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Dear readers,

I'm trying to decide on my first Base rig. To whom it may concern, I'm going the FJC way. If you want I'll start a new thread on FJC vs. mentor, as this is not something I want to discuss.

Two questions.

1. I'd like to know more about the mechanics of a hard pull on a velcro rig. The recent Badseed debacle and jewtube flics of experienced jumpers deliberately packing a possible total on a myriad of DP rigs has got me thinking it would be better to get a new velcro rig, such as the Genesis. However, given the nature of velcro, isn't it possible to get a hard pull when you go head down on a regular jump, or head high on the Genesis when inverting the shrivel flap?

In other words: if you pull the shrivel flap in a horizontal way (because of less-than-ideal body position), won't it increase the chances of a PCiT?

2. How would the Genesis fare if you took to terminal? The shrivel flap seems adequately protected on the sides, but because of a lack of decent images, I'm not sure if the top of the shrivel flap is equally protected?

Thank you

You're big now, Email Morpheus.

Not really. That's why the shrivel flap shrivels--to equalize required pull force in various body orientations.



Pretty well, I think. I don't think there's enough data to say for certain, but it looks like the shrivel flap covers do a very good job of protecting the velcro at high airspeed.

I tested best and worst deployment positions with Velcro. 4lbs-18lbs velcro peel for the 4lbs and 18lbs curved shear linear. (between the legs..)
Why wouldyou invert the shrivel flap? Velcro is great for Subterm flippy doos. You should understand rigging thoroughly if you want to take it in or near the terminal range, Just oder an extra flap. I dont know why this is not standard on order. Figure 100 pack jobs per shrivel flap and you will be safer.There is too big of a variation between Fatals on Velcro vs pin rigs to substantiate the common most rigs in use In my opinion.
Take care,
space

read tom's "your first base canopy" article and ask the guy that is running the fjc about what rig you should get.


no.
you got the whole thing wrong.
- reread the thread. to sum it up for you, low jump number dude does aerial and has pc hesitation -> that gives him time to slightly overrotate -> pc is finally pulling when hes in a standup position -> container lock because of closed pin protektor flap -> jumper somehow entangles in bridle while beeing in this position.
so why do you worry that much about it being a pin rig? (think about this chain of events, which events can happen to a jumper by chance, and which can be controlled?)

- i did the pinlock video to show that this is not an issue that is only with one manufacturer, or a certain rig.
the issue is the users not knowing enough about their gear. period. and you can kill yourself also with a velcro rig if you dont know your gear.

- im for sure not trying to show that pin rigs are bad and that velcro is better.

in my opinion nowadays velcro is for experienced jumpers that really know why they want one over a pin rig.

get the right 2 pin rig for a beginner, learn to know your gear, use your brain, and you can reduce this pinlock issue pretty much to ZERO.

Should I really settle for "pretty much" when the outcome is death?

Potential new jumpers are taught to do their research. There are a number of inexplicable totals on the list, all of them on pin rigs, some of them PCiT due to a possible/probable pin lock. Usually there's some heated debate involving screencaps or the incrowd discussing the killvid they were allowed to see and the outcome will be that the jumper made some sort of unfortunate mistake (held the PC too long, was in a less-than-ideal position, the stars were not properly alligned) and everybody is reassured it just some case of the black death that could have been avoided.

So please inform me (honest question) why a pin rig is the better choice. If a velcro rig is in top condition, is it really such an issue if you track it for five seconds?

On a side note: the BFL has every possible piece of information on there, but there doesn't seem to be a list of which specific rig/canopy was used. What if BrandX shows up more than BrandZ? Wouldn't that be something you would want to know?

With respect,
T

I got a two pin rig as that's what was suggested in much of the advice I got/read. However, it's important that you're comfortable with the gear you're going to jump.
If you're worried that much it sounds like you should get a velcro rig. :)
Personally I like the idea of a velcro rig a lot - for all the reasons you've mentioned.

if thats not enough for you, dont get into base. there is no 100% solution. nowhere. never. everything is a tradeoff.

regarding my post, the sentence i wrote initially didnt have the "pretty much", i added it because not all of those rigs the likelyhood of this to happen is the same and with some the issue can be completely resolved, while with others there still is this freak-accident chance even if prepared correctly.
but to put this out here again, with the right rig, and the right jump preperation, this is not going to happen. (but maybe something else is more likely to happen. as an example, so opening the pin protektor flap and standing up and priming the pins is going to reduce risk to nil while it will obviously highten the risk that you unintentionally open the rig by snagging the exposed parts somewhere on exit)


jep, thats right. and using google, the forum search here, manuals from manufactureres, you could have found out what a shrivel flap is and what it does without posting your question here. bu no offence, i can see this beeing a big question mark when you never seen a velcro rig in real live.


yes, there are quite a few totals on the list, but im not sure on which ones you are referring to (#?). there are only a few where this pinlock issue could have played a role, and it is highly speculative i suppose.

since velcro rigs got out of fashion quite some time ago (that was before my time), and pretty much every terminal base jump and i suppose most of the other base jumps as well, are made with pin rigs, there is no real statistical value in the fact that most fatalities happened with pin rigs. pins just became the standard quite some time ago.

again, the video initially was made because i felt that some people rather throw dirt at manufacturers and other jumpers than just taking their own rig out of the closet and try if this could happen with their rig also.

just give me your velcro rig and some time and i will find something to scare you.
what the heck, post the name of a random piece of equipment here, and someone will post you a story/picture/video of something that can go wrong with it or even someone getting hurt because of it. theres a story about a guy in my hometown that slipped in his toillet and fell on the toilet brush with his head and lost an eye. as said, there is no 100% solution to prevent this, unless you remove all toilet brushes from your home. but still this is something that could happen to you, by chance (although small) but it is not impossible, youre gonna use a toilet that has a toilet brush sooner or later again. (also look at the downside of not using a toilet brush anymore)


there are some accidents where you can find an event in the chain of events that led to the accident that was within the jumpers control and could have been prevented. and it is good to analyse it and find this event so you can prevent doing the same mistake.

but there are still some of those "getting struck by lightning" events. and base has a quite high potential for those...
if you participate in this sport you are running around in a thunderstorm while other just stay at home.
keep in mind your going to jump off something and put yourself in a 99.998% fatal situation (without a parachute) for fun and rely on 60 m² of f111, that you throw out in fast moving air together with 100m of lines which then suddenly resembles an airfoil that pulls your ass out of this otherwise unsurvivable situation.

and when talking about the discussions. yes, some people close their eyes from this and desperately search for some mistake in the incident that they would not make to make them feel safe.

aside the above, were all still humans and we make mistakes. we all fuck up sometimes, and no one is 100% save of not making a mistake he already knew about.
im pretty sure every jumper that has been in this for a longer time had some close call where he just got out of it because of luck. me included.


although i owe one, i would not consider myself as experienced with those since im just "too young".
the biggest issue was/is the higher risk of a premature that gets higher with the more the velcro is worn out. (tracy please dont kick my ass yet, read further)
if the velcro is kept in good condition this risk is small, new velcros with the tuck under style shrivel flaps are really good and account for this issue and make it less likely.
i see the biggest problem in this again on the human side, people are generally lazy and using a pin rig just has one maintanence part less.

all the fubar brake mainenance parts ive seen (lines, velcros, etc) affirm me in my position that velcros for terminal are not for every jumper and i think we would see a lot more prematures if pin rigs would have not replaced them in this field.


first off, there is no point in adding this if this part of equipment did not play a role in the incident. if the piece of equipment played a role there is most likely a detailed description of what went wrong (see #171 for example). it also has no statistical value since the most widespread equipment would of course show up more times that less common stuff. which could lead to misconceptions like if i jump a velcro rig im safer than others because there have been less fatalities involving velcros.

take care!
ciao!
hirschi

Thank you very much for the elaborate, nuanced answer.

Do me one last favor and check your PM.