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Guys I’m sorry for the rant and I probably shouldn’t be so upset especially being so new to BASE, but following the incidents in Australia and Canada over the last few days (and general approach I see towards jumpers) I have to say and ask a couple of things.
It greatly seems that a lot of the general public does two contradictory things; on the one hand when they see these images of people travelling around jumping they have an admiration for the messages regarding the life created and it’s potential, but as soon as a baser goes in they aim to scald the sport and anyone associated with it. Whether it be from a personal aspect or a legal aspect. Even worse the ammunition for their attack is primarily self created – ie, notions of illegality
I was hoping you might help out with the following questions:
1. Other than organising legal events has anyone had any experience with trying to make a site legal or been able to successfully argue against and reverse the illegalities of a jump?
2. What has been your most successful manner in which you have made someone understand the reasons for your jumping out weights the reasons they believe you shouldn’t?
3. For you is the bigger picture of jumping as important as the jump itself, or is the jump primarily reason enough? (sorry definitely a newbie question)

a) which fatality in Canada ?
b) your profile picture is very interesting, considering the Oz fatality ...

1. http://m.calgarysun.com/2014/01/27/u-of-c-doctor-dies-base-jumping?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=recommend-button&utm_campaign=University+of+Calgary+doctor+dies+base+jumping - Canadian fatality in Arizona - Dr. David Stather - RIP

I used this article for two reasons - 1. as a memory and 2. to show the comments at the bottom of the article

Hmmm nice to know they are reading incidents forum...

That accident was in the United States.

base jumping in itself is not illegal in the US. as is evident by all the legal jumps that are made ie twin falls, earth in WY, UT,AZ..... It is illegal to jump/climb over a fence that says no tresspassing and climb an A. It is illegal to break and enter into a building to jump, but it can be done legally as was evident last year on leap year (red bull stunt). So, they are not illegal. My question to you is, do you have time and energy to go ask for permission (and potentially burn a site), or are you just going to go do your thing when no one sees you, and no one knows or cares. I will stick with staying low and hoping that I can make it thru with no one knowing what I do, or where I do it.

I believe that there actually are now laws written that explicitly ban parachuting from objects in some cities and/or states in the USA.

Yes, but they're not federal laws, aside from the CFR covering the National Park System. Which was John's point, I think.

Oh, so the cops wont give a shit because it's not federal?

It was more regarding the penalties that are associated to trespassing for the purposes of base - I think that some places (Australia in particular) are over the top.

I brought the Australian indecent to light because the police believe that there was another jumper who was there and ran away with the gopro footage. If that is true (i'm speculating) he/she would not have done it if the laws were more relaxed.

Correct.

Police in jurisdictions outside those which have such laws will not enforce those laws, because they do not apply in their jurisdictions.

I see helmets with empty GoPro mounts all the time, often on people's heads.

Agreed. But they also received an anonymous phone call. Look I'm speculating by saying it's another jumper - I'm just going on what the media is saying (and i think most media is nonsense) - But if there is some sense of truth, i believe that the illegality of BASE is it's stigma which gets abused and puts BASE's name through the mud. You don't see this type of approach towards skiing for example. Yes injuries and deaths occur, but a media fiasco isn't made out of it.

I do not see the connection between skiing and base jumping you are trying to make. Look at the few facts that are not in dispute. A base jumper died off of a tower. To get onto that tower, he was trespassing. If there was a fence around it, and a sign, then it was criminal trespassing and that can carry up to a year in jail (at least in the USA), not counting the fines. Now if I was with a buddy, and he went in, and he had a gopro/camera on that showed me in a position that could carry a year in jail for me, I would make sure that camera did not make it into the polices hand.
Skiing is a sport that most people pay money to use the slope. Companies make money on allowing skiing on their slope. Try skiiing at night, without paying and get caught-I am sure the company will charge you with trespassing and you will be fined.

Breaking the law is the risk most of us take, to get our jumps. But if you do not do your homework and know what the potential punishment is if you get caught, then you are jumping in ignorance.

I apologize if this thread is going the wrong direction , but if you jump and have no idea what penalties you can face, then don't whine about how unfair the police are on base jumpers.

You've made a great point about trespassing for the purposes of skiing.

The point I was trying to make is that legal base jumping sites are much more scarce than ski resort, which means that if you want to progress, you have to accept the fact that you will be doing less than legal jumps at some stage. In most cases there is no option of an object being open for jumpers during the day and closed during the night, it's always illegal.

This is problematic for the image (and hence social progression) of BASE for the key reason that:

BASE may move 10 steps forward in people's mentality as an acceptable sport, but as soon as someone is either caught trespassing or dies doing something illegal for the purposes of the sport, BASE ends up being looked down by society and moves 100 steps back.

It is also a bit of a catch 22. most illegal jumps (if not nearly all) have no real construction for the jump. This mean that it makes the jump more dangerous and prone to accidents occurring.

I guess my key observation is that because there are not as many legal sites it make BASE a self perpetuating issue when society and media is taken into account. If we want more legal sites and be an accepted sport we need to confront the fact that we shouldn't be classified as criminals for taking part in a sport that is fitting to our life. Otherwise why not make skiing, rock climbing or even swimming illegal.

you seem to be looking for acceptance by the media and the general public?
and social progression I don't think has anything to do with BASE, there are a few that organise events, but I would say that most just want to jump and have no interest in what the media or the public think

It's got nothing to do with social or media acceptance (I really couldn't care less), it's more to do with sites being closed or hot and the thought of potential future legal sites being opened considered a ridiculous thought.

I'm just trying to minimise risk. And legal sites do that to a certain extent. (obviously no where near completely)

Sadly we live in a society where the majority perception rules. and if we want more legal sites we have to question what is hindering their acceptance of BASE as a sport and to me it seems that the above is doing a fairly good job.

Have you ever jumped from a "less than legal" object?

Who me? no, never... I'm a good boy

But wasn't really where I was taking the discussion

Let's say you have. Would you not agree that you felt like a fucking rockstar after getting away with it? Why change it? I don't really want some of those objects to become legal. Standing at an exit under a full moon in the middle of the night and nobody knows I'm there makes me feel like fucking batman!

I understand and greatly agree with that point, but the point i was trying to make was that the media and government/police are all too happy to critisise jumpers for the illegality of what they do, but at no point have they presented an alternative (in some of these countries places anyway)

And since the majority of the public does not have any other comparison for BASE, it ends up tainting it's name even further.

If this comparison was commercially seen, hopefully when articles like the ones shown above did come to light BASE wasn't tainted, but there was a greater focus on the crime of trespassing by the person.

Why is this surprising? The media comdemns everything that's out of people's scope of normal life and the status quo.

Look at every news title, magazine article, etc. They all say "dare devil" "adrenaline junky" "thrill-seeker", because people need a way to simplify things. If they have a short title to marginalize everything they don't have to think (people in mass scales don't like to have to think logically). It's much easier to understand "adrenaline junky daredevil" than it is to understand how someone works their way to the edge of a cliff that they have previously calculated the time and mental state they need to be in before they pull or what their glide ratio needs to be and leap from it into the calculated unknown.

You're wrong in your assertion that skiing doesn't get demonized. In places like CO and UT, where avalanche deaths are quite common, there is outcry about whose tax dollars go where and people start to have a negative image of the sport (backcountry skiing). Same goes as far as mountaineering and rock climbing. These are things that are out of the general populace's eat work sleep have kids die scope of reality. Therefore, it's much easier to sell something as a negative affect simply than it is to have a good, understanding logical approach for the better.

This is why we, and our European counterparts, have started moving away from the title of BASE jumping and more towards para-alpinism to start applying for and making a movement for gaining access to National Parks. This is of no disrespect to Carl's coined term of BASE, nor do we want to degrade the importance of that title to our sport, however, it is not going to be to our advantage as a community to refer to BASE on permits for gaining access to more areas. There isn't trespassing involved in jumping off natural objects, neither is there any impact on anybody else's well being. Antennas, Spans, and Buldings are generally involving other people whether it's trespassing or landing around traffic. It's understandable why these do not have full blown legal access.

Want to make more spots legal? Here's a good start to what you can do:

-Stop posting illegal shit on facebook. It shocks me how much this "ethic" has dissipated and how much ego has taken place.

-Support people who are trying to get movements going or start your own movement. Contribute both intellectually and physically. I've posted numerous occasions publicly to get people to volunteer a day or a few hours to give ourselves a better image. Not once has anyone ever approached me with that.

-Give the sport a good name by being a good patron. Pick up your trash, being friendly, etc. If you are fortunate enough to have legal objects (especially those made of sandstone) don't leave beer cans on the hikes up or harass others trying to enjoy nature in a different way.

These simple things aren't going to change anything overnight, but it's a damn good start.

I think you should get over the idea that base needs media/social acceptance.
With the recent Epic TV documentary and the WWL, efforts have been made to showcase the positive aspects of the sport however the consequence and cost have also been show in fatalities during both events.
As a jumper, it's easy to overlook or ignore these in persuit of our passions but those who haven't experienced that will probably draw the more accurate conclusion that Base is very selfish and dangerous, when I got into jumping, there was more of an acceptance of this and no one wanted the media messing in their affairs.

And if you are inside the jurisdiction of those that do then they are going to take the opportunity to fist you.

So?

This creates further greater consequences to others that are associated to BASE

Mitchpee - I like everything you said, but I think the above is probably the comment I agree with the most.

It seems that more of us could actively try to create a better image for BASE.

Yes. By keeping it stealth and being spirit-driven, not ego/EpicTV-driven

I agree with being spirit driven over ego, but I disagree with keeping it completely stealth.

I've had a noticeable injury where people ask me what happened and I say mountain biking or snowboarding or quadbiking. It's hilarious how people don't even think twice about it, but if you mention BASE people go nuts with disapproving words and looks.

I want that mentality to change. people to know both the risks and pleasures of BASE and not just be stuck with the status quo of " BASE=Death". I don't think by keeping it completely stealth is going to do that.

Fair enough.

But you have to ask yourself:

1) How much effort will that take;
2) Will it be worth it;
3) Do I want other people to help me to achieve my desire?

1) I think it will take a reasonable amount of effort. Not just through event organisation but also possibly political lobbying - especially against media misrepresentation of BASE and actually opening legal objects.
2) I think it will be worth every bit of effort. - if people truelly understand what BASE is, it will be a powerful tool for future legal and perceptual problems that goes around it at the moment.
3)I think it's important that we group as much as possible for this cause - as to whether jumpers will is another story.

Maybe we should just make BASE as a religion. They can't charge us for participating in a religion if it's not hurting anyone else.

First you're going to have to convince other jumpers that your cause is one worth joining in. Just because you think it's important isn't sufficient to make other people spend their time and effort on it.

That's especially true for those of us who have sunk a lot of time and work into such efforts in the past.

You guys have and still are.

I don't really know what way to begin this other than regulating BASE or making it some kind international body. (which has definitely been discussed many times)

Well that is most probably because comparing base to snow boarding or mountain biking is like comparing shark fucking to stamp collecting. I find it funny how you hobble to work with an injury, lie about what caused it and then get pissed of because u want people to know how safe and nice base is.

Do you really try to convince peeps that BASE is safe? Or even that life is safe?

You realise that if base became accepted like mountain biking or snowboarding that it would become way more popular which means that yes there might be a few more legal exits but you'll soon be paying top dollar for the use of those exits and you'll be standing in a queue to get to them.

And then the complaints on this board will switch from, "I wish base was more accepted" to "I can't believe how crowded so and so exit was on Sunday", "I can't believe all these companies that are jumping on the base bandwagon, Nike now makes a base specific watch" and "I can't jump so and so exit on weekends because some company now hires it out for tandem jumps".
You get the idea...

As the old saying goes, 'be careful what you wish for'.

Disco.

The only way that BASE will become more widely accepted is for it to become more popular (e.g. snowboarding).

For me, that's too high a price to pay. Part of what makes BASE special is it's high barriers to entry and small community.

Like?

Group together and do what?

What, specifically, is your plan of action?

Why do you want to change base? What is it you want changed? Have you gone on a 2-4 hour hike in the mountains with just a few friends, or solo, and made a jump where you would not see anyone for hours? Have you climbed up some slot canyon in the morning light and not heard another sound? You want that changed? As far as antenna's go, who do you think is really going to LET you jump them legally? And if they did, you would PAY for that privilege, and in making this activity that much more known, you in turn will make other A"s that much more inaccessible. Same goes for B's.
Bridges you could make a stand for and try to open more up, but do we really need to? We jump them anyway. And then you have every other object out there that is "unclassified".
I for one do not want base regulated, controlled, or sanctioned. If jumpers had to deal with all the rules that go with sanctioned events at every site one wanted to jump, I think you would simple push the majority of jumpers deeper into the dark. The newer jumpers would go to the "sanctioned" jumps, and typically, newer jumpers have less experience, which in the long run would make base have a worse image.
My question to all the jumpers out there. If the new river gorge event was held monthly-with the same costs/rules/crowd surrounding it at every time, would you go thru the hassle of jumping there?
My last trip there, I had more jumps on the way to the bridge then when I actually got to the bridge.

Hey Mitchpee, for someone who has only been around a few years, you have an excellent perception. I like your post. I knew and jumped with Carl at the beginning of early BASE jumps. True, even though Carl was totally mild mannered, there was a little of rebellion in the first concept of BASE. Everyone knew you were not going to get much permission for buildings and towers, but they presented such obvious choices to a new sport of skydiving off of fixed objects, it was necessary. I also agree with your focus on natural objects in any talks with authorities. Several years ago a group called the CJAA, (cliff jumpers association of america) and later the ABP, (Alliance for Backcountry Parachutists), took the same approach. I totally agree, cliffs are different. Man didn't make them. We don't want to hurt them or pollute the trails. In Norway, there was a real taboo about littering on Troll Mtn. The Troll Gods could get frisky before your jump.
Anyway, good luck with your efforts. It's a hard sell.
Rick H
USBA
38

The general public sees something like this...a BASE jumper with no PR skills giving a well intentioned but poorly executed interview on national television. The reporters tried to help him, but his excitement somehow got the better of him, and he undermined his own credibility. The banter at the end of the interview confirms this.

It doesn't help to imply that BASE jumpers are all doctors, lawyers, fighter pilots and astronauts if the interviewee doesn't present with the polish expected of such professions. It's not really the point anyway.

If you are trying to sell a message of safety and responsibility, you don't claim a conflicting example of "centimetres of margin for error" at freefall speeds and make a lame joke of it. I've never met the guy, so I don't know, but it looked to me like he was trying to hide something.

It's the wrong message anyway. BASE is never "Safe", but it is a minority sport that is readily discriminated against. Smoking is legal, other dangerous sports are legal, etc... This point wasn't made, despite reporters that seem as sympathetic as you would ever get. If you haven't had solid media training, you are unlikely to connect to the target audience. It isn't his first interview, a simple Google search picked up three more.

It may be good to make the effort to promote the sport, but without a solid media and/or public relations background, or a naturally charismatic personality, you'll probably do more damage than good. The message that you think you're giving isn't the one ordinary people receive. Look closely at how the women on the panel reacted.

If you put yourself up as spokesperson for an organisation, you really need to be disciplined in not taking on a role beyond your skill set. National TV slots aren't the place to practice.

Just like you said, people need 200 skydives before they attempt BASE. This was a media off-heading with a cliff strike on your fourth jump. Take some of your own advice, and do some training before you "jump" again.

16:28 - 20:15 on this video.
http://tenplay.com.au/...he-project/2014/1/31
https://soundcloud.com/...jumper-brad-patfield
http://www.theherald.com.au/...ver-heads-to-europe/
http://newsstore.smh.com.au/...NCH121129J36GH3EST60

Thanks for that Rick, we really appreciate all the work you do and have contributed to the BASE community. I have talked a lot with Robin over the past year on this and have tried to take the best approach as possible.

It's tough to watch anything you love progress. Sports often lose their authenticity as they progress into mainstream acceptance. Perhaps the purity and unknown are what drive our spirits to pursue something as dangerous, yet fulfilling, as jumping off a cliff. Whatever it is, it's happened to a lot other sports than base. As we commercialize ourselves and sell our ego to the lowest bidder being "sponsored" athletes for free gear, we ultimately bring this upon ourselves. The train has started and people have begun trying to cash in while you don't have to be the most talented BASE jumper out there, (the best ones are generally the most humble from my experience).

The bottom line is our attention in the spotlight will inevitably grow as we push our limits and more readily expose ourselves over every social media outlet possible. However, we have a chance now to pursue areas that are currently illegal and for invalid reasons. It's still pretty easy for us as a community to mess up our progression. What I see is the future of the sport breaking into the people who like to spend time in the mountains and flying through them. I want to see these people have an outlet for their passion. One in which we have no negative impact on others or their lives. Also, one in which we don't need to fear for repercussions of legal punishment for merely jumping off a cliff in nylon.

@ matt002 – your comment is a pure speculation to how I approach an incident like this and is completely moot.

@ base283 – I’m not trying to convince people it’s safe – it’s not, far from it – I’m trying to show them that their mentality is mainly guided by the law and not an analysis of the sport.

@ Nerra – yes I understand that there is a serious commercial downfall if such were to happen. But I don’t believe enough people will want to become base jumpers and if Nike did make a watch designated for BASE, that would be pretty cool. Can you imagine the technology that will become available for the sport.

@ Jakee – people’s perception greatly affects the consequences that basers feel. In france if you are arrested, you’ll get a slap on the wrist. In Australia you’ll get a conviction. A lot of this is to do with the amount of people doing it and hence the amount of exposure the general public have to it (in an accepting light).

I haven’t come to this forum with a 12 step plan for world domination, I came with a question. To see what the general consensus was.

@ psf – I have experienced a lot of what you have described and I wouldn’t change that for the world. All I was doing was asking questions that show light on what I believe is one of the greatest causes for BASE’s bad name, it’s illicity. And due to the fact that in some countries there isn’t much comparison (or any at all) – that’s all people see.


In relation to what Mitchpee and RickHarrison has said I have one question:

Do you guys think that BASE is an expression of rebellion or a sport?

What if it's both? Or neither?

Rebellion or sport. Well, first, was more rebellion driven by a lust for more adrenaline, ie, the greatest personal rush you could feel and couldn't quite get from planes. As it progressed, it became even more rebellion in the mid 80's as the USPA and many DZ's scorned it and evened banned some BASE jumpers. As time and equipment went on, BASE became safer and hence, more mainstream. It became more acceptable among skydiving organizations since so many people wanted to at least do a few like B Day or Norway. With the Go Fast boys and now Red Bull, the wingsuit races, etc. it is actually becoming sort of a far out sort of twisted sport. Carl started the concept of it as a sport and not a stunt, but it is just now developing into a competitive sport albeit will always be overshadowed by the life and death aspect that is far greater then most "sports".

from what you guys have said it seems that we are in a bit of a cross-roads with the activity.

On the one hand we have the paradigm of the previous paradigm shift from skydiving and on the other we seem to have a paradigm shift once again into a sport.

So similar to how that advancement was embraced from skydiving into a rebellion - shouldn't it now be embraced from a rebellion into into the sport? (not just a psudo-sport that the world tries to make it out)

I've always found BASE to be more of a lifestyle than a sport.

In other words, it's more like being part of a biker gang than like being part of a soccer team.

You just wrote Nike's first BASE commercial

Like a biker gang, except with more drugs and less money.

But it is kind of a pseudo-sport, isn't it? It's unregulated and no-one really owns it or can say "this is the way it should be done". For just about every jumper it is a hobby, I can only think of a handful who has BASE as a "job". And it is still more of a lifestyle than job anyway for those people... And the history and culture of base-jumping varies from place to place, country to country and crew to crew. But I think the real bottom-line is you need to think less about this stuff and jump more

Very well said bro!

Mitch, I know you've done a lot of work with the NPS trying to get access in Zion.

http://www.nps.gov/...sejumperfatality.htm


Does this change your situation down there?

Right On Space. If it wasn't for these "young" guys always wanting to push the old envelope a little further open, us old timers could have a nice safe sport with conservative BASE jumps. Huh? Not like we never pushed any envelopes open huh? Anyway, all extreme sports will always follow the same path as humanity always has. Humans are born adventurers. That's why we're masters of the planet, good or bad. The young and daring always have their place and in sports like ours, it's to see just how far you can open that envelope. I just hope, that the appreciation for life itself can temper some of the risks many jumpers are taking. Guys, I've been doing this longer than most and at some point, we need to get real. At some point, we need to remember that the first goal of any BASE jump is to live through it. Second is the rush or doing something new. BUT, live. We've progressed further than some can cope so I hope all the experts out there give some sage advice to the new wing suiters and BASE jumpers. Let's emphasize not dying. We can have a great time on doing more conservative BASE jumps some of the time. If you really want a rush, hum it once an awhile, but not on most jumps. You can live a lot longer by being a bit more conservative. "Conservative BASE jumps" Spacy, do you suppose anyone other than people like us would even understand that phrase?
Take Care bud.
Rick

 I just saw an interview on the news about Amber Bellows death. It was a short interview with a mean looking, over weight, dark straight and oily hair NPS female ranger. Her cold and callous answer regarding Amber's death was something like,
"Well BASE jumping is now allowed in Zion National Park so she shouldn't have been there in the first place."
That comment was much worse than even "typical" from the Park Service. If I was the Zion Superintendent, that ranger would be disciplined. I can imagine what Amber's new husband and her family thought of that remark.

Probably used to it after the hours of interrogation