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I originally wrote this in response to a posting on the “BASE Zone” forum. In the interests of not offending people, I removed it. On further reflection, I have decided that I feel strongly enough about this issue to risk giving offense. It may not be tactful, but I think this needs to be said. If I offend people with it, so be it. I would rather offend a hundred people, and save one life, than have 99 live friends, and one dead one.

There is a saying among BASE jumpers: “Girlfriends Die.” This is not a joke. Why?

Women have a disproportionately high rate of injury and death as student (sub-50 jumps) BASE jumpers. Although there are no definite statistics, I would estimate that while 10-15% of BASE students are women, something like 35% of student accidents happen to women. This is a terrible trend, and the key to changing it lies with the women who are prospective BASE jumpers.

Careful examination of motives (of both the instructor and student) is important for anyone getting into BASE. For a woman being taught by a man, it is absolutely essential.

Because of the issues surrounding women in a heavily male pastime, you need to be extra-careful in screening potential BASE mentors. Be certain that you want to BASE jump for you, not him, and that his foremost concern is your safety, not getting into your pants. From the beginning, you must be strong enough, and smart enough to back out of a potentially dangerous situation. Don’t count on the guys at the DZ to be looking out for you—they may be too busy checking you out.

Things for a woman to look for in a BASE mentor:
1) a qualified woman (since the number of these in the world can be counted on my fingers, you may have difficulty finding one)
2) someone who has no romantic interest in you, and in whom you have no romantic interest
3) someone who treats you exactly as they treat any other prospective student

Things to immediately disqualify a prospective mentor:
1) any degree of sexual tension between you
2) any romantic relationship between you
3) a mentor who is not qualified to teach
4) someone who helps or wants you to shortcut the normal learning progression

I can think of only one case in which a romantic relationship actually helped a woman advance her BASE skills and career, and that was a truly exceptional situation which involved a woman who had already begun jumping, was a very qualified skydiver (more than two thousand jumps), and had rock solid judgment, and a man who was an experienced BASE instructor, as well as one of the worlds most accomplished BASE jumpers. In every other instance that I know of, attempts to combine a romantic relationship with BASE mentoring or instruction have been unqualified failures, usually for the jumping, sometimes for the romance, and often for both.

Some men try to use the mystique of BASE jumping to attract women. There are few seduction tactics as tried and true as “being the teacher” (just ask a Tandem Master). Many women are attracted to the knowledge, confidence, and (supposed) power of a guy who can “teach” them to BASE jump. This is not a secret to the boys. Worse, men are tempted to overstate their qualifications as a teacher when they are interested in a woman. What guy will admit to an attractive BASE-curious skydiver that he isn’t qualified to teach? He will try to impress her with his “expert” credentials, saying “of course I can take you BASE jumping—just stick with me and you’ll go a long way, baby.” If his goal is to get laid, he isn’t an appropriate teacher. Hang out with him, date him, have fun with him, skydive with him, sleep with him—but learn BASE from someone else.

Example: BASE Fatality #43
#43 Erin Engle, July 22, 2001
Cliff Jump
XXX, Italy
Cliff Strike
"Erin is making only her second or third BASE jump. Reports indicate an unstable short delay and a wall strike under canopy."
Erin, who had only two prior jumps, was receiving instruction from her boyfriend.

Some women skydivers are drawn into BASE by boyfriends. This may be a result of the boyfriend’s desire to have a “BASE girl,” or it may simply be because, being exposed to BASE, the woman begins to develop an interest in it. BASE jumping is deeply personal, and there are many reasons to do it. But impressing your boyfriend is not a good one. If he really cares for you, he will let you approach BASE at your own pace, if at all. He may even try to discourage you from BASE jumping (since, as he truly cares for you, he won’t want you to get hurt). In any case, BASE jumping for anyone else (boyfriend or otherwise) is a major mistake, and one an intelligent, independent, strong woman need not make.

Example: Cliff Strike
X has around 100 BASE jumps. His girlfriend Y has less than 20 BASE jumps. X goes on a BASE vacation, and visits (among others) a moderately advanced, but legal, site. Y jumps. Y smacks the cliff. Y needs to be rescued. Y has surgery, and is on crutches for months.

Some women use their feminine charms to get BASE “instruction.” This tactic, which is widely accepted in skydiving, presents a serious danger when transplanted to BASE. In skydiving, if you pick a mentor more for his charms than his skydiving skills, you still have fun, and it’s no big deal. In BASE, this can easily hurt or kill you. Further, this technique rarely works on really qualified BASE instructors, because they are well aware of the “girlfriend problem.” As a rule, if a guy takes you for a BASE jump because he is interested in you, he is probably not giving good instruction to you, and may not be qualified to give it to anyone.

Example: Landing Injury
X is an experienced skydiver with less than 100 BASE jumps. Y is a relatively inexperienced skydiver (around 100 skydives), with no BASE jumps. Y has often used her “girlness” to her advantage skydiving, and decides it will help get her first BASE jump. Y convinces X to take her for her first jump. X takes Y to jump a good beginner object. Y has inadequate canopy control, and pounds in, breaking her leg.

Boyfriends (or guys who are hoping to work up into that position) have a lot of trouble saying “no” to the woman they are involved with (or want to be involved with). When she asks if she can jump a site with him, he is virtually powerless to deny her. He likes to spend time with her, he is flattered that she is interested in his hobby, he wants to please her—of course he will take her. She has to be the one to know this is a bad idea. And as a beginner, she has no way of knowing that. There have been several cases of unqualified women receiving BASE instruction. They didn’t know better, and the guys who did know better were more concerned with finding a way to spend time with them than helping them learn safely.

Example: BASE Fatality #27
#27 Susan Oatly, 1993
Cliff Jump
XXX, XXX National Park, California, USA
Cliff Strike
"Susan is the first XXX fatality and XXX's third overall. She held a head high attitude for too long and backed into the wall in her 8th second of freefall. This jump began the process of insisting people who begin BASE jumping have at least 150 previous parachutes jumps. There is also a side issue involving pretty girls without much experience being handed BASE jumps beyond their abilities. The load organizer is arrested by the Park Service (after staying behind to lead rescue efforts) and charged with manslaughter. The charges are later reduced to aerial delivery."

If you want to BASE jump, remember that your safety should be the primary concern of both yourself and your mentor. Mixing BASE and romance, flirtation, or sexual tension will only impair judgment, and often leads to disaster.

Note: I have removed names of all currently living people from my examples.

Edit: I have removed facts in question from the first example, while I attempt to verify them.

While my girlfriend is seemingly very interested in BASE. I have spent a good deal of time talking her out of it. I also have spent hours on end explaining this phenomena. I told her to be wary of me and especially any others willing to take her on a jump. We've agreed that if she decides to get into it she is going to skydive the hell out of her first BASE canopy followed by a 1st jump course and a lengthy stay at the Perrine.

I definitly think this isn't a joke. I've heard of girls with 60 skydives being taken on BASE jumps by less than qualified people. Not cool at all...

If you are guilty of above offense you should definitly question your motive for participating in BASE. Looking cool isn't worth the death of another.

Tom,
I think one of the quotes about an incident is incorrect. The jumper's boyfriend had quite a few jumps, not 20. Not sure what you would consider enough to be an instructor. Anyway, you might verify that and then correct it.

In this case, the girl had a fair amount of skydiving experience (~600 jumps) so it's not like all parts of the jump were new to her.

Also, what ever happened to people being responsible for their own actions? I thought most skydivers and all base jumpers believed in this concept.

I realize there are some situations were people get in over their heads due to others rushing them through the learning process but I really don't believe that was the case in this incident.

Jay

Thanks Tom. That is a very informative article, and I also hope it helps people evaluate some of their actions. Besides the whole knowledge thing, BASE jumping can turn women's hormones on, and make them very horny. A good thing indeed, but not when life is at stake. Am I wrong about this women? Do you not want someone to kiss and hold after you make a BASE jump, just to celebrate life? I want a woman there for me once I survive a BASE jump, but not watching. Think about the what-if scenarios.

An excerpt from my life? OK, this is from the latest email I got from a woman I was hoping would bring sanity into my life with a relationship.

"First, if you get a chance, call me later tonight. By later, I mean around 11 or 12 tonight, I probably won't be home before then. You're afraid of me? I'm afraid of you, but probably not for the same reasons. There is a lot about me you don't know and a lot of shit I have had to deal with in the last few years. My life is finally startiing to make sense and have some direction to it. My life is borderline "normal" these days, as in, not full of hurt, chaos, depression, anger, craziness or worthlessness. From the things you tell me, I feel that having you in my life would bring some of the chaos back, and I'm not sure I am prepared to handle that. By being in a relationship, you take on the other person's joys as well as troubles. And perhaps this is selfish, but I don't really feel like doing that right now. Not with you or with anyone else. Now it is time for me to focus on me and where my life is taking me. I finally feel like I am in a position in life where I might actually be able to do somehting worthwhile and I don't want anything holding me back. Pretty much why I broke up with my ex boyfriend. I wanted to go places and experience all I could in my travels, he wanted me to move to XXXXX and live with him.
You seem like the kind of person who falls in love too fast and too hard."

She knows it. I have a very addictive personality. So addictive that I keep doing things that I know will kill me. I think I can stop, but I don't want to. There's my real danger. I don't think I am an addict, I just think I enjoy things greatly, and don't have a good enough reason to stop.
Honestly, yes, I should quit BASE jumping. It gives me a chance to unleash my craziness and go for a big run with it. Of course, as said above, it will kill me someday. Oh well.
Live life, enjoy life, and have fun.
Peace,
Thomas

Jay,

Can you tell me where your information is from? I got mine from Italian jumpers present at the accident.

Can you email or PM me with your understanding of his experience level?

Thanks.

Thanks Tom, well written and informative.

Tom, I sent you an e-mail.
Jay

Indeed they do. That's why my rant is directed toward the women in the scenario--because they are the ones who are most at risk of being hurt.

I am not trying to say that blame lies fully on either party. My personal belief is that it is the responsibility of each jumper, each and every time they step off an object.

I'm not pointing fingers, or trying to lay blame. Not for past accidents, nor for future events. I don't care who is blamed by whom. Assigning blame for past events is futile. Averting future tragedies is my only goal.

I am hoping that somewhere, one single woman will read this rant and re-consider the manner in which she will approach BASE, and avoid injury or death in so doing.

I'd add one more thing, Tom. It is downright pathetic to watch some guys trying to get a chick's pants off by danging the fruit of BASE in front of their nose. Pathetic from the perspective of the guy, who confirms in our eyes that he is a total ass, unable to garner sexual gratification in any other more respectable way. And pathetic from the perspective of the chick, who is stupid enough to play with fire (i.e. BASE) just to have some guy drool over her.

Leave the goddamned hormones at home. Almost without exception, it is the more incompetent members of the BASE fraternity who are busy chasing cheap tail with their over-inflated sense of their BASE competence.

Girls, Tom speaks true - any BASE "mentor" who wants in your pants is not to be trusted. Find a male who has some self-control, or better yet find a qualified male mentor who ain't straight! That way, you know he's not got anything but your best interests at heart when he is illustrating the path to BASE to you.

While we are all responsible for our own actions, it is beyond irresponsible for a person to mis-represent the true state of the world to another who in turn lacks the knowledge to accurately judge that false information. In this case, the true responsibility for any tragedies that result is shared BOTH by the one who chose the wrong person to trust in gathering information, and by the person who knowingly spread false information to further another agenda.

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

Wow. When I saw the title of this thread I thought Tom was going to talk about something completely different!

Hi Tom
Thank you for posting that article. I completely agree with you. I don't beleive in throwing your life away over impressing someone. Its unfortunate that some women would do something that could be potentially deadly, for all the wrong reasons. That is not by any means to say that women should not BASE jump, because they are just as entitled to do it as men are, but doing it to impress some asshole is just wrong. If you do it, then you should do it for yourself, and yourself only, because ultimately it is your life that is at stake, and no one else's. And that also goes for the men. Sometimes I think that men its more of a matter of competition, but altimately it is done for the same reasons as with women, and that is in order to impress others.
I have been very lucky to encounter people whose main concearn was my safety and not getting into my pants, and I am a better skydiver now because of it. BASE jumping should be the same. As I see it Skydiving and BASE jumping is about beeing free and finding your self, thus when you are doing it for someone else all the freedom is gone, so whats the point?

You have pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Be careful, or you'll trigger rant number 2.

There's an old saying, started by Pete Fielding (godfather of Australian BASE) that I'm quite fond of:

"You're not a real BASE jumper until you've gone out and made a BASE jump, totally alone, and never bothered to mention it to anyone."

Maybe not the safest practice, but it does capture the spirit of jumping for yourself quite nicely.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this.

Can BASE kill you? Absolutely. And quite easily at that.

But that's a far cry from saying BASE will kill you. And the problem with that sort of fatalistic mindset is that they often become self-fulfilling prophesies.

I'm not saying pretend that the danger isn't real... it is. But I also wouldn't take up BASE if I was absolutely certain that one day it would kill me. I mean, the last thing you want to have in the back of your mind, even subconsiously, is "I wonder if this is the jump that's going to kill me."

I'm going to have to agree with Thomas here.

It may sound morbid, but there are many experienced BASE jumpers who feel that there are two possible ends to a BASE career: Quit or Die.

I don't quite believe that myself, but I certainly once did.

There are very few people who I feel have the skill to make BASE as safe as, say, skydiving. Even fewer of them choose to do so.

One of the highest compliments I can pay to a BASE jumper is to say "he's not going to die BASE jumping." So far, I've said that about four people (tragically, one of them has since died BASE jumping--Blue Skies, Cold Steel).

I know several people who gave up BASE when they reached a certain level of experience, and suddenly realized "oh crap, this really is going to kill me sooner or later." Personally, I think this may be the best decision for all of us, in the end.

Statistically, if you jump long enough, it will put you in the hospital. And equally, if you jump long enough (probably much longer than anyone has, to date), it probably will kill you.


You may not want to hear this, but that exact thought is in my mind (often at the very forefront) on virtually every jump. When I finished McConkey BASE, the last thing I said before exiting was "everybody's got to die sometime."

Sorry to be so morbid. But I sometimes feel that Thomas' very valid points on the level of risk involved are too quickly overlooked.

Tom, I also wrote something here in another thread to add to this about women:

Women have a disadvantage as they do not have the phsyical strength Men do, for things like rear riser turns, 'Man'-Handling these large parachutes etc...

A woman wanting to get into BASE should consider a weight training program, as well as trying to achieve simple things like 10+ pull up with your full body weight. This may sound trivial to a Man, but most woman can not do it.

Please do not take my post as a flame or anything. If a Woman that can do these things is reading this....CUDOS to you for having a great body. But this is important in BASE. It is a must I feel.

 


That is so true, and it complies to so many other things in life!

And thanx for the post Tom. It needs to be discussed...

Interesting post.
Eve after my accident my g/f (who is a skydive student at the time),still want to go into BASE.She found me at the ground,whith blood and bones...
We had a great discuss some day.She would like me to teach her(i only got 30 on my belt).I told her no,No newer!!!Its okay by be that she wants into BASE,but i wouldnt live whith that if she gets hurts it migth were me who tould her wrong.
I showed her Tom`s good artickel(pleace make the link for me some one,im not that much into this)About getting started.I also showed her the link to the fatalati site.She saw me the weekend i went for the first jump.I was WERRY nervus,Pink had just deied.I saw him as one of the greatest.
we had a long talk about this,and now she is okay about it...
for me its the happy ending at that storry,if she one day go for BASE,ill be happy to jump by her side..

About the alone thing..
I dosnt see why that should make a person a real BASE jumper.I does have the most jumps totaly alone.I love it,but some times it gets a bit lonly.

I think that what makes a real BASE jumper is the one who have the experience and guts to say no and walk down again,even if there are other that jump any way.

Hi Tom:

I think it is possible to teach girlfriends to jump IF:

1) They had the motivation to jump BEFORE you met
them.

2) You are an experienced BASE jumper and have
instructed before.

3) You can remain objective about their skills (and
yours).

4) You confer with fellow experienced jumpers as to
her progress.

5) You involve others you trust with her instruction.
(Sometimes YOU stay at home)

6) You are brutally honest with each other.

7) You never find yourself trying to convince her to
jump.

8) In fact, you find yourself telling her more why it is
a BAD idea to jump.

9) You make it clear she can walk away from BASE
jumping at any time...and that it is not a deciding
factor in you staying together.

10) You buy her one of those new ABA 'Slim X-ray'
t-shirts

Spence

(Just an aside, I am really impressed with this forum Tom! It definitely bridges the gap between the skydiving and BASE worlds)

Tom, you're the the man! This was a very well written piece.

I agree with 587 that there are rare cases when it's ok to teach somebody you're romantically involved with, but can't emphasize his #8 point enough:

8) In fact, you find yourself telling her more why it is
a BAD idea to jump.

It is really scary to see somebody you care about jump. If you try hard to discourage them, give them all the information and they still decide to jump... pity on you!

bsbd!

Yuri.

I'm not trying to start a flame war either. I see this as a healthy discussion. We only learn by having an open mind and discussing things between mature adults. Please don't take what I say personally.


What I'm supposed to do on the jump, and how I'm going to react if I have a 90, 180, etc. I think about getting a good launch, getting the delay right and pulling/throwing stable. In other words, I think about getting the job done. Nothing else.

I knew my comment was going to be misunderstood. That's the problem with web boards. It sometimes takes a couple of exchanges to articulate what one means fully. I'm guessing that some of the things I say here will be controversial and misconstrued as well.

Let's start with what I'm not saying. I'm not saying is that I, or anyone else should ignore the very real dangers that BASE presents. I'm not saying one shouldn't prepare for the worst... they absolutely should. I'm also not saying BASE can't kill you. Hell, it's probably the thing most likely to kill me (besides driving on Houston highways ).

I'm also not saying I'm not scared before a jump. Damn straight I'm plenty scared. Let's face it, that's part of the allure.

Naturally I've talked to my mentor about this a lot. He thinks it's fallacious to just assume that BASE will injure you or will kill you. It doesn't have to. It can, and the odds of it happening are pretty damn high, but it doesn't have to.

But to take the attitude that it will hurt or kill you only serves to put one into a negative mindset that is more likely to actually wind up hurting or killing you than if you say "It doesn't have to if I prepare for the worst." Note that that's not saying it won't, it's saying it doesn't have to.

A lot of folks underplay the importance of positive thinking and visualization in succeeding at something. If you go into something with a negative mindset, or think about all the things that you will do wrong, you are far more likely to actually do the wrong thing because your mind is focused on it. If you think about what you will do right (and that includes reacting to mals), you are more likely to respond correctly.

Being positive does not mean ignoring danger or being pollyanna-ish about something. It also doesn't mean refusing to consider everything that can go wrong and failing to prepare for it. Quite the opposite.

Being prepared means being honest with yourself, your capabilities and the situation and honestly trying to consider and prepare for every contingency. In BASE, there are a lot. And I doubt anyone can prepare for everything.

But once the preparations are done and it's time to perform a task, the only thing that should be on one's mind, and the only thing that is on my mind, is to complete the task as planned. I mean, once you're actually standing on the rail or the edge and you know you're going to go off, what's going to happen injury or death-wise is sort of a moot point. So why think about it? All that matters is what needs to be done.

In other words, be focused on the task. Not the results.

And again, I am not saying BASE isn't dangerous or that the odds aren't high that you will be killed or injured. We all know that they are. I'm just talking about the importance of taking a positive, honest, studious, methodical approach as opposed to a fatalistic attitude.

Tom can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think he's saying women shouldn't BASE jump.

I think he's saying don't mix business with pleasure. Especially when the stakes are high.

You want someone who is willing to say things that you don't want to hear. If you're romantically involved (or are trying to be) you are less likely to do that for obvious reasons. And that can lead to disastrous results.

So if you're romantically involved with someone and they really want to take up BASE, send them to a qualified mentor that you would trust their (and your own) life with.

 Just My word Skydivegirl,its a tough one

>If she really wants to get into BASE she's going to
>do it whether you offer guidence or not.

Exactly! I totally agree with you. You have to make sure this is what SHE wants to do herself. It is up to her to start jumping, and you shouldn't encourage her. Now if after all the fatality videos and broken bones you've shown her, she's still out to jump - the best you can do is to pass on whatever knowledge you have, and to point her to people who have more.

The point was not to use BASE as an attraction to score. Once you are already involved with somebody and she wants to jump, there is a whole different set of issues. Actually the picture changes upside-down: you probably won't want her to jump. The honest thing here is to swallow your fear and let her decide. You also have to understand that in this case you may not be the best teacher - and you have to be grown-up enough to accept it.

bsbd!

Yuri.

I think you have done a great service by bringing this topic up for discussion. It took alot of balls. I received quite a bit of citicism for a similar opinion I posted on Blinc after Erin's death.

I completely agree with that. Good Advice.

Hey Skydivegirl,
I would second the opinion that a good instructor might say:
Do what I say, not what I do.
My mentor went stowed. Should I go stowed my first jump? NO WAY! So I didn't, and was glad I listened. Thanks.
Peace,
Thomas

a wise man once said something like:

"BASE jumpers are rebels more than freedom fighters. The good ones seek neither publicity, permission, or support. They are the last cowboys of parachuting and when they disappear BASE jumping will be just another pastime like golf and bowling." - Nick Di Giovanni

Tom, i have been thinking... maybe we should keep it simple and do what men always do: lie! Promise them a great BASE career, score and then when it comes to the first jump say "Sorry babe, this is really not for you!". The fact you have just saved her life will by far outweigh any traces of guilt ;-)

bsbd!

Yuri.

Be careful,dont say that to a girl that could kick your ass:o)

The problem with this 'do what I say, not what I do' thing is you might be comparing apples to oranges... If the guy has 1000 skydives and his girlfriend has 58, then it;s a valid argument...

I hate to seem like I'm harping, but when I started BASE jumping in the '80's people had generally a lot of experience skydiving before they even considered BASE jumping (I had over 1000 and a rigger/inst rating, most of the guys in my group had at minimum 400/inst ratings - I say this because you did learn some rigging knowledge in the instructor courses).

Nowadays, because of media exposure, many people are getting into BASE with absolutely minimal experience skydiving... Now considering if the guy only has 100 - 400 jumps, he's probably dating a girl with less experience then him...

I would personally say in many cases a guy with less than 400 jumps shouldn't be BASE jumping (I could be wrong) but then add to that that his girlfriend with even fewer jumps wants him to train her - this can be a recipe for disaster...

There has to be a minimum experience level established and people really have to stick to it and work hard at the skills they will need before they try to advance... Even some of the First Base Jump courses out there make it too easy (in my opinion) for low-timers to get into the sport... That's not to say that because someone has 2000 skydives he's not going to screw up and kill himself, but why in God's name stack the odds???

Does that make any sense...

Skypuppy
'a skydiving and base jump anachronism' - ie - I may be so old that I'm missing the point entirely...

I agree,i had 500plus skydives,before i got into it.BUT we all know that if you have wanted to do it for long,then you may puch it a bit more for getting what you want(know what im saying?).

Im probaly the wrong guy telling it while my mentor have been whith me for 2 jumps(s/l)the rest i have done afther talking to him in phone and reading on the web..

Your statement is so shocking that i had to check. I went on the BASE fatalities list and here are the numbers:
- 67 fatalities listed
- 9 females (this is 13%) but maybe i missed a few (10, 15, 24, 27, 30, 35, 43, 52, 60)
- 1 references (43) where you mention the relationship
- 1 reference (27) where the "pretty girl thing" is mentionned as a side issue

Obviously, there are some hidden informations that you have and that i don't. So what's the explanation for the huge difference between your claims ("35% of student accidents happen to women" and "girlfriends die") and the info in the fatalities list ("13% of reported fatalities happen to women" and "2 reported fatality where the relationship might be a side issue").
2 fatalities out of 67 is 3%. If there are more than 3% of the BASE students who are pretty girls or starting with their bf as BASE instructor, then it would mean that pretty girls and girlfriends survive. So what's the missing information?

bb

Tom's estimate was that 35% of student accidents were female. He never claimed 35% of all base fatalities were female.


3% of the total maybe, but how many active female BASE jumpers are there? Skydiving is a predominantly male sport, I'd hazard a guess that this is even more the case with BASE. Taking female BASE fatalities as a percent of the total BASE fatalities is not very accurate if the vast majority of BASE jumpers are male.

It would be great if we could get info from the people who actually do the BASE FJCs as to percentage female students attending, percentage accidents involving female students etc. This might give an objective overview.

Will

That just mean that only pretty girls BASE,in my world the other 97%will be pretty boys(if you look at the like a girl)

Tom just trying to say that gf-bf student-instructer are dangerus..Rember that there also are women that instruct in BASE,that are the same fact maybe even more dangerus,while boys lways want to inpress girls..

Isn't this just common sense????

I think most women who would get themselves in this situation must know what they are doing and what the consequences are - and therefore it is no one else's business. If they want to use their "feminine charms" to learn BASE then that is their decision, and if they want to jump only because their boyfriend does then that is also their decision. BASE can kill you no matter what your reasons for doing it are, and who is to say which reasons are right or wrong?

And as a woman, yes I have had many unqualified (and some qualified) dudes offer to teach me to BASE jump - and I was definitely put off by how eager they were to help me kill myself. But I should point out that I have seen these same dudes offer to teach other dudes how to BASE jump as well. This type of person I think just needs to feed his ego and impress SOMEONE, male or female. (And unfortunately, both skydiving and BASE seem to attract a lot of these people.)

The few qualified BASE jumper friends I have were very reluctant to teach me, which made me have even more respect for them. In the end, I decided to learn from Anne Helliwell - not because she's a woman, but because I felt she was the most qualified person to learn from in my area (highly experienced in not only BASE jumping but also in TEACHING BASE jumping).

Anyhow, I'm sure Tom's post was well-intended, but I felt it was a bit condescending towards women. We are all adults and we all make our own decisions. The fact that there are people out there who want to teach others to BASE jump just to feed their own ego is scary, but this applies to men and women alike.

Just my 2 cents...

He wasn't saying anything condescending about female's at all, just the propensity for guys to think with their penises. Also, it may not even be that they're trying to "get some" but just that they're trying to be cool with the chicks. You KNOW that females is where the center of attention is in any social setting. Tom's just saying that they can't depend on guys to treat them as equals, that they have to be extra carefull that they know their own limitations.

-Doug

I had this reaction too. I was a little put off.

But I can see why Tom would want to address this issue. It's sad if a woman gets into BASE with underestimated risk due to a b/f wanting and/or pressuring her to jump. (after all... you trust your boyfriend)

Actually, this past weekend I did groundcrew for my b/f & one other guy (whom I had just met). After picking them up & leaving site... the guy commented that he "needed to get himself a BASE babe". Maybe he just meant to do groundcrew for him .

Anyway... it obviously happens often enough to be a problem. And people's lives are at stake here. There's no harm in discussing it... there might be harm in not discussing it.

I agree that this is not just a problem women have. I'm sure men are introduced to this sport by unqualified guys who don't talk about what real risk is involved. Lets be honest here! But this thread is specifically on boyfriends & BASE. Maybe there needs to be a thread on unqualified guys teaching BASE in general.

~Samantha

Student injuries. An underprepared student is far more likely to be injured than killed.

Also, people tend to under-emphasize certain factors after a fatality, especially in official reports. I've been close enough to several different fatalities to know that the printed reports rarely give a complete set of facts, and never give the "feel" of the situation.

I very purposely did not include statistics in my rant, because (a) our statistics are incomplete, (b) accident reports are often skewed, especially as to motivations, and (c) there are no reliable injury statistics.

As I stated at the outset


this is largely based on what I have seen, and know about, and a review of the (limited) sample of incidents that I have an in-depth (more than just web research) knowledge of.


I guess we'd better all get out there and find some pretty girls to take jumping, then.

>I guess we'd better all get out there and find some pretty girls to take jumping, then.

A solution for any smart girl that came up in PM exchange:

If you let them score upfront before it even comes to BASE, the whole "using BASE to get laid" becomes irrelevant. Further on, even if you kept having sex with a typical BASE jumper (a male chauvinist pig) there shouldn't be any love-feelings-relationship BS, thus by definition you are not romantically involved. You will get objective high-quality instructions, lots of jumps and plenty of complimentary sex

bsbd!

Yuri.

I apologize for giving that impression. I did not intend to offend anyone.

I asked four different women to review my posting before I put it on the forum. My goal was to reduce offensiveness. I then wrote a second draft based on their (excellent) feed back. Obviously, my writing skills were inadequate to my goal.

I was not trying to say that all men are going about this BASE thing correctly. I'm sure that in a while (once we've finished this discussion), I'll probably write rant #2, about ego and instruction, and follow that up with rant #3, on destructive competition. But I only have so much energy at a time (and I'm sure no one wants to read a 30 page rant), so I started with this one, because another thread triggered most of the writing.

Again, apologies for offending you, or sounding condescending.

Thanks, Tom - I wasn't really THAT offended. I was just pointing out that this SHOULD be common sense to any woman. And unfortunately, any woman who might actually need this advice is probably not reading this forum because she is probably the kind of woman who does not think for herself and therefore does not seek out information for herself.

But, as Samantha pointed out, there is no harm in discussing it... And if just one person reads this who might benefit from it then it could save someone's life. (But I do think it should be a topic on "Unqualified BASE Instructors" rather than "Boyfriends and BASE")

I just happen to know a LOT more men who are interested in BASE for the "wrong" reasons (in my opinion) and who are willing to learn from someone who is inadequate to teach them... and most of the women I know who are interested in BASE tend to be more cautious than men and therefore more likely to seek "proper instruction" (and well aware that most potential male "instructors" will be "thinking with their penises")... so I was just wondering why this post was directed at women - that's all...

I know... you just can't please everyone, can you? Sorry for being difficult...

Ah ha! Now I'm on to your tricks, Yuri! And you better watch out 'cause I AM big enough to kick your ass!

THIS IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTION BY INSTRUCTORS!!!!!
The student does NOT know what they are getting into.
Just like AFF, the student is relying on the instructor for most everything. Or they rely on the AAD.

A student is assuming that the instructor knows best and would tell them if there is something they really need to know.

Interestingly enough, skydiving accidents are also skewed in this manner. Women have a disproportionately high rate of injury and death in skydiving as well. On rec.skydiving the reason proposed was very similar too. (search rec.skydiving for more info)

That may be offensive to women, but it's true and worth addressing.

..interesting for sure.

My boyfriend started skydiving 2 yrs. before I did (1985)
He tried extremely hard to "get me into the sport, at this point in our relationship it would be awesome to be doing something we enjoyed together- but skydiving wasn't my choice. For my birthday I was handed a red rose & envelope..opening it I was thinking "a gift certificate?"....oh no- a tandem gift certificate...shit, just wanted him to step back.
Carried that around in my purse for at least 1 year... I did want to try, but only because I wanted to- not because "he" wanted me to.
Out of the blue one day- I decided to make that tandem jump, ...and went to the d.z. by myself and made it (he was so so upset because he wanted to be there)... Long story short- I decided I wanted to skydive and the only way I was comfortable taking my training was if he wasn't around- he started jumping at another d.z.

Damn- looking back I love the guy to death for being a skydiver and putting up with me! We do jump together sometimes now but mostly he may be manifested on the same load- but not on the same dive. Some how our relationship has worked, we are both skydivers but separate people in the sport. Might even get married one day!!

--my goal is to experience cave BASE- this is even more so- definately something I want to experience myself.

Smiles

There are no statistics that say women get injured more in skydiving or BASE. To have these kind of statistics, first of all we would need a complete list of ALL jumpers including gender, and then every dropzone and every BASE jumper would need to keep records of how many jumps are made and how many injuries result from these jumps and then all of this information would need to be kept in one place and analyzed. (But most dropzones don't even keep records of injuries, much less report them to anyone else... And BASE of course is even LESS organized than that.)

If I took statistics from what I have seen myself, I would have to say that women have a lower injury rate than men in either sport (especially skydiving, where swooping is the biggest injury factor nowadays, and there are still very few women who try swooping) - but again these statistics would be inaccurate because it is only based on a very small portion of jumpers.

Yes, there is no harm in discussing women getting injured in the sport (or people who may "help" them get injured), but please don't use statistics that simply don't exist!

i seccond that.

 Here is a secondhand story associated with the topic:
A super tracking student of mine told me about an incident at Lauterbrunnen where the instructor was adamant that his student does jump (handheld). Meaning in his opinion that he pushed her to jump, and handheld was the way. She was by my students account, terrified. But her instructor insisted that she would jump. She apparently had all the signs of a “No Go” to my student. He feels that the instructor was pushing her to jump.
Later.
Someone was looking for motorcycle BASE jumper tipps, like how to do it. This was from an exp. jumper.
Since I had worked with this with a motocross champ, I offered my assistance. It was denied. Then I heard the story…..She (Lauterbrunnen Lady) was a television star (with BASEr boyfriend) in her country, for a show of risk taking I believe. She crashed the motorcycle in a wide open area practicing to ride. She had not the ability (according to another BASE friend) to even ride a motorcycle for the stunt. Heli to the top, thankfully her and the boyfriend did not even consider jumping in the nice conditions. Her BF was not the one who was instructing her at LB.
I absolutely disagree with this type of instructor behavior. The people involved can flame me publically if they wish and I turn this into first hand accounts publically. Otherwise do it privately. You made a decision, and my thinking makes it wrong, and I am not so far off base I think.Feel welcome to criticize me.
Take care,
space

Keely,


What is your feeling on injuries per jump?

In other words, if you could draw a gender average per swoop, or per BASE jump?

Do you think that women have a lower chance of injury per jump of the same kind?

because less women overall........


excellent - a weighted average..........


be safe.......... be looking at statistics correctly!

M

Fewer women overall doesn't affect the injury rate. "Rate" takes into account the population differences. If 100 men result in 5 injuries and 20 women result in 1 injury, the rate is 5% for both.

True, but sample size will affect the reliability of the statistic. Especially very small samples.

Hey Tom,

The point I was trying to make is that you can't really say what the injury rate is without keeping detailed records of a large number of jumpers over a long period of time, which I have not been doing (and I don't know of any studies like this that exist, but please correct me if I'm wrong...)

If I were to start throwing numbers off the top of my head (based only on people who I know)... just from the past year, I have one female friend who has been injured (on a BASE jump), 3 male friends who were injured (all skydiving - only 1 related to swooping), and I have lost 2 male friends (1 a skydiving fatality - swooping, 1 BASE). There are far more incidents that I "know of" but it would take me all night to figure that out...

When I saw the thread "Boyfriends and BASE" I thought it might be about the emotional impact of relationships and BASE - as this definitely adds a whole new danger to the situation... But to say that women in general are getting injured at a much higher rate than men - I'm just wondering where these numbers are coming from???

Either way, as several people have pointed out, there is no harm in discussing it - so I apologize for responding negatively...

Of course not. That's why I had asked what your (subjective) impressions were. I wanted to match them up against mine, and add to my (still very subjective) data set.


OK, so it sounds like you are saying that of your friends who BASE jump, one women was injured and one man was killed. To (over)simplify, that's a 50-50 incident ratio. At a rough guess, what percentage of your friends who BASE jump are men, and what percentage are women?

If it's about 50-50 men and women, then you are seeing an incident rate that approximates the participation rate. If the majority of your BASE jumping friends are female, then your male friends are more likely than your female friends to be involved in a BASE accident. If the majority of your BASE friends are male, then the females are having a disproportionately high number of incidents.

All of this is nowhere near generating meaningful statistics. It's just on the order of "feeling", "guesswork" and "approximation." For example, if your male BASE friends jump more often than your female friends, then the incidents per jump ratio would again skew toward the women (you get the idea).

I guess what I'm saying is that my "feeling" based on personal observation (what I've seen, heard about, or talked to other jumpers about) is that female student BASE jumpers are suffering from a higher incident per jump ratio than similarly situated males.


Now that sounds like an interesting discussion. Perhaps we ought to start another thread on it.


Whoa. Apologies aren't necessary. This is a discussion, not an argument.

Ask my EX-Girlfriend - she would agree there is an impact on relationships!!!

Hi Tom,

I decided to pull these numbers only from people who I know reasonably well... If I included people who I just barely know, I would include 1 more male BASE injury and 2 more male BASE fatalities... If I start including people I don't know but just heard about - well again I don't have time for that, but I think it would be a similar average.

Anyhow, I think these numbers are basically useless because it's just such a small portion. With numbers this small, all it takes is one female injury to change the statistics enormously, and I just don't think that's an accurate representation. In the 3-4 years that I have been interested in BASE, she is actually the only female that I know who has been injured. (And if you asked me this a month ago, I wouldn't have known any females who had been injured.) As for the percentage of male and female BASE jumpers I know, a *very* rough guess would be about 15-20% female (and I think I live where there is an unusually high number of female BASE jumpers)...

It would be nice if there were some way to actually get some good statistics about this... if there was one person (or organization) who people could report injuries to and this info could be analyzed over a few years - I think that's the only way we'll ever see any accurate "trends"...

Ok, I better shut up now and get ready for work

Rate versus ratio buddy. Rate is TIME related. Miles PER hour, meters PER second, and jumps PER injury. Ratio is number related.
How about this?
Number of jumps women make before object strike,
versus the number of jumps men make before object strike.
Then, we would have to factor in things like difficulty of objects, and then it sounds like ROCK CLIMBING, with rating scales. Of course, then it would only be an averaged approxiamation. Now, how about we look at:
Number of women in the sport 10+ years
Number of men in sport 10+ years
And compare injury per gender on a 1,000 jump average. Then, you would have a decent looking rate. "Injuries PER Thousand Jumps", we could call it.
What then? Would the rate tell you how many jumps a woman or man should make before stopping without injury? willing to give a guarantee on that number?
This post is not above judging "fitness" for the sport, but to discuss "Boyfriends and BASE". As in, how they affect us. Not judging who can BASE, or even who can teach. But how it affects us.
I have had problems with my Ex-girlfriend and BASE.
That's all,
Peace,
Thomas

As long as you draw enough samples of an appropriate size from a population you will get an acceptable measure of what is going on in that population as a whole.

In 1999 the uspa did release an article indicating that women who made up 15% of skydivers had 24% of the deaths for the year. Nevertheless, due to the small sample size the results may be statistically insignificant. (only a year) So I will give you that. I was wrong saying that it was gospel that women get hurt disproportionately compared to men since the sample size is suspect for that study. I was going to do my own calculations, but the statistics part of uspa.org is down or the link is broken.

The jury is still out on the statistics, but I still think women get hurt disproportionately compared to men in skydiving. At least at my dz it seems that way, but I hope that changes. What I see happening is women jumping gear too big for them (remember the girl who fell out of her harness after deployment in 98'?) and getting graduated too soon and easily because they are so rare. (plus getting on bigger loads and freefly jumps for the same reason)

What Tom says about women in BASE is very intuitive. In fact, one could almost have known it just by observing human nature with regards to men and women in general. It doesn't make women any worse than men, nor does it have to make BASE (or skydiving) more dangerous to women, but there are issues that can do exactly that and needs to be addressed, and I'm glad Tom decided not to give in to the PC Police and not post it.

I jump at a dropzone that I think has a higher ratio of females than most dz's - I'm guessing something like 20-25% female. I've been at this dz for two years now, one year of that working at the dz. During this time I have seen quite a few accidents (it's a big dz) and I can honestly only think of one of them where it was a female that got injured. I've lost count of how many men I've seen get hurt, but I could safely say at least 20 in the time that I've been here. That makes for a very low female injury ratio at my dz - but again I think these numbers are just too small to mean anything.

Anyhow, I've managed to turn Tom's thread into an argument about statistics and I really didn't intend to do that. I have thought about this and realized that no matter what the statistics are, if there is anyone out there who needs this advice (and obviously there are) then it is certainly worth saying.

Yikes! With all this talk about females getting hurt less at my dz - I just realized I am totally setting myself up to be the next female injury (for the sake of irony). So I now take it ALL back and I am knocking on wood as I post this...

Good thinking Keely! lol

BUMP
http://www.basejump.org/.../262.html?1049806238

Is anyone trying to reach Sheila? I can only hope she's talking to the locals, and they are giving her the proper guidance.

That almost looks like a troll. Scary...

Well I am not about to question your statistica Tom, but I do think that your article is filled with a ton of logic. I think that it is fine for a boyfriend to teach a gf in skydiving(it should be done for more than getting in her pants) but not in B.A.S.E. There should be someone distant and able to make the calls on whether someone should or should not do something. Those decisions are hard made when you think there might be reprocussions. Nice job on the article, my gf who is just starting skydiving this year asked me if I would take her B.A.S.E. jumping when she is ready and I forwarded this article to her. Thanks.

~Chachi

Mick hit the nail on the head.

You don't know what you're getting into. You don't. You don't know what it feels like to see a friend splat. You don't know how it feels to be that scared. You don't know. If you did you wouldn't do it. Mentoring is like inviting someone to get hooked on heroin (not the pink stuff). You really have no idea.

Picture the 18 year old kid joining the marines. His preconceptions don't include watching his friends die, losing his hearing to artillary, getting STDs while in port. Not seeing his family for extended periods, lack of sleep...do I need to go on?

BASE is warts and all. There is no half way unless you live in Twin Falls. It hurts, it's uncomfortable, it uncovers flaws you're embarrassed to confront.

Ask yourself a question..."Why do I want to BASE jump?"

If you think it's kewl...It's not. Noone sees it.
If you think it's a buzz, snort some coke. It's cheaper and it lasts longer and it's better for you medically.
If you want it cos your friends do it...get some new friends cos if you BASE jump you'll have to do this anyway when they all die.
If you want to get laid...go to Vegas. It's cheaper and easier to photograph and sometimes it lasts almost as long ;-).

To wannabe's everywhere...don't do it.

It sucks. It takes too long to learn if you're gonna survive. It's too expensive. It's all bad.

Talk big, tell everyone you do it. Get laid, feel good.

But male or female...Don't roll the dice.



You have been so advised.

Very sincerely,

Uncle Skin

BASE is for homos. OK, not really, but that f*¢kin' BASE/YMCA monstrosity was horrifying, and had me questioning my sexuality, I MEAN... er... shut up.

Didn't get it. 3 stars.

 

Ask yourself a question..."Why do I want to BASE jump?"


If you want to get laid...go to Vegas. It's cheaper and easier to photograph and sometimes it lasts almost as long ;-).



PLUS, the drinks are stronger.




<Talk big, tell everyone you do it. Get laid, feel good.>



Shhhh....

Don't understand this one either. 2 Stars.



Your profile says you're primarily a BASE jumper with USPA student status, 37 jumps and fly a Stiletto.
Or is that a 37 year old student who wears stilettos?

I'm thinking bigger than a gnome but shorter than an ogre...

it must be a student BASE jumping a Stiletto

No skin - you hit the proverbial on the head! and i dont mean those sheep you keep dressing up!


Nice words, Nice work!

when you popping over to your orginal home?!?!?!

so its there you got your cowthing...things just need to get extreme...huh.. shure first when he feel it safe,and as long your there it aint..

Early august my man. Let's tear it up.

if im lucky ill be okay at that time...lets ruin Mac´s place in a looooong weekend

Sounds good. I'll bring the chainsaw.

Is this based on a "5 star rating system"? Exactly WHAT are the dimensions of each?
I'm thinking bigger than a gnome but shorter than an ogre

****************************************

It would be nice if there were some way to actually get some good statistics about this... if there was one person (or organization) who people could report injuries to and this info could be analyzed over a few years - I think that's the only way we'll ever see any accurate "trends"...

****************************************

There may be more recent statistics available, but Norm Heaton, then head of the "Parachute Club of America", (since renamed "United States Parachuting Association"]), stated in December of 1967 that: "50% of all skydiving fatalities are women, and 10% of all jumpers are women".

Note that far from being a published report, Norm made this statement one evening in informal conversation in a bar after a day of skydiving in Taft California. But it's probably quite safe to assume that the PCA would have had access to fairly good data in this regard, just as the USPA would have today.

Please also note that this post should not be construed in any way to be my opinion regarding female jumpers. It is simply a response to your query about statistics. I knew some extremely talented and competent female skydivers back in my days. Jean Boenish, Marta Eminotti, and Heather Swan, among others, are certainly icons in the sport of BASE jumping today.

How's ole Norm doing now?

He's still dead.

I didn't take Tom's post as condescending toward women at all. I believe it was more just to point out that boys will be boys, and boys enjoy impressing girls--especially those who will feed their egos by acting soooo impressed by the fact that they BASE.
I am a new skydiver, and have been fortunate in that my instructors all have a great interest in seeing me succeed. A couple even asked--more than once--to be certain I was jumping because it was what I wantes to do, not just because my boyfriend was a skydiver. I could answer without hesitation that jumping is something I have always wanted to do...and I am grateful that my instructors cared enough to give me the chance to pause and discover if it was for me, not my loved one.
I do not plan on BASE jumping, and my man is glad-he certainly does his part in discouraging me from BASE! Thank you, Tom, for making me feel even more loved and cared for than I already did!
Safe landings...

I agree with you this post really is great and I really want to learn both skydiving and base but it was base that drew me to this forum. I had seen it somewhere and I my curious mind got the best of me. I really want this for me and not to impress anyone. I added it to the list of things that I want to do before I turn 30 but I don't know if it will happen by then. If I hear another pick-up line I think that I will scream. I just want to learn about the sport with out any person getting in my way.
kate

A few summers ago I was at Perrine making a few leaps with some friends. There were a couple of nice looking young ladies hanging out with some jumpers.
In the afternoon the girls were PCA'd off the bridge while wearing bikinis and no helmets. The swimwear was for the water landings they were to do because the guys didn't think they could land the big Mojo 260's on the grass.
Boy did we look like dunces in our helmets and long pants and shirts!
I really enjoyed the part when the one attractive young lady nearly drowned because she didn't know there was a cutaway handle on her rig.
We debated if we should jump and land next to her and help, since her dispatchers had no gear.
Oh, wait...I'm mistaken. Two of the guys had gear, one wearing a really nice camera. They did a 2 way to help. The camera dude had an off heading and went back under the bridge and pounded in on the north side, west of the bridge and the other guy wrapped the pilot chute around his arm. He opened at about 50ft and splashed down also, nowhere near the girl in trouble.
It was quite entertaining watching the old dude in the boat try to get 2 girls, one nearly pulled under by her canopy and one guy who had a load of poo in his britches. And all the while the camera guy yelling for help 'cuz his camera got wet or something. Man that old guy in the boat was pissed off!!!!!

True story. I was there with some very experienced BASE jumpers. They politely approached the guys and asked if they wanted to borrow our helmets for the girls. We had some extras. A lot of attitude was given so we just hung out and did our leaps and watched the carnage for a few days. I spoke with Don the boat guy after his experience rescuing them. He was really mad and asked those guys and girls to not jump anymore. How retarded do you have to be to make him fear for you?
Bikini BASE school...I think I'm gonna start one!