Basejumper.com - archive

Decided since I have been lurking and reading so much, it would be a good move to introduce myself. I'm an experienced skydiver looking to make the move to BASE, which has always held a tight hold on my adventure dreams. Im currently working in Afghanistan but am planning on attending Snake River Base Academy in November. Tom has been gracious and patient in helping me get set up to attend.

Right now I am looking at purchasing an ACE 310 with an Apex Velcro container.

Im based out of Northwest Washington State.

Hello, I just spent some time with Tom, you wont be disappointed. He has lots of rigs and canopies to try, I would use them up before you decide on what you want

Great! I am looking forward to it. Wanted to get my own rig because I am trying to go back to back with the Fundamental Course and Object Avoidance Course (which i would need my own rig to fine tune brake settings). Plus, I would like to have my own so I can ask questions and work out any growing pains with it while Im at the course before I leave.

Fair enough, good luck

Thank you!

Is that a second hand rig you´re looking at? If you´re looking to purchase a new one, mind if I ask that why are you opting to go for velcro? And also what is your reasoning to go for an Ace?

No, it would be a new purchase. I am going for velcro because the packing volume is more forgiving with a velcro rig. I realize I can adjust closing loop length, I am not planning on doing extended tracking/ terminal jumps anytime soon. I am a beginner/novice and am purchasing gear as such. I'm not trying to get the sexy gear just yet.

I honestly am on the fence about getting the Apex DP or the Apex V, both have unique qualities. I have been bouncing back and forth between the two. I don't want to get the Velcro rig and grow out of it too fast. I also don't want to get ahead of myself and get something too technical. I may be crazy, but Im not stupid. I would appreciate guidance and recommendations one way or another. I have read the pros and cons for both ad nauseam.

I want to make sure that I am buying gear that is more geared towards my experience level.

As for the ACE, I wanted something with consistent on-heading openings and good deep brake qualities for beginners. Again, there is so much quality gear and everyone has opinions. That is why I put out what I was looking at buying. I appreciate any help, guidance or reasoning behind their preference. Thanks!

Based on Climb2Freefall's response above, it's clear he has closely read Tom A.'s "My First BASE Rig" article, which is full of great information and has aided countless new jumpers......however, this article seems somewhat dated as it was written several years ago.

Tom- any chance you may update this article to reflect recent gear advancements, or do you still feel it's still completely suitable? Thanks.

If you take the time to get a proper introduction to your gear, you can safely use a velcro or pin rig as your first rig. Don't be afraid of a pin rig.

That said, I see two big disadvantages to a velcro rig, and these aren't inherent faults of a velcro rig, they're inherent faults in the user population: humans.

Velcro rigs have performance limitations, and you may find yourself approaching these performance limitations before your wallet is ready to purchase a pin rig. Are you disciplined enough not to use your rig beyond its design envelope even when your friends are doing loop-d-loos with their pin rigs?????

Velcro rigs are safest when the velcro is well-maintained. Are you prepared to continuously evaluate your rig's velcro? Do you have the necessary equipment to make the repairs yourself? Are you willing to pay someone else to make those repairs? Are you disciplined enough to stay on the ground when your velcro is not in serviceable condition?

In short, in my opinion, velcro rigs are fine, if we weak-willed humans weren't the ones using 'em.

~ Chris

My 3 cents --> BUY USED GEAR

Cheaper, Faster, and who knows you

may not like BASE after doing it...


As for Velcro, fine if used properly.

As for the ACE, fine for 300+ feet.

Have you looked at the Blackjack at all?? I just spent a lot of time looking into what to get for my first rig and for me the blackjack was the best fit. I felt that I would rather have vents for the type of jumping I'm going to be doing.

300+ Why is that?

The ACE has no vents.

Vents are a pretty good idea when you're jumping close to the planet...

This was exactly my feeling as well and the reason why I asked. Personally I think that if one wants to have a slider down rig ONLY, an Ace in a Velcro would be fine. Personally I would go with a newer generation canopy for that purpose as well but that´s just me. But if he plans to do anything where the slider goes up, I would strongly advice against the Ace. The Ace is notoriously famous for bad openings in subterminal slider up. Personally I have seen so much bad stuff happen and I know so many people that have gotten hurt with an Ace in those environments that that is pretty much the only BASE specific canopy I personally would refuse to jump for example in the Swiss Valley.

Regarding pin rigs, I absolutely agree what has being said. I see no advantage what so ever on Velcro over pins and on this side of the pond the Velcro rigs have basically gone extinct because of the reason that there just is no reason to not buy a pin rig for your first.

I agree that Tom´s article contains lot of valuable information but I also agree that it is severly outdated on these parts.

Right on. Thank you! I see your point. I cant thank you guys enough for helping out with this. I was looking at the Flik as well. Thoughts? Im not pulling at straws I promise, that was one of the others I was seriously considering.

Like I said, I don't want to under estimate my learning ability and comfort with the Velcro. I just want to make an informed decision. Hence all of this. If nothing is wrong with a beginner getting a pin rig, I have no problem shortening the closing loops once I get a little more proficient with the BASE pack.

I think you'll find pin rigs are pretty damn easy to close. In some ways, I think they're easier to close than velcro. Additionally, when you hit the ground, you can largely just stuff your pin rig in the stash bag and haul ass. With a velcro rig, it's a good idea to cover all that nasty hook velcro before you begin stuffing your expensive gear in the stash bag with it exposed...

I jump FLiKs, and I love 'em. That said, mine have 4 vents.

Edited to add:
Ultimately, all gear has pluses and minuses. And the reasons can be nuanced, based on what you're mixing/matching and how you plan to use the gear. So finding a trusted source and talking about gear over a couple burgers is a good idea!

Yes, I think the velcro getting caught and/or rubbing would have to be curbed, taking time to prevent when putting in stash bag. Not to mention my OCD I would have to deal with, picking shit out of velcro. I think I have heard enough to seal the deal on the container. PINS it is.

Now to just get this canopy thing nailed down. Id be going with a 308 if I got a FLiK. which would be putting me at about .7 wing load.

I've been meaning to do that for some time, but honestly I've been teaching almost non-stop since the beginning of June, and there are a lot of things on my "to do" list ahead of that update.

FWIW, my top choice for price/value on an unvented canopy is still the Ace. My other top choices are the Blackjack (mid range price) and the OSP (high end price).

At this stage, if you are buying new gear, I'd recommend a 2 pin system from a major manufacturer because if/when you decide to trade up or move on you will recover most of your money. If you are looking for something cheaper, there are lots of other containers (including velcro) that can be had secondhand for much cheaper and will be perfectly adequate.

I disagree. Having freefalled an ace from lower then 300ft a many several times, I think it's still an all around great canopy. But with used, more advanced canopies going for the same price, I'd look around.

And never buy a NEW Velcro rig, that's just silly. Velcro is awesome, and people sell them cheap all the time. Find one that fits and build a custom shrivel flap to fit your canopy. Then jump that until it sets in that you'll never be old school and should have got a pin rig. See ya soon.

Where are you finding those?

When I'm looking at gear (and I buy and sell a lot of gear), Aces are several hundred dollars cheaper than almost anything else, mostly because they're almost the only unvented canopy still in wide spread production.

New Ace, Used vented canopy. For example:

http://www.basejumper.com/...265_dw_mdv_4928.html

What is the reason for recommending unvented canopy (other than price)?

Serious Q

Price is the big one.

But there is a real argument to be made over bottom skin inlets that has been either forgotten over time or had over and over so many times that people are tired of arguing.

I don't have a lot of time today (I'm trying to catch up on paperwork and clean up before I start a course tomorrow), but the short version is:

Vented: Faster slider down pressurization, flying (hence can be flared to land) sooner during the sequence. Allows much better landings on very low jumps (because the wing is pressurized sooner). More likely to experience object strike (because the wing flying sooner gives the jumper less reaction time before it starts moving into the object). Post strike reinflation is usually fairly good (understanding that object strikes are very dynamic and unpredictable events), so the jumper is likely to be less seriously injured by an object strike.

Unvented: Slower slider down pressurization. Flying later, so rougher landings for low jumps. Less likely to experience object strike (because the wing gives more pause time before it begins to fly forward, giving the jumper more reaction time). Post strike reinflation is less predictable, so the jumper is more likely to be more seriously injured in the event of object strike.

There is also an argument over opening heading, and whether the bottom skin inlets help with that.

And then there's the argument about varying the number and size of inlets.

More in depth discussion is probably better done in person (with something to draw diagrams on), and would certainly take more time than I have right now.

It's a pretty complex topic, and I think we often have a tendency to want a simple answer (i.e. "vents are the best thing since sliced bread and everyone should always have as many as possible"), but unfortunately simple answers are usually too simple.

Just because most people are saying to buy a pin rig doesn't mean it's right for you.

I bet most of the people who advocate pin rigs have never jumped or have minimal jumps on a velcro rig and are speaking only on the type of gear they know.

Velcro is just fine to use in most all applications, is easier to close and you will have the 'old school' groupies all over you!

I jump an ACE 280, I KNOW it pressurizes just as fast as some of the other vented canopies. I have free fallen 250ft and up with it, and have not regretted not having a vented canopy. I also jump my ACE out of a Velcro rig. I just don't have the need for the security of pins when it comes to flippy do's and terminal jumps. People make it sound like if you jump a Velcro rig you have to put in a lot of overtime in inspections and maintenance. Same thing goes for PC's, risers, bridles, toggles, tail pocket, rubber bands, etc, etc, etc....

What's your basis for comparison? And how do you define "pressurizes"?

A slider down unvented canopy experiences bottom skin expansion well before cell pressurization.

I've seen a fair number of openings, and reviewed them on a lot of video, and I've never seen any unvented canopy pressurize as quickly as any vented canopy.

Bottom skin expansion appears to happen at almost he same rate with or without vents, but cell pressurization is noticeably different.

another nor'wester? im moving to seattle the end of next year. see ya then

Ok, when I say pressurize, I'm saying full of enough air to start flying or responding to toggle input.

I've watched video of a Flik, a Troll DW, a BJ, a Mayhem, a Dagger, a Seven, a Raven, an ACE, all PCA, same exit point, same camera angle, no difference. Not sure if the PCA had anything to do with it, but I've also read on hear the same thing about an ACE. Also not sure what the wing loadings on all these were. I do understand that a 180lb person jumping an ACE 280 vs. an ACE 300+ is going to be different...

Add: and a Mojo

on a pca you have very little airspeed to push through the vent after a 1 or 2 second delay the amount of air pushing through the vents will be a lot greater

Right on! See you the for sure!

Haha wow this is good. First of all hey Tom its Adrian. Ok Tom it just so happens I'm in the same area as climb2freefall so I'll help out Donny. Hope all the crazy BASE kids r doing well ;).

Get vents, its not just speed of pressurization, vents keep your canopy inflated when you are slamming against the wall repeatedly. and get a 2 pin, i take my two pin from 130 ft at 7000 ft msl frequently in addition to going terminal, velcro rigs are a thing of the past. you will NOT grow out of a dual pin. be safe out there

As for the jumpers that are here in the PNW, most all of the canopies jumped here are vented. There are also several Velcro rigs in circulation. I've built and jumped both and with our objects and LZ's Vented and Velcro (or pins) works awesome. If you go unvented, you will be fine, however, everyone will ask why you aren't jumping vents. Both types can be put anywhere with skill.

If you are trying to save money, I say save it on the container. Without travel, 95% of your jumps here are sub-terminal and generally <400'. Velcro can be converted to pin easily and cheaply, we have a BASE Loft. Of course, that said, vents are relatively easy to install as well.

My preference is OSP for best all around canopy here and any container that fits you. However, any BASE specific canopy (sized for you) will get you by. I jump OSP, BJ, FOXxs, in both Pin and Velcro.

Get the best you have money for and modify as you go. As always, YMMV

Matt

Quick question about the OSP....
i have heard that they do not have very much forward speed in full flight,
is there any merit to this?
the story i heard was in moab a few people were pca'd from a cliff and the 2 people with OSP canopies didnt make it dow to the landing area, and had to climb down from the talus they landed on.

So far I haven't had any issues making it to our LZs (some require long flights over nothing but forest) with the OSP due to glide ratio/speed. I would almost argue that it has near as much range as my Blackjack. Of course, BJ is 260 ZP ~150 jumps, OSP is 265 ~100 jumps. I'm 190lbs. I have only done a couple jumps back to back, same object, same conditions. Long flights (1000' vert, semi-straight line) I notice a difference but on shorter flights, everyone lands at the same spot. This is just my unscientific observations, YMMV.

FWIW - a 265-OSP is bigger than a 260-BJ
and not just by 5 square feet, so that helps.

this is what I was wondering as well. that osp is close to a 290 correct?

no it's closer to a 280.

refer to page 10 section 4 of this manual:

http://www.baserigs.com/...oll_sep08_letter.pdf

I was going to put (~280) in the post but figured that most everyone knows that Atair measures differently. That is also why it is not a good direct comparison of the two canopies.

FWIW Matt will consistently out glide me in his OSP. I mostly jump a Flik 308 4/7 no ZP loaded at .7 - .72, but I still prefer the Flik. 4 upper control lines works well for me.

What is the relative age/wear of the canopies?

I often see people who swear that their new canopy is the awesomest thing ever, when in fact what's impressing them is it's newness (because new fabric is less porous, and hence new canopies have better glide and stronger flare).

On average, newer canopy models have newer canopies in circulation, too.

It's rare to see an Apples to Apples (both brand new) or even Oranges to Oranges (both with the same age/wear) comparisons.

His OSP has twice the jumps my Flik has and it still beats me in distance. I'm sure there are many reasons as to why, but the bottom line is, it flies longer even when we open at the same height. The OSP is a pretty rad canopy, slider up or down, but I love the flight characteristics of my big-ass Flik.