Basejumper.com - archive

Incidents

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American in Swiss
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/bfl-220

Anyone know anything about this? I have a few friends over there right now...
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Re: [bluhdow] American in Swiss
So far there is no police report.

http://www.police.be.ch/
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Re: [BASE_1007] American in Swiss
Yeah man. He is from SD. Second one in 5 days. I hate to say it because I knew him, but he did not have the experience to be in the Valley to begin with being his 10th BASE jump was his last.
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Re: [bluhdow] American in Swiss
Rumors abound extreme low experience...coments anyone?
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Re: [BASEMenace2] American in Swiss
Yes, see my post above.
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Re: [douchekiller] American in Swiss
Holy shit...

Rough few days for the SD dropzone.

Unsure
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Re: [bluhdow] American in Swiss
10 jumps and BFL says wing suit? Is this correct?
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Re: [BASEMenace2] American in Swiss
One Word: DARWIN
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Re: [BASE-603] American in Swiss
another word:
linetwists
and another:
powerlines.

dont be so quick to judge
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Re: [avenfoto] American in Swiss
And some more:
Eleven
Jumps
Venom
WTF
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Re: [BASE_1007] American in Swiss
BASE_1007 wrote:
So far there is no police report.

http://www.police.be.ch/

Now there is also a police report for this : http://www.police.be.ch/...mpertoedlichverletzt

The police report says the jump was done from Yellow Ocean and the deceased was a 28 year old US citizen who for unknown reason opened his parachute too late.

BSBD!
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Re: [maretus] American in Swiss
Guys his family only found out a few hours ago...

let the thread go for a few days and I will update the list in 6 days with the information.

A jumper has died in the valley

Due to not listening to friends and also
running a wingsuit on his 10-11th jump..

Its simple guys

Thread finished...
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Re: [avenfoto] American in Swiss
If the rumors are true, 603's judgment still stands.

Where the hell was this guys friends? There aren't many exits worse then Yellow Ocean for a low experience wingsuiter. Totally senseless, I don't think you can even call it an accident.

Curious if this was the first wingsuit attempt or if he had managed to survive one before.

Is SD Skydive San Diego?
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Re: [nickfrey] American in Swiss
nickfrey wrote:
There aren't many exits worse then Yellow Ocean for a low experience jumper.
Fixed it for you.
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Re: [nickfrey] American in Swiss
Do you think his friends are to blame?

nickfrey wrote:
Where the hell was this guys friends?
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Re: [base428] American in Swiss
base428 wrote:
Do you think his friends are to blame?

nickfrey wrote:
Where the hell was this guys friends?
I would say yes. Then again maybe he didn't have any true friends, at least none that were prepared to knock him on his ass.
Where was 3-2-1 BASE on this one? I thought they went around the Valley confiscating gear from the 10 jump guys?
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Re: [Fledgling] American in Swiss
This is tragic, I would love to say I feel sweet F$#k all for this guy, but in truth when I read stories like this it makes me really sad.

My thoughts go out to friends and family.

Friends and people on the exit point are not to blame, even if they egged him on, no one kits you up but yourself... end of story. You chose to jump, you chose the conditions, you take the responsibility. I don't know where this recent passing on the responsibility to others came from but it's bull sh!t
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Re: [bluhdow] American in Swiss
Just on a side note:
swiss is a nationality, not a country.
The name of the country is Switzerland, and I am Swiss...
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Re: [bluhdow] American in Swiss
Thanks.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
He worked with me for a full season last year. He bought a base rig without much knowledge of the sport. I believe he said he did one static line a year before that. After numerous attempts of asking me to take him jumping I believe he went out by himself to my object. Never asked him anything about it. Just from his attitude and mentality at the dropzone I wanted nothing to do with it. Very sad what happened. He was a good kid and meant well. Not surprised by his actions though and I hope people out there learn from his mistake. This should have never happened. :/
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Re: [BASE1375] American in Swiss
This is sad and tragic.
After visiting the dz beginning of the year the 2 recent incidents unfortunately reflect the wingsuit mentality at this dz.
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Re: [BASE1375] American in Swiss
BASE1375 wrote:
He bought a base rig without much knowledge of the sport. :/


And again,

If "we" really want to stop these type of incidents then we need to look further than our own back pockets.
Check who you are selling your old kit to, Manufactures check who you sell new kit to.


Laters

Julian
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Re: [B52] American in Swiss
B52, perhaps you should fill out your profile and identify yourself before making spurious claims about a "mentality" you gleaned from a DZ visit 9 months ago as your first post on this site.

- Brian
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Re: [Mikki_ZH] American in Swiss
Mikki_ZH wrote:
Just on a side note:
swiss is a nationality, not a country.
The name of the country is Switzerland, and I am Swiss...

would Suisse work better for you?
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
jools wrote:
If "we" really want to stop these type of incidents then we need to look further than our own back pockets.
Check who you are selling your old kit to, Manufactures check who you sell new kit to.

I've been contacted by jumpers looking for BASE instruction who had never made a skydive, but had already purchased a full BASE system from a major manufacturer. Given that, I'm not sure how much difference it will make if individual jumpers police their sales. No matter how much we all try, if a new rig is just a credit card away, it won't help much.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
If such jumper was my friend, I would make sure his rig is unpacked each time he wants to jump.
Sad times for the whole sport
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
[If "we" really want to stop these type of incidents then we need to look further than our own back pockets. Check who you are selling your old kit to, Manufactures check who you sell new kit to. ]

I agree Julian, when I sold my old rig I made sure the youngster I sold it to had a mentor I trusted to at least give him a fighting chance. I generally proceed with similar caution when I sell guns private party (i.e. no background check), something I've done a lot more times than selling rigs. In either case, it's about keeping my conscience clear by acting in what I think is a responsible manner.

That said, with great freedom comes great responsibility, first and foremost to oneself. For me, BASE is one of life's purest expressions and celebrations of freedom, and I imagine many other jumpers feel the same. Ultimately, what a jumper does, whether he's got one jump or 1000 is his responsibility, for better or worse.

We all remember the powerful hunger we felt in the infancy of our jumping. In some this manifests in the desire to progress too quickly, especially among the young, and those of us fortunate to survive this period probably have at least one story where we took a big dip in to the luck bucket because of it. Mine involves breaking several vertebre, but otherwise being fine (swooping not BASE, but the mentality was the same). Six months in a back brace will do a lot to adjust your attitude.

My hope is that potential new jumpers will bear witness to this and other similar incidents and slow the fuck down. I hope more of them will be patient and wise enough to seek proper guidance, and persistent and fortunate enough to find it, so they can enjoy BASE and everything else life has to offer for a very long time.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
Exactly, hence the request for manufactures to check too.

I understand the need to turn a profit for the manufactures to develop, improve and simply keep manufacturing.

With the huge growth in new jumpers I am sure losing the odd sale to those who will never bother with mentors or FJC
will not affect the profit margins massively.
However if major legal sites are closed the number of jumps put on kit will reduce and therefore the number of jumpers requiring replacement kit will drop.

I suppose some will always put quick returns before longevity.

Laters

Julian
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
TomAiello wrote:
but had already purchased a full BASE system from a major manufacturer.

...Sorry, if that's true, and regular, that's fucking outrageous. Yes freedom, yes self-regulated, but that approach by the manufacturers isn't acceptable.

I vetted like fuck when selling gear, I was also vetted when applying for my FJC by CR in 2001.

When did $/£/€/¥ blindness occur?
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Re: [BASE1375] American in Swiss
BASE1375 wrote:
I believe he went out by himself to my object. Never asked him anything about it. Just from his attitude and mentality at the dropzone I wanted nothing to do with it. Very sad what happened. He was a good kid and meant well. Not surprised by his actions

I think here you provide a clue.

People are asking, "How could his friends let him jump?"
People are also questioning manufacturers gear sales policies?
Believe it or not a person with 0 skydives could buy a skydiving rig and huck himself out of a friend's aircraft, and someone else could steal a skydiving rig and attempt a BASE jump (Hmmm?),.. if they were motivated enough.
Heck, here in Norway a country with strict gun control someone even managed to acquire an automatic weapon and slaughter almost a hundred innocent people a couple of years ago???

Not too long ago when I knew him he was working as a packer in Colorado, he didn't have much skydiving experience but the last time I saw him he was heading to California with the intention of learning to be a swooper.
I really liked him,..... "Very sad what happened. He was a good kid and meant well. Not surprised by his actions. "

So Sad, We all make our own choices, I don't think we should run around trying to find someone else to blame.

Regards, B.
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Re: [1064] American in Swiss
i think that with every new rig sold the should include a DVD of "bridge to no where"

I myself have only 16 jumps and because i am not sure of any "safeish"(not too techinical) objects around where i live, i just go to the bridge for now (which is about a grand every time) just because i don't want to be stupid.

but i think people should see some bad shit to make them understand that you don't rush into this.
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Re: [StealthyB] American in Swiss
Yes we live in a free to kill yourself world but you can try to make it harder for people to get rigs, guns, etc.

It used to be standard practice to vet sales of both new and used kit.
I, like Mac, had to provide references when i bought my first rig. Now lets not be so naive to presume that that some friend with the best intentions will not stand as a reference for a friend who should not be near an exit for their own safety.

People are screaming about losing exits, friends should stop them, self regulations, well the easiest way to stop someone from jumping is to stop them buying kit, remove the problem at source.
Yes people will steal. lie etc but I am sure we can REDUCE the number but I agree we will never stop it totally.

Laters

Julian
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
Controlling sales ( rigs , canopies , suits) ?!

When nothing smarter can come out from BASE community , such idea gets out again ( every 5-6 years. Bless for those who has time in sport longer than 5 years.)
Manufacturers are LAST line of defense not the first line of defense. Customer can sign 100 wavers and what?? Can lie about everything...

Such things will happened more and more because of the simple fact . Mentality of BASE jumpers has changed. Expectations what BASE can bring to an individual has change....
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Re: [robibird] American in Swiss
+1


robibird wrote:
Controlling sales ( rigs , canopies , suits) ?!

When nothing smarter can come out from BASE community , such idea gets out again ( every 5-6 years. Bless for those who has time in sport longer than 5 years.)
Manufacturers are LAST line of defense not the first line of defense. Customer can sign 100 wavers and what?? Can lie about everything...

Such things will happened more and more because of the simple fact . Mentality of BASE jumpers has changed. Expectations what BASE can bring to an individual has change....
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Re: [robibird] American in Swiss
Obviously an objective and unbiased point of view.

Are you seriously suggesting it is ok to sell BASE rigs to people without ANY parachuting experience whatsoever?

Keep taking the dollars for now but don't moan if the valley is closed and your sales drop right off.

Oh and to be clear, I don't care if the Valley closes, I have never been and probably never will. In fact I half wish it would close.

You can keep your sliders and keep your WS they are not my cup of tea.

Laters

Julian
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
sure not!
You tell me how AdrenalinBase , Apex or MT can control that?!
Tell me?! But tell me something I haven't heard yet please!
You live in free country and what I can do if you say you know how to BASE or skydive and have this or that much jumps.
Should I be your mama and call around and checking who you are and what you are up to?! No!
I count on common sense the homo sapiens has or mostly has. Those who have trouble realizing that they are doing something wrong isn't my problem.
On the Earth only one thing is distributed correctly!
Maturity!! Each individual think that it has just enough of it!
BTW, I like to know with whom I talking...
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Re: [robibird] American in Swiss
In reply to:
I count on common sense the homo sapiens has or mostly has. Those who have trouble realizing that they are doing something wrong isn't my problem.

Basically leave it up to Darwin, and let the balance and formulas adjust?

In reply to:
You tell me how AdrenalinBase , Apex or MT can control that?!

CR & BR & Vertigo & Morpheus used to screen people taking FJCs or buying gear... Has this changed, and if so, why?
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
Hi Jools, I guess what I am trying to say is that if someone wants to kill themselves or someone else, there is really no stopping them, they will find a weapon, and they will find a way.
I have known Marta at Vertigo/Apex for more than 20yrs and watched her struggle with this issue of trying to control the people she trained and dealt gear to, and quite honestly, it became impossible,,, completely beyond her control and she was very ethical and conscientious to the point of denying sales of equipment and enrollment in courses, ( still is incidentally).
I side with Robbi and the manufacturers, it isn't about money, his products came out of his passion for this sport, and we are all better off, because the sport will continue to expand it's parameters regardless.
We can hope to educate, but in this era of endless media influence, you will still have 9? year old kids jumping off buildings with umbrellas or whatever home made facsimile of what they think a Parachute is.
I am not surprised by this latest fatality, and as much as we all wish we could spot and control this, we just can't prevent misguided individuals in today's media influenced society from acting irrationally. That said we should do what we can within our limited ability.
Regards and respect, B.
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Re: [StealthyB] American in Swiss
I'm not sure a discussion of selling/not selling gear is appropriate in this case.

The jumper in question was an experienced skydiver who was working in the industry. I find it hard to believe that anyone would have denied him gear or training. With, at a minimum, several hundred skydives, he would have passed on most criteria.
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Re: [Mac] American in Swiss
Problem is number of jumpers is increasing exponentially, while access to objects seems to be decreasing steadily. At least from my perspective in U.S. (my perspective is a smaller field of vision than the "experienced" guys around, but is my observation) I think of how many objects around "used" to be jumpable compared to those that "have yet" to be burned to the ground. If that continues, eventually there will be so few objects left to jump (or at least without seriously high bust risk) that the Darwin effect will apply more to the object access, not the jumpers. (relative to number of total jumpers)

The euro legal objects are incredible and relatively plentiful, but obviously LB seems to be getting hotter and hotter by the minute. How many jumpers will there be in 5 years if the last 10 years is any indication of the rate of increase? If this access "is" ever closed, how long will it take for the huge amount of jumpers redirected to the other legal sites to do the same to those spots?


I think the punch in the face on the trail to yellow is a good method. The new https://www.facebook.com/...eatherBase?ref=br_tf page is perhaps a good start a some sort of movement to self regulate. (I know I would have had a bloody lip 4 years ago, and most would have at some point... But protecting "our" objects is the only way to "try" to stop this madness that seems to be getting totally freakin ridiculous...) Not doing anything and just leaving everyone to their own in every circumstance is only going to indirectly threaten that same freedom that is the basis for the argument not to regulate. Vicious circle. Strong self-regulation within the community is the only thing that can help this situation without "regulating"... which we all know would be impossible. Just my thoughts on the matter. Not disagreeing with anyone or looking for a rebuttal to the age old debate of "regulating BASE", but the sport is certainly changing, and this fatality is more than regrettable...
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Re: [avenfoto] American in Swiss
avenfoto wrote:
another word:
linetwists
and another:
powerlines.

Why would anyone be opening in a position where linetwists might put them into the powerlines? Those things can't ambush you, they're stationary, clearly visible, and right next to a river which you also really don't want to land in. Hitting them would be 100% the fault of the jumper involved.

And if there's anything worse than needlessly killing oneself in the valley, it's causing property or infrastructure damage while doing so.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
Tom,
Fair comment but the original quote was "He bought a base rig without much knowledge of the sport."

Stealthy,
Agree 110%
In the UK we have very strict gun control but still have the odd nut who goes on a rampage, I am sure that we would have a lot more though if we had similar gun laws to the USA. Surely a call to a reference is not to much to ask?

Robi.
There is no single answer but grabbing the money and pretending there is not a problem is not the answer either. Not aimed only at manufactures but at the 2nd hand market too.
On another thread where the police were called and a rig confiscated, the situation MAY have been avoided if whoever sold him a rig made a call or did a little background check.

I have not hidden my identity in anyway we have just never met. Maybe one day?

Edited to add,
I am not making making money selling equipment so it is not really my responsibility to find a solution, just as it is not my responsibility to design and test the equipment.
However on the 3 occasion I have sold rigs I have always contacted a known local to check the buyer out and on 2 occasions I refused to sell to the buyer because the local suggested they were muppets/not ready.

Laters

Julian
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
jools wrote:
Tom,
Fair comment but the original quote was "He bought a base rig without much knowledge of the sport."

Stealthy,
Agree 110%
In the UK we have very strict gun control but still have the odd nut who goes on a rampage, I am sure that we would have a lot more though if we had similar gun laws to the USA. Surely a call to a reference is not to much to ask?

Robi.
There is no single answer but grabbing the money and pretending there is not a problem is not the answer either. Not aimed only at manufactures but at the 2nd hand market too.
On another thread where the police were called and a rig confiscated, the situation MAY have been avoided if whoever sold him a rig made a call or did a little background check.

I have not hidden my identity in anyway we have just never met. Maybe one day?

Laters

Julian

You're not a real person... And I feel left out...

Love and kisses,

Trumpet BASE #1
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
jools wrote:
Tom,
Fair comment but the original quote was "He bought a base rig without much knowledge of the sport."

Don't most first time BASE rig purchasers have relatively limited knowledge of BASE?

I'd say about 30% of my students purchase a rig before they've ever made a single BASE jump. I recommend that they wait until after their first training course to buy gear, but it definitely doesn't always work that way.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
True but hopefully whoever sells them the rig checks that they are booked on a FJC before sending it out.

I have just refused to sell to a guy until I have confirmation from his FJC that he is booked.
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
Ever heard the saying where there is demand there will be a market? Anyone who is anyone knows that controlling the sale of anything is a futile persuit.
You all sound like the rest of societies do gooders running around playing the blame game solving nothing and in the process creating more problems than you solve.

Shame shame shame!
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Re: [jakee] American in Swiss
In a venom, with no base experience, from 1400 feet I'm guessing not a lot of turning would happen. Likely putting the jumper directly over the power lines on opening. Yellow might have one of the best lz's in the valley but not for wingsuits. Not to mention the slight overhanging nature of YO would do fuck all for you if you blow the exit bad enough to need it.
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Re: [imsparticus] American in Swiss
mr. imsparticus, would you please just go away...
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Re: [littlestranger] American in Swiss
Oh all right ill go
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
jools wrote:
True but hopefully whoever sells them the rig checks that they are booked on a FJC before sending it out.

I have just refused to sell to a guy until I have confirmation from his FJC that he is booked.

Hey Jools,

All this anger and so little facts. I'm not going to stand up for Max because I'm quite pissed off at him for killing himself. But here are a few fun facts for you:

#1 He did a first jump course at the potato bridge
#2 He was a very active skydiver with thousands of skydives.
#3 He was a tandem master, AFF Instructor and Videographer.
#4 He was a competitive swooper.
#5 He claimed to have 20 BASE jumps the days before he went in.

More fun facts:

#6 Everyone at SDSD with any experience worth their salt reached out to him. Aggressively.
#7 His learning style sucked and basic survival skills didn't seem to apply to him as far as he was concerned.
#8 He survived this fucked up learning style swooping, providing him with false confidence.
#9 The wingsuit school at SDSD is very competent and concerned with safety. He was not part of the school.
#10 You can tell 'em all you want, until you are blue in the face, but you can't control everything that everyone does.

Max knew the rules. He knew the consequences. He made his choices. I have raised too many glasses with him in honor of dead friends. When I'm done being pissed off, I'll prepare a feast and we'll raise a toast to him this time.

If you want any more fun facts, feel free to email me at bonnie@gravitygear.com

Peace. Out.
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Re: [GravityGirl] American in Swiss
+1. Thank you Bonnie.

- Brian
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
Agreed, 20/20 hindsight not withstanding, most reasonable people/manufacturers wouldn't consider a working skydiver at a DZ with regular BASE jumpers in the high risk pool of people to sell to.

In any case, nobody gets in the BASE industry primarily to make money; there are easier ways to do that. They did it because they have a passion for the sport. Knowing this and understanding that what's bad for the sport will be bad for them, I see they have a self-interested, not just an ethical reason, to self-police gear sales. From what I've seen of the major manufacturers, they generally do good job of this.
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
Hi Jools.
Here is an answer: For Manufacturers and BASE Associations. Create requirements, not suggestions or recommendations. If some one doesnt fulfill the requirements and jumps anyway and dies, It is upon the jumper for not meeting the specified requirements. Not on the Manufacturers and/or BASE Associations who made it perfectly clear what the requirements are. This is what the government wants to see. Some one else to take the blame instead of them. Otherwise, a whole BASE referral system needs to be set up which is what you are basically speaking of. Background checks are seldom as easy as making a long distance phone call and can take a lot of time to get info that is vague at best from someone you have never met.
I hope this helps.
Take care,
space
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Re: [robibird] American in Swiss
Robi, I agree it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to control to whom they sell their products. Or the blame when somebody dies or get injured. However it is, and moreover will be also your problem if and when LB, French alps and other places prohibit base jumping. The gear manufacturers are making more and more of their gear to newcomers, and if the places they jump get shut, then what?

Manufactures and sellers of used gear are not the problem (the buyers are) but they could be part of the solution, if they only want. And there are reasons why they should want...

V
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Re: [vesatoro] American in Swiss
Vesa,

In short you saying that manufacturers should / must / can stop this kind of fatality by ''controlling'' sales?! How ?!
Please how that any of those involved in manufacturing can control anything?! Read carefully what Space wrote please.
On the other hand I must say this..
First line of defense in the base society when I started was mentoring!
To find a mentor was close to impossible. Now BASE school working at every corner and all you need is to show the money.
Talk about the quality of BASE schools as starting point how to prevent fatalities please.
Also, the BASE activity is not LB.
Sadly, LB looks like circus , looks like rehabilitation center.
It is funny to see how suddenly part of base society pretending to be worried abut all incidents!
What has changed please?!
Most of those fatalities in last years were pure human error. Mistake.
People were pushing to much not heaving knowledge , skill or wasn't lucky.
This goes to last fatality here too.
Stop talking about regulating BASE , sales, this that for the good of the BASE and than in next line talk about freedom.
This two things does not go along well.
Number of fatalities has not changes at all in last 5-6 years. Actually it is reduced, but to understand what I am saying bit of analyzing effort is needed.
BASE is activity which require certain level of common sense and patience.
Who has no desire to follow this basics or is to lazy or simply stubborn , has good chances to end up on BFL. Simple. Period.
Since 90% of fatalities are WS. I said very simple once..
It is not the rocket science to find out what is wrong and why we have fatality every week..
People flying MIG21 without learning to fly Cessna 150 properly.
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Re: [robibird] American in Swiss
Robi, I did not write you should/must/can stop it. No single party can stop it, but also manufactures interest is to stop it. I do not know if it's possible at all with the number of people coming to sport all the time, with influences from youtube etc. Maybe it can't be stopped, and eventually base becomes again the sport of the few who know the not already banned places you can jump in secret. It might be a good thing for the sport, and reduce the number of lost lives, but not so good to business. But only time will tell...

V
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Re: [dan_inagap] American in Swiss
+1
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Re: [Holdfast] American in Swiss
Maybe this should get back on topic to how he even got passed groups of people with a venom with 10 jumps....
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Re: [BASE1375] American in Swiss
As for fun facts #1-5,..as Espen Fadnes puts it:
They are like the skiing instructors that claim they can ski down a steep face in Alaska safely. The small wave surfer that believes they can handle Mavericks just because they have years of experience from Mandy Beach. It doesn’t add up.

3 guys from San Diego died in about a year wingsuit base jumping big suits. To be very clear: I am not saying this to put blame on anyone, I am saying this because I believe there is something to learn here for people who get, have been in the sport for a while and/or mentor, guide...
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Re: [BASE1375] American in Swiss
How do you police a borderline sport when half or more of the objects of the BASE acronym are illegal anyway? With publicity from Youtube/Gopro etc Base has caught the attention of the public and with it the number of people wanting to get into the sport. The greater the number of jumps made so the relative accident rate will rise, fact. Experienced and in experienced alike, there seems to be no favoritism but we can draw a line between stupidity and common sense. The Authorities will ban Base jumps if the current trend continues and we shall return to our clandestine past; bad thing?
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Re: [B52] American in Swiss
Robi I think you put it very well. I dont think its your job to police, I think we have to do a better job of policing outselves. There used to be mentors, now there are base courses, and while the initial instruction is quicker to get someone jumping, I think its worse in the long term because there is no followup, and thats what kills people. Also 100% agree than no one should be wingsuit base jumping a large suit right away, I dont care how many skydives they have. That is a trend that is troubling me. I hope you continue to sell more phantoms than anything else, almost a mandatory stepping stone in the wingsuit base progression.

Just to put it out there, the first san diego death which I think you are referring to was one of the most experienced and talented wingsuit pilots I have ever met. I dont think he had anything to do with these deaths which I do agree involved people doing things there is no way they were competent to do.
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Re: [vesatoro] American in Swiss
So, if i understand all your messages here and in the Hangout:

In this picture, there is one object that can't be sell to everybody because it can hurt them or other, and manufacturer must check client background before selling one, and another object that must be available to everybody because it was written like that in a big book hundreds years ago ...



funny country Cool
american-way.jpg
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Re: [nickfrey] American in Swiss
nickfrey wrote:
In a venom, with no base experience, from 1400 feet I'm guessing not a lot of turning would happen. Likely putting the jumper directly over the power lines on opening.

Even if you don't know how to turn you have a choice of where to open. Like I said, hitting the powerlines would be 100% jumper error.
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Re: [jakee] American in Swiss
 I am pretty much sure that are some other base jumpers with few base jumps that did their first ws base in a large suit instead using a small ws like Prodigy or Phantom for their first ws base..But, at least- they did jump a much higher cliff- like ITW or Kjerag...
Because, appearently, he managed the exit and flight somehow..but it is the low altitude available and powerlines that unfortunately killed him...
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Re: [hjumper33] American in Swiss
 
This reminds me a bit of some of the statistics about aircraft pilots. I'm sorry I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head. At fist your a student and are well supervised. Then you take your check ride and are a young pilot. Young pilots have a fairly high accident rate because... well they are still quite young. Then the numbers go down. People become safer with even just a few hours under their belt. Then oddly the rate of accidents goes up. It peaks at about the 200 hour mark then it continues to drop and people become relatively safe. There's a lot of variables here vfr, ifr, etc. But the point is that they obviously need training to learn how to fly but oddly enough the most dangerous time is a good ways down the road as the start to branch out and get more daring, do new thing and go new places.

What I'm suggesting is that the idea of a first jump course is fine but that the most dangerous time for some one is often not when they are beginning an activity but later as they are growing within it. I may not be phrasing that well but I think the most important time for guidance is not nesasarily at the beguining but later as they branch out and for instance start to fly a wing suit. It's an argument in favor of the importants of having a "mentor" what ever that might mean but it probable goes beyond the kind of time frame when we would normally think of this person as a student. It's more about being surrounded by people in your jumping community with the knowlage, expereance, and good judgement and the willingness to share all of those things with you as you grow. If these things are imparted to some one not just as a student but through out there career there is a much greater chance that they will live to one day mature to the point of being in the same position to guide others one day. I don't think there is any thing more valuable then to have some one there with you that you as a touch stone to check, question, or reaferm your judgment.

I'm setting here thinking about groups. Call it what you want group, crew, team. I've seen it in all different context. I think back to some of the gyms when I was a gymnast. It was like a hot box where peoples learning would feed off each other. I think about some of the dropzones where different disciplines start up and grow. Remember some of the places where groups of the early free flyers got started or where CRW was big. Or in rigging where you are lucky enough to have a number of riggers in one area learning from each other.

In every context there was an atmosphere, vibe, tone set by the group. Why can't it be one of good judgment? Don't laugh I've seen it. I've seen where a core group of people establish and guided the growth of those around them passing on not just there skills but their wisdom. And that's what it's really about here. The majority of the fatalities have been simply about judgment. Why is that not valued? People can talk about restricting access to gear or sites but that's really just a bandaid. It's reactionary. It doesn't address the core issue which is the basic tone that we have set within our own community.

So what does all of this mean? Is there a solution to any of this. I suppose that what I'm saying is that the fundamental problem lies with in us. If there are issues with the latest generation of jumpers entering the sport then I hold that it's actually the fault of the older jumpers. I honestly feel that we bear the responsibility for what the sport has grown into today. I'd like to think that we could change it. That if we all stepped forward and set an example of good judgement that it could change. That if we did a better job of teaching decision making. If that was what was valued in our little society over the latest line. And I tend to think that we chose what we value and that that key question lies with in each of us and that the sport as a whole is a reflection of it.

I need to think more. Maybe I'm not ready to write this. But I've seen... communities, best word I could come up with, that grew in much more healthy ways. I need to think more about what made them so. How is the tone of a group set and how does it change? How are it's values created? I'm going to stop now as this is degenerating into rambling.

Lee
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Re: [RiggerLee] American in Swiss
How do you propose a mentor to help in an evolving sport,we are venturing into the realm of experimentation where no one is an expert. This is the learning curve and lessons are coming with a price. Agreed, stop stupidity but do not try to inhibit the freedom of Base.
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Re: [Holdfast] American in Swiss
If you wanted to fly experimental aircraft, youd probably get your license in a piper or cessna first right? People can push the envelope all they want, they just shouldnt be doing it in their first 100 BASE jumps, or maybe even 500.
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Re: [hjumper33] American in Swiss
I think it should be noted that there is a possibility that some jumpers (newer and older) do not rate survival very highly in their list of priorities when assessing a BASE jump.

I have been in situations (BASE jumping and other situations) where my survival was not in the top five priorities at a given moment. It's always there in the back of your head somewhere, but not front and center in some situations.

I can easily see someone assessing a jump and wanting or needing it to the point where they are subconsciously willing to suspend their belief (or care) that they could die. I don't think they consciously choose to submit themselves to that level of risk, but the desire to shortcut the learning progression that has been fairly well established leads me to believe that safety (and perhaps survival) is not their primary goal.

It can be fairly assumed that BASE jumpers in general do not place safety as their #1 priority or else nobody would be BASE jumping. Most BASE jumpers expect to survive most jumps they do. Once in a while I would jump with fairly low odds of success, but those jumps corresponded with a low priority on survival (reflecting a period in my life where I didn't care much either way what happened) and that level of danger was just... not given much attention in my jump analysis.

There have been a few times in my life where the jumper at the exit point (me) seemed to be making decisions as if the jump was an academic exercise where only the physical execution of the jump and its technical aspects were considered. Looking back, it's hard to recognize myself at those times but they happened nonetheless.

I'm not even talking about flat-out suicidal behavior as I think that's something different entirely. How many of you have been on a load with an otherwise rational and heads-up person who just seems to not realize the risk they're exposing themselves to?

Some jumpers know exactly what they're doing, have plenty of experience and technical knowledge, and push push push.

Some jumpers push push push without the knowledge and experience base to draw from.

I guess my point in all of this is that assuming every jumper is trying to survive every jump could be a mistake. I think this is universal across the spectrum of experience levels.


I don't know...
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Re: [jools] American in Swiss
! !
• BASE jumping is extremely dangerous! You may be seriously injured or killed
• Do not use this equipment unless you accept full responsibility for any injury, serious or otherwise, including loss of life.
• Do not use this equipment unless you have read and understand all warning labels, owner’s manuals and packing instructions.
• Do not use this equipment unless you have had complete and controlled instruction in the use of this parachute assembly.
• Do not use this equipment without inspecting it and all of its components thoroughly before each and every use. Replace any defective or worn components before use
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Re: [Thor.A] American in Swiss
•If using this equiptment is seen as a threat to the integrity of easily accessable subpar jumps by those deemed worthy it will be confiscated and destroyed. No exeptions!
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Re: [B52] American in Swiss
>>3 guys from San Diego died in about a year wingsuit base jumping big suits. To be very clear: I am not saying this to put blame on anyone, I am saying this because I believe there is something to learn here for people who get, have been in the sport for a while and/or mentor, guide... <<

This is so naive, it's almost adorable.... almost. "I'm not saying this to put the blame on anyone." Why are you saying this?

I'm assuming you are talking about Shane, Jerad and Max. The common denominator is wingsuit BASE. Yes, their last place of residence was San Diego. But they were not all FROM San Diego.

San Diego is blessed with year 'round weather; year 'round income. This means many aerial sports type people flock here. (Yes, cheesy pun intended)

The three beautiful souls you mention are from various states and drop zones. San Diego happens to be their last place of residence.

Each had different mentors, instructors and paths in the rouge sport of BASE. They had wildly different personalities and approaches to life and sport.

If you have to draw a commonality it would be the love of freedom, sky, personal exploration. Likely a commonality you yourself posses.

Don't for a minute think that the blame belongs to anyone but the individual; for living on the edge, for pushing the limits, for loving life but not fearing death, for being mortal.

We all have a commonality here. We all want to taste more than the bland crap on the menu of suburbia and 9 to 5.

If you want to learn something from this incident, learn that Max made a personal choice to try something that all his friends advised him against. HE MADE HIS CHOICE. That's it. It's pretty simple. He made a bad choice. It killed him.

Know this. You are also mortal. If you continue in this sport and you make bad choices, it will likely kill you.

Here is to hoping you make good choices.
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Re: [MontBlanc] American in Swiss
[...there is one object that can't be sell to everybody because it can hurt them or other, and manufacturer must check client background before selling one, and another object that must be available to everybody because it was written like that in a big book hundreds years ago ... ]

Nice pic MontBlanc, very tongue-in-cheek. I think your comparison is clever and poignant, especially given current events in the US, but it's not a valid one.

Access to guns can be, should be, and is restricted by law in the US where as BASE rigs (or any other adventure gear for that matter) are not and should not be because a BASE rig is generally only potentially dangerous to its user with his/her informed consent, whereas guns are potentially dangerous to others without their consent.

Just for your information, the second amendment to the U.S. constitution, concerning the right of the "the people" to "keep and bear arms" does not mean that access to guns is not restricted. I worked in the American gun industry for several years and believe me there are A LOT of applicable laws concerning sales and ownership, as well there should be. Please, don't misunderstand, I am pro 2nd Amendment and own many guns, but I understand that reasonable restrictions that help prevent unnecessary harm, besides hopefully protecting innocent lives, are desirable if for no other selfish reason than that they sustain my ability to own guns.

I'm not much anti-anything, I'm pro-freedom, and as such I expect a lot from people. Being pro-freedom means also being pro-responsibility. People that want freedom and choice must also be responsible for their choices, like the choice to jump, and they alone should live and die with the consequences. The responsibility rests with them. I don't want to live in a nanny state that tells me I can't buy a BASE rig, or gun, or a Kinder Egg for that matter.

I think the argument some people are putting forth here is not that gear access should be restricted as gun access is, but that some measure of vetting and self-policing within the industry will ultimately be good for the long-term sustainment and growth of the industry and the sport in general.
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Re: [1064] American in Swiss
Guys, let's please try to leave firearms out of this discussion.

Many people (myself included) have very strong political views on this topic.

This is not the appropriate venue for that discussion.

Thanks.
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Re: [TomAiello] American in Swiss
That's basically what I was saying, that guns and rigs are apples and oranges that have no valid comparison when it comes to industry or government regulation. On a personal note, I did think MontBlanc's pic and comment were humorous.

[Nice pic MontBlanc, very tongue-in-cheek. I think your comparison is clever and poignant, especially given current events in the US, but it's not a valid one.]

I agree though, lets get back on topic or end this thread. To spurn further relevant discussion, are there any more thought-provoking details about this incident that haven't been posted yet?
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American in Swiss
I dont think the gear manufacturers can be asked to turn into the FBI and doing 3 day background checks on every customer. As well as a lot of people ordering wingsuits for skydiving, instead of base and using them for 'the other sport' later. Or ordering gear a few months before taking an FJC.

The people teaching (in skydiving and base) should be the first line of defense. And work harder to install some common sense into people looking to get into base.

I know that the last few years Ive had several (skydiving) students who showed both poor skills, as well as poor (no) proper judgement of risk. They pull low, are unaware, fly bad etc etc. And after a wingsuit FFC, told both that they shouldnt fly a wingsuit for another few 100 skydives.
In one occasion I heard he was doing a BASE FJC a few weeks later. And I (and several other friends) wrote the teacher doing the base FJC that said student should not be allowed to jump of any object. As it would be dangerous to them and just a bad addition to the sport in general.

But sadly the mentor/teacher (who is now a VERY LOUD voice online against the 'stupidity' in our sport) emailed back that he shared our concern, but was gonna let them jump regardless.
And not after a few jumps of a bridge, and taking the students money, also said 'yea..this is not your thing'. But had already taught the guy everything he needed to know.

Its so easy to get on a base FJC (be it a formal one, or one of the many 'friends taking friends' type setups). And a few people with integrity aside, its often the dollar that wins in decision making.

Base prouds itself in having no rules. But its this lack of rules thats seemingly the very thing making people who fill 'hindered' by skydiving regulations do a lot of stupid things.

And much like gun laws, I feel its passed a point of no return. And only hard rules could help. But no real way of possibly enforcing them.
So what the answer is to the current 'low skills fatalities' streak. I have no clue. Aside from trying to keep feeding people some common sense by an occasional bitch-slap or harsh 'no, you are not ready'.
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Re: [mccordia] American in Swiss
Reply To All, There is a pervasive crappy attitude amongst most wannabe wingsuit base jumpers at the U.S. DZ. Nobody has a mentor, why? No one wants to mentor these lazy, arrogant, "i'm gonna do it how I want to anyways" people. It's hard to watch. The Perrine and the gopro, if they went away then attrition to the sport would probably be much more like it was in the old days. Nothing is gonna stop the runaway train now, though.

Ginny
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Re: [base283] American in Swiss
base283 wrote:
Hi Jools.
Here is an answer: For Manufacturers and BASE Associations. Create requirements, not suggestions or recommendations. If some one doesnt fulfill the requirements and jumps anyway and dies, It is upon the jumper for not meeting the specified requirements. Not on the Manufacturers and/or BASE Associations who made it perfectly clear what the requirements are. This is what the government wants to see. Some one else to take the blame instead of them. Otherwise, a whole BASE referral system needs to be set up which is what you are basically speaking of. Background checks are seldom as easy as making a long distance phone call and can take a lot of time to get info that is vague at best from someone you have never met.
I hope this helps.
Take care,
space

This is very clever, Space, and makes more sense than any of the other "self-regulatory" proposals posited here, chiefly for the reason you expressed: unfeasibility.

There is also the problem of applicability. The glaring factual monkey wrench that bollixes up the regulatory proposals is that such proposals would have had zero effect on the vast majority of wingsuit BASE furrows made during the past few years. Look at this year or any other year and most of WS furrows were made by pilots with many jumps, many wingsuit skydives and many wingsuit BASE jumps too. Almost all of them were many years and many jumps past their initial gear purchases and FJC and almost all of them had way more wingsuit jumps than they needed to "pass" any of the proposed filters.

What is the point of designing, developing and then trying to impose a "self-regulatory" system of requirements and vetting and cross-checking that will address 10 percent or less of the carnage, aggravate 100 percent of the population, and which by definition does not apply to the 90 percent who are making the most furrows?

After watching this discussion, it seems to me that what we need to do as a community is repeat with wingsuit BASE the same sort of cultural change that resulted in FJCs for "regular" BASE. It is now a community, cultural, tribal standard that anyone responsibly and reasonably seeking to start BASE jumping will take an FJC.

There is definitely no wingsuit BASE FJC culture, and AFAIK, there is no equivalent course offered for wingsuit BASE at all (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Because the bottom line is: like regular BASE and basic parachuting training, the basic wingsuit training you get at a drop zone does not cover elements of wingsuit flight that are BASE-specific.

Granted, this will not have an immediate effect on the highly-experienced wingsuit BASE furrows being made these days, but it could reduce the "10 percenter" carnage fairly quickly and then, as those jumpers become the highly experienced guys down the road, the FJC foundation on which their skills are built might help reduce the number of furrows they plow too.

Other than that, we can't do much more than repeat the modified mantra of Skratch Garrison from The Gulch days:

Flying low is a rush, but it just isn't practical.

Cool
44
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Re: [Holdfast] American in Swiss
Holdfast wrote:
This is the learning curve and lessons are coming with a price.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that the lessons are already there on the BFL, yet some people are not learning from those lessons and are going in because of the same mistakes made by those before them.

I doubt any of the recent WS fatalities had planned on/knew they were going in when they were on exit, so why did they put themselves in the position where they do? What influenced them to take a bigger risk than necessary? Why did they go in? Inexperience? Overconfidence? Jumping outside of current abilities? Jumping in bad/unknown conditions? Fatigue? Something else? Or was it just bad luck?

All of those (except bad luck, but should you put yourself in a position to rely on luck? I don’t believe so) are preventable – and they have been reasons for appearing on the BFL before. Why is there a need to rush to be like ‘Insert top wingsuit flyer here’, without realizing first the practice, patience, experience, training and knowledge that got them where they are today? I have been guilty of going too hard too fast as well; luckily there were experienced jumpers nearby to pull me aside and give me advice on realistically evaluating my own skills. And for that, I am very grateful. It is a tool I continue to use when assessing jumps/exits.

Are we forgetting that even the most basic WS Base jump is an incredible experience that only a fraction of a percent of people in the world get to experience?!? This is something I have to remind myself sometimes. Even if a jump wasn’t the best line you have flown, not as ‘good’ as someone else’s or if it is straight away from the wall … if you land safely, it is an amazing jump and a truly awesome achievement. Hands down. It is better to drink a beer with your friends than have them drink one in your honor.
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Re: [jpengel] American in Swiss
jpengel wrote:
It is better to drink a beer with your friends than have them drink one in your honor.

!
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Re: [DexterBase] American in Swiss
DexterBase wrote:

I'm not even talking about flat-out suicidal behavior as I think that's something different entirely. How many of you have been on a load with an otherwise rational and heads-up person who just seems to not realize the risk they're exposing themselves to?

A few concepts spring to mind. One is the idea that people can be passively suicidal. They don't have the inclination, motivation, or whatever to go and actively kill themselves, but they care little enough about living that they're not going to go to great lengths to protect themselves either.

Another is the personal fable, the common belief in adolescence and often later in life that one is special.

Then, of course, there's just plain old addiction: the seeking out of a stimulus regardless of the negative consequences it is having on your life.
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Re: [jpengel] American in Swiss
[I doubt any of the recent WS fatalities had planned on/knew they were going in when they were on exit, so why did they put themselves in the position where they do?]

jpengel, I totally understand your point, however, I believe that this sort of statement highlights a very deterministic view of the injuries that occur.

Every single jump, whether its a static line off the Perrine, or wingsuit BASE in Lauterbrunnen has a chance of going wrong. Every jump I make, I'd like to think that I realize there is a probability of injury.

When we decide to make a jump, we shouldn't think "Yes or no, can I do this?" What we should ask ourselves is "How big are the chances of this going wrong?" And even though that probability will be different for different jumpers based on experience/conditions/talent, it will always be greater with more complicated jumps.

If we all did a jump off the perrine tomorrow some of us would get injured, have mals etc. Its the reality of this sport. Its not what risks we can handle, but what risks we can accept.

Every jump has the chance of taking your life. Are you willing to bet your life on it?

Not a wingsuiter. Just a newb and my humble $.02. No experience will ever make a jump perfectly safe.
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Re: [robinheid] American in Swiss
> Flying low is a rush, but it just isn't practical.


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Re: [FryRikeBrick] American in Swiss
In my mind, it goes without saying that: every jumper should know that each jump could be their last and when preparing for a jump, they take into account what could go wrong and how they plan to react to that potential situation.

The discussion I was trying to bring up was why did they make the decision that ultimately resulted in their death (object, proximity, wingsuit, ... whatever that decision was).

I think what you wrote is a good representation of the dynamic risk of this activity.
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Re: [GravityGirl] American in Swiss
GravityGirl wrote:
jools wrote:
True but hopefully whoever sells them the rig checks that they are booked on a FJC before sending it out.

I have just refused to sell to a guy until I have confirmation from his FJC that he is booked.

Hey Jools,

All this anger and so little facts. I'm not going to stand up for Max because I'm quite pissed off at him for killing himself. But here are a few fun facts for you:

#1 He did a first jump course at the potato bridge
#2 He was a very active skydiver with thousands of skydives.
#3 He was a tandem master, AFF Instructor and Videographer.
#4 He was a competitive swooper.
#5 He claimed to have 20 BASE jumps the days before he went in.

More fun facts:

#6 Everyone at SDSD with any experience worth their salt reached out to him. Aggressively.
#7 His learning style sucked and basic survival skills didn't seem to apply to him as far as he was concerned.
#8 He survived this fucked up learning style swooping, providing him with false confidence.
#9 The wingsuit school at SDSD is very competent and concerned with safety. He was not part of the school.
#10 You can tell 'em all you want, until you are blue in the face, but you can't control everything that everyone does.

Max knew the rules. He knew the consequences. He made his choices. I have raised too many glasses with him in honor of dead friends. When I'm done being pissed off, I'll prepare a feast and we'll raise a toast to him this time.

If you want any more fun facts, feel free to email me at bonnie@gravitygear.com

Peace. Out.

This.

I don't BASE. I do, however, participate in many high risk activities. I'm not sure a few of you understand the meaning of personal responsibility and freedom.

Max has a lot of friends. Max has a lot of friends that attempted to disuade him. Max was a grown ass man who made his own decision. Max will be used as a learning point for disuading others. However, at the end of the day, no one else is responsible except for the jumper.
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Re: [jpengel] American in Swiss
Most fatalities are a chain of events but what we're mostly talking about here is the judgment factor.

I really don't like the fatalistic idea that you could die on any jump. Obviously it can happen but I like to think that there is a certain amount of depth in the defense. I like to think or I try to arrange it so that there isn't any one thing that could kill me. I like to think that it would take several mistakes or issues in order for it to add up to my death. In other words I try to stack the deck in my favor. That's why things like a PC mal tend to be frightening. It's the sort of issue that there isn't really a solution for in the flow chart of the dive plan.

That's how I see and envision the jump as a flow chart. A good jump has a "good" flow chart. In other words at every fork were an issue might occur there is a response which leads some where other then the box labeled, "and then you die" Ether that or the odds of the issue arising are very low.

A fatality is a jump in which some one put them selves in a position on the chart where they did not have, or failed to execute a response to the event. Usually there are several forks that have to be taken to get to a place like that. Or if it's a good plan then it should require several bad forks to get there.

What I see in a lot of these is bad plans. Passing over the top of some thing by mere feet is a "bad plan". What if you bobble in even a small way or for any reason lose glide. Flying beside some thing with lots of room below you and a bail to the side on a non windy non thermally non turbulent day with enough room that even if you do bobble you'll have room to recover with out meeting wall is a "good" plan. You have outs.

I think the phycology of how people wind up jumping with bad plans is interesting. Some body ought to be able to write a paper on it. I remember thinking about it. I dug up an old post I made once when I was trying to under stand it.

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2878683;#2878683

I wish Jeff and his PHD in Phyc were still around. Any other shrinks out there that can give some... authoritative input?

Lee
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Re: [RiggerLee] American in Swiss
It doesn't take a PHD. to guess possible answers . Or PHD. to know you cant stop it . Everyone knows the reason why . Wingsuits are sucking even the most experienced flyers to scrubbing off to much altitude and dying . And that a Wingsuit sucks-in the inexperienced or ill prepared in illusions of YouTube glory to a quick death .
Don't scrub-off to much altitude flying your line . Don't fuck up the Exit . Don't pull to low . Don't fall of the cliff while hiking to the Exit with your Wingsuit . etc .
.
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Re: [RiggerLee] American in Swiss
Lee, No Disrespect in my talking .
You Don't need a PHD. to understand . And also people who think that the BASE Jump community or Gear Manufactures or Mentors and FJC's can intervene or stop people from killing themselves flying Wingsuits . There is no stopping any of it . Just like they in No Way are responsible in selling or manufacturing the Wingsuit or BASE gear that the Wingsuiters killed themselves in .
All I got to do to see this cant be stopped in PRIME example . Is look at another Post on the BASE.com of some motherfucker cutting holes in his back and then connecting Risers and Canopy to his back, and then jumping off a fucking Tower for YouTube glory . WTF ? .
You cant intervene or stop any of it . All you can do is accept it & then shake your head and go about your living .
.
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Re: [RayLosli] American in Swiss
Why are wing suits more dangerous? Ok, exits are a bitch. Depending on the size and shape it can be hard to exit. You can get into trouble. You need a really good exit point.

But I still think they should actually be safer then an ordinary base jump. You laugh but with there performance wall strikes and hitting terrain just should never happen. It's the choice to jump them from less then stellar exit points. The choice to fly towards the wall not away from it that leads to all of these deaths.

The issue is within us. It's psychological or cultural, or a question of maturity. I don't know. But if it's with in us then it's something we have the power to correct. It's fixable.

Maybe we are the one percent at the far end of the stupid curve but I don't see this behavior in other high risk sports. Every one might have there ass holes but not like this.

It's something we have grow and created our selves. It may be product of the way we have posted things on you tube. Which is totally out of context and unrealistic. Or it might be a productof this latest generation. But I submit to you that it is there for within our power change it.

Lee
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Re: [RiggerLee] American in Swiss
RiggerLee wrote:
Most fatalities are a chain of events but what we're mostly talking about here is the judgment factor.
I really don't like the fatalistic idea that you could die on any jump.
That's how I see and envision the jump as a flow chart.
I dug up an old post I made once when I was trying to under stand it.

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2878683;#2878683

Lee
I really like the way you put it here. It explains a lot to me why we have people like Max B dying and not you and I. You have made some epic trips in order to BASE jump and you have had to expend a lot of time, money, and energy, more than most people reading this forum could imagine, yet you have walked away without the jump,... But with your Life.
Baffin, The Winds, for example.
I have just returned from an Island in Northern Norway where I went hoping to make a jump, it took a fair amount of effort, and I had to walk off three times because it just wasn't quite right, really tempted, but the conditions just didn't guarantee a successful outcome. As I stood on top the last time and new that I might be able to jump, I thought about all the people who had died because they chose to ignore a piece of your "flow chart ".
I walked away! but that Rock isn't going anywhere in my lifetime and I can return again.

When I referenced your old Post it was very interesting to see the next posters response, it's worth checking out, especially if you know the story behind how he earned BFL#138,...
Enough said,.. Regards,B.
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Re: [andyj] American in Swiss
andyj wrote:

....snip....

Max has a lot of friends. Max has a lot of friends that attempted to disuade him. Max was a grown ass man who made his own decision. Max will be used as a learning point for disuading others. However, at the end of the day, no one else is responsible except for the jumper.

Before he started his base dream, he had a crazy idea of swooping the main landing area at kjerag, in his skydivecanopy. We managed to talk him out of it...

Although, whatever you all think, he was not totally insane... i've seen him climb down 2 objects, based on his own decission, pre his first FJC course...


BSBD you crazy guy...
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Re: [preben] American in Swiss
preben wrote:
Although, whatever you all think, he was not totally insane... i've seen him climb down 2 objects, based on his own decission, pre his first FJC course...

If this is not a contradiction, then I don't know what is.
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Re: [vid666] American in Swiss
vid666 wrote:
preben wrote:
Although, whatever you all think, he was not totally insane... i've seen him climb down 2 objects, based on his own decission, pre his first FJC course...

If this is not a contradiction, then I don't know what is.

Well, yeah it is.

He was human, like all of us. He had a massive drive to achieve something once he put his mind into it.....
He f*cked it up...

...nothing new to add to the discussion....
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Re: [andyj] American in Swiss
andyj wrote:
I don't BASE. I do, however, participate in many high risk activities. I'm not sure a few of you understand the meaning of personal responsibility and freedom.

A note on "Freedom": I am perfectly happy for someone to go and kill themselves in the name of "Freedom". Just please do it somewhere that won't affect MY "Freedom" to continue doing what I love.
A note on "Responsibility": While every one needs to accept responsibility for their own actions as they will be the ones having to accept the ultimate consequences, this does not however mean that we are entirely free of responsibility for other peoples actions. So what if some knuckle head kills himself, of course I'm not responsible for that. But if that site is then closed down because of a fatality I didn't even try to prevent then I am in part responsible for that. I for one am sick of hearing "They were responsible for their own actions", people need to start taking responsibility for those around them. Remember "If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the cause".
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Re: [Fledgling] American in Swiss
No.
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Mentoring, Responsibility & Gear
With an FJC, the teacher is often no longer part
of the equation... After my course I was rolling
solo so I did call Tom A and ask questions but I
could easily see a qualified SKY jumper taking
an FJC course from Tom A., Chuma, Brandon,
Jimmy, Marta, etc. then going back to their
own state or country and running amok.

FJCs came about because so many no longer
want to Mentor, and I have finally been in
long enough to know why: risk, time, effort,
worry, reputation, etc. Plus the truth is not
everyone is a teacher, some people just are
natural athletes gifted with ability to do but
suck at really explaining things well.

Old people have been complaining for years,
damn kids on grass and so on, and I am now
officially old and have joined that group but
new jumpers in both SKY and BASE are part
of an entire society that has changed.

Does not matter if you are teaching economics,
martial arts, skydiving, BASE jumping, packing,
or most any other topic -- students have less
focus, less patience, and a much stronger sense
of entitlement than ever before -> I deserve X

You can't un-ring a bell and sadly I do not have
a great solution to the problems of BASE or USA.

I understand when you run a business it is very
difficult to say no. Sometimes saying no might
be more dangerous because instruction can help
a wing-nut occasionally slow down or grow up.

I had one guy approach me for help who had
10 SKY jumps, 2 BASE jumps, who already
bought a velcro/mojo combo for $1,000. We
all know this is a shitty recipe, but he lived
close enough to me that his death would
burn my objects, he already owned gear,
and he had already jumped twice with
zero instruction so I decided to help him.

One more example and I will end this novella.
Young guy wants to eventually wingsuit BASE
which I do not participate in nor condone...
I teach him to SKY jump and he ground crews
many times, learns to pack, basically all of
the old school ways to learn the dark art.

When we finally got ready to take him out for
his first BASE jump I had a very serious talk
with him about my expectations.

You are NOT allowed to BASE a wingsuit until
I say you are ready, do it behind my back and
the consequences are: no more help from me,
all of my objects are off limits, and most likely
I am going to beat the shit out of you.

He smiled, I did not and reiterated my
promise, explaining that I would punch
him in the face repeatedly till either the
cops showed up or he was on the ground.

To his credit, his reply was serious too,
"okay, I agree on the condition that you
have to eventually say yes if I am ready,
you can't just say no forever because it
is more dangerous and you don't do it."

So far so good, he has 400+ SKY jumps,
100+ BASE jumps, and 2 wingsuit BASE
jumps from very tall antennas. Oh and
I also made sure he bought a smaller
wingsuit because whatever he owns
and uses in the SKY will be what he
would want to take off of an object.
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Re: [StealthyB] American in Swiss
StealthyB wrote:
RiggerLee wrote:
Most fatalities are a chain of events but what we're mostly talking about here is the judgment factor.
I really don't like the fatalistic idea that you could die on any jump.
That's how I see and envision the jump as a flow chart.
I dug up an old post I made once when I was trying to under stand it.

http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2878683;#2878683

Lee
I really like the way you put it here. It explains a lot to me why we have people like Max B dying and not you and I. You have made some epic trips in order to BASE jump and you have had to expend a lot of time, money, and energy, more than most people reading this forum could imagine, yet you have walked away without the jump,... But with your Life.
Baffin, The Winds, for example.
I have just returned from an Island in Northern Norway where I went hoping to make a jump, it took a fair amount of effort, and I had to walk off three times because it just wasn't quite right, really tempted, but the conditions just didn't guarantee a successful outcome. As I stood on top the last time and new that I might be able to jump, I thought about all the people who had died because they chose to ignore a piece of your "flow chart ".
I walked away! but that Rock isn't going anywhere in my lifetime and I can return again.

<snip>

Regards,B.

Reminds me of that night you and I camped out at the edge of the Black Canyon waiting for the wind to quit spelling D-E-A-T-H in high-speed letters but it never did so after spending half the night wrapped in space blankets we went home.

I've always said that walk-downs should count as much as step-offs but I've only been BASE jumping since 1979 so what do I know?

Cool
44
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Re: [robinheid] American in Swiss
robinheid wrote:

Reminds me of that night you and I camped out at the edge of the Black Canyon waiting for the wind to quit spelling D-E-A-T-H in high-speed letters but it never did so after spending half the night wrapped in space blankets we went home.

I've always said that walk-downs should count as much as step-offs but I've only been BASE jumping since 1979 so what do I know?

Cool
44
Yeah, I remember a lot of "should we? shouldn't we ?" looking down into that grey abyss, trying for a Harvest Moon night jump. I think we made a good decision that time, but space blankets are neither warm nor comfortable....Cool

Amazing, almost 60 yrs combined BASE experience between the two of us,... reminiscing about the ones that got away, that's bound to get the newbies bad mouthing us,...
How's your rocking chair Robin,..? Comfortable? Wink
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Re: [StealthyB] American in Swiss
Can one of you guys give me a reacharound with your free hand while your there, im feeling a little left out.
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Re: [imsparticus] American in Swiss
[sarcasm]That is a really nice post to put in the Incidents forum [/sarcasm]
Tom. could you do some splitting of topics? Imsparticus,
could you delete your post out of respect to the deceased?
Thanks,
take care,
space
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Re: [base283] American in Swiss
   R.I.P. Max

Sorry you didn't stick around long enough to become a "Grumpy old Man" Unimpressed
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Re: [huckfinn] American in Swiss
 Nobody has a mentor, why? No one wants to mentor these lazy, arrogant, "i'm gonna do it how I want to anyways" people.

Ginny
I hope that is not what they are saying. I would say, " I'm going to do it how I want anyway" without the s at the end.
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Re: [RiggerLee] American in Swiss
You may find this list of cognitive biases very relevant to this, and a number of other, discussions on this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/..._of_cognitive_biases

Decision making is complex and we have many strong internal incentives to present ourselves with very biased views of the world whether we would like to or not. Because we do so poorly with the known unknowns and unknown unknowns, and so frequently only look at one small part of the equation (WYSIATI for example), the best way to take advantage of our knowledge of cognitive biases is to create a framework, or checklist, that we can use as a safeguard against the most common decision making errors.

Hope this is helpful,

Bryan
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Re: [huckfinn] American in Swiss
+1

<3 Ginny!
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Re: [all] American in Swiss
IMHO This incident comes down to decision making ability, something I never observed Max to be good at, ever. I hadn't seen him in awhile, but had heard that he was working in the industry...I had hoped that he had grown up a bit.
It's sad to say, but based on what I saw of him, I agree wilth StealthyOldMan that this is not surprising. I would want nothing to do with teaching him...he was a learning hard case.
I also agree with Ginny. A good mentor is hard to find...which is probably why so many people these days are happy to have a mentor with 40 jumps, or even a "cyber mentor."

If you ever decide to climb down, not jump, walk off etc. for ANY reason, you've made the right choice. Even if 10 other people do it with no problems.
Go drink a beer and be happy you have a survival instinct.
2 cents

pope

PS; Stealthy and Ginny--miss you guys!
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Re: [] American in Swiss
In reply to:
A good jump has a "good" flow chart. In other words at every fork were an issue might occur there is a response which leads some where other then the box labeled, "and then you die"

This is worth repeating.
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Re: [GreenMachine] Mentoring, Responsibility & Gear
GreenMachine wrote:
With an FJC, the teacher is often no longer part
of the equation...


I get an almost continuous stream of questions by phone, email, facebook and here from former students. I can't imagine that it's not the same for other instructors.


In reply to:
FJCs came about because so many no longer
want to Mentor


I don't think that's true. We still have roughly the same number of qualified and willing mentors out there. We just have a couple orders of magnitude more eager new "mentees" than we had in the past. The massive misbalance between mentors and new jumpers isn't the result of a decline in willingness to mentor--it's a result of the massive increase in the number of new jumpers who need a mentor.
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Re: [pope] American in Swiss
pope wrote:
If you ever decide to climb down, not jump, walk off etc. for ANY reason, you've made the right choice. Even if 10 other people do it with no problems.
Go drink a beer and be happy you have a survival instinct.
2 cents

pope
!

+1
It happened to me a couple of months ago at a great spot, felt shitty at the time but better afterwards.
Note: If anyone gives you a hard time or talks shit, maybe you need to find other people to jump with....