Basejumper.com - archive

i'd like to start by saying that i almost never post on here. I read the threads daily, and spend a lot of time in the forums, but never have had something I felt so strongly about that i needed to put it out to the whole community.

This is something that i felt strongly about so i'm putting it out there. This isn't to blow up anyone's spot, or to make enemies, or to make anyone upset. This is simply to warn people about something i saw that i felt was major cause for concern...

I was at the Perrine this weekend, as i try to get there at least once a year, and i saw a couple people in their first jump course fly straight into the water without even touching their toggles.

When we later went for another jump on the bridge, we saw this whole FJC group on the bridge getting ready for more jumps. My friend whom i was with asked "who just went in the water?". One girl told us it was her. After a series of questions we then found out it was her very first BASE jump and that she had only 2 skydives prior. i have to assume both skydives were tandems, as she admitted she had no canopy experience and her FJC instructor told her to fly straight into the water without touching the toggles.

Obviously we all know there's also a giant row of trees that she had no way to navigate around if she flew into them, and to top it off, she landed downwind into the water so she did not even have the skills to turn a 180 into the wind. So naturally my friend's next comment was that this is a very serious sport, it can kill you, and that she shouldn't be on the bridge until she learns more and gets more experience. I must agree with my friend. While all this is happening the FJC instructor turns to my buddy and says "what's the problem, she was doing a direct bag deployment, there's nothing wrong with that".

A few seconds later he sends one of his students off handheld. That student immediately has both toggles fire on opening. The FJC coach then turns to the 4 or 5 remaining students on the bridge and says to them "did any of you check that his toggles were stowed?!". My friend looked right back at the instructor and responds, "shouldn't YOU be the one checking this".

The situation continued from there. However, you get the point and there's more than enough details here to show that this should be cause for concern. If this is all happening right in front of us, in a 5 minute period... One can only wonder what else is transpiring during the rest of the course.

So my warning... There's plenty of great FJC courses in Twin. Go to Sean Chuma, Tom Aiello, Jimmy and Marta, etc. Based on the above info, if you hear of anyone taking Mark Hewitt's course, i encourage you to tell whoever your friend is to not take his course.

If FJC courses are taught on the bridge regularly to people that have 2 tandem skydives, and literally don't know what a toggle is, people will get seriously hurt. The bridge as we know it, which we all hold so dear to our hearts will be at risk for us all. I'm well aware it's a self regulated sport and everyone is free to do as they'd like blah blah blah, but it's also the responsibility of educated people in the sport to inform the uneducated people before they make decisions. The people in Mark's course were clearly NOT informed and had no idea the risks they were taking or what they'd gotten themselves into.

I'm sure i'll get a lot of hate for this but if one person takes someone's course other than Mark's as a result of this post, and they don't break themselves as a result, i'll feel justified in making this post regardless of all the hate.

was the chick hot?...if so thats the problem. big tits vs big jump numbers. big tits always win.

I dont think you should get any hate for it, if Mark is teaching people with 2 skydives then people should know about it. Because that is fucking stupid

Big tits on a dead bird walking! Tits on a bull unless you like 'em dead?

+ 1000

I don't write often here, and only have 50 BJ, and took my course at the perrine bridge...this spot is priceless,and shoould be well protected against stupidity...

The other courses would not accept someone like this so they go to who will teach them. This guy should not be someone to running courses obviously. Miles is a good person to go to with minimal or no experience. If people decide to jump they are going to do it might as well learn from somebody qualified.

Thus speaks a charter member of the New Ignorati...

Mark Hewitt is BASE 46. Along with that, he:
• Invented the line mod.
• Founded Vertigo, AKA Apex
• Designed the first pin-closed BASE rig.
• Was the first person in the world to make 1,000 BASE jumps.
• Has thousands of AFF training dives.
• Has thousands of tandem training dives.
• Has thousands of coaching dives.
• Trained the royal families and elite special operations forces of several Middle East countries long before Skydive Dubai was even a flicker in a young sheikh's imagination.

That is a partial list of his accomplishments over 13,000+ jumps and 30+ years of parachuting.

No disrespect to Miles or any of the other instructors mentioned on this thread, but none of them come remotely close to Mark's training knowledge and experience.

Disagree with the "qualifications" he requires of his customers for his first jump course if you want, but Mark has forgotten more about BASE than you will learn if you live to be 100, and if in his judgment the people he's putting off the bridge can handle it, then you can take that to the bank.

And get a clue about the real threat to the bridge, which is the continuing and accelerating rate of "arbitrary challenge" incidents involving "experienced" jumpers such as the idiot load a couple of weeks ago that resulted in two critical injuries that could easily have become fatalities.

That breed of yayhoo represents a much greater risk to bridge access than does Mark Hewitt's whuffo-focused FJC.


44

totally agree with Robin. anybody can fly straight into the river with a PCA of this bridge. you literally have to do nothing other than step off. now why somebody would want to do that with their time is another question...

No disrespect to any of the OG BASE jumpers here...I'm very freshly minted and know my place. That said, I think any adult sense of reason would suggest that putting the person described above off the bridge is highly risky at best, and wildly irresponsible at worst.

If she had a 90 right and flew into the cliff and a lawsuit was in the works...would we be looking at this in the same casual manner?

I don't have the rank to pass judgment on anyone here, but I do think that Dave's concerns are fair and he did the right thing by airing them out.

Good on you buddy.

I think the hate you will get, and might already be getting, will be because you are attacking someone, a pioneer in the the sport, without knowing who that person is. You also, presumably, don't know the intentions of the jumpers themselves. They could only be in it for the one time weekend jumps and will never do any other jumps. Jumps at the Perrine are like an extreme amusement park ride for many you-tube watchers now and of course money talks in today's society as well.
I'm not saying I agree with what you allege Mark is doing but other FJC instructors are doing things in their FJC's that I don't necessarily agree with(TARDS, etc.) but that doesn't mean that the overall information, how they go about teaching, the people they allow in the course, those peoples intentions, etc., are wrong and I should be the judge of them.

I understand your concern but you have to take into consideration that you may not have all the information to make a proper judgement call in this or any situation where you are an outside party looking in and only seeing a snippit of the actual situation.

This alone is worth a discussion. I'd suggest that allowing someone to buy their way into a risk activity that they aren't prepared for and don't fully understand is ethically questionable. I'm not suggesting that we need to protect people from themselves, but we do need to protect BASE from those who don't love it the same way we do.

If one of these one-time adventure seekers got seriously hurt, would they think about the future of BASE before filing a lawsuit? If they were paralyzed for life would they stand up and take responsibility for their own actions and protect the bridge? Or would they seek out money and bring negative attention to BASE, to the bridge, and to all of us?

Any real BASE jumper understands the ethics: Don't make it harder for other people to jump in the future. Someone who pays to get tossed off the bridge a couple of times will not hold themselves to the same ethical standards that I hope the rest of us abide by.

By extension, one could argue that an experienced jumper who facilitates these actions is acting in an ethical gray area, at best.

As stated above, we may not have all the puzzle pieces here. I hope that's the case. But even if this discussion is theoretical I think it's worth having.

We are our own gatekeepers. I think all of you experienced jumpers should be looking at us new guys with a bit of skepticism and making us prove that we're willing and able to protect the future of BASE.

Every thing you say about him is true. But the most salient is that he has FROGOTEN more about base then some of us have ever known. He's very old school. He helped to define the old school. And things like this have been done before. In fact on a number of occasions. It's not with out precedent. But I think we can all agree that it's not a smart idea. Sooner or later we have all gotten a wild hair up our ass and done something which was... not bright. Some of us have even survived to tell stories about it. I think this falls into that category. I wasn't there, you weren't there, and even the poster was just a witness and has no real idea how this came about. I think it's an excellent negative example of what not to do but I'm in no position to throw stones.

I also might point out that there is another variable in the puzzle. There is also the student. I've seem more then one person go forwards and do things that I specifically told them was a bad idea. And when I say some thing is a bad idea... So I'm not prepared to lay it all on marks head.

So go forth and tell this story around the bon fire over beer. Hopefully this will not become the norm but don't be surprised the next time you hear a story like this. It lost the shock value for me after about the tenth such incident.

Lee

You're right that it is something that should be discussed but in reality I think the cat is out of the bag with the many, many videos of just how "easy" it is to make a jump at the Perrine. That coupled with societies instant gratification syndrome and it's infatuation with so called money, will create a niche where if you have the cash there will always be someone willing to take it and throw you off an "easy" object.

There was just a video linked in these forums that had a guy doing his amusement park BASE jumps from one of the OP's "qualified" FJC's. Why didn't the OP step up and say something about that incident?

It certainly is a tough call. I guess we should also look at the increase of under qualified jumpers taking friends to the Perrine instead of insisting on them going to a FJC to start.

Only we can fill that niche. So my proposal is, don't be that guy.

Don't let them pay you for guidance, don't sell them gear, don't be any part of it. At least that way WHEN something happens you can say, "I had no part in it and the active BASE community does not approve of this behavior." That argument is tough to make if you've accepted payment for services rendered.

The sport has given so much to so many of us. The least we can do is choose to protect it rather than breaking well-established ethical guidelines to make a quick buck.

I hear ya.
Doesn't being THAT guy also include not posting all of your jumps on you-tube and facebook? That niche is being exploited by 90% of jumpers today and it only seems to exacerbate the problems. It's where all of these people get the idea that BASE is something for them.

Yeah, that's a valid point as well.

Problem is, BASE isn't profitable for most of us. You can be financially rich or lifestyle rich, but it's hard to do both.

I don't think anyone of us can look to someone else and say, "don't do that." All we can do is make good decisions and lead by example, others will follow.

I read something about "do onto others..." once. Maybe that applies here. =)

Totally off topic but as I´m kind of interested in the evolution of our sport and in the statistics, I would be very interested to know when (year or even approximate year) he made his 1000th BASE jump.

None of the things on that long list of achievements have any thing to do with what is being discussed. Absolutely none of that justifies negligent instruction or willful disregard for students. Nothing on that list exempts him from being capable of providing poor instruction to people who should not be there in the first place...

1992-1993 IIRC


44

I thought Slim and Mario did that in 2001. Or slim was very close, got hurt, and Mario made it first.

Serious? He got one thousend basejumps in 92-93? Who was 2nd?

Sorry, but they do because you base your assertions and conclusions upon a single information source of unknown credibility and accuracy who made charges about an individual with 13,000+ jumps, 30+ years experience, at least half of which has been spent teaching people all over the world to skydive and base jump.

Nothing in your list of assertions and conclusions has been confirmed and/or validated in any way as anything other than supposition, rumor and/or misunderstanding precipitated by the reported circumstances of the information gathering.

Everything I listed is documented, and many-times-validated historical fact.

Next!


44

Sorry, I lied.

I remembered him hitting 1,000 in 92-93 but what I was remembering is that each jump he made in 92-93 was "a new world record" because at that time, he had more than anyone else by a wide margin.

Here are two 1993 logbook entries... Mark had "only" 650 BASE jumps partway through 1993. He didn't hit 1,000 until a while after that...


44

Ah i got it!!

The problem here is Mark Hewitt doesn't come up on theTube

And I thought Slim was going to make it in 2001, but he cliff striked while we filming in Eikesdalen, and Mario made 1 000, and i thought he said he was the first to reach that number.

I am not asserting anything. Did not agree or disagree w/ the op.

His status does not justify negligent instruction is the point, and it does not make him immune from the capability. I have seen many cases of well regarded manufactures, jumpers etc being completely irresponsible despite long histories and experience.

I was at the bridge and personally saw both of these jumps as well as another student who landed in the trees I do not know if it was his student or not.

I just want to know what happened to the old days of having a mentor and a crew while learning to jump. Seems the only requirement these days is cash regardless of who the teacher is.

I remember applying for Toms free death camp course which required you have quite a lot of skydiving experience and provide references of people you knew in the BASE world. (ps I was rejected). I put in my time as GC and borrowed some gear and eventually was jumping on my own.

The people that were learning with low jump numbers at that time were getting taught by their friends who then were going back to their local objects and continuing the mentorship, no matter how informal. Now its take the money from a stranger, teach them how to pack and jump off a bridge, and wish them good luck and hope they dont kill themselves when they get back home. One of the many reasons I wont teach anyone outside of direct family.

I believe Earl Redfern was actually 2nd. Then Mario, and then Slim. I remember talking to Slim when he made his 1000th jump, and that was the order he gave me in that conversation.

Couldn't agree more. Ive only brought a couple of people into this sport, all of whom were close friends before we ever shared an exit point. I personally don't know how anyone can safely learn to base jump without active mentoring from an experienced jumper.

There goes every BASE course in existence.

I don't have an opinion on the thread topic, but thought it would be fun to let everyone know that Mark Hewitt gave me and few friends a 2-3 hour BASE seminar (classroom training only) in 1993. I still have the video somewhere.

This is standard practice and totally OK.

nothing wrong with downwind into the water. In fact it may be safer to avoid doing a 180 degree turn if you really do not know how to steer properly.

Guys (everyone, not just robinheid), I know I'm new here, hence why I'm hoping to find out more.

What defines a good FJC? I would assume Miles FJC is less comprehensive than Tom's because of the lower experience requirement.

As someone with low jump numbers, it's extremely tempting to go for Mark/Miles course; yes, more jumps definitely helps, but I would assume Mark/Miles would have their courses as more beginner level. At what point is a coach being irresponsible? At what point am I being irresponsible to myself?

edit: I'm obviously not going to rush into things as BASE is dangerous. I'm just acknowledging the temptation of becoming a 'BASE jumper' after just a few skydives is extremely tempting

Ultimately this is all just what I think about it, but I think most people will agree that it rings pretty true.

As far as learning methods go:

mentor > comprehensive FJC > most FJC > any FJC > deathcamp > youtube learning

Anything where you're getting advice as you evolve as a jumper and progress in the sport from a consistent, experienced (a.k.a. not a 50 or 100-jump wonder) source is best, especially if they jump with you and teach you hands-on. (i.e. mentorship) Ideally you shouldn't be jumping alone or making jump decisions alone until you've gotten about 50 jumps AND all/most object types and deployment methods under your belt.

Next is a course that can teach you not just how to PCA/Hand held/Stowed/Unpacked etc, and not even one that teaches you aerials (which I don't think a FJC should cover), but one that teaches you how to make better decisions, scares you and makes you realize the stupid decision you're making and the dangerous nature of the sport, and teaches you how to be a better jumper when you go home. That means covering ethics so you're not like the whistler cable car guy, or posting all your illegal jumps all over youtube like most new jumpers like to do. Also, that means teaching you about object types, wind conditions, and a lot more stuff that just how to jump the bridge. It teaches you to leave no trace, set DBS for your bodyweight, use take-away static line systems, do some minor rigging with your gear (that you should already know) but in case you didn't know. It's too much to just explain here. A good course doesn't make you perfect at decision-making, but hopefully it made you better. And you should really still have a mentor after one of these "good courses."

An average FJC just teaches you to be a bridge jumper. That's it. It doesn't make you a BASE jumper. If you're lucky, they'll make you do a floater and practice object avoidance. You may learn all deployment methods and think you are invincible, and you might be able to get away with jumping other stuff, but it doesn't mean you're really ready. You should still have a mentor.

I've heard of FJC's where people did like 5 jumps and that was the course, with pretty much no instruction except how to hold a hand held and how much delay the bridge will allow. Those sound pretty bad...

Lastly, there is deathcamping which keeps you alive WHILE you're jumping the bridge... after that it's all on you. You probably can't get a mentor, thus you deathcamped yourself by paying someone enough money to put up with you. You shouldn't have done this, but now that you have, you should really find a mentor before you do anything else... even more bridge jumps.

Of course, there is also "I saw it on youtube," but I of course think that is a good way to die... that's it.

Oh, and you really are cheating yourself to go to a potentially "less responsible" mentor or FJC coach, whoever that may be. It's worth getting the best teacher, since it is your life you'll be risking. All FJC teach you like you know nothing and go from the ground up if they're covering all the bases like they should, so the starting point and reference points along the way will be the same. It's how much you can take away to actually be a BASE jumper and not just a bridge jumper that really makes an impact in the definition of a "good course."

If you have a mentor, they should know what skills you have/need in your development and that will ultimately be the best/most personally tailored learning experience.

And putting an extra 20-50 skydives in to make sure you have the best canopy skills you can is beyond worth it. I've had to hit LZs that I could NOT miss before (either due to offheadings or stupid hard jumps), and I was thankful each time for every extra ounce of practice I put in. Can you do a perfect flat turn at will? Have you had someone experienced film you/watch you do flat turns to make sure you're doing them well? How low above the ground can you initiate a toggle whip without grounding out on a canopy your size for BASE? Can you land with almost no flare in completely buried deep brakes if you have to?

And as far as mentoring vs. FJC in general, do you want someone who's obligated to teach you, or someone who willing volunteers their time to teach you because they like you and respect you? Who do you think cares about you, versus who cares about your money?

Thanks a lot for the very comprehensive reply, it really explains a lot in terms of instructor responsibility and student learning.

I personally believe that an FJC should minimally set you on the right track for learning, in other words train you to be a BASE jumper and not a bridge jumper.

Nonetheless, could death camps be compared to tandems, where you 'sample' the experience and judge if it's for you?

Death camps aren't good for anything in my opinion... if you wanna see if it's for you "like a tandem" do tandembase

Or better yet, do a balloon jump. Cheaper, less sketchy, and you can take it all the way to terminal instead of taking a tandem PCA.

Come to think of it, what's the point of a death camp when you can go for the 6-8 hour workshop and go bridge day?

And if it looks like a tough landing, land a little short in the water you dry faster than you heal... it's a pretty safe (not that any jump is safe) place to do a "tadem-like" test to see if BASE is for you.

Interesting the lack of input from Tom on this one; seems he has the most to lose if the Bridge gets banned. Tom?

True!

How I wish I was in US and not Australia

I would think that:

1) There's information that Tom is privy to and we aren't
2) It's a pretty controversial issue involving a 'rival' coach

Maybe not the best PR to get involved, though I'm sure he's watching

Not if you don't skydive.

It's become very popular lately to flippantly throw out the magical " 1,000 jumps " as a measure of a jumpers experience. But unless someone logs their jumps they have no idea of how many they have, or what it takes to complete 1000 BASE jumps.

I very much doubt that Mark has 1000 BASE jumps, but that no way diminishes his contributions to the sport, or his experience.

When I last jumped with Mark he was likely the most experienced jumper in the World and had an estimated 700 jumps, but he dropped out of the sport and has only recently returned in full force.

I think it's great when people say " I don't log, because numbers aren't why I jump,.. " Great!!! but then please don't flippantly throw out the "...but I must have around a 1000 " Crap.

Mario had over 1000 when he quit logging, but he never knew how many he actually had and he was super active so the numbers 1500 and 2000 have been just tossed out there.

Robin has more years in the sport than almost anyone, some amazing firsts, many quality jumps, but look at his numbers and you will be surprised.

Everyone and his brother has a 1000 jumps today, but rarely a logbook to support that claim.

Regards,B.

No he didn't, that's just pure Bullshit!!! and while we are on the subject he did design and build the Sorcerer but he walked away from Vertigo almost as soon as he and Marta started the business, Marta is responsible for Vertigo's continuation and morphing with Apex, it was she and Mario who were the reason the company existed and was successful,

Just a little lesson in BASE history,
Regards, B.

Probably all true and 1000 jumps doesn't seem to be a big deal anymore either. Probably took a lot longer in the past because they had to find the jumps and figure them out.
Now it's different I'm new to this sport about three years and my logbook had over 600 jumps.

It took a long time to get 1000 back then because:

1)There were fewer known legal sites
2)There were very few people getting paid to jump
3)There was hardly anyone doing it full time
4)There were almost zero legal events
5)Most jumps were bandit jumps
6)The industry could only support a few people
7)etc..

It would be interesting to know if anyone has 1000 bandit jumps

You have to be the closest of anyone I've met.

DTM must be close.

this seems like as good a thread as any to point out to you all that THIS is the site you're on.

enjoy.

Hey Dave,
First of all, why didn't you have the balls to come discuss things with me? You didn't say a word with me, and I am accessible to everyone. All of your facts are inaccurate, every one of them. Yet you can be some little weasel by going behind my back and throwing me under the buss. I am not going to explain myself to you, online, only face to face! I don't go on here at all, because of these self appointed cowardly heroes with attitudes far bigger than their talent, with opinions. Furthermore, it was very unprofessional for your friend Matt Blank, to engage in any kind of discussion with my students, when they are focusing for their jump, at the exit point. Us old timers, and professionals, discuss things 1 on 1, as Men, not in front of students! Let alone trying to get their phone number, hey baby, I will teach you..... Grow a backbone you hero! My students will tell their side of the story after their 3 day basejuper.com probation period.

I don't really care about this thread's content and just came here to see Blitzkrieg's clicky.

But JT's right -- land in water downwind so your canopy overflies you, and you're less likely to get tangled/drowned in your shit. Telling a student to do a 180 (having never turned a canopy before) and land in water into the wind (so the canopy drapes over them like a wet blanket) would be the incorrect thing to advise.

Back to your regularly scheduled poo slinging.

I find much humor (or humour) in that.

after reading all of this post, I absolutely love your response.
I personally don't know jack shit of what did or did not happen, but the way you answered is spot on.

someone has a problem, talk to the person you have an issue with, not blast them on the internet.

LOL. Where did you find these students, the Walmart parking lot?

We met them climbing a cliff that we were jumping. My bad, it didn't get posted it on youtube

I'm not close... easily a few hundred away.

I would think Cincybase is close.

I was gonna say the same.... Def over 1k jumps but lots of Moab jumps in there too... Cincy base is a stud! (With a logbook)

Mark, i understand why you took this as a personal attack but it wasn't at all. The reason i didn't approach you with this is very simply because this wasn't directed at you. It was meant for the people potentially taking your course, and was a warning to them to look at other options, and make sure to be fully informed before making a BASE jump. You can call me a liar all you'd like, but you know that Chelsea only had 2 skydives, and you also know the next guy had a toggle fire and you're response was to ask your students if they checked his toggles. This was the talk of the night at the bridge and everyone was disturbed by it, so i know i'm not the only one that heard and saw this stuff.

The people debating over over weather to land upwind or downwind into the water are missing the point completely. They shouldn't have been jumping AT ALL if they don't have the skills to turn a canopy around on a 486 ft object with a huge line of trees, steal behind them to the left & right, and cliffs to the left and right. If they don't have the skills for a simple 180 turn off of a 486 ft bridge, they will get seriously hurt if they had any off heading at all and didn't land in the water, thus they should not be enabled to take an FJC yet, even if the coach has 1,000 jumps. they should go do some skydiving first (not tandems). Tandems don't give you any real canopy time. The same weekend this was happening I know Chuma turned away someone that had 70 skydives. When did people on this thread start to think it was ok for FJC's to be given to people with 2 tandem skydives? Chuma wasn't thinking with his wallet, he was thinking about the safety of the person that called him.

Matt may have not done the most polite thing by calling this all out in front of the students, but i'm proud of him for doing what he did. If he didn't tell these students what was wrong with that situation right then and there, no one would have prior to the jump and that would have been unfair to those students to jump without knowing any real facts. When Matt mentioned to the girl that people have drowned in a parachute in shallower waters, she looked at him completely confused about it. She clearly hadn't been informed that this was even a risk, along with all the other risks that were clearly not known to her. I love that Matt cared enough to tell these kids what they were doing is no joke and they could die. He cares, plain and simple. He had nothing to personally gain from having this conversation, except making an enemy out of a legend in the sport. I think that took a lot of courage and Matt should be proud to be able to say that he values safety over social status.

For all of you defending this type of FJC, ask yourself if you would let your daughter or son take this FJC vs. one of the ones that requires actual experience and training. If the answer is this one, you should not be allowed to have kids. If you already have kids, they should be taken away from you because you clearly don't care for their safety or livelihood.

Lastly, I'm sure Mark is a great guy. I've heard really good things about him as a jumper and as a pioneer in the sport. I'm sure all of that is true. For that i have nothing but respect for him. However, the amount of jumps he has, his jump number, and what he's contributed to the technology of the sport is as relevant to this thread as the size of my penis. So instead of focusing on my penis size, and Mark's resume as a jumper... Focus on his resume as an FJC coach which was the only point i was making... if you respect this sport and the lives of your friends, you'll recommend a different FJC coach.

That's all. I'm not going to respond again as I didn't post this thread for drama. I'm in it because i hold BASE very close to my heart and i want to see everyone live happy, healthy and fun lives. I want to see the sport and the safety stats to continue to progress, not digress. I hope you all have the same goal.

Thanks
Ds

I think we're done here.

Everyone who has something to say seems to have said their piece, and I'm not interested in the discussion devolving into name calling from newly registered accounts.