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Good Morning :-)
usually i am looking for smoething used but it seems there is nocthing on the market if i find one that should fit it has always integrated risers :-(.

SO now i think i havt to buy new.
Since today i Jumped with Helium, Prism 1, Apex DP and Zak2

I will use the Rig at first subterminal
but the plan is to have more terminal/slider up jumps

In the last months, my main focus was on

-Zak2
-Hybrid 2
-Helium
-Sneakor (seems to be nice too) suitable for low stuff?

Because i live in europe i think morpheus is difficult to reach.

so which should be The RIG? Which Options are a must have.
I personally have 3 Rings on the list.


It should fit a 245 Troll (ZP Nose? Yes/No)


Thx :-)

Why do you require to have 3rings? The only situation where I can see that 3 rings are a must have is a situation where you can see that landing into a moving water is highly probable. Personally after almost 1600 jumps from close to 300 objects I´m yet to jump an object where I would not feel comfortable to jump rig with integrated risers. Not saying that those objects do not exist but personally I don´t consider 3rings as "mandatory" option. I know 2 cases where 3 ring system has failed resulting in serious injuries (probably there are more) but 0 cases where the lack of a cutaway would have resulted in similar outcome... Just as a pure question why do you feel so? I have currently 1000+ jumps with integrated risers and cannot think of a reason why I would order new one with 3rings. Lot of people mention tree landings but personally I have climbed down from 2 trees with integrated rig and had problem of getting the canopy down.

Someone I knew landed in a tree after a B jump and cut the canopy away to escape being arrested.

One other important consideration is if you are participating in a swoop-and-chug and you land far away from the beer. You can cut-away and run to the beer instead of dragging your parachute behind you.

After a (very) high tree landing, without any cutaway, i had to cut my risers when the rescue came to help me (on a zak²).

So, after 2150 jumps without any 3 rings on my rigs, i had to pay for new direct risers on my rig and wait 5 days to have it fixed ... doesn't worth the fear of 3 rings failure, the weight and bulk of the cutaway for the other 2149 jumps

If he don't jump near (moving) water, tell your friend to buy a good hook knife : cheap, safe and really fast

I had a ....bad landing on an urban jump. The ability to cutaway got me on the ground safely. It also kept me from getting caught/arrested.

3 ring seems like a good feature if an LZ is near moving water, a busy road/railroad, or illegal...

Sewn in Risers+slinks+hook knife 30 bucks to replace slinks...

Or Rapide links finger tight+hook knife if needed in a hurried situation...

I know of a fatality that occurred because a jumper was unable to separate from the canopy and drowned.

I think having a non-releasable canopy is a viable option _if_ (and it's a big if) you have the strength to say no to jumps where you might need it, usually because of the risk of water landing or arrest. Most people don't have that strength of will, and will take unnecessary risks because they can't say "no" to those jumps. It is for this reason that I recommend that a jumper with only one rig should have a release system on that rig.

I know a fat old guy who once, long ago, cut away a live cop in tow (and successfully avoided arrest).

One of the worst malfunctions you could have Very difficult to walk away from.
Glad the fat old guy cleared it and got away! maybe someday I'll hear the rest of the story!

Yes, you're right. I have since this incident slinks on all my rigs ... way cheaper !

Before that, i always told myself that i have to buy slinks, but never done it. But when you have to cut your risers, you suddenly remember that you really have to do it

I got hung up in a tower and grabbed onto the tower for dear life and found the cutaway system very useful because it felt like my chute was going to pull me back off from the wind. You could be smarter than me and only jump towers in a tail wind, but sometimes it's hard to say "no".

now what kind of dumbass would decide to jump a power tower in a crosswind with a WEAKsauce delay???????

=)
let me know if that shit falls through tonite and well go down south at sunrise tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!

sorry for the long delay,
the reasons i have in my mind for 3Rings are allready been written.

-getaway
-Tree or other not so good Landings
-

but you guys are also right, with the old words "keep it simple" cause every technical addon can also harm you :-/

will be a hard decision, any other pro´s / con´s beside 3rings?

If you maintain your gear there is really no added risk in having 3-rings on your gear. It works. Yes, there will be a slight weight and bulk increase, but there are some crucial benefits to 3-rings, and they become obvious once you really need them (hopefully you never do).

Cutting softlinks with a giant hook-knife sounds simple enough in theory but doesn't work when your canopy lands in a strong river/stream and gets filled up in seconds and starts dragging you in...

3-rings aren't useful until the day you need it

Cutting the Slinks does not release you from your canopy.

You still have to cut your control lines or release your WLO toggles.

Using a hook knife is not that easy, especially when you are in a hurry and hurt.

Slinks are pretty tight, I wanna see video of them cut in a hurry without damaging the lines or risers. Plus in a quick getaway, one cable versus cutting 4 slinks ... The cutaway will win every time. That being said it makes complete sense to have slinks on integrated risers.

Just sayin...

I'd really like to hear from someone who has used a hook knife to cut them in a real world application please.

I own two custom Gargoyles, neither have 3 rings.
Sure I'd jump a buddy's packed rig with a cutaway
but I personally would never buy a new rig with it.

Yes, I have landed in two trees, and both times I
just climbed out of the harness and then retrieve
my gear, which once involved felling the tree.

IF shit gets soo serious that I am using a knife
and time is of the essence as in drowning, then
instead of the SLINKS, samurai the damn risers!

As for cutting away a cop, a new vented TROLL
with black lines, tax, shipping costs more than
a first bust costs, unless you are in Yosemite.

To each there own for sure, but currently 80%
or more of rigs come with 3-rings, I think this
is more momentum than actual premeditation!

Edited to turn off my green

I think it really depends on the definion of "all around" usage of the rig as this was the question from the OP. Personally, I don´t define jumps as "all around" where I have :
1) High probability of landing in to moving water
2) High probability of having to cut away from a "cop in tow" malfunction

Of course, if these kind of jumps are in your (not yours Greenmachine, I just replied to the last message on the thread) defintion of "all around" -jumps, then by all means you should get 3 -rings. For my standards these are kind of "special jump" and should I do these kind of jumps I would get a special rig for these. Personally I currently own 1 rig with 3 rings so If I would do a jump with the potential outcome of the 2 scenarios above, probably I would pick my rig with cutaway. But as this kind of jumping is really not "all around" jumping for me, I´m happy to have an integrated rig without having to worry about a 3 ring failure. 3 rings have their specific use (for example jumps with either one of the 2 potential scenarios above) as most of the options in BASE rigs but I would hardly call them mandatory in an "all around" rig.

I had to cut the slinks after a treelanding following a cliffstrike.
I was using the standard polycarbonate hook knife, that comes with an Apex rig – the polycarbonate hookknife is one step up from the flimsy plastic hook knife.
Cutting the first two slinks was relatively easy, the third was hard, the forth I had to “saw” through with the help of a mountainguide, the polycarbonate grip already started to disintegrate.
I was then lowered by the mountain guide, but was still attached by the control lines.
I was fixated on cutting the slinks, with hindsight I would have released the WLOs first and cut the slinks, which bore my full weight, later.

IMHO you always have to use slinks in combination with WLOs and you have to visualize the procedure of cutting away before the helicopter is hovering near you.

Usually, when I think of an "all around" rig, I want it to be able to do all jumps.

A "specialized" rig would be one that you wouldn't want to take on some jumps.

If you only have one rig, then I think it should be an "all around" (i.e. capable for the widest range of jumps) system.

If you have 2 or more rigs, then the thought process will be different.

thats not going to happen unless you literally carry a really sharp samurai sword, lightsabre, or similar.

i have a rather longish video of a friend of mine cutting his L-bar risers while sitting in a treetop. first two went ok'ish, those were under tension, third was not under tension and it took him forever to cut through it. half way through the 4th the hook knife fell apart.
you can see how the blade goes blunt...

he ended up climbing out of the harness.

lessons learned:
- cutting risers isnt going to work
- the doctor in LB is a pretty cool dude
- if you go for a canopy rescue mission and climb a tree put on long trousers and a long shirt (i was more scratched up than my friend that actually landed in the tree)

How about having a good line cutter? Like this one:




https://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=uauIgypvXmA

i agree with Tom here. for "all around" i would definitely go with 3rings.

i don't know of anyone who's actually been worried about 3 rings failing on a jump. they're pretty proven, and a little preventive maintenance goes a long way. also, it has been discussed before, but it's pretty easy to add a slink to your 3ring if you're nervous about it failing...

releasable risers are super convenient... especially when you, for example, fuck up your risers and decide to replace them. not so easy with an integrated setup.

of course, i love my dedicated slider up rig too. (specialized rig as Tom says) super light Profile with sewn in risers. but i wouldn't take that into a potential river jump... and here in the US, we have a lot of those kinds of jumps and similar where you might benefit from a quick cutaway.

the tree landing thing... yeah, you can climb out of your harness... personallly, i like having it on... because with a lightweight buck strap in your stash, you can secure yourself to the tree while climbing down. falling from high up in a tree with no branches below you sucks. trust me on that.

also, like Walter mentioned... it sounds easy to hack away at slinks, but until you do it, you don't know what you're talking about. buy a set and practice once, i challenge you. then ask yourself how easy it will be in an emergency situation.

all that being said... everyone's mileage will vary. get the right tool for the job. personally, that's why i own so much gear.

Naked in under a minute.... looks like a good tool to have.

I actually have one of those.

I still prefer the 3 ring system for immediate separation from the canopy.

That is what I bought after the accident.

But with my new wingsuit all the knifes disappear inside the suit.

If anyone is actually afraid of the cutaway system you can just bridge it out with a small hard link and only allow for cutaway on water loads or stealthy ninja missions. at least afford yourself the option.

The only reason I can see getting integrity risers is if you're going for a low weight sleek rig, but I'd argue that it wouldn't be all round then.

Wouldn't cutting the lines be easier than cutting the slinks?

easier yes... but i think the point is for less things to cut and the quickest and cheapest repair to put it back in service.

Yes. But it's much more expensive.

I guess I was thinking in more of a emergency situation where time is a factor.

If that's your main concern, the three ring cutaway will be faster than either.

Yeah I know. Was just wondering about a non 3ring rig.

i gotcha... i think in that case, the fastest thing would be to cut the risers.

I've cut a set of risers with a Jack the ripper hook knife... No problem clean through all 4...

Can you tell us what the circumstances were? Were they tight or loose? Were you suspended from them or in water?

Suspended from a tree, in the dark, with a rescuer screaming at me to cut us free while a helicopter danced above our heads... I was loading the harness in such a way that I could not get the cutaway handle free from between my ribs and the harness. (perigee pro)

Went through like butter except when I hit the cutaway cable... Hacked the shit out of the cable on the miss, hook knife still cut two more risers.
This was all after the same knife had cut a bridle and a number of lines.

In water, unloaded, might be a bit tougher. And I one hundred percent believe it would be easier to cut slinks in that case, smaller, absorb less water and you wont have to hold them flat to cut through them like you would a riser. You might hit a cats eye and have to replace a line or two, not the end of the world.

Obviously in the case of a water landing, especially in moving water, anything other then a 3 ring is gonna make the situation worse... All other circumstance, I don't see it being an emergent issue. If its life or death, hell I'd cut myself out of the harness if I had too... Also, in fast moving water your probably gonna end up hooking a couple lines as you tangle with them.

The CRW community is moving away from the standard Jack The Ripper to metal handled, single bladed knives. Dual blades allow material to become trapped, especially when trying to cut something that isn't under tension. I've seen it demonstrated on the ground and it has apparently happened to people in actual emergency situations. Also, because the handle flexes the blades rub against each other and eventually develop burrs or dull areas, which exacerbates the problem.

I'm a fan of the Raptor SB that Square 1 sells. Knives like the Benchmade 7 and 5 are starting to get popular in the CRW community as well.

Of course, the standard advice applies: Inspect and maintain your knives. Sharpen or change the blade as necessary. Don't use the knife in non-emergency situations. Blah blah blah.

I landed in an river one time. Cut away my canopy on instinct, no real thought process just cut away because that is what you do in water. Then I was taken along for the single scariest fucking ride of my life.
After I somehow didn't die on that jump I am firmly convinced that if I hadn't cut away when I did I would not be here talking shit on the internet. I believe that if I had waited until I "needed" to cut away it would probably have been too late. I also believe that anyone who thinks they will be able to cut lines or risers or slinks while in fast flowing water obviously have never been in fast flowing water.
Something else people may not be considering is the speed at which cold water will rob you of dexterity. I am a strong swimmer but after swimming through that river for less than 2 minutes I was struggling to stand up let alone use my fingers to fuck around with hook knives.
I love integrity risers and still jump them. But if there is flowing water nearby I am going with 3 rings.

Can't tell for sure, but I think you meant to say the JUMPER FAILED to maintain/set them up properly? :)

I know of 2 cases in which 3 ring failure resulted in serious injury and 1 in which it did not.

In 1 case it was basically incredible random chance--a one in a million freak accident.

In 1 case it was poorly manufactured (out of spec) 3 ring assembly.

In 1 case it was poor gear maintenance on the part of the jumper.

I don´t know the details of the cases, could well be that the rigs were poorly maintained or badly set up or then could be that they were not. I think 3 ring failures are a bit like bad PCA´s, every jumper should know how to give a good PCA (it´s not that difficult at the end) and still people drop pilot chutes... And maintaining your gear is much more complicated than giving a PCA. :) Personally I try to maintain my gear as good as I can but also I still feel that the 3 ring is an unneccessary weak point in my system which can through a random event disconnect myself from my only canopy so I choose to jump mainly without one. Mainly because I own 2 rigs, one with a 3ring system and one without. I have absolutely no problem to jump with 3rings as well but like said, my preference based on my risk vs benefit assessment is to prefer an integrated system. Your assessment might be different.

I would feel very "unsafe" without them, even though they bring a bit of stress before the jump.

I had to use them few times (mainly during getaway), although I would have managed without them in those situations, but it's only now in the hindsight that I know it.

What do yall think about disabling the cutaway system by using a slink to connect the small ring to the medium ring? You would still assemble the 3-ring normally (i.e. the cable holds the whole thing together) and the slink would just be a backup in case of some freak accident.

If you're doing a jump where you might want to use the cutaway system (jumping over water or trees), you could just take the slink off. I haven't tried it, but it's an idea I had.

I've used a hard link (not a slink) to do that on several occasions. I can't see any reason a slink wouldn't be just as good, though.