cliffs and feel they are safer and more suitable than other places? If so, then forget everything I said.

Feel free to start this on its own thread.

Well, people certainly are not pulling punches in this thread.

I've only been there once. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the area. I eye balled a couple of things that I thought might be vaguely doable. But I honestly think I could go to Moab, blind fold my self, and walk to ward the rim, and fall off a better exit point then any thing I'd seen in Idaho.

Just purely out of curiosity could some one post a pic of this wall that people are making fist cliff jumps off of? You've really peaked my curiosity because the geology and terrain just didn't seem to lend it self to really good, come do me, exit points.

Lee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aMZIOMZ9BI

+1

FWIW - what I learnt on Tom's course saved me from a cliff strike 2 weeks back. Highly recommend his courses to anybody looking to stay 'safe' in BASE.

What? he couldn't look back up at the cliff?

I thank you for your quick response as I sit here board in the middle of the night but it's not the most informative angle.

I see a nice run off. He got a bit of a delay. But I was seeing a lot of positive ledgeness with grass and shit growing on it and a really rough wall with a lot of "I don't want to hit" on it. Not selling me. When I look down and there are enough positive ledges to be growing that much grass I take it as a bad sign. I could see eating that ledge on a 180.

Lee

Do people go and do their first E's off that after the bridge??!!

First, let me reiterate the fact that Adam was not enrolled in an SRBA course at the time of the accident. Adam HAD taken both the FJC and Object Avoidance courses offered by SRBA as well as the FJC taught by Sean Chuma. Adam was a very competent jumper with knowledge and skills in the 90-95th percentile of all slider down jumpers.

Second, for those who may be unaware of the courses offered by SRBA, SRBA offers an "Object Avoidance" course not a "first cliff jump course". The course is designed to provide students with the required knowledge and safety skills to jump solid slider down objects in the safest way possible. Those skills include, but are not limited to: running exit theory and practice, deep brake theory and gear customization, and numerous object avoidance techniques and practice drills. How many "experienced" jumpers have proper custom DBS? How many "experienced" jumpers have a stable running exit? How many "experienced" jumpers have purposely packed 180s and practiced object avoidance from the bridge prior to jumping solid slider down objects? Or better yet, aside from the people who graduate Tom's course, how many people have done one of those three prior to jumping their first E? I'm willing to bet the percent of active "experienced" BASE jumpers is very few. So, like I said above, Adam and all of those who graduate Tom's course are somewhere in the 90-95th percentile in terms of both skill and knowledge. Now, to address the difficulty level of the cliffs near Twin Falls. Yes, as a community, I think we can agree there are better sites to make a first cliff jump from. However, the skills required to jump any slider down cliff can be and should be attained at the most forgiving object possible (the bridge). To say someone MUST start with the most perfect overhung cliff and advance to more difficult terrain is complete bullshit. Every single jumper that intends to jump slider down solid objects should have the above skills perfected prior to their first cliff jump. Whatever cliff that may be. The most perfect exit point can be hit just as easily as the most marginal without the proper skills and gear setup. So, back to the original discussion, SRBA teaches the skills to prepare jumpers for their first E, but does not specify when and where that should occur. It is completely up to the individual's personal risk assessment to decide when and where they make their first cliff jump. Some decide Twin is the place for them, others choose to wait. That is their choice, but regardless, when the time comes, they will have the skills and preparation to participate in this extremely dangerous activity in the absolute safest way possible.

Finally, having known Adam personally, it is incredibly disrespectful to use his death as tinder to attack other indiduals in this sport. Adam was an amazing individual with an outstanding perspective on life. He approached the sport in a very educated and calculated manner and acknowledged the risk involved. While studying BASE related accidents makes us better understand the risks of this sport, I ask people to refrain from making personal attacks. Especially personal attacks rooted in misinformation. There are a handful of people who know the details of this specific event from either first person or direct second person knowledge. If you are not one of those people, I suggest keeping your thoughts to yourself until the facts are presented and you can make educated comments about the incident.

Fly free Adam, while our time was short, you will be missed by many.

I'm with you on the not pointing fingers thing, but it's just dumb to say that you don't necessarily have to choose a forgiving cliff for your first slider down E because you are supposed to have the skills to handle anything before you even try it.

Of course you should strive to have the skills to handle a low underhung cliff, but even if you have them then realistically there is a much higher chance that you'll fuck up on your first jump in a new environment than subsequent jumps after you've had some time to acclimate.

Ever heard of someone messing up a bit on their first try at something scary because of nervousness? It's hard to predict how you will handle it until you give it a shot and I'd rather have some margin just in case.

You said that "the most perfect exit point can be hit just as easily as the most marginal without the proper skills and gear setup", and that is just not true.

The dude in the video looked like he took a decent delay and had a decent running jump but he still opened really close to the wall. If he did the same thing at Tombstone he'd be pretty far away.

I don't care how prepared you are or what your brake setting is, it's going to be a lot easier to hit the wall when you barely manage to get any significant distance than when you get a good push off of something overhung.

No. I'm only aware of a handful of people who've made their first cliff jump from that site, and no one I've ever been there with was making their first cliff jump.

I'm not sure where Lee got that idea, but again that's simply not true.

My apologies.

I didn't know that you had stopped teaching.

I know I've seen you at the Bridge with your own first jump students, and I know that you showed me your curriculum for your first cliff course.

I wasn't aware that you were no longer offering those courses, or that you were no longer teaching.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, and my apologies for my confusion.

Does anyone know how many base jumps he had? He did his first jump course in early to mid June of this year.

Around 100.

He did his first jumps with his mentor in June, and had dedicated most of the summer to BASE. He took our Fundamentals course in early July, then took a first jump course (from someone else) the following week. He was here for about a month, then went to visit family for the last week of July, and then flew back here on July 31. Aside from visiting family he was here for most of the summer, and jumping continuously, and had followed three different "first jump" progressions (the jumps with his mentor, then our Fundamentals course, then the other first jump course). He was more or less immersing himself in BASE for the summer.

 

This is just semantics. There's no benefit to be had from arguing if he was "experienced" or "new" - these terms are subjective.

The reality is that he had more formal training and more relevant skydive experience than 90% of all other jumpers, "experienced" or otherwise. Bad sh*t happens to good people. In BASE, and in life.

I plan to attend Tom's Object Avoidance Course in September and look forward to the bulk of the training which occurs on the bridge. Packed 180s, custom DBS, running exits...this is the focus of the course as I understand it. The cliff jumps are optional, just like every other BASE jump.

Having been through his FJC and knowing Tom personally, I find it very hard to believe that he would ever mislead jumpers into thinking that any cliff is safe. Quite the opposite. I left Tom's course with a much more sober and cautious outlook on BASE than when I arrived, and that is a direct result of his instruction.

You didn't answer my question. Do you jump the cliffs around Twin Falls, particularly the same ones your students make their first cliff jumps from?

 

A more fair question would be: Do your instructors that assist the courses you teach jump the same cliffs you put your students on?

Which is yes.

While I'm sure he appreciates the business, I also appreciate the service. That's how supply/demand works. Tom only continues to offer these courses because his students see value equal (or in excess) to the price, and subsequently pay him for them willingly.

If you're a regular jumper (sky or BASE) in San Diego there's a good chance I know you. I don't jump too actively in this area aside from a well known A and a local low E. Most of my jumping has been done at Twin and in Europe. That said, I'm always down to meet local jumpers and hope to see you at the upcoming cliff event. Come say hi, I'm a nice guy if you can see past the clamps.

Joe Putrino

So he must definitely have the best of the best? I read on the Internet once that 63.7% of all statistics were produced from incomplete data and the rest were made up on the spot.

And I don't know who you jump with but almost everyone I know, even those with less than 100 jumps, know how to run off an object.

You guys just sound like religion salesmen at this point, reword and twist it however you want but Twin Falls cliffs are not beginner cliffs and have no place in beginner courses/training.

And Tom, you never answered my question. Do you jump from the cliffs you pick for your students? A beginner wall shouldn't be a concern for someone with over 1000 jumps.

I'm not standing on anyone's side of the court here, I think y'all can fight your own battles. But I don't think that it's been said, written, or posted anywhere that the Object Avoidance Course is for beginners or that these walls are forgiving/easy/good for newbies. The course has a Snake River FJC as a prerequisite...and if you happened to take another FJC I believe that you would be allowed to sit through a Snake River FJC for free in order to fulfill that prerequisite. If profit was the only motive here I don't imagine that policy would be in place.

I can see how one would think that a training course including these walls kind of implies that they are less dangerous. That is a fair critique. But knowing Tom I suspect that he gives all of his students fair warning.

I have not jumped a solid slider down object since my children were born.

That's a personal risk decision that I made about BASE and my life, relative to my personal responsibilities as a parent.

Prior to having children, yes, I opened several of the cliff exits here and have jumped many others.

Everyone is going to make their own risk/reward decisions in life. You may look down on me as a timid old man, but I'm happy with the decisions I've made. Lots of people change their decisions after they have children, in lots of different ways. I'm not alone in this.

As BASE698 pointed out, other instructors at the school jump these exit points (both during and outside of courses), but I suspect that your point is intended to be rather more personal, which is both strange and a little sad.

So you feel personally attacked for someone pointing out a fault in your course?

Matt, you are one of the most, if not the most, bad ass BASE jumper I know. However, I feel like you are being a complete ass in this thread. Tom had nothing to do with the Adam's death and he should not be expected to do all that his students do. No one asks that football coaches that are in their fifties be able to hit with the pros. The knowledge and experience is what is valuable.

Additionally, do you vet all the jumpers you take to the technical sites in AZ?

+1
Matt's posts seem rather personal

what fault did you point out?

My bad, I now realize that the chunky cliffs next to the bridge are much better choices for new jumpers, rather than the 100's of taller, cleaner options 7 hours south in Moab.

How many football pros do you know who have played the game for less than 3 months?

Now THIS is just talking semantics. If it wasn't clear, the point of his analogy was that you can still teach something without having to practise it. How many professional sports teams across the globe have coaches that still play the sport?

It is semantics indeed but I think the analogy is a bit off. A coach for a professional football player is teaching / coaching professional athletes who have trained, lived and breathed the sport for majority of their entire lives. What we are talking about here is teaching the basic fundamentals of the sport and not any cutting edge out there stuff what the pros do. For the record, when I was teaching tennis for 10 year old kids as a summer job 20 years ago, I indeed was playing the the game on the level that I could do a proper backhand and forehand (the basic skills I was teaching to the kids). And for the record, I don´t know TomA personally but have heard a lot of praise for his teaching and his courses. So I have nothing to comment on that topic. What I find interesting though is that people here are referring a guy with 100 jumps (I guess most if not all from the same bridge) and 3 months in the sport as an experienced and skilled jumper and even making analogies to football pros. Now I think that is a questions semantics indeed but in my book a guy with that background in the game is not an experienced and seasoned jumper regardless how committed and talented he is / was. He is / was a pure beginner but it seemed that he was on a good way. Too bad it ended way too soon for him. My condolences to the friends and family of the deceased. BSBD.

I agree his post could have worded better (semantically speaking ;) but I still think his analogy about coaches was still on point, as it was addressing Tom's decision about jumping certain objects, not about the skillset of someone else.

As for what has been said of the jumpers experience, given the amount of objects/jumps/training and mentality, that can never be agreed upon. But having known and jumped with him, and seen what overall skillset he had, I'd be very interested to see what the majority of experienced solid slider down jumpers would do differently in his suitation. BSBD Adam

Without knowing the person, the exact circumstances or people's so called vested interests in this situation, it should be remembered that people who engage in BASE should be able to assess the situation and gauge it against their own perceived ability. As history has shown, this is of the utmost importance.

BSBD mate.

Um. Hi. Excuse me...yes, sorry...but WTF IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD!?? Football pro's and coaches and 3 months and careers...and sweet baby Jesus.

These forums are stupid.

Simple math. You jump off big object. Big object can kill you. Next.

OMG, someone died BASE jumping? No fucking way. It has got to be someone elses fault. Lets all point fingers so we feel better...

I agree with the past two posts. Not sure why we are all shocked of a death in base jumping. Obviously none of us are out for death, but we all know it's possible. ESPECIALLY on a unforgiving object. Sucks all around. Sucks more for those who are being blamed, that's not fair. Unfortunately getting hurt or seriously scared in a shit situation is the best way to realize this isn't a game, some of us are lucky to get hurt/scared and learn, and this wasn't one of those lucky situations.

I think that people are hung up on semantics of the word "experienced" here. A better term would be "competency". I only got to make a few jumps with Adam recently, but I would say that his competency level in skills necessary for slider down jumping was significantly higher than that of the average jumper I see at solid objects in the SW USA and Europe. I have jumped with plenty of "experienced" jumpers who showed far less competency when it comes to object avoidance skills.
I would also be very interested to see what the majority of "experienced" slider down jumpers would've done differently in the same situation.

I have jumped the majority if not all the cliffs out there many times each. I have opened a few of them with other instructors in search of a good first cliff. Most of you probably have never been to these cliffs or have no recollection of them even existing. They are not positive, and in the case of the "regular" first cliff, it is overhung to the ground due to a large block at the top. Yes, some cliffs in Twin are sketchy, but those arent the ones the students go to.

I'm just curious how they learned to do that. Personally, I did it by winging it on high antennas where exit stability wasn't an issue. I've seen other people, with hundreds of jumps, in Moab also wing it off lower sketchier objects leading to interesting results. They see other people running and decide it's time for them to learn it as well.

Are you saying everyone you jump with is so talented that they don't need time to practice avoidance skills or running exits? How do you know if you don't test them before chucking them off in Moab? What do other cliff courses, like the ones in Moab, teach? How do the students practice?

  To keep this thread constructive and not try and play the blame game, I'd like to touch on several valid points made. First to the last couple of posts, yep it's BASE jumping, it's very dangerous and people do die! If you haven't known someone personally who has died or witnessed it first hand, stick around long enough cause you will! And no matter how much you prepare for the inevitable seeing the anguish on a loved ones face as their beloved pounded in is a feeling I wish on no one!
I think the point was proven a few months back when Amber attempted a first Wingsuit BASE off an object when there where much more forgiving objects out there, albeit across the pond to make first Wingsuit BASE jumps! In this situation with Adam one theory I have on this comes from my skiing background! Just because you have skis on and can ride the chairlift doesn't make you as good as Jt Holmes! But strap a parachute on your back and you can walk out and jump off the same exit he does!
Sean Chuma's BASE skills are at a level that Tom A. and 99% of the BASE community could only ever dream about! I love Chuma to death, but I need to be REAL with myself, he does stuff that I'll never EVER do! But yet I can still go and make a BASE jump with him. People can now pony up a $G and find themselves at the exit points with living legends! I am not pointing the fingers at Sean or Tom, but to those taking courses from them it is important to be real with ourselves and remember our own experience level and even though I'm jumping the same object as Chuma by no means consider myself on his level.
A few months back I found myself wanting to jump a new object and through the BASE boards a semi local to this object presented himself. He communicated to me with confidence his ability to jump the object! When climbing I learned that he had taken Toms course and Toms advanced object avoidance course, his confidence seemed on high! It was as though completing Toms course gave him a right of passage and the greenlight to start jumping more advanced objects! From talking to him I quickly decided that his skill level and confidence level were not on the same page! Some 300 feet up, I convinced him to climb down, comparing it to skiing and that this jump was not the bunny hill. I convinced him that conditions were not right and that we would try again the next day, after sleeping on what I said he ground crewed for me the following night and was glad I talked him down!
Having never done an FJC or taken advanced courses from anyone, I can only speak from my personal accounts and what I have witnessed first hand with my own eyes! To those that are wanting to get into the sport FJC's offer an avenue! I know that Chuma stresses safety on high, and I would highly recommend to anyone wanting to get into BASE to take his course! The information and insight one can gain is PRICELESS! But please remember that yes you can ride the chairlift up with him but we are on completely different slopes (skill level) on the way down! So was Adam doing the right thing? He connected with Tom took his course +1 he connected with Chuma +2. But as most of us know you can do everything right and still have things go wrong! So enjoy this awesome sport but as this thread states be safe out there! Heed the words of Jumpers like Matt and find more forgiving first jumps! Stop Chuma and ask him a question or two, he will be glad to answer, he is an asset to the BASE community. I'm GOININ should have been dead long ago, and yet I'm still here and continue to learn and hope that my next jump won't be my last!

Fly free Adam!

Two people make the same jump.

Regardless of experience/numbers either jumper can have a incident leading to potential death. And any kind of trauma from that incident; numbers/experience don't mean shit. Your survival is not based off of riser turns.

When your ticket is up, it's up. Doesn't matter if you have 1000 or 1. The game is calculated suicide. Anyone thinking different your FOS.

I was trying to stay out of this thread but this is the dumbest comment Ive seen yet or quote I guess. Congratulations carry on.

I think your survival is dependent upon riser turns.

But I'm new, so what the hell do I know anyway?

It sounds like your survival is based off of not having Tom forcing you to jump off of cliffs. I hear he stands behind people and calls them pussies. And if they still dont jump he spontaneously combusts fire from his eyes and shoots lightning bolts from his arse. Unfortunately, the parlor tricks stopped working so he had to convince his pal Elon Musk to put a satellite in orbit emitting a specific frequency that connects to your brain enabling Tom to use fucking satellite mind control to finally get all the pussy skydivers, who just want to impress their skygod friends, to chalk up enough balls to jump.
BSBD

Um... That's ridiculous.
----

 

I'm sorry, I know I am nothing in regards to my experience. I just feel terrible for this loss. He was such a great person and it really makes me sad. We lost a great person...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0

This. Not to mention folks making comments about his approach, thought process, and discipline. He wasn't afraid to walk away. He wanted to learn everything he could and be in the sport for a long time. He focused on developing his skills in an incredibly deliberate manner. Not the least of which was wilderness medical training and jumping with pretty comprehensive kit so that he could give someone who was injured a better shot. With so many retards jumping we have to lose Adam? Bullshit.

It is all about object selection. Some are more forgiving than others. We are adults and we make our own choices. I would personally never jump that cliff.

One aggravating factor in the US is the race toward BASE# because BAS# is not cool enough. If you think your life is worth more than 800$, book a ticket and fly to Italy. You will get your E and yummy pasta as a bonus.

That but also there are massive overhang walls in the US ...
I'm a SE jumper and I'm okay with that ;)

Congratulations indeed.

The you tube video says this is a 450+ cliff. Is that accurate?

What do you honestly think?

Looks much lower to my inexperienced eye

Then it's not 450'. It's not that high to me either but to some it may be. To me it's like half that because I would take that ledge into consideration. That's why we can't rely on height alone as an indicator that something is jumpable for us personally.

Probably 450 to lz, which is a really stupid way to measure.

There's several ledges, I had heard Adam had taken a 2.5 second delay which seems crazy deep for that object.

Its 450 for what its worth. Cliff height is same as over at the bridge, and water level is also the same. You'd free fall to the ground before you hit a cliff during free fall. 450

I've never jumped this cliff and maybe it's the video perspective, but from the looks of it, if this dude had a 180 no amount of riser input would keep you from penduluming into the cliff.

This seems like a terrible terrible first cliff.

Yea - he looks down a bit when he pitches his PC so you get an idea of how far he is from the wall at opening (check the attached screenshot). That aint far... especially considering it's a wide angle lens. Looks to me like he had decent launch too, so you must need a hell of a launch to get any significant distance.

There is no way that cliff is anywhere near that high.
240-260' tops.
http://www.youtube.com/...youtube_gdata_player

well, maybe not, but that is a different cliff.

Not sure what Jawbone has to do with any of this

I have seen a 180 on this cliff from a newer jumper due to a poor exit. Fixed it no problem and landed on the beach. Opened below the ledge also. It comes down to lots of practice and reaction time which is a direct result of practicing off a safe object.. Not just thinking you have 50 jumps, seen a youtube video, and have had good heading performance in previous jumps.

I think on this cliff it also comes down to having your DBS properly dialed in so that you have close to zero forward speed on opening. I would say on this cliff (and any non overhanging object) you have to make some serious ninja stuff to avoid hitting the object with 180 if you have poor DBS setting. So practice is for sure a key for survival but all the practice in the world will not help if your gear is not in order. Would be cool to see the footage from the jump you mentioned, is it available?

That's not how the DBS are tuned for the avoidance course mentioned here. The theory is that they should be tuned so a rear riser turn backs away from the wall while losing less altitude than you would by doing a full stall/recovery with both risers. Zero forward speed would likely result in a stall and no turn exacerbating the problem.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to avoid a cliff strike on a 180 on this cliff, but if that dude in the video had one, I think he'd've (lol) been fucked. It seriously looked like he had 10' of separation from the cliff. I think he'd have swung into that ledge the instant his canopy inflated.

I get that having well tuned DBS would help, but usually on a running exit w/ short delay, the canopy tends to extract and inflate behind the jumper some. Even if it's just 3 feet, that's still going to swing you at least 6' in the opposite direction with zero canopy forward speed.

I still think "newer jumper" and this cliff should not be even anywhere near the same sentence, but what do I know.

Did the jumper in question have custom DBS set?

I have heard about this theory as well a lot but never seen it in practice. I would be very very interested to see a video of the described manouver where the "rear riser turn backs away from the wall while losing less altitude than you would by doing a full stall/recovery with both risers". I guess if this is a proven practice at these courses, there should be plenty of video available?

haha i thought we was talking about a very experienced 1st jump guy with 100+ jumps in 3months at "the bridge" inc courses and advanced courses…of course he would of had DBS…? Right?

I personally have never used DBS in 25years low or high

There is in the course. I personally believe it works because I've seen it work in person and seen all the video. You get personal video of the canopy you take to the course as part of dialing yours in. People taking the course some times opt to use the 2 riser method + the custom dbs, or toggles. IIRC the offheading avoidance mentioned at this cliff was a 2 riser avoidance.

I believe the jumper in the recent incident had custom DBS, but wasn't there.

Potato, Potato

Yes he did. He had also jumped objects other than the bridge. I don't believe this was his first E if my memory is correct.

For the record, I have seen the video of the jump in question and I must say it is very very nice save on a situation which could have easily led to very serious consequences as we all too well know. It does look like that the jumper has more clearance to the wall on opening compared to the other video circulating here (potentially due to higher pull) but nevertheless very good job on saving his ass. If this is a result of the course offered by Tom & co, I would highly recommend this course to anyone around.

I have been asked not to post the link in public so naturally I will not post it here.

word is he shortened brake lines 6" for "custom" DBS.

everyone can start going back and forth with these semantics again about "you must have x amount of forward speed, so that one side of the canopy backs up blah blah blah", unfortunately alot of newer jumpers i meet have absolutely no clue what im talking about when ive asked them if theyve tuned their DBS, let alone how to pop a couple bartacks and refingertrap control lines.

at least do SOMETHING, test it out a bunch of times specific to your weight, check speed and riser turn quickness on no-wind days, etc. especially with the OSP. i had to take almost 5 full inches off my OSP, and now i am happy with opening speed and quickness of riser input.

Word is wrong, then.

Adam was jumping both stock toggle settings and factory DBS at the time of this accident.

He and I had several conversations about it in the weeks before the accident. We had tested his factory DBS and he was able to achieve a rearward sliding (parachutal stall) correction on a single rear riser at that setting.