Basejumper.com - archive

i will start out saying i do not have all of the answers.

there are a lot of new people wanting to get into base.
all they have to do is come up with some cash and away they go. hop on a plane, fall off a bridge and you are now a base jumper, free to go anywhere and huck anything with no reguards for ethics/ morals/ nothing!!!

there was a day in BASE when you had to find a mentor to get into the sport... period... no other way

what really bothers me is: these fjc students get cleared to solo and then put back into society with no way of judging their skillset or knowing what they are capable of/ or not capable of.

this is a problem, this is why we must have mentors.
i think all of these individuals offering FJCs are ruining the sport and causing more unqualified people to get hurt/dead, and causing undue heat on the rest of us that took the proper channels to get into the sport.

i know the teachers arent purposly out to hurt people, but what they dont realize is they wont be in the home state of the newbies and will not be continuing education with them.
it takes more than a phone call for someone to know a new jumpers abilitys.

i wish all jumpers would be true stewards of the sport and speak up when something isnt right, someone isnt prepared, someone is too intoxicated, someone is in over their head.

if you cant be there to mentor a person you shouldnt take their money in the first place.

i have seen quite a few new graduates from the bridge that lack in every skillset needed to stay alive, and quite frankly they scare me.

do any of the fjc teachers go over ethics?
how are students suppose to call the locals if they only know their fjc teacher.what about leaving places the way you found them?

this new generation of entitled jumpers needs to be educated properly and the people who are inproperly enabeling them needs to be stopped.

lets go back to finding a mentor and learning the right way. mentors can choose to keep the doushebags out.

I am one of the new generation of jumpers
I didn't find a mentor, I travelled half way across the globe twice, once for the pressurized course and once for Tom's course
I have been taught ethics, I have called locals before jumps, I leave no trace, I have jumped with people who have come through the same route as me and people that have had mentors. I in no way feel entitled or feel the need to huck myself of anything regardless of morals
And I am fucking sick of all the new jumpers being put in the same boat, if you have seen somebody that scares you name them, we are not all the same

On my FJC there was a whole session just on ethics.

I'm really pleased that I did a good FJC. I learned heaps.

Frank.

-
Hey !!! . Nobody likes a Tattletale .
.

BASE Ethics and codes of conduct are placed on all jumpers of BASE activity with loose guidelines being defined by the majority group of jumpers . But ALL BASE jumpers at one time or another will bend the rules to fit the needs of the day . Also does not matter whether the jumper is possessing high morals . Or a DirtBag without morals void of principals . Or is a Beginner or Expert .
.

I want to be the Steward of Adventure!

Steward is a funny word in BASE . A steward is someone that is 'entrusted' with the 'care of ' .
None is the steward of BASE . All who 'Bandit Jump' have BASE jumped by seizing the moment in whatever form they can create at that time. And most times illegalities are involved . How about we just all agree in replacing Ethics and Steward of BASE . with the phrase of, 'use your Best Judgment ' when BASE jumping .
.

Outtabounz i like your style.

you just sound like a grumpy old man

they might be annoying thats true but the reality is virtually none of these new guys are going in, especially not on your normal slider down jumps. so they can't be that bad can they.

Was there a recent event that prompted this?
Or a crop of newbies? Or a particular teacher?
Specific object burned? Or just commentary
on general direction BASE training is going?

I agree, a mentor who teaches you for years
at a variety of locations and object types is
much better than 3 to 6 days at the Perrine.

{/green} including for your convenience

not everyone has a variety of locations and object types

Sorry that was not clear, variety of locations
comes from traveling with your students to
other states and/or countries.

i want to be the "professor" of adventure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

quoted to test

Base jumpers and Ethics is an oxymoron.

Ethics are only relevant until a rule gets in the way.

Like using a elevator and leaving it at top? Cutting a padlock? Knocking a hole in a wall? Trying to make money/sponsorship from rad jumps? Bringing non jumpers to watch?

That was just last week!

In my experience, one of the most important factors in how other jumpers react to ethical breaches is the popularity of the jumper in question. New guys, or people who aren't popular, tend to get the most criticism. People who are "cool" or just well liked tend to get more free passes. It's sad, but it's the way things tend to work.

Getting hurt and burning sites are 2 different things. Sometimes they are related, sometimes not.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCHGcAQgjMY

I want to be the professor of stewardship

I, the Professional Athlete, dub thee El Professor of Stewardship...inside of you.

I want to be the adventurer of stewards!

I was under the wrong impression that having a mentor was a pre-requisite for a FJC...has it never been like that?

I think the opposite makes more sense. That every mentor should insist their mentee also take a FJC.

Even for the lucky ones who find a good mentor, more can always be learned from the perspective of another teacher.

Why are my letters green? Damn it!

These two statements are worth repeating. Well said.

Not as far as I know. I was interested in BASE for years. One day I was ground crewing for friends and one mate said he would PCA me one day if I did a FJC first.

how many mentors are you aware of that would travel internationally with their mentee? to locations obviously below the mentor's ability and places you would imagine the mentor has been before

or are you saying that travelling should be part of the FJC instructors role?

I agree to some degree in what you say but if what you write here is true then the fatalitylist should be filled with lowtimers and not wingsuits?

The OP (who I know and have jumped with at
1 B, 3 As, 1 S, 2 Es) framed this discussion
around the benefits of a Mentor over an FJC.

I made no comments about what I expect
the duties/role of an FJC Instructor to be.
I personally took an FJC in 2006 because
there were zero mentors within 4 hours of
my location, but I promise you I would've
much preferred to have one experienced
jumper with me from jump 1 thru BASE.

I have taught maybe a dozen virgins how
to BASE jump, I do not offer a traditional
FJC, instead I provide Mentorship for a fee.

Meaning if I teach someone then he or she
must be local or willing to travel such that
we're able to jump multiple objects together
before I clear them to solo BASE jump.

I am NOT saying I have answer or my way
is the best, I am simply sharing my opinion
that I see what the OP is saying that having
a Mentor with you for a year is better than
having Tom A, Chuma, and/or Jimmy P
show me how to jump the Perrine bridge.

A good instructional program should do a lot more than just show you how to jump a single object (any single object).

yep but you didn't answer my question
how many mentors are you aware of that would travel internationally with their mentee? to locations obviously below the mentor's ability and places you would imagine the mentor has been before

The steward of BASE just is not quite enough . The Steward of your 'public' property is better . The NPS .
.

I do not know, maybe a few? For me personally
BASE is not always about going lower or throwing
multiple aerials or wingsuiting or proximity flying.

I also think there are some objects/places that
can provide fun for people with different skills
antennas, ITW, KL, and a few exits in Moab.

But basically you are right, most new jumpers
who do not have a BASE jumper for a friend or
a bunch of money would never be lucky enough
to have an experience guy there to help them.

You are right to a point and some luck is needed when starting BASE . If the planets did not align correctly for someone wanting to start BASE jumping it could be an epic struggle even if they were a real self motivated individual .
For me it was luck and fate in the very beginning, when a few of us just kind of showed-up all at the same time and place . We were beginners & very low-time, hungry and motivated to jump anything and It all just kind of fell into place like it was meant to be . I look back now and it was unpredictable & million to one that we all just stepped onto the same path, walking the same direction. at same time . It made the fight a lot more smoother .
.

I hope you, and other instructor/mentors, have put some thought into liability protection.

[rant]I disagree with every thing you pointed out, almost. I had nothing but a dream of escaping the confines of contact with everything. to jump off the gardenshack of my neighbor's at te age of 4. And yes, I hate the 'goproyoutubeheroIII' mentality. GTYT#3
there was a day in BASE when there were no mentors or BASE gear... We did it anyway. Not waiting like sheep to be told which direction the edge was or how we should approach it. We took it upon ourselves. Not only to find the edge. But how to find one's way that direction. People tried and people died.
It worked for me.
Now, people are scared to modify to a SDLRM because lack of rigging skills for example. Steward of BASE? yeah that works for a short time. Then it is time to get back to the Basics and jump for the dream. There's been too many peeps being a steward for the sport and too few to listen because they are too busy dying to get to the edge.
Is this a guy thing? I dont know...
Should we abolish all courses and let every one figure it out for themselves, and lets kill youtube while we are at it?

Life for me aint living on the edge.It's about gazing over it. How many times is one going to ambassidorized the sport and watch/hear of peeps going down because they just wouldn't effin listen again and again and again and maintain their sanity But to each their own[/rant]
Take care
tracy

I don't know what Chuma, Jimmy, or Brandon do.
Tom A. has them write a letter to their family as
if they just died while BASE jumping. I personally
video them, like Perris Valley and Bridge Day.

listening to bjers trying to figure out how to avoid fatalities is like listening to alcoholics trying to figure out how to avoid hangovers.
My friends taught me that i need to embrace the hangover, I never could so for the most part I stopped drinking (true story).

Sorry, both those statements make a little bit of sick rise into my throat.

"Sorry, both those statements make a little bit of sick rise into my throat. "

I feel the same about AFF instructors.

I wish I could simply "like" this.

I'm an AFF instructor.


And could likely be convinced to jump tonight

Personally, I don;t think a waiver can hold up to a persistent lawyer. Even if it does your lawyer fees trying to defend yourself will be huge and most likely put you in financial ruin. A waiver will not do anything for negligence on your part either. Shit happens and if I were teaching people, I would look into other, stronger means of liability and asset protection.

Sweet..... Next time any of your "students" go in remind me to send the next of kin your contact info since you are paid for your services.
Since you "cleared them to go solo"
Instead of showing the jury the waiver you can show them the video insrtucting them on an illegal object thats yours

Smart move Newton.....

What are you? A cop?

That information is classified.

Sweet..... Next time any of your "students" go in

Hey, Fuck-Face,

NONE OF MY STUDENTS have bounced!!

"Quotes" around students is inappropriate or rude.

You mis-spelled PAID.

What's your name?

Everybody knows you have to answer if somebody directly asks you that

My name is Matt. I heard you know a lot about cliff chuting in the Southwest desert, will you guide me. I'm not a virgin but we can pretend. ;-)

Hi Matt, nice to meet you. Since Tom took it upon himself to speak on national news about an incident that had nothing to do with him, at a site in your backyard that he's never been too, it's only fair that you do the same when an incident happens at one of his objects that you've never been too.
As he so distastefully stated during said interview: " theres nothing like standing on the edge thinking this might be the last thing you ever do.."

Thanks for the positive representation Tom! Nothing says responsible like the 'ol Jeb bit, death death dying death!

You took a girl to Moab after a few bridge jumps and I only know that because she skydives around here. I hardly call that mentoring.

Not a big deal with the right experience. Which she lacked entirely. Pikey, why don't you elaborate on the young womans skydiving history for those who dont know..

She was more than qualified to start BASE jumping I believe as far as jump "numbers" (damn quotations getting in the way of things again) go. But I don't know about how much personal prep she had done. Any canopy control stuff etc.

I was just kinda mad when I saw he took them all to Moab after this FJC and posts a video of himself that said "my new favorite cliff" (again, sorry for quotations) and he was going hand held off of Mary's. His heart was beating very hard in his chest, so hard you could hear it! Doesn't sound like your typical mineral bottom tour guide to me.

I had the same sentiment when I saw that as well.

I felt it was pretty inappropriate to take students straight from their first bridge jumps to Moab.

Or were they already cleared for solo by then?

Is this the same young woman who accidentally flew her wingsuit out to sea at sebastian?

I give up...

You guys win.

No comment! I refuse to be played like a puppet.









Yes.

you mean the one that on her 15th -ish ws jump. She Landed 1 mile out, with no cut away or attempt to get out of gear ( because she was afraid to loose it) , some friends of mine had to borrow a kayak to rescue her because she was waiting for the coast guard…….

Screw jump numbers, everyone knows boobs are the number one qualifier for starting BASE...duh

He didn't take her to Moab. She had already decided that she was going there, she had even gone and borrowed gear from another individual.

I thought the original discussion of mentors/FJC or combinations was a good one. Though also perhaps, one should also think about if you own gear, who you let borrow or you sell that gear, would be just as relevant to how the discussion turned.

There's a saying "you can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drink" and it is completely untrue. It was all the support she needed to tag along with that group. I discussed it with her.

NO ONE took me anywhere, i took myself! I would appreciate my friends NOT being blamed for what i do by MYSELF!

again i would like to say NO ONE took me anywhere I D0 NOT HAVE A MENTOR!!

this post is awesome. it is also remarkably ironic in many ways.

i would just like to point out, that while everyone is entitled to an opinion (which coincidentally i don't care to hear) this topic:

1. was started by someone talking about how it used to be with a BASE number of almost 1600!

2. has been debated since the FJC was born some time ago. news flash, BASE is an unregulated activity. whether you agree or disagree, people are free to do what they wish.

3. has managed to bring up real debate in "mentoring" ethics, and has also managed to bring up the old "hey it's my first post here, but i want to defend someone anonymously"

4. again raises the fact that wherever a set of tits are, there'll be some dude to lay out the carpeted short cuts for them.

D. fuck you


please continue.

i would appreciate if you would get your facts straight before talking crap. 2 girls landed in the ocean yes i was one of them BUT i landed with my friend after chasing her for flying the wrong way. I knew she would panic so i landed with her, i have zero regrets and would land in the ocean for anyone of my friends! Had you been there you would have seen i was the one laughing swimming in with ALLLLLLLL of my gear (with help from friends). I kept quiet because i refuse to throw my friends under the bus unlike everyone else that seems to have no problems with that or talking shit. If you are concerned about how i fly my wingsuit your more than welcome to come fly with me..THEN you can pass judgement and say what you want.

Agreed. Just being on the load shows encouragement and acceptance. Even approval. I have avoided loads in certain situations because I did not agree with who was going or what was going on. I think a "steward of BASE" would have better judgement than to just go along with something they did not agree with. That is of course IF they did not agree with it.

How about before you make arrogant, dumbass, sexiest remarks like this you come jump with me so you can eat you words. I have managed to prove im capable of handling myself to every arrogant jerk, you wont be the first or the last.

To be fair, maybe he had her do running exit practice and she was solid all around.

The 1600 BASE number thing is hilarious. Get off my lawn...

Dani im sorry but im calling bullshit
you didn't chase anybody to land near her.
you crabbed sideways into the wind after opening so far out and didn't make it back to the beach when several other jumpers pulled much lower than you and made it back. you where half a mile away from the other girl who also landed in the ocean and waiting, still hooked up to your gear and in your wing suit waiting " for the coast guard" you complained several times how nobody came to get you from the drop zone.

i always wanted to ask you why you where not swimming back when the OP came to get you with the borrowed kayak.

No one has ever laid at a carpet for me i have had to work TWICE as hard to earn what i have and get where i am at. I do not have a BASE mentor because no way in hell would i want someone to get publicly blasted (which apparently all it takes is barely knowing me for that to happen). When I jumped in Moab Tom barely even knew me, he was a friends mentor and had ZERO to do with anything i did. I have and will always take full responsibility for my actions, anyone who knows me knows there is no way in HELL anyone can make me do something i don't want to or am not comfortable with. I will continue jumping without a mentor for reasons like this. I am sick of people insulting my friends for MY actions because they happened to be in the same area as me.

call bullshit because your wrong i have the video of me laughing and the girl that landed a mile out and had the kayak get her WASNT me! i was the one who landed almost to shore.

i NEVER once complained that no one came to get me, and actually i bought beer for my friends because i felt bad that they had gotten in the water. im sorry your confusing 2 very stories but seeing as im the one who landed in the water and videoed the whole thing i think i know what happened.

be that as it may, i was only pointing out fact. maybe or maybe not fact for you and your situation, but it is a fact of life. it is science.

the other interesting thing about having a carpet laid out for you though, is many times people are so clueless they don't realize that is what is happening.

i also don't know or care where you are "at", in BASE or life. i'm not sure what you are quantifying as "TWICE as hard" but be assured that it is in your mind.

fuck me, i'm getting trolled on this shit again... too much oxy and wine has got me internet arguing... haha

seriously... i really don't care, about anything.

see you retards at bridge day where people know who i am and like to party!

I had seen the video, and spoken with both the people who landed in the water and those who went out to help them. One was calm and still in her gear and the other was cutting away without disconnecting the RSL and panicking and calling for the coast guard. It sounds like you are mixing up the two people or possibly merging the stories.

Multiple times this 'cleared to solo' has appeared in this thread. Am I being retarded here, since when does anyone in BASE get 'signed off to solo'? That term does turn my stomach, its bulshit, and if you are of a view that you are in a position to give the all clear to someone, then sorry, you don't understand the spirit of BASE.

I thought the idea of an FJC, or under guidance of a 'mentor' (on a side note, I think that this word is banded around too much, proper mentoring isn't done for money, isn't done as a laid out program of lessons on Wednesdays and Thursdays, its a state of being in a relationship to transfer knowledge and ethos to nurture a new jumper into a fully grown up decision making responsibility taking free spirit who doesn't need 'signing off'), is to give to new jumper the skills to make well thought out decisions.

Some FJCs teach only how to make a jump on certain objects, some teach you awareness of self in that you don't know what you don't know, some teach how to jump a range of individual objects. The best ones are the ones that have you think, have you walk away knowing you aren't ready to go out alone flicking Es and Bs, without 'signing you off'.

If you are a mentor charging for your services (meaning over and above expenses), then sorry you are not a mentor, you are running a long winded jumping course. Mentoring isn't charging a service, its supporting and nurturing people, not running an AFF-esque tick sheet on how to BASE jump.

Tom is getting shit for going to Moab and taking new jumpers with him, to be honest, I don't think that's the issue, the issue was that the mentoring/teaching was obviously flawed, as not one new jumper took a moment to stop and say 'I'm not ready"?

This is meant to be about personal choice, about making good decisions, and flicking a cliff or a building because your mentor / tutor takes you and says its ok, fuck me, there's a gap in the method of instruction there.

Maybe if the teaching and mentoring taught decent decision making process and risk analysis, there would be less 200 jump skydivers in an X-Bird in the valley...?


I remember back in the day I asked a very experienced jumper about if I should jump a building I had my eye on, he didn't say no, he didn't say yes, he just asked me to think, to plan, and to look deep into myself and be truthful without listening to ego on whether I was ready... I waited a little longer to jump that B.

If he had said 'no', I would have jumped it. If he had said yes, I would have jumped it. Instead he gave advice I think is an example of a mentor. That was the only time I had ever asked another person if I should make a jump.

FWIW - I did a CR FJC @ Perrine, and went out alone without a mentor or hand holder.

But hey, what do I know... I'm a retired Limey.

fucking spot on Mac.

Sweet. To stop your friend panicking you landed a mile away from her, in the sea.

Did it help?

probably helped socially afterwards when they were discussing why it happened.

This May or may not be relevant...

After getting my jumps, I waited a year and a half before turning them in for my card because it is something that doesn't define me or my jump numbers or knowledge or ethics or anything other than I jumped off some stuff with a parachute. We all know that some people can go out and get a number with less than ten jumps, that doesn't mean that because they got their number two years ago they are more qualified than someone who got their number last week after getting 150 jumps.

+1 Mac.

Funny thing here is Roots did pay for a FJC (hopefully not thru Tom (GM). Yet he bags on them.

Tom (GM) also does the same yet he charges a Mentorship "Fee".... WTF is that? Sounds like a FJC to me.

So... in a way Roots is bad mouthing Tom (acting as a FJC) and Tom is defending Roots in that it's ok to return to mentors as long as you charge a fee? Cause FJC can't teach someone how to jump? WTF you smoke down there?

And the jumper(female) really has nothing to do with it. She's a adult and can make those decisions on when/where/who to jump with. But if Tom charged her a "fee" to go out to Moab sounds like..... an "ADVANCED FJC". at which point she should have gone with APEX!

Sounds like these two are sleeping with each other at exit points "for a fee" which in some states is illegal (not Nevada)

How does a "student" get "cleared to solo"????

Skydiving:
AFF course. "Clear for self supervision"

BASE:
Hell I don't know. The jumper will do what he wants anyway if he so chooses.

I don't know the intent of what he said so it could very well be what he feels. Does he actually clear for a solo or ... does he feel this person can do as they wish but probably should seek additional help?

Who knows.

I've taken a few people on first jumps and somewhat mentored a few people but only out of circumstance.

I've had people call me mentor when they've clearly been taught by someone else, had enough jumps to do their own thing.

One person keeps saying I'm their mentor when the only thing I did was help clean up some rigging habits.

You're my mentor and all you've done is help me buy a rig that has sat in storage for more than a year!

Yep. You're not cleared to have the key to the storage locker.

What if we turned the key at the same time? You know, go tandem?

No

Yes

Fuck off.

Tom, please lock this thread. My mentor is being abusive to me

tim, you are my EMT mentor, as you have taught me what to do next time i break/badly sprain my ankle.....

its all about the stirrup and a fuckload of sports tape!!!

You're drunk but yes! That is a great way to support the ankle. You're welcome.

You get a pass, I'm sure you're drunk posting using your phone.

What's up with the Bin Laden harem girl outfit at 0:36 ?

When I saw dangerous and sexy photo shoot I was expecting Roberta Mancini. This was kind of a let down. Don't feel like I can criticize her even though I agree with you since I have 0 BASE experience and clearly BASE girl does.

Something about the video is really off putting though.

I have to admit that when I saw this somewhat similar video a while ago, I really liked it:

http://iloveskydiving.org/...base-jumping-chicks/

but maybe that was because it was unique at the time. I never saw anything like it before. I didn't think it was going to be a whole new direction for some people in BASE.
.......or maybe i was just cuz they were hotter... I don't know. but some of these new videos make it look like anyone who can jump off of a step can BASE.

I was searching the old threads for BASE ethics and how to be a Steward of BASE but all I found were old BASE75 posts. Seems reasonable enough as a starting point!

I've tried that a couple of times. No results except for a lot of people to declare that that is none of my business, and in same cases it was a lot more uncensored than that. They don't want to be educated, they already have all the answers So they have 2 ways really, they make it, get experienced and realize how incredibly stupid they were, or they die. Not much you can do about it, really.

Dadsy I'm with you on this completely - Especially in Australia it's ridiculous trying to find someone that's willing to mentor, but it doesn't mean that we don't respect ethics or just throw ourself off anything.

@ roostnureye

If there is an "old gen vs new gen" debate - personally I'm a little upset with the amount of "old gens" that want the "new gen" to follow this code of ethics, while they can't follow one simple element of it - mentoring - This is a sport where you learn by the teaching of others - if you "old gen" guys don't teach, then we are left to teach ourselves.

Mac Everything you said is awesome!

dadsy it is in my opinion that is your job to do the traveling and paying your dues. Like must of have. There are many really cool folks that might not mentor you but you can learn from. It seems like you might be a little cocky and mad. Smile and learn and not from fucking u-tube.

Peace and good luck be safe listen learn and it will be a great ride...

My point was dont judge new people into the sport as one, as I said we are not all the same