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Does anyone know if there are any functional differences between the Apex and Adrenalin direct bag designs? Do either of them have a way of preventing the canopy from leaving the bag before line stretch? Like a tail-pocket on the outside of the bag that you can use instead of the canopy's tail-pocket? I don't see anything like that in the pictures. If the canopy leaves the bag before line stretch, it'll still TARD its way open, but it seems like your best chance for a fast, on-heading opening is to make sure the canopy stays in the bag until line stretch.

I don't know what the current designs on the market are, but I have never seen a direct bag that didn't have stow bands across the mouth, which prevent the canopy leaving the bag before line stretch.

I agree with you Tom. But the question from jws3 shows that one or 2 of us 3 is without concept of the source of the question. Or jws3 doesnt understand simple physics. My fear is that last statement is true. I would prefer that the former is true.
we take it to pm? I also mean you jws3.
Take care,
space

Space,

I once owned a factory made DD-Bag so I know
what you are getting at but think there are many
on this forum who could benefit from reading the
reply you are likely to send John, hence please
post it here so other newbies can learn also.

Thanks,
~Tom

Ok.

A direct bag functions to keep the canopy closed until the lines are deployed. You are asking an ironic question. Very simple to me. Line stows close the DB. Canopy cant come out until lines are unstowed.
and the bag opens.

I could be just super intelligent or follow a logical path.
Grippers on the bag is of concern to me after the static wind direction that you add your downward vector to.

I feel that you are asking the color of the auto that you just crashed into rather than questioning your decision to run the traffic light red.

Take care,
space

Ok. The bags I'm looking at look like they only have 2 or 3 stows. I guess there are extra stow bars on the sides that you can't see in the picture. I understand simple physics, thank you.

Most of the people who've learned to jump in the past decade have never seen a direct bag in person, so it's not unreasonable to ask.

He's interested and asking--which most new jumpers are not.

I've got 2 direct bags here, if anyone wants to try one out.

Agreed tom, Ive been thinking about making one for myself and realized id never even seen one in person. Has anyone on here made a direct bag jump in say, the last 5 years? I just static line anything I think is low, but the new method of the nose assist looked amazing/terrifying too

so the guy has never seen a DB or how to pack it or how to use it or how to hold it....

Hell send him one...

Why doesnt he ask his mentor? oh he doesnt have one.

I've never seen/used a DB in person, but it's not like they're rocket surgery...

If you have GC able to d-bag you on something low and solid, I'm guessing it's quite preferable to just a static line? I'm not concerned with opening height, just heading performance. It seems that it'd be better with a d-bag. There was a conversation (several actually) about heading performance of static lines and how anything severe (especially over a 90) was very rare, but not unheard of, in good/no wind conditions. What about an offheading with a correctly executed dbag in reasonable wind conditions? I'd think it'd be incredibly unlikely (even compared to a static line)? Just seems noone really uses them.

I agree....I made one from old dbag... like space said if u can't figure it our from pics and video... maybe u need someone to show you. Get to linestretch- canopy presented correct. Dbag= dumb bag.

I would have a hard time trusting a dumbass... so if he is Asking on here who is gonna hold his bag?( I don't care I just see factors adding up)


JW3 I'll hold it for you

It would be much easier to show him how, here, where we have a super easy object to try it out.

I know how the canopy goes into the bag. I just wasn't sure how the lines are stowed because I've never seen one in person and it's hard to see more than 2 or 3 stows in the pictures on the websites.

This is why I've made less than 40 posts on this site in over two years. There are some people that legitimately want to help, like Tom, but there are a lot more people who just want to stroke their own egos by treating you like you're stupid and being condescending.

Edit:

Tom, next time I'm at the bridge, I'd love to come get some pointers on using a D bag. Thanks.

Zebu, that's exactly what I'm thinking. It seems like a direct bag would give you the best heading performance of any deployment method. With a PCA or SL, the canopy leaves the container on heading, but has time to turn on the way to linestretch. With a direct bag, the canopy leaves the bag on heading, which is at linestretch. It leaves the bag on-heading, then immediately starts to inflate.

That´s a very interesting theory, although based on my experience (100+ PCA/SL jumps myself and couple of hundred what I have seen in person) the heading performance in SLA/PCA´s is very good as well. I belong to the category of jumpers who have never seen a DBAG jump in person as well. A friend of mine owns one though and we once spent couple of hours fueled by good bottle of XO Cognac to examine it and test pack it and figure out the fundamentals of it. I understand the working principle of it but it seems quite a lot of extra hassle to me (compared to just packing things normally SD and going PCA´d/SL). For those of you who actually use DBAG´s, what is the added benefit over PCA/SL which would justify the extra hassle of the rigging? I personally have serious doubts that DBAG´s would open significantly higher than well executed PCA but I´m gladly proven wrong if someone has any "hard evidence" on this topic.

Just as a benchmark, we have conducted multiple jumps (all PCA´d) from objects down to 31m and based on that I have decided my absolute hard deck being 30m for a PCA (weighing about 80kg, jumping a 265 vented Troll). And for that I would require a wide, obstacle free landing area covered preferably with lots of snow or otherwise soft terrain (not concrete). For concrete landing areas I would generally not go below 40m with a PCA. Would be interested to hear about peoples experiences in similar heights with DBAG´s.

Sorry for being OT here, but would this apply when you jump SL aswell? Or do you have other margins there?

Not many people seem to jump dbag, and finding information about it seems to be a little tricky. Good topic to follow.

I personally couldn't be fucked prepping a DBag and then carrying the entire mess to the object without fucking up any of it. I also think you need to be jumping some seriously hardcore shit before a DBag is ever even considered. I know some guys that have used them and swear by them, but they are in a different league to 99% of the people on here.

With the caveat that I haven't tried it, I bet you could put the whole thing in a stash bag and take it out at the exit point without messing anything up. It might be good for something like a building where you've got lots of time to set up and it's very important to be on-heading.

The other advantage is that your canopy flies better when it's not dragging a big pilot chute. I've done a few TARDs with the bridle/PC detached and I could tell a big difference: better glide, more flare, etc.

For me this only applies while jumping PCA´d. I generally prefer always a PCA (from a person that I trust) over SL. If you SL from the top of the bridle (PC attachement loop) your anchor point is about 2m higher that the anchor point while doing a proper PCA. This automatically yields in 2m lower deployment and when going ultra low (say <40m) this margin is significant. This of course can be mitigated by doing a short bridle SL but I have not experimented with them enough that I would have gained so much trust on the system that I would be comfortable to go <40m with SL. Also my gut feeling (this is purely just a feeling, no data to back this up) is that a properly executed PCA gives you "cleaner" deployment and better pressurization and that´s also one of the reasons why I prefer PCA´s when jumping below 50m.

I totally agree with your thinking markus (which always surprises me with you being a dirty finn and all). My personal low on a PCA is 98 ft (30ish m) at 6000 ft altitutde, and I would never go any lower. I feel comfortable with a static line up to about 120 ft. Perhaps this is why there are not many of us that have learned to jump in the last 10 or so years who consider a direct bag to be a piece of equipment worth getting familiar with. That being said, I too would totally try one out at the perrine the next time im in the neighborhood with Tom.

You can just put the D-Bag inside your pack tray and close the container. The assistant can open the pack tray and remove the bag, holding it directly behind your back, just before you step onto the exit point.

Static lines done from the PC attachment point have an unacceptably high premature separation rate (the only two sets of repeated tests I'm aware of found early breakage about 1 in 10 and about 1 in 20). The shock loading of the 10 pound canopy dropped 9 feet is often enough to break the cord.

Static lines should always be rigged as close to the container as possible for the exit point and required climb over.

Hi jws3, I didnt mean to be derogatory. PCA and DB or quite similar when it comes to other than lateral winds
i do think you maybe ask good questions or that is your intent. so pm me nd if there is someting to share the forum, we do it ok?
Take3 care,
Tracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBNNeurrbyU

grocery bag and tape.. PERFECT on header

I seem to remember some one using a pair of jeans with the belt loops for the lines.