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Got my hands on one of these in new condition.

I've personally never had a problem with trees, but there are certainly instances that having one of these could have helped others.

My Warlock has an accessible space between the back and the pack tray, which this might fit in. Stuck in tree? Whip this baby out.

If I wanted to get fancy, I could integrate it into the rig, by creating an opening for the webbing to pass through, and rig a small outside stash pocket to hold the anchoring end and the descender. Or, attaching some straps to the kit so that it can be worn underneath the rig, rather than packing it in underneath the pack tray. Hm, I think I like that idea the best so far. (edit to add: it has snaps on the corners too. could just install snaps on the rig for it to mate to)

I'm thinking the descender might clip onto the large ring at a shoulder. A symmetrical hard point would be preferable, but without a reinforced chest strap I'm not sure where that's going to come from.

Does anyone have any experience using or installing these? Other ideas?

The below link is to a similar system from the civilian market that includes an integrated harness. Since in BASE you'd already have a harness all you'd really need would be the 5mm cord, the micro-descending device, and some way of securing that to your harness, like a small runner or two and one micro carabiner. I think you could get away with less than 80+ feet of cord as well. It might not be that difficult to carry. I really can't see myself ever jumping with something like this, but it's still pretty neat.

http://www.cbknot.com/new-england-micro-rappel-system/

Edited to add: I think weight and the resulting impact on wing-loading would be more of an issue than space to carry a system such as this. If one were serious about doing so, presumably they have a particular object(s) in mind, like some of the Es out in the PNW surrounded by tall trees. In that case you could give yourself just enough cord based on the height of the trees where you expect to maybe need it, keeping bulk and weight to a minimum, while allowing for self-rescue.

Interesting system. At that price tag, i should probably start making them and selling em.

5mm, 5 kN-rated cord looks like it weight about half as much, meter-for-meter, as the webbing does. and you could probably fit 100' somewhere in your rig without too much inconvenience. Webbing is probably twice as strong though.

I guess the lightest setup could be the 5mm cord and a locking carabiner... maybe you could use a munter to lower off without a friction device. that sounds terrifying.

(anyone done it?)

I wonder if you could get away with like 1500# or 2000# spectra. Its very inexpensive from CSR braids, is light, and relatively small diameter. I could easily fit 100' in my front pocket. If not spectra, something like HMA, Vectran etc may work as well? Just thinking out loud, could be a disaster too. I've never tried to rappel off dental floss before.

I already have rappelled down a tree with 3 mm cord rated 1,9 kn and a carabiner.
A well fed Brit got down from a tree under High Nose with that 3 mm cord also. At first he rejected the flimsy 3mm cord, but after two guys from Air Glaciers appeared with no rope at all, he took the chances with the 3mm.
The 3mm cord is not destined to break your fall, but to secure you in the tree and to lower you very carefully and very slowly.

I always have proper climbing equipment, especially for tree rescues in my car, but that is of no use if you cannot reach your car.
I now have 20m of 3mm, Spectra cord , 950 daN (kg), weight 0,46 kg/100m and a small light weight carabiner on my rig. That fits perfectly in a legpouch together with a knife and some bandages.

My thoughts are:
You will not take equipment with you regularly, if it is too cumbersome.
Equipment is of no use, if you feel uncomfortable carrying/wearing it – it just may be the cause for an accident.

http://www.towmeup.com/shop/product/tree-self-rescue-kit-complete/
No connection with the company, been meaning to get one for my pg.

http://www.caves.org/.../49/cthsc/cthsc.html

Good old nylon seems to hold up pretty well. granted it looks like they used 7mm.

Some of the high-tensile strength cordage like spectra loses its integrity very quickly if subject to any heat or shock loading. A property of spectra is If you shock load spectra once, it is basically useless because it will fail at an unpredictably low strength the next time it is shock loaded. Even a one-time only kit might be subject to this if you slipped and dumped your weight on the line during setup or something. but if could avoid doing that, it's pretty lightweight strong stuff. Maybe that shouldn't stop you from considering it, but it's definitely something to be aware of.

I have taken a 10 foot vertical fall onto a spectra loop tied with a triple-fishermans, (before I knew better). It held as advertised, but definitely was ruined.

You'd also have to think about how you are affixing it to your anchor point. If you anchored it with a figure-8 follow-thru around a tree branch or your risers, you could take a big penalty in breaking strength.

All that aside, 2 or 3mm cord would be pretty easy to stash.

Talking to climbers, I am hearing that using 5mm nylon is more common than I thought, particularly amongst soloists. That's assuming they double it up though.

Thats a PLD or "personal lowering device". I used to install and maintain those while I was in the Air Force. The "descender" was stowed in a zip up pocket which was tacked on to the front of the harness. The "webbing kit" was tacked on the rear of the harness and rested between the wearers back and harness. We were required to put teflon tape around the lower horizontal bar on the "descender" to increase friction. Apparently a few people descended a little quicker than planned without the tape.
Also, I have friends who are still in, and have access to all of the information available on these things. I could have someone snap a few pictures of the Technical Order which has installation instructions.

I be used a Munter hitch several times. Never had a problem...

Using the following two links, I built my own set-up for use in paragliding being as we have lots of 100'-130' tall trees here in the PNW. I basically followed the first link and modified the wrap on the carabiner to incorporate a munter hitch (as shown on the commercial device on the second link). I also used 150' of 4mm perlon.

Remember to test out the set-up at least once at low level before needing it in a high stress situation.

http://www.alpenglow.org/...ree-self-rescue.html

http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/treeres.php

Good links. I think the next step is a case of beer and a testing session

thanks all

If you are using a thin rope it can slip through many belay devices and even carabiners. Use this knot http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ulTTrhfCvs it's called the monster munter hitch and has more friction than the munter hitch.

I have safely and easily descended 100 ft on military para cord, or 550 cord.
I'm a pretty big guy, and was carrying extra equipment at the time
With a minimum rating of 249 kg, its cheap, super lightweight, and reasonably durable considering how light it is.
On sharp rocks it would likely shear when weighted, but considering you would likely be descending past the offending sharp edge on your way down, you could probably cover it with something (a sock?)
I used a clip gate crab and a munter hitch with at least 5 wraps and a glove(its slipery shit), but could have easily made do with a sleeve etc.
I found after the 3rd decent on the same cord, it was worn past an acceptable level, so if you are getting down form the same tree/cliff more than 3 times probably use something else.
Its my choice of last resort self rescue equipment.

at my college there was a poor-judgement-kind-of-guy who tried to dulfersitz out a 5th floor window on 550 cord. after he bricked in someone's dorm door as a prank. he did it from the inside. best and the brightest they say... that did not end well.

i am going to test out a bunch of super thin cord in a few weeks, i will try some 550 too. will report back. If anyone is in New Hampshire and wants to join me in early May, send a PM.

Now this is an awesome idea and gives better use of the leg pouches. I think I'll sew some pouches onto my rig just for this purpose.(as well as the first aid)

Anyone know of a decent, small, lightweight figure 8 descender?

i built this little DIY-emergency-tree-rescue-bag; i've used:

-20m of 4mm rope, rated at 3.5kN
-1.2m sling, rated at 22kN
-3 HMS-carabiners (you can never have enough of those! )
-EXPED zip pack UL, xs

this is an absolute emergency-kit; say you're a 70kg's jumper and you fall only one meter into it, you're already at the rated strength of the rope used, IF YOU USE IT DOUBLED.

in my opinion, that should suffice for a 10m tree. if your tree is any taller than that, use the rope to lower another carabiner so somebody can clip in a proper rope to belay you, possibly use the sling to get a bit more of a comfy seat so you dont end up with harness trauma if help isnt available within useful time.

DO NOT USE THIS AS A SINGLE-ROPE!!!

also, it's very important that you stuff your rope into the bag; you close it so that your rope has just enough room to slip. then start stuffing it in, this way you can just pull it out and have no mess like when you roll it, also, you'll have way more room that way. if it gets a little cramped, grip your bag and squeeze from the opening down.

-i put this in the legpocket of my tracking-suit, i can pull it out on the outside carabiner and clip it onto my cheststrap so i dont loose it.

-unzip halfway, get the other two carabiners out and clip them to your legstraps. close bag again so rope runs just freely.

-get rope around the biggest branch you can find, split evenly, let it down. your HMS-carabiner is clipped to your chest-strap, unclip it, wrap rope as tought, hold on, cutaway canopy and belay. if you want to know how to do that, let it be shown to you by someone that knows how to do it properly or take a climbing class, i wont tell you how to do that.

i havent tested this setup. i'm pretty sure it'll work. again, tree < 10m, double-rope only. if tree > 10m, use rope to get proper climbing rope up. or maybe your buddy can help you out.

attached is also a couple pictures of a "how to" for a very basic harness with only a sling. the one in the pictures is 1.2m you will want a longer one. you could save yourself the hassle of bringing 3 carabiners and have only one that way.

the whole thing ran me around 100$. either the sling or the pouch were the most expensive, i cant remember.

http://www.rocknrescue.com/...cender.html#aPED_2d1

http://www.rocknrescue.com/...e-8-NFPA-Labled.html

have not used, look small tho

Why not repel using a carabiner on your chest strap?



PMI PED is 75 mm. tall, 41 mm. wide, 13 mm. thick, and weighs 44 g.

SMC Personal Escape 8 is 72 mm. tall, 70 mm. wide, and 10 mm. thick, and weighs 48g.

good question! there was a recent thread about it but i cant seem to find it (someone?)..

in summary, a chest-strap is not designed to bear the load in that direction, and most likely, will cause failure of the stitching. if you're not a rigger yourself with access to the machines, it will be more costly to send in your rig and get it fixed by the manufacturer. ultralight rigs with the narrow webbing are more prone to this than the ones with wide webbing. excuse my ignorance of the lack of proper terminology here.

This one?

http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

exactly; thank you!

I would recommend using an aramid rope for a set like this. You can more than double the strength of the rope at the same weight/bulk. And you also get much better high temperature properties.

do you have a source for this?

i've only found this: http://www.marlowropes.com/.../accessory-cord.html

and it's rated less than what i had gotten.

http://www.teufelberger.com/en/products/safety-rescue-ropes/heat-resistant-ropes/aramid-line.html#
The diameter of the rope is somewhat misleading - the weight 12,5g/m is what is important. And rating around 12kN.

Rather than a small figure 8, maybe something like the Kong Hydrobot would be better suited for escape on really skinny cord, seeing you can crank a lot more friction out of them by pressing up on the bar and/or wrapping the running end over the horn on top.

It's essentially what that prefab rescue kit used (but a bit larger).

You really don't need anything else than a locking carabiner. Wrap the double rope around the 'spine' of the carabiner a few times and you are good to go. I've used this setup many times to get down after solo climbing.

gathered a bunch of cords for testing. will try to test them this week.

Got Sterling nylon accessory cord, in 2mm, 3mm, and 4mm diameters.

2mm: 1kn (~225 lbs static load)
3mm: 2.1 kn (472 lbs)
4mm: 4.6 kn (1034 lbs)

(I weigh 180 lbs in this experiment, by the way)

I tested each cord in single strand, double strand, and quadruple strand.

I anchored the 3 and 4mm lines using a figure 8 follow-through around the overhead anchor point. I anchored the 2mm cord using several wraps under a clove hitch. The anchor was a 4 inch diameter, round, metal pipe.

For friction, I used a Mammut micro locking biner on my climbing harness belay loop, and either a munter, a super-munter, or a simple multiple-wrap around the carabiner spine.

The 4mm cord held my weight plus some bouncing up and down. Descent was easy to control with most friction techniques. The regular munter on the single-strand 4mm forces you to pay attention.

On the single 3mm cord, with just a simple munter hitch, the friction was pretty hard to control. An additional wrap around the spine made a big improvement. Doubling also helped a bit. Quadrupled 3mm cord was fine. The super munter by itself, and simple wrapping, were both good for 3mm cord, even as a single strand.

On the 2mm cord, I could get good friction control by wrapping a single strand 5-6 times around the carabiner spine. Even on a single strand, it held my weight even when I bounced pretty vigorously, but it was a little scary. I did not try dropping onto the cord. When I switched over to a super munter, the cord snapped at the hitch after slowly lowering 6-12 inches, under my full body weight (no bouncing).

Trends & other points:

Smaller cord and faster descent both made the carabiner heat up significantly, as one might expect.

The sterling technical manual points out that wet nylon cord can lose about 70% of its rated strength in their in-house testing.

When breaking strength is critical, you should think extremely carefully about what knot or hitch you use to fix your cord to the anchor point. i.e. if your canopy is the anchor, and you are fixing the rope to your risers somehow, it could be a lot more stressful on the cord than what I did.

Would I ever try to self-rescue on a single strand of 2mm cord? Maybe. Depends on the circumstances. But not without more testing first. 3mm I'd feel a lot better about. 4mm I'd probably use no problem but no one is saying it's an awesome idea, especially not Sterling.

If you try to lower out of a tall tree using a single strand of 2mm cord, you are taking a freaking huge risk. Do your own experimentation. None of these ropes are designed, tested, or rated to hold up a human being. And you are a dumbass and could die if you try to self-rescue without doing your own thorough testing first. There's way more rope-knowledge needed to pull this off safely, than I could possibly convey in a dumb internet post.

Assortment of of pictures attached. Happy to send out more. Enjoy.