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is there anything to be learned from the incident at perrine a couple days ago?
was it gear related?
bridle wrap?
pin tension?
ive heard a few different stories, just looking for clairification, and wonder why it hasnt been brought up yet?

Which incident? The splash or the guy who flew himself into the rocks?

I think the splash is the one keeping most of us awake at night, sweating...

~ Chris

The splash

Gossip in the rumor mill . say's ???

Low # jumper doing Gainer w/ pin-lock
&
Someone with minimal to Zero BASE mechanics & jumps with Packed-crossed-toggles piloted himself into the canyon wall ???
.

ive heard pin lock, pin cover lock, bridle entanglement, weird corner on rig.
dont really care about whuffo on the rocks, im concerned for friends jumping said container.

I spent some time reviewing the video, but I did not see the jump in person.

I'll see if I can type up my thoughts and post some still frames from the video when I have a chance, but my short conclusion:

There is a still frame from the top video which shows a clear deflection of the bridle as it crosses the jumpers arm. I cannot think of a way in which this is possible unless the bridle was caught under the jumpers arm.

Extraction appeared to occur when the jumper was in a partially back to earth position. Inflation is substantially delayed, and the canopy does not appear to reach line stretch normally.

There is apparently some bottom video, but I have not seen it and cannot say if it reveals anything else.

The video is both choppy and pixellated, and 2 different people viewing it can come to 5 different conclusions.

It is my personal opinion that the container was not at fault in this incident.

I think that's substantially accurate for the first incident.

The jumper had signed up for a First Jump Course beginning the day after his accident, and decided to attempt his first jumps without supervision before the course began. He apparently made a major packing error followed by major canopy flight errors. At this point I'm sure he wishes he'd just waited 12 more hours for his instructor to arrive in town.

If crossed toggles jumper is going to make a full recovery then that is funny as shit!

No offence Hayes but dude was pretty messed up had to zap him back to life no matter what the circumstance I don't see humor in that not that I think that is what you meant. Just a forum but speedy recovery to all.

Well I am sticking-up for the lad and a BIG FuckYou, to what everybody must be thinking of him .
I say. " Kudos " to the boy for making his 1st Rigging mistake and BASE Jump prior to attending his BASE FJC and formal training . I also feel your missing the enrichment gained of this to his BASE Jumping experience . He has now removed the emotional strain and apprehension felt by all 1st timers, By getting that pesky 1st Canopy Strike and Emergency Evac. behind him . ...... <|; )
.

So I'll Reiterate the "if" in my statement. And Ray, feel free to Fuck yourself instead. Dont make me re-summon Death Ray. I see this, with the info given, no different as someone just buying gear and hucking themselves off a bridge. It sucks that someone got injured badly. But it seems like more guts than logic from the few posts made so far. Best of recovery to the guy who got his leftys right and rightys left. No hard feelings meant.

Edited to change then to than, to appease the grammar nazis.

Way to show your instructor that you are ready to take BASE seriously. Even if he survived I would have refused to let him participate in the course afterwards.

How the fuck did he manage to get all the way over to the canyon wall? Some jumps I struggle just to make it to dry land.

When Darwin wants to prove a point, things have a way of just working out. Like Ray said, kudos to the jumper for killing many birds with one stone - first BASE jump, first injury, first rigging mistake, first dumb ass moment when you fly yourself into an obstacle under a perfectly good parachute and first time you get made fun of on the internet.

"If more morons got injured more often, people would finally realize that it's not always fun and games. Sometimes you need to break a bone or two, or the whole spine"

Is there any way we could make this potato bridge safer? People with zero experience seems to be way too attracted to this place. Maby put foam on the walls? Or maby make the bridge higher so people would have more time to correct their errors. I also think someone should supervise all jumps and not let beginners do too dangerous shit. It´s becoming a disneyland...

btw I have never bee n there.. I would like to, someday, when I´m ready.

definitely. at least build a bigger ramp.

It was DisneyBASE here a long time ago.

Part of the fundamental culture of BASE is it's unregulated nature.

I am the person with the largest personal investment in legal BASE here. I have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in my school here (leaving aside the substantial difficulties of relocating my life here) which would be rendered useless if the bridge were closed to BASE.

I do not support any formal regulation of jumping here, for any jumper or group of jumpers, regardless of their experience level.

Maybe just spray paint arrows on the ground.

how on EARTH do you cross toggles, or have your lines missriged and not catch it during the packing sequence? thats foreign to me. granted some whuffos whove never base jumped MAY not know any better, but thats why i had a mentor for a year before i ever set foot on that bridge.

I agree with you, but anything is possible. I have a friend who is now a very competent jumper and made a similar mistake on his first or second (I can't remember which) jump.

We were all beginners once, and we all made some mistakes that would seem pretty silly to us now.

I watched the splashdown video probably 100 times. I still think it is pin lock. There are a couple of frames going by his elbow but the other frames show the bridle above his shoulder fully tensioned. He also had no burns on his arm from a bridle and his story of reaching back and pulling on the bridle is in line with the video I have seen.

What really bugged me is the way the manufacturer jumped on bridle wrap even though the video shows other problems. This isn't the first time there has been a pin lock on a Bad Seed container resulting in serious injury. Having said that, it doesn't mean the rig caused the pin lock but brushing the whole incident off a bridle wrap is leaving a potentially deadly problem unaddressed. It was taken a step further when Brandon showed up at the hospital to let the guy know it was actually his fault. This goes well beyond protecting a business and was just a shitty move, considering that he doesn't 100% know what happened. I can write a lot more about this and I will when I have time but I can honestly say that there is more to this than just a bridle wrap.

I'd like to hear more insight into this too.

As far as the crossed-toggles guy, he didn't hit a cliff. He hit a boulder in the rock garden just shy of the hike up. It is correct that he jumped the day before his FBC was starting, but he received training from other experienced jumpers before making his jump. Despite the packing problem, he was trained on dropping a toggle in case of a brake problem, like this. He must've just freaked out and forgot his training. He was flight-for-lifed, but is making a stable recovery. Broken femur, wrist, ankle, face, maybe more.
This is all word-of-mouth through a friend that was there with him. Just wanted to clear this incident up a bit. Cheers

Shame on you! I was there with Brandon and my daughter both times visiting the jumper at the hospital. We are deeply concerned of what happen and for that we will remain in contact with the jumper, but for you to say that we went to the hospital and told jumper to his face that it was his fault you are completely wrong. You were not there in that room when we were visiting. You truly are an asshole! My family does not care for your comments or thoughts.

Post the video so we can all make up an opinion for ourself on whether it was pin lock or bridle wrap...how does that sound?...

Please leave that discretion to the jumper for it is his video to share.

Finally someone gets it...

When I think of Frohlich this sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O8kRTVkjEI

Or just remove to stop people from wingsuiting.

Its not like he died..

A moderator should split this into two threads.

As for the crossed toggles dude. There is no excuse for that and he deserves to be made an example of for his stupidity no matter what his injuries are. There's no place in this sport for coddling and there is no excuse for mistakes like that! If I ever bust myself up for something so stupid PLEASE make fun of me with a vengeance.

As for the splash: Brandon is a good guy. I have a really hard time imagining that he would be so cold as to point blame at others before knowing all the details.

I wish both people a full recovery and hopefully the dipshit with the crossed toggles learned his lesson and slows the fuck down once he heals up or else joins a bowling league.

(As far as the ramp is concerned I think it should be angled differently, that should solve things. )

I wonder what the family of the jumper would think if he went in?

Stating nothing, just offering some perspective.

As far as gear goes, you get what you pay for. Time in the sport and all that..

.
Heard was a PCA . so that leaves a shitload of height & fly time . Let that be a lessn to smoke it down next time .
.
.

Hey the old proven standard of Velcro is looking sweeter & sweeter everyday Huh . w/ No Pin-lok No Bridal Misrouting .
.

What kind of experience? What kind of training? Whoever they are I hope they never give this so called training ever again! A little bit of knowledge in any extreme sport is a dangerous thing!
Sounds like this very easily could have been a fatality. What these so called experienced jumpers should have done was tell him to wait the 12hrs for proper instruction!

Lessons for both the jumper and the others here....glad it wasn't worse

I require video.
Someone give me video.
Please.

People go to the Potato bridge to learn if they even WANT to BASE jump. Shortly after their first jump, they find out if they even CAN jump and land a parachute successfully. Let's face it, BASE jumping is really easy when it goes right. However, when it goes wrong, it becomes one of the most difficult things you have to do: fight to survive.

There are so many people that jump off that bridge. A lot of them have absolutely no background in any reaction intensive sport (mountain biking, climbing, skiing, snowboarding, etc) other than skydiving. Skydiving/paragliding is by far the best for canopy control, but you can also do 200 jumps and still be slow as hell. A "low pull" at 2,000 feet in skydiving is a height of a cliff that I would kill to have in my back yard. The good thing at that bridge is you can learn to react quickly, granted you don't make a mistake that injures you like these. Is there line that we can draw to say BASE is really safe for certain people, but a terrible idea for others? No, because everyone feels they have the right to BASE jump and they sure as hell do! However, knowing you have the right to, and the ability to are completely different things.

Disclaimer: This is not a condemnation of anyone. It's just merely an observation from someone who spends quite a bit of time at the bridge. Take it with a grain of salt, for I am not the most experienced out there.

P.S. The Bad Seed issue needs to be addressed. This may not be relevant to this specific issue but it has been known to be the driving factor behind a few malfunctions. That, to me, is not acceptable in the BASE community to sit idly by and not take a good hard look at what could be fundamentally wrong with the container.

The safety of my friends is more important than ANYONE's reputation. If that makes me an asshole in your eyes, then I will gladly accept that. There are a few theories on what happened but brushing this off as bridle wrap and back to business as usual is irresponsible.

Even simple bridle wrap doesn't explain the rest of the jump, especially considering that every subsequent frame of video (after the deflected bridle/ elbow image) appears to show a bridle making a straight line from the pin, over the shoulder, and straight to the bridle. This corroborates exactly with the jumper's explanation as well as the complete lack of bridle burns or abrasions on his arm.

Pin locks can happen for a number of reasons but less than a year ago, a pin lock on a poorly designed Menace seriously injured one of my good friends. Get as angry as you like about what I say but I don't have a financial stake in this argument.

This was 100 % a pin lock

This is a serious issue with Badseed...

Fix your gear or stop selling a crappy product, Badseed

Can someone please post details behind the previous pinlock incident referenced in this thread ?

I have spent last few hours trying to figure out how a pin lock can be a design problem as opposed to a rigging problem and my only deduction is a design that will rotate a pin such that it cannot be disloged. Scary, but in my mind very unlikely.

Not defending nor accusing anyone, simply trying to analyze this. Anyone ?

I'm a nub... when you guys say he crossed his toggles... you mean he set the right toggle on the left riser and vice versa ?

did this guy have no skydiving experience? presumably when you have that much altitude and time to sort out problems you can just switch to risers? or un-cross your toggles if you're slider down.

No disrespect meant here, but the purpose of this incident forum is for BASE jumpers to evaluate incidents and learn from them for the purpose of jumper safety. This is a serious incident that has implications regarding gear safety. We are all experimental jumpers in the field,and there are certainly concerns about equipment, especially in BASE where gear is not under any scrutiny from regulatory standards, in other words it is all based on trust and performance.
I agree with Matt F's concern, and while I have met, and liked the manufacturere of this gear, that is not the point.
I don't know what your knowledge of BASE gear, or even the sport is? but based on your profile on this website, perhaps you might give people some idea of your expertise and experience in this regard.
Regards, and respect, B.

I dont want to make the same mistake. I very well could. I'm an asshole noobie...and i'm ass backwards.

My view from outside the box is that many new jumpers are mentally and emotionally unstable...even suicidal. their disconnect from reality is harmful to the sport. I think the traditional mentor to apprentice approach is essential and saves lives. the old way must survive.

I have seen it happen too, with a very experienced skydiver, and not on his first BASEjumpe.

Overall, it seems like that with or without ramp, with of without rules, with or without canyon walls, people will find a way to hurt themselves (yes, including me), or worse.

what?
which box are you outside?
how many suicidal new jumpers have you met?

You don't even know what having your toggles crossed means. As it stands, your opinion counts for nothing. You should do some more reading before you post just for the sake of it

What if the Mentor is ?
Ha!
Take care,
space

+1
I suspect that they may mean that the bridle was prevented from pulling the pin in some way and not an actual true pinlock scenario. From what I can understand it sounds like the guy pulled in an orientation other than belly to earth which greatly increases the possibility of bridle interaction on many parts of any container. I can't for the life of me understand how a true pinlock could possibly be cleared in freefall. However, I can see how a bridle hang up could prevent the pin from being pulled either temporarily or permanently.
Also the references to the lack of friction burn as evidence of a pinlock over a bridle hang up are some what ridiculous. How much friction do you think would be generated in a few seconds of sub terminal freefall.
Before haters be hating. I don't know Brandon and to be honest I don't particularly like his gear. So I'm not a BadSeed Fan Boy.

I am with Matt this one. From what I have heard this cannot be summed up as just a bridle wrap, heard the same from another VERY reputable jumper. This needs to be discussed in detail and if all points aren't addressed it is just that, irresponsible. Regardless of reputation and how it will be tarnished or not. This is an incident forum, let's discuss the incident in full.

https://vimeo.com/m/66274675

pw: pinlockmalfunction

I am taking it down in a few hours.

Lets discuss it then. What is the detailed description of the first incident? What are the known details of the last incident? I believe there is a video of the last incident, post the video so others can also come to a conclusion of their own. Was there a video of the first "incident"? If so post it.
So far there is a few people making their opinions known but then failing to supply any of the details that led them to their conclusion.

Thanks Asshole for the video

Does look like the PC got to full bridle length...

Has any one tried to replicate this on the ground?

Is there any chance it was the pin cover that held?

But it looks to me that he has rotated to vertical and possibly past before the PC inflates and starts to pull.


This is what I'm thinking. Especially if he is vertical before the PC inflates. Could possibly have the bridle tugging at the bottom edge of the pin cover.

this is what i see:

PC hesitation (bridle to full stretch)

over-rotation

PC deployed, jumper on back (and/or head-high)

at this point... many bridle induced container locks are likely.

Do you have some bottom video we can watch? Or just another top angle?

The video I watched doesn't show 100% anything. It's pixellated and skippy. I'd love to see the video that shows some kind of answers, and it sounds like you've got it. Can you share it with the rest of us, please?

Thanks.

Matt, I really like you man, and I think of you as a friend, so please don't take this as an attack on you, but when I read:




Your statement just a few lines above an advertisement for your sponsor (a competing company) seems a little inconsistent.

If you'd like I can email you a link to a design induced pin lock on a major manufacturer's (not Bad Seed) gear.

I understand that emotions run high at a time like this, but let's please try to refrain from name calling.

Thanks.

thanks for the video, i didnt want to attend this "discussion" with very little people having information and a lot of people just specultating based on nothing.

although i only got the 720p video here one thing popped up to me:

ok, seems like pin lock on the first view,
BUT why are his feet visible in front of him for so long time (you can see his spread feet over contrast of river for the time he is in a standup position). this bothers me because if it was pinlock, the pc should pull him to a slight headlow (since its the lower pin) position, but he stays in standup position for long time. this could imply (although not visible on video) that bridle was entangeled/hung on something on his upper body (under arm, around arm, side of helmet)

what pc was on there?
a 42" pulls a lot after 2 secs, enough to violently change your position and current rotation, felt that myself on a fucked up frontflip with bridle under arm, its like running into something with your shoulder. it suddenly stopped further rotation. after 3 or more seconds a 42" will pull you wherever hes going....

im not out for saving badseeds ass here, still possible that there has been a lock anyways, i dont know. would be interesting to have a closer look on one of those containers, they are quite rare here in europe.
why is everyone running mad at badseed for possibly producing a rig that is prone to pin-locks in certain fucked up pull angles? there are plenty of those problems with other rigs, who of you running wild here jumps a prism, gargoyle, etc?

i you get a new/used rig, pack it, and take your time at home on your couch an TRY to produce a pinlock with this container. so you know what could possibly cause problems, what to look out for, and what kind of jumps you maybe shouldnt do with a certain setup (eg. doing slider down barrel rolls with a prism 1.5, with the stiffer pin protektor flap closed)
so yes, it would be interesting if theres a design weakness in those containers, just to know it and how to get around, but theres a label in every fckn base container that states something like "consider yourself a testjumper" and now everyone plays horror stricken and tries to blame a single manufacturer for a not event yet proven design weakness.

btw. what did actually happen to "leave pin protektor flap open for slider down"?

and finally, KNOW YOUR GEAR!

valid points. however i'm not sure that a PC locked to the pin flap would change his position much. but who knows.

personally i test all my gear when i configure it, with crazy pull angles and wraps and have never been able to produce a lock. if i had, i probably would not have ever jumped that rig. and i've owned and jumped many, including a prism which i had no problems with.

The original Prism had an issue with non-shriveling velcro on the bridle. It was replaced with a tuck flap fairly early on. I've got both versions.

right on... admittedly the prism i owned was well modified.

if it had been retrofitted with a harder stiffer pin protektor flap (i think i heard prism 1.5 for the sum of those mods including the velcro), close the pin protekto flap with pin orientated with eye on left side making a sad smiley face, put the rig on a friends back, now try to pull the bridle towards the left side of the container (like you would end up in a overrotated barrel roll)

Here is a link to a screen shot I grabbed off the video:

https://docs.google.com/...cjA/edit?usp=sharing

I tried to attach it to this post, but the image is too large and I don't want to reduce the quality even further.

To my eye, to looks like the bridle is deflected as it passes across the jumpers arm, with the angle of the bridle between the rig and the arm different from the angle of the bridle between the arm and the PC.

I don't see a way this could happen unless the bridle was interacting with the jumpers arm.

if you pay close attention, please tell me how the bridle goes from this frame (completely clear of wrappage) to a wrap on the arm.
there was no bridle wrap.
he would have had to reach up and wrap his arm around the bridle following this frame.
he does not do this.
again, there was no bridle wrap.

Look later in the video, when he reaches for the risers he is in headup position.
I'm not an expert in this, but at that moment when you are head up and the bridle is going straight up right next to your arm you could do that.

Around here
http://www.hellis.me/Untitled.jpg

Actually if you watch the video zoomed in and in slow motion, he does more or less exactly that. He "windmills" his right arm back and up, then down and forward. It looks to me like he hooks the bridle when he does that.

Let me see if I can get some more still grabs of that.

Here's the full series of frame grabs, one frame at a time, from the point where he's head down to the point where he's head up.

The easiest thing to do is open them all in a single viewer, in order, and then scroll through them one at a time using the arrow keys, to see the progression.

https://drive.google.com/...zYVk&usp=sharing

Apparently Google drive is still trying to sync, so you should probably give it 20 minutes or so to let all the images upload.

I definately don't see a clear bridle wrap here. It might be, that he caught the bridle unter his arm, right after the screenshot Tom posted (I totally see your point tom), but i am quite sure he would have had some kind of (burn) marks on his arm from the bridle pulling all the way till the splash, if that happened.
Pretty much the only thing i'm sure about is that I can't see it clearly happening on the video. This is very scary indeed.

Do you guys have more information on the incident? Was a pincheck performed? (since the video is from another guy on top, he should know i guess).

One way I've heard of a possible pinlock is through too weak pin-tesion, pulling the hole of the pin through the loop, which effectively locks the container. But this should be easily seen during a pin check. I also wonder why the pin-protector-flaps were closed ...

Since nobody said anything yet, I assume we don't know about the condition of the rig after he was recovered? Were the pins still closed?

And most importantly, how is the jumper doing? Since it wasn't stated I guess he's still alive?

 

nope... that was the first thing i noticed.

I don't think he would have burn marks because he was already at bridle stretch, but if he did have a late wrap around his arm (which is possible) wouldn't his pins at least rotate and pop?

What is the angle on the bottom of the stiffened pin flap? Is it steep like an odyssey or gargoyle or is it closer to perpendicular to the BOC?

Anybody know what his closing loops looked like? Some manufactures don't finger trap them, and some jumpers don't think to do it themselves to keep the pin eyelet from pulling through during goofy situations.

no youre not, the hesitation is the thing that put him in this crappy situation in the first place, with a faster inflated pc and therefore opening it would have been a pretty neat gainer.

the filling behaviour of a round is a pretty well known thing (see also references here: http://www.watchthybridle.com/2011/12/pc-hesitations/)
your pc has a certain volume of air that fits in there, so when packing it, the tighter you put the skirt togerther (where mesh and zp meets) the smaller the opening that lets air in. so generally speaking, the bigger you leave that opening, the faster its going to inflate.(statistically, if you do 100 jumps each with a tight packed skirt and a wide open skirt, you will experience less hesitations)
its like filling a bathtub either with a straw or a firehose....

but when doing so you have to take care that the dome line in the center of the PC cant entangle with anything (like with an internal handle this is a pretty bad idea)....

how is the jumper doing?

The jumper posted a video on FB from his hospital bed
so yes, he is alive, broken femur, ribs, etc. but healing.

why the pin-protector-flaps were closed

There are different theories about tuck tabs being open
or closed... For dirty low jumps I personally open both
the riser covers and the pin cover, but Blitzkreig and
many other experienced guys leave them closed.

However, for stowed jumps, especially floppy-do's,
I always close them and honestly can not recall ever
seeing any one leave them open for this kind of jump.

pulling the whole pin through the loop

The loop on a proper closing loop for SKY or BASE will
be big enough to allow a pull-up cord and tip of a pin
to go through but NOT so big as to allow the head of
the pin (circle that attaches it to the bridle) to pass.
I routinely replace shitty closing loops on others' rigs.

i tell all students that this flap stays open for slider down, and most of my jumping friends over here leave it open aswell. (theres not so many slider down enthusiasts here anyways..)

especially for floppy-do's!
a common denominator for a lot of those lock-ups/hesitations is aerials/not-belly-to-earth orientation, and a closed pin protektor flap.
i cant see the downside of an open pin protektor flap for flips, besides a little style-point-reduction.... (of course except exit points with snag points behind you, etc...)

if i recall right some manufacturers even state in the manual that that thing is supposed to be open for all slider down. (i would have to look up all manuals, im sure about morpheus though)

A pincheck was performed, by two fellow jumpers in fact. One being a VERY well respected jumper.
One being a VERY cautious jumper.

The flap was closed for the jump as well.

^Told to me by a jumper on the load

gorpo entanglement perhaps?

Maybe the jumpers footy would tell, but unfortunately it's in the drink....

 
I'm just going to make some comments about curved pins in general. Be advised, I build a lot of shit and most of it is... weird. So I get to see a lot of malfunction modes. Be advised that curved pins are far from infallible. I've had problems with them. As usual the devil is in the detales. I've jammed pins. With out getting hung up on the where's and why fors of the projects, they aren't really relevant. For the pin to extract it has to pull sideways out of the loop. The curve allows you to get away with pulling outward most of the time. It does this by rotating into the plane of the pull. That allows the curve to allow it to rotate and roll out of the loop. We all know this. But what I can tell you is this. It doesn't always work. I've bent pins. Fortanently the loops broke, it's a heave payload thing, don't get hung up on the details. Here's how it allways happioned for me. Think smilely face. If the loop is on the out side to top of the ring on the pin then there is enough offset to make the pin rotate. Think of a line through the loop tangent to the bar of the pin at that point. For the pin to rotate the force on it must be off set from that line. In fact it must be on the "top" side of the smile. Now if you deeply set the pin that line swings around to almost in line with the center line of the ring. With out enough off set from that line the rotating force decrease. You're still pulling on it really hard but you're not trying to rotate it. Now if the loop from the bridle is around the bottom side of the ring of the smilely face and the pin is deeply seated you can actually be on the other side of the line. You can be trying to rotate the pin point downwards into the container. Now let's say you have a tight flap that is pressing down on the pin, squeazing it. That rotating force has to be enough to offset the preasure of the flap. In the mean time you are still putting a lot of force on the pin bending it up. I've actually bent pins almost 90 deg at the junction of the ring. No shit got them around here some where. Keep in mind that it was over a thousand pounds of load on the bridle, it was a recovery system not relevant here. The point is that these pins do have failure modes. It was relitivly easy to get into them because we were using a peace of line for that loop, bridel. Normally a wider tape is harder to shift all the way over onto that side of the ring of the pin. This is no shit. I've got the bent pins around here some place...

I'm not saying that this is what happioned here. What I am saying is that pins are far from infallible.

What can be done about this? Well I think we could maybe tweek our pin design a little bit. Right now the pins, at least the ones I have, the ring is in line, centered, with the shaft. What if we offset it to the inside of the smilely face. So that the edge of the ring is tangent to the shaft. Like a curly cue rather then a... circle center on the bar. And maybe the other side should be a solid triangle going down to the shaft so that the pin can not get too close to the ring. Far enough so that the line tangent to the shaft at the loop will always be away from the ring. Does any of that make any since? The flip side is how tall are you making the pin as it rotates upwards. Remember you have to lift the tight flap up that much to let it rotate. And just for the record we did build pins that were more like this in the past before we had access to these nice stamped ones some pins were bend and welded from wire in the curly cue style.

Does this have any reliveance? I don't know. I'm just saying that I've seem pins fail this way. Makes you rethink that old Velcro rig. See we weren't that dumb after all.

Lee

I don't know Brandon, I won't even speculate on this incident.

If you want to be a real base manufacturer, if an incident happens and there is speculation that is may be due to faulty design, you make a statement, evaluate if its really true, and you decide a course of action. See asylum broken lines on feather, and apex similar situation. The worst thing to do is to get angry, jump to conclusions, or just ignore it. If this was a gear issue and someone dies after you just ignore the situation, that's pretty damn shitty, reputations be damned. True or false, bad seed rigs have issues with pin lock, that's all I care to know.

A long time ago, I had a friend who did a lot of flippy-dos and twisty-flips. He once told me that he preferred velcro rigs for aerials because they opened more consistently in all body orientations.

with the helmet or without?

Without, the gopro came off.

 

Nice post Lee. Would love to see a pic of those twisted pins. Do you think that by just not seating the pins all the way it would reduce and/or eliminate this occurrence from this possibly happening?

The ONLY thing I do not like about Thread is this . & this is for everyone who is saying Pin-Lok & even the the 'comment' about PC & load tape length . This is NOT Proper what you are doing without evidence of ill or improper building of of a Manufactures Gear . Or proof of Gear built that can do Possible Harm or Death by Mechanical failure or improper construction being used .

And Unless you can do a Mock-up with the Manufactures Gear and accompanied WITH proper logging of documentation of the reproduced mechanical Pin-Lok or any other ill or improper building of of a Manufactures Gear .
To prove Gear built can do Possible Harm or Death by Mechanical failure or improper mechanics of construction being used . Then the BASE.com public forum is just a enabling foundation being used for promoting ' fictitious Gear-Fear ' with ' slander and character assassination ' .

I am NOT On Anybody's Side . with Any Bias or Agenda . I am just saying there is a Right Way and a Wrong Way .
Speaking and accusing on a public forum in this level, is just attacking with slander & it is wrong & @ minimum just in BAD Taste . There needs to more than free thinking and Emotion or Guessing .
The 1st and proper thing, You need to Do the proper mockup & Doc. and make private presentation & Advisement of your findings to the people who build the Gear in Question . ( With Proof ) . Then after that it is all up to you as to how ( Publicly ) or ( Privately ) you want to handle the situation .
.

edit: for quick spelling correction.
.

Disclaimer: I don't intend to badmouth or promote anybody's gear. I have seen the potential for this specific failure mode in the design of several different rigs circulating through the base world today. I think it's worth discussing here as it could very well be a/the cause of this incident.

Here's what I think may have happened. I have observed this failure mode on several different designs from several manufacturers.
In a very head high orientation it is possible to create a pin lock if:
1. The pin is pointed up and buried most or all of the way into the closing loop.
2. The rig is manufactured so that the distance from the bottom grommet to the bottom edge of the pin cover flap is shorter than the length of the pin.
3. and/or the flap is flimsy (limp) enough to be shriveled a bit by the upward force of the bridle.

This transferes the pull force of the PC onto the tuck flap at a very acute angle (which doesn't exert enough force on the flap to open it) rather than onto the pin.

The attached pictures show me picking up my rig by the bridle. Note that the bridle shrivels up to the pin and the cover flap stays closed, supporting the weight of the entire rig. I can pull pretty damn hard and the pin stays locked. The best ways to clear it are to jerk the bridle (pretty impractical in the real world), or change the direction of the pull (by not being that head high in the first place, rolling back to flat, or onto the side.)

These photos are of a Zac, though this type of pin lock can be created on a number of different rigs from different manufacturers. I also think the problem can vary with different sizes of the same make and model of rig as patterns scale up and down. Try this with your rig and see if you can recreate it.

In an severly un-regulated sport as BASE where all the manufactures produce their gear with the no-guarantee what so ever disclaimer attached I think discussing/questioning/criticizing gear like this is totally fair and justifiable.

really? re-read your post, your whole post is based upon that this was really a gear related incident. its pure specultation, even on a personal level since you state that his behaviour is "pretty damn shitty". WHAT DID HE EXACTLY DO WRONG?


wtf? when did this incident happen? a week ago? you seriously DEMAND a analysis, official statement, and probably a remedy within a few days? (about an incident where its still questionable if it even was a real gear problem)

maybe you want some flowers and a personal written apology for hurting your feelings and actually making you aware that even commercial grade base gear is not bulletproof? (again, still not sure that this was even really the case)

cut the guy some slack, im pretty sure hes working on it. and since you mention asylum, it took more than 2 months for a bulletin, same with apex.


who jumped to conclusions? you did, a few others here did, thats it. i didnt yet read any premature statements or conclusions from badseed. so who are you refering to?

why? did this just officially turn into a badseed bashing thread, or does it have anything todo with this incident?


if theres one thing i can see from that video, than its that the PC was attached properly and also that the PC seems to be made in a proper way, since although it is pushed way over its intended load, it is oscillating very little...

> WHAT DID HE EXACTLY DO WRONG?

overrotated the gainer and wore a snag hazard

he didnt deploy in stable belly-to-earth position

no container is guaranteed to open in arbitrary body position possibly combined with a wrap on a camera or smth else

it only makes sense to talk about pinlock flaw if pin locks when bridle is pulled within a normal cone of directions (belly-to-earth jump, tracking, wingsuit).. everything else is jumper error

respect your gear

.
Good line of thought
& an important note when adding your own personal stunts and taking different approaches either purposely or accidental when going away the ( Safety Standard ) of Flat and Stable exits & deployments of BASE jumping .
BASE is unregulated & with No boundaries . If you want 'Boundries' and Half-Assed Guarantees then go to the wonderful world of Skydiving with TSO's, regulated & organized industries and Drop Zones .

By "he" Hirschi meant Brandon, the manufacturer of the gear--not the jumper.

Wow

oops, i apologize

nothing to wow here - u put gear outside of its working envelope, this is what u gonna get

dont put your gear outside of its working envelope, period!

cant stop gainer rotation completely for 100% clean belly-to-earth pull from pull to canopy inflation? - don't do gainers, period - practice from balloon or higher bridge until u can nail it

^

This response is bullshit and goes against the KISS principle. The limit should be the wearer and not the gear. People have unstable exits and shit goes wrong, that's a given. This is pretty simple design 101 principle.

I'm still waiting to hear, in detail, how the design is at fault?
I'm also curious as to the amount of emotion surrounding this incident.

well, the pull timing wasnt actually that bad, so it was the pc hesitation that gave him time to overrotate.
its kind of hard to train for that, i also already had a longer pc hesitation on a gainer that put me on my back until i had a canopy...

im pretty sure everyone here that has done a number of slider down aerials had his fair share of not-so-perfect jumps and most likely some close calls.
even if your the perfect flippedy-flop-whatever god, at a certain point you will run into one of those by-chance-happenings like a pc hesitation (even with a perfectly packed and thrown one) that puts you in a fucked up situation, going from there its
- proper preparation (as already stated above, opening the pin protector flap could be helpful, you maybe also want to think about reducing the number of snag hazards on your body for flips, like ellbow pads, wrist watches, gopros),
- beeing well trained (eg. to override no-so desirable reflexes, if you catch bridle under arm, dont tuck in but stretch arms out, if you overrotate to stay in longest possible position and not tuck in, etc),
- and finally a lot of luck

welcome to slider down aerials.

the above can be applied to all other types of basejumps and is not limited to aerials....

I am not commenting on bad seed, just the perception a rig or any equipment should have limits. We know people go unstable and if a pin lock can happen in any orientation it's a design flaw. Blame shitty designers, not the user.

Kinda like Marty went public after the A-lines snapped on a Feather and a person died ?

to a certain degree, thats right, its also how our gear evolved. (best example for this is the shrivel flap, after one or a few people were unfortunate enough to find out that if they go head low that thingy isnt going to open...)

but on the other hand, if people dont put the brakelines in the tailgate, or assemble the 3 ring in the wrong way, its for sure not the manufacturers responsibility.

as seen above in eUrNiCc's post, you can produce this kind of high pull force scenario also with zak's, it also works on perigee pro's. its not going to happen on a gargoy, because the flap design is different, but they have a similar issue.

easiest thing to fix most of those problems is leaving the pin protektor flap open for all slider down fun...

Just tried to reproduce it on my PPro and an Apex DP. No luck. Twice it was under 4 pounds more pull force on the DP (spring scale) but as soon as the rig started to get light the pin popped. Just saying...
I think I'll keep my covers closed for now.

 
I cant find the really bent ones. First pic is just the type of pin. second and third, that should be flat as in a straight line. Bend on these is about 30 deg. Sorry, the pics suck. I tried to take them with a pos web cam thing.

I am not saying this is what happioned on that jump, but those pins were bent on deployment and both broke closeing loops made from 1000 lb hma rather then turn and release.

Pins are imperfect.

Lee

https://vimeo.com/66356061

Try yourself...on the ground!

No container is guaranteed to open PERIOD. Shit happens.

I can pick up my summit by the bridal if the bottom pin faces up. ( not a surprise, priming would cure that or off set pull ring like riggerlee suggested)

Just found the way. Totally locked. The bridle has to be far enough down and the pins facing up in order for it to lock. I took a photo. Scary!

[quote
I think we could maybe tweek our pin design a little bit. Right now the pins, at least the ones I have, the ring is in line, centered, with the shaft. What if we offset it to the inside of the smilely face. So that the edge of the ring is tangent to the shaft. Like a curly cue rather then a... circle center on the bar. And maybe the other side should be a solid triangle going down to the shaft so that the pin can not get too close to the ring. Far enough so that the line tangent to the shaft at the loop will always be away from the ring. Does any of that make any since?

Kind of like the Vector RSL pins, but curved?



http://www.aerostore.com/...-RP1620-O4I_348.aspx

I just watched the video, I'm curious about what the people on the bottom saw? It looks like the canopy extracted at some point, maybe after the jumper pulled the pins, but never really extended more than a few feet above the jumpers head? Is that right, from the witnesses view? Since the jumper was head high/ back to earth i'm wondering about the bridle getting wrapped on the gopro? If the canopy didn't extend even after extraction a wrap around the gopro mount could prevent the canopy from reaching line stretch also...

Is that the DP?

 
Like that but curved. I think you miss typed.

Lee

Tom,
I played the video back in a stop n go motion so as to be able to freeze the frame for a second but keep the motion going. It appears that the jumper does extend his arm out and get the bridle on the inside of his arm, because as soon as he moves his right arm forward/down you can see the PC being deflected in the same direction and not until he extends his right arm again does the bridle come loose and the PC inflate.

all these experiments with finding weird bridle angles to find rigs "flaws" dont apply to real life as your body won't be statically at the same exact angle for several seconds

the jumper's position changed quite a lot from pull to impact, he even spinned as can be seen on video.. PC oscillated as well.. pin will release with changing angles of pull force.. UNLESS theres smth holding the bridle and not delivering full force to the pin

stop finding imaginry flaws in gear (wrapping bridle around your gorpo then around belly camera, to leg mount, then around your handcam, and then coming to the internets and screaming: looks, its a pinlock!!! bad gear, bad!) - start finding flaws in yourself

shit happens either by itself or by jumpers error

in this case shit didn't happen by itself, jumper invited it. end of story

I agree partially with that, but you're mainly just full of sh!!!!t. Stop being mad, bro. It's good to know all of the limitations of your gear, and that's what I'm playing with since someone brought it up. Tell me again your contributions to this thread? Watch any carnage video and you will see plenty of folks stay pretty damn still all the way to impact.

That was the PPro, and I had to do all kinds of weird stuff with the bridle and pins to get that result. Kinda interesting theory, but the odds are that couldn't be replicated just as cry12345 so eloquently pointed out.

Yup, he emailed everyone with a feather as soon as the incident came to light and said do not use them until further notice.

Never said that it had to happen immediately, Im just saying that the evaluation should happen. From what I heard, he was shown the video and immediately said, oh thats a bridle wrap. If you carefully re-read my post, or just re-read it at an age appropriate level, what I said is that if this gets ignored and then there truly is a problem that causes a death, that would be pretty damn shitty. I made no demands, I just states what I think the proper method for dealing with a potential gear issue by any gear maker should be. This may not be a gear related incident at all, but if there is that much concern that it could be, then reviewing the gear seems like a good place to start. Nice use of caps lock though

<3 Charley

Shane almost went in towing a PC in a head high (post double or single gainer) orientation a long time ago. It was on an extremely commonly jumped two pin rig.

He was able to analyze how to not close it wuite the same, or perhaps left the flap open, not sur,e but he did find a solution to live by for the rest of his jumps. I am not really sure what that solution was but it seems this thread may be on its way to finding it.

Flippy doodles are dangerous. Miles D and Jesse Hall seem to do them a lot and safely. ASk them.

I was prompted to experiment with pin locks after watching another jumper doing the same jump (stowed short delay gainer, overrotated at bridle stretch) from the same object and having back to back identical hesitations with an inflated PC at full bridle stretch on his Zac2. I don't think I'm finding imaginary flaws in gear. I think I'm trying to debug existing flaws so that we can all jump that gear accordingly and so that future rigs can be designed to avoid the same failure mode.

By your logic we don't need velcro shrivel flaps because the best solution is for jumpers to just harden the fuck up and not pull head low.

> stowed short delay gainer, overrotated at bridle stretch
> I'm trying to debug existing flaws
> avoid the same failure mode

u dont get it doncha :)

the "existing flaw" is in the jumper, not in the gear!

u cant debug friction! once the jumper leans on the bridle with thier back, only small portion of pull force reaches the pin.. u cant do anything about this simple physcis fact other than lubricate the whole jumper with astroglide

and if bridle is wrapped around gopro on your head, no tension whatsover reaches the pin (BFL #whatever - australian girl in Malaysia), u cant debug this, just dont have snag points!

if the range of angles can be increased by redesign (like shrivel flap u mentioned), great, but u cant design a foolproof system which will allow jumpers overrotate, wrap bridle on snag hazards and yet save them every time

I'm hearing ya, broski. Working toward Gear progression is so 2012. It's to late to improve function. Im like, "Wake up fuckers!, it's 2013, get your flips right or die!"
serious face

having room for improvement (there's always one!) is one thing.. calling gear which is intentionally put beyond the margins of its normal working envelope flawed is another

if u can prove some particular gear locks the pin when bridle is pulled normally, from stable belly-to-earth, is is a flaw

if u pull bridle at some weird & carefully maintained angle, and/or bridle is wrapped tight around your gopro and pin doesnt pop and u're calling it a flaw, then the flaw is in your head, bro :)

Can this problem not be solved by using nylon cable instead of pins? or will the tension be too high?

That is for you to decide. I'm sure you're a big boy/girl who has learned to think for him/herself. Its my experience.
There are other practices from other manufacturers I also don't like. As an example, 400lb dacron cascaded inner A-B lines are another thing I think was really dumb before there was ever an incident.


I see a PC hesitation. Feel free to disagree.
Does it contrubute? Again, thats for you to decide.


On another note, the Morpheus manual is the only one (that I can see) that instructs the jumper on how to orient their pins when inserted into the closing loops. (like the arch of a bridge). Something else to consider. What do people think are the advantages/disadvantages of this?

I still haven't seen an answer to my other question, has anyone inspected the gear to see if there are burrs on either the closing pins or grommets??

Yup he quietly emailed everyone he could so as not to have to make a public statement. What are the odds that he managed to reach everyone that had a feather in their possession. Slim I bet.

Kinda like how another two jumpers had to almost die before the Flik UL was recalled even though Jeremy had already proved that cascaded 400lb Dacron was a cause for concern.

+10000

That is exactly the point I am making. To this day, Asylum still has no mention of the recall/SB on their website. At least Apex had the decency to post the SB on their site.

as far as the problem discussed in this thread - I think with all the examples and pictures being posted, it's pretty clear that the problem is very unlikely to be specific to a particular manufacturer.

And for the record, I own every single major manufacturer's container, so please don't accuse me of bias.

not @vid666.
I suggest thread split.
Word up is that NBK (Kjerag) has banned velcro rigs for the past few seasons. This is BS if its true. (note:I am a velcro fan but also have a pin rig.I prefer the velcro though.) I maintain the shrivelflap velcro and can understand that some Velcro rigs may have not been maintained and are subject to a grounding. But a blanket grounding?
Let us peruse this logically. scenario a.If one jumps an unmaintained velcro rig, chances of a preemie are pretty high. scenario 2. If one jumps a pin rig, there is the low chance that it doesnt open at all. But the pivotal point to me isnt the chances. It is the results. On scenario a. You are open early and maybe close to the object. Scenario 2 you are dead. Which shall I choose?
An interesting side note. To my knowledge there hasnt been any total malfunctions at Kjerag. Maybe MBA/Patto can reflect on this. It could be mathematical. PC size vs Burble size which is dependent on airspeed.
Anyway, take care all of ya including the velcro haters ;-)
space

Kjerag is a terminal cliff where everyone is tracking/ws flying. Pin rigs are far far superior in this environment compared to a velcro, maintained or not. The reason Kjerag (and probably jumping in all of Norway too) is even legal today is due to the fantastic work Stavanger BASE Klubb has done there. So if they see banning velcro rigs, which is out of date equipment in the terminal environment, as necessary - that is not BS at all. Your butt-hurt velcro-loving feelings is BS. I support the freedom and old codes of BASE as much as anyone but the reality of things in Kjerag dictates some rules and governing.

If that does not suit you, there is a place called Somalia where anarchy is the name of the game and no one will give a damn if you jump velcro

The only defense I can provide for the website thing is that marty doesn't really update the website ever. I think someone does prices for him occasionally, but there hasn't been anything since 2011, and also youll notice theres no mention of the existence of a lightweight container, but many people jump profiles. At that point there weren't that many feathers out there, so Id say the odds were actually quite good. Mine was the first one to have 600lbs continuous and it was the day after the video came to light.

Just a question for those closer to apex, I was kind of surprised that they switched to stronger line, but kept cascades. Any thoughts on this?

http://globalnews.ca/...lk-after-failed-jump

I think we have all overlooked the most important learning point from this video. Pink skinny jeans make you invincible.

My velcro rig is terminal rated ;-P
But back to the points I made. The logic(?) behind it.
Certainly NBK should ground unairworthy gear. But to ground gear that is not unairworthy is a bit harsh doncha think? What if I brought a pin rig with a ripcord and spring PC? (velcro doesnt well with springloaded PCs)
My other fear is litigation for the NBK.
I was going to jump in Somalia but pirates kidnapped me and I was hungry so I paid the ransom with my pin rig and got a Big Mac from the change. They told me if I had a velcro rig I could have had fries with that.
Take care,
Space

I remember at least one premature from a plane with a velcro rig that resulted in fatality. Also, if you factor in that most people start with pin rigs now and there are many more jumpers, I bet the sample set for pin rigs is way higher than velcro at this point.

There is probably someone here that could even prove one way or another statistically which one is safer based on only those points alone.

See link or image:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/.../Fatality_Statistics

I have jumped and owned both

I see no confidence intervals therefore I deem it meaningless

http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Confidence_interval

It's super important in this case considering pin rigs and wingsuits came about at the same time, and a lot of the fatalities are unrelated to container type. That pic is super misleading especially given the conversation.

I think there is something to be said about hucking flips and shit with ~25 total jumps, with borrowed gear, off the bridge...

It's a safe exit, got it, but it's still on the lower side for newer jumpers doing aerials.

Dont forget the GoPro.
Take care,
space

So the extra 4 feet of altitude the jumper gained
from exiting off of the top rail turned out to be
more of a cost than a benefit, bwahahaha

In all seriousness, FL BASE sends their best
wishes for Johnny to make a full recovery!

Dont forget that it is a BASE jump. As Mark Hewitt (A BASE God) told me once, Look at it in perspective. There is a huge planet heading your way on a collision course,
and it aint gonna miss.
Take care,
space

 
I fail to see a compatibility issue between a spring loaded pilot chute and Velcro. As I recall didn't Booth build a belle mount reserve for skydiving that closed with a big Velcro flap. Did he ever TSO that? Always wanted one. You just have to be a little more creative in your design process.

Here's why I like Velcro, perticurly for slider down jumps.

The security of the rig is independent of the volume of the canopy. This assuming you don't try to stuff some thing ridicuasly over sized into it. A pin rig is much more senceative to packing. It depends on the flap tension for the security of the pin. Yes you can try to do a through loop but they can also be senseative.

A pin rig needs to be tight. Ideally It would like to be a cillender. The tension you need lends it self towards narrow rellitivly thick rigs. Some people think narrow rigs are cool because they look so small on your back in the video but they are fundamentally harder to pack. When we first started building pin rigs there was a lot of learning curve in learning how to pack them. There were these wild off heading openings that we couldn't explane. The canopy turning right out of the container.

There have also always been issues with pin tension. It's hard to build a container that keeps even tension as you move, twist, bend.

They are just not as secure. Let me explane that. One inch. That's all it takes to pop that pin. I don't like going hand held with a pin rig. Eaven with Velcro or a tuck tab on the shoulder. Ya, I know you don't think that going unstowed is cool any more but there are time when it's a good idea. In fact there have been time I was very glad I did. when I was pioneering blind exit points and couldn't get a really good look over the edge before I exited. Yeh, not very bright but I have popped a lot of cherries. Another story. Climbing an antenna. Dark night, snagged a bridle and heard the Velcro start to peal. I was able to back up and untangle my self. If I'd had a pin I'd have lost the canopy half way up that mast on a windy night. It would have sucked. There are stories about Velcro popping but this is really more of a pattern set issue. There is a lot of variation in the design of containers and shrivel flaps. And some are a lot more secure then others. So don't confuse poor design with the fundamental concept.

Canopies want to be a certin shape. I did a whole thing once on why reserves are different shapes and how to deal with them in relation to container and free bag design. If you lay out a "basic propack" on the floor that's the natural state/shape/design of the canopy. It's the equivalent of a long fold on a round. Every thing else from that point is a compromise to fit in the container. And I argue that any thing from that point forward is at best neutral in terms of the reliability of the opening. I've seen people fold the sides in once. I've seen people fold the side in twice to try to make it fit into a narrower/pin rig. I've seen people roll the side up like a sassage as tight as they can to try to make it fit. Then it's a question of length but I think that's less of an issue here. I don't think any of this is to the betterment of the canopy. I think the containers width should be based on the natural width of the canopy. I like to fold it in once and try to size the container to acomidate that. A Velcro rig will let you build a wider looser container sized to the width of the canopy rather then worrying about the side flaps having enough tension to insure the security of the pins. I like a rig where the canopy just foldes over and falls into place in the container.

About the only thing I don't think I'd do with a well designed velcro rig is fly a wing suit. but these are some of the reasons why a Velcro is my go to container when I go out looking for something and I'm not exactly sure what I might find.

I have no doubt that some people will disagree with every single thing I've said here. And although I have other gear I will always have a Velcro rig in my closset.

Lee

Complex but fair enough. but how about if we just subtract the wingers. then it would be 94 to 1 instead of 152 to 1.
Feel better?
Take care,
space

But there could have been 100 times more jumps on pin rigs due to first timers not using velcro to start and increase in number of jumps. Without the confidence interval it's meaningless to make a correlation.

People around the sport as long as you probably have a good intuition close to reality, but newer jumpers won't, so it's best not to throw around accusations unless it's provable without a doubt.

Hi RiggerLee,
I was just using that as an example. Airworthy to us riggers is not a compromise. it either is or not. I never go stowed sliderdown anyway. I never cared about coolness and for some reason I am not a victim of peer pressure. Not on this incident but in general I think a velcro closed/pin opened rig is the way to go. I am sure you saw the video of the winger had the top pin extracted midflite. People forget why velcro containers were designed. It wasnt because that the manufacturers couldnt afford to buy the pins. Velcro was more expensive at that time. (JD Walkers rigs)
As for pin tension. that is a new can of worms. If you fold the canopy in containering 2-3 inches different on the top fold, Pin tension can go from airworthy to not.
I read every thing you write like a stalker hahaha. Joking maybe.
Ok, Back to the topic. I find rules without logic(?) BS. But I am willing to listen to the logic(?). I do understand that I dont need rules and the up and coming need guidance but I hope that there is logic(?) behind it.
Take care Lee.
Tracy

Hey Space,

You are correct we don't allow any jumpers visiting kjerag to jump with Velcro rigs anymore on any of the jumps in the lysefjord since end of season 2010 (except eagles nest).
The SBK take on this is that these days we have evolved to jumping terminal objects with pin rigs, That is the stance that we have taken and because of these rules If visiting jumpers don't want to adhere to them then they are free to head off and jump any number of cliffs up in the northern areas of Norway ..

The klubb here in kjerag has been a positive approach to all of Norway and it has helped in previous years win over the general public,which we hope we can do in the future..

My personal thoughts are , I like Velcro rigs but I think they should be used for slider down deployments,Non-terminal.

I have seen a few videos before 2010 and one in season 2010 of nicely mated Velcro rig but at terminal speeds of 20 secs I have seen them start to peel away even when firmly mated....

Each to there own really ...

At the end of the day if you have a Velcro rig then you can go anywhere in the world and jump except in kjerag..

We are the largest Base jumping Dropzone In the world and we look after all our jumpers whilst here , whether its weather patterns or boat and car rides as well as packing course and hiring gear.. The people who come to kjerag come because of this if they come here expecting to not abide by the 3 small rules they can always head to the swiss valley and jump exit points they are not ready for... ,

we don't have really any issues in kjerag and the reason is because we have a well run klubb that all money goes back into the klubb and its expensive fuel and boat costs..Plus its hard to access without boat and car transportation and is the easiest hike in Norway with only a 2-3 hour easy hike..

just out of curiosity.. how many people on this forum have a base Velcro rig made after 2007??

I am not here to prove anything or to promote velcrorigs. I was only commenting on the logic(?) of the blanket grounding.
The numbers speak for themselves. If one wants to base one's life on statistics it is better to seek the better numbers or?
Let us say for example that you are right and I am wrong. What are the consequences? or vice versa?
I still win.
Take care,
space

I was able to recreate the pin lock on my PPro also, but I had to be very creative. The only way the pin would lock was if there was a twist in the bridle between the top and bottom pins and the pin was pointing up with the bridle connection loop on the left side of the pin, and this was not a pin lock 100% of the time. Sometimes just required more force to release.

I also routed the bridle so that the pin was curved left/curved right (both pointing up) and with the bridle/pin connection on the left and right side of the pin and it never locked up, as long as the bridle was flat on top of the pins (with an s-fold in the middle to remove slack) and no twists.

I think this potential mal can be prevented with a simple bridle/pin check, making sure there are no twists in the bridle.

I have not tried this with my Summit yet.

Note: I always route my PPro with the bridle between the grommets and not over the top.

Edit: For vertical pictures.

 
Ok, this is getting a little bit creepy. I don't know where it's going but I'm going to head it off at the pass right here. Just to be perfectly clear. I AM NOT GAY. Just because no woman in this world will ever sleep with my ugly ass does not make me gay. I haven't seen you for years and I don't know what you're into these days. I am not judging you in any way. I have no problem with full marige rights or any thing else. I fully respect your perfectly valid life choices. So please give me the same respect.

So to sumerize. You are free to read any thing you like on the internet but be advised... I am not gay. I will not have your babies. And if you ever pinch my ass you will be bitch slapped.

Now that we've addressed the stalking issue. back to your regularly scedguled programming.

Lee

hahaha. No worries. I am only a stalker for knowledge. The same as someone searching for a mentor (should do). I am married and have 2 children and no gay tendencies. I totally respect your knowledge and want some of it. My 25th anniversery of BASE iscoming up 12 days so I need all the knowledge.
Take care
space

Recreated the same head high orientation, cover closed, pin lock on my Apex DP just now. Kinda freaky.

What is the similar Gargoyle issue? I've been trying to replicate a pin lock on mine and can not.

The highest pin tension I could create actually was with pin curved down (like recommended in the gargolye manual) and with the flap closed with a pull from a head high position offset over the left shoulder.

I just want to add support for the injured jumper. Though he was maybe goproing and doing advanced stuff early on before he took a BASE course, it reflects not on his pc mal so much. Maybe the BASE course could have showed him a better way to pack the PC. But I have had hesi's with my best pc pack. So my point is to lay off the dude, This is a gear prob. And dont Blame the manufactures. All are doing the best they can with the present designs. The design is the prob.
take care,
space

There was an incident in Switzerland where a jumper towed an Asylum pilot chute to impact. I was working there at the time. This stands out in my mind because I built the PC that the jumper used on that jump, so naturally it immediately got my attention.

We learned of the incident shortly after it happened. We asked for as much detailed information about the incident and whether the other jumpers on the load could provide us with any video footage or descriptions of the deployment sequence.

As usual, the production schedule was very full and we were trying to get gear out to customers. Even in spite of a very busy workday and a lot of things to get done, Marty immediately shut down operations and we has a safety stand down.

We pulled items from the same production version as all of the items used by the jumper. We recreated and simulated every permutation that came anywhere near the description of the incident in question. We analyzed every stitch and the placement of each bartack on the pilot chute. We examined the handle attachment. We analyzed the materials from the batch the pilot chute was cut from.

During this process, we came up with a theory about what happened. We tested this theory and recreated the chain of events that must have occurred for this to have happened.

In the end we determined that the jumper must have retained the pilot chute in his hand after pulling it from the pouch, which allowed the bridle to twist and form a loop that the PC partially made it through before the bridle was tightened by drag and formed a knot around the pilot chute.

We waited for confirmation from the field as to whether or not this had actually occurred on the jump in question.

Meanwhile, we recreated this same malfunction on the entire range of pilot chutes including pilot chutes with and without handles. We experimented on the bartacks at the junction between the ZP and mesh load tapes. We looked at each and every component of the entire system that could have possibly interacted with the PC.

The analysis revealed that any pilot chute, regardless of design, would have been rendered ineffective in identical circumstances.

We did receive word from the field that the malfunction that occurred exactly matched what we concluded must have happened.

This all went on behind closed doors so that if there was any possibility, no matter how remote, that the design of the gear could have contributed to this incident, we could issue that information to the jumpers in the field and/or modify the design to remove that possibility from the future use of that gear.

Keep in mind, a modern BASE rig looks the way it does, and has the components arranged the way it does, because a lot of people died and their buddies looked at the gear and figured out that a change needed to be made. If you've just come onto the scene in the last few years, you have not much sight of that.

That's because (and people who know me are aware that Marty and I have had our differences- so I'm not doing any ass kissing here) Marty is a jumper first, and will not let anything go out that door unless its good to go.

In conclusion, just because a press release isn't pushed out immediately doesn't necessarily mean an incident investigation hasn't occurred or isn't underway.



Oh... Ray Losli is still alive?

Ray Losli ALMOST came out to the Perrine last week!

My only concern with this whole incident discussion, is how brandons rig is in question, when a pin lock is pretty much 100% avoidable in and rig, but also possible with and pin rig, (pin tension due to packing, closing loop too short, bridal routing, stuffing the bridal too far under flaps and maybe around a bottomless corner) i prep my pins before every jump, i be sure to not tuck my bridal deep into the lower corners, i jump a badseed 3-5 times a week, and i have zero concern with pin lock, my question is this, If it were any other brand 2 pin, gargoyle, apex dp etc. would anything other than packing error be in question?

Point is it has happened twice recently on his rig and I think you are jumping terminal out of a balloon belly to earth no?

I mix it up, but always belly, still working in my balls, but I am slider down for tomorrow, but been slider up, I go both ways. ;) I'm still trying to figure out how it can be rig oriented, except for an excessively long tuck tab, that seats too deep? I could also see being wedged behind a bottomless corner.

Doubt it. As I said earlier. I am a little skeptical about the emotion surrounding this incident.
Flaws can be found on every other rig out there. You don't hear people calling out those manufacturers.

Agree that it seems most rigs have a flaw that could cause a pin-lock under head-high position with certain pin position conditions.

Earlier in this thread you see it in pictures for the Zack, Perigee Pro and APEX-DP (multiple people noting it was replicated). Also a video of a light pinlock on a gargoyle with the flap open.

I want to see a Bad Seed pinlock replicated that is any different/worse than these.

I'm guessing that the Menace can be pin-locked under similar conditions as it is very similar in design to all the other rigs.

For those of you have been able to replicate a pin lock....do you think you could do it with a spectra closing loop?

I am guessing no. For slider down, I am a big fan of a spectra closing loop on the bottom pin.

You can keep the rig tight with very low pin pull tension.

I too like spectra loops for their lower pin tension. However, are not most of these pin lock scenarios due largely to bridle friction and or leverage that prevents forces being applied to the pin in the correct orientation. Not any true pin tension.

I agree that the primary factor to these locks is leverage (and in some cases a bit of bridle friction on the flap), but the leverage is not absolutey locking the pin, it is causing less than the necessary pull force on the pin. Spectra significantly reduces the pull force needed and could lower the physical ability for the leverage/lock to be maintained due to the incredibly low forces needed to tilt, pull, or otherwise move the pin in a spectra loop. If the pin tilts, pulls or otherwise moves in one of these scenarios, the lock/leverage is removed.

yes...people would be questioning it if it was another manufacturer

This is not the first time...nor the second that Badseed gear has been a point of issue

Im not out to put someone down personally...but when peoples lives are at stake, the issue needs to be addressed.

saying aerials are at fault is silly. fix the gear

quick question on the apex dp, what are the advantages/disadvantages of routing the bridle between the pins from the canopy attachment point?
apex reccomended to route out the top, i just want to make sure i have the correct info, and the reasons for it to be correct. thanks

So, this being said, although i still call bullshit, LETS DISCUSS WHAT COULD BE WRONG WITH THE RIG... insteasd of just saying this rig is fucked, fix it. and be logical, misrouted bridal? maybe the ability to tuck a bridal around a bottomless corner is a flaw? but can be chalked up to a packing error, pin tension? you s-folded your canopy uneven causing too much tension on one loop and not the other? the only RIG errors i could see, would be an excessively long tuck flap that just buries itself too deep and causes too much pressure, but being i own this container, and i know he uses patterns for all the elements of building, i would say this is a non issue? perhaps the bridal was mismeasured making this a bridal problem not a container problem, there is so many gray areas its fucking rediculous, so unless you have some logical input, or questions, stfu. kindly.

ill disect my rig and post all the pictures i can, if someone can point out what they believe to be a possible flaw, my container when completely opened up is 100% flat. my side flaps are riser covers all the way to bottomless corners, my bottom flap is bottomless corner to bottomless corner, and the top flap is like any, very similar to the helium top flap... im at a loss for possibilties i guess?

maybe the grommets are magnets. Has anyone checked? Has to be it.

Just wanted to throw it out there to any Menace owners falling into the badseed bashing going on after this incident. If you would like to unload your "defected" rig and in the 5-8 160lb range i would be happy to take it off your hands.

Yes. Let them continue to self cleanse the gene pool. People who put no thought or no patience ahead of their own life will thin the crowd out. Then, the only ones who will get hurt are the ones who do everything right and still get hurt just because that's how it goes....

It's not the bridge. It's the fool that jumps from the bridge. It's as safe as you make it. If you want to be as safe as possible, don't jump.

If possible, can someone please post pictures of "the rig in question's" pin protection flap both stowed in its pocket as well as outside it's pocket? I cant seem to find a photo of the pin protector flap outside of it's pocket. I would like to validate some hear-say, and am curious to the contour of the flap.

Edit: From the website of the manufacturer, this photo:
http://badseedbase.com/.../2012/11/TopFlap.jpg
looks very different from this photo:
http://badseedbase.com/...s/2012/11/TyeDye.jpg

i believe the only real difference in the two rigs youve posted, being i jump with the person who has the purple one, is the purple one is an earlier model which didnt have a stiffiner in the tuck tab itself, it was just codura and tucked. this came untucked during some terminal wingsuit jumps, then was adjusted accordingly, ill take and post a pic of my rig tucked and untucked my rig was built 2 years ago. and has a few different design improvements (tuck tab, magnet riser, magnet bridal, bottomless corners) and i sure some others

I have no comment on whether I think the incident was gear related or not. Just showing a pic of a different Badseed container.

My Badseed container tuck flap was different than the one in your picture. Mine was made about a year ago. I sold the rig and don't have any other pics. Can't see everything but the tuck flap corners were almost 90 degrees which is different than your container.

i can see your point, however they are still relatively close. however on a picture of his new personal rig, the tucks look completely different, that being said, im not sure which version of the rig was on this load, but from pictures i think i like the design of my tuck tab the best as i think the 45 degree wedge into the tuck would be more likely to let the bridal slide and pop it out, then a harsher 90 degree tuck, and the newer tuck looks even more 90 degree... just some thoughts, ill post a pic of the newer tuck tabs after i get a minute...

Are your pins actually sewn on opposite? (one frown one smile)

Is there any possibility of the bottom pin getting under both the pin flap and the pocket and thereby preventing it from rotating up on edge? In other words, if you turn it to the right (smile) and see if it can get under the pocket before it's out of the closing loop. Also can you try closing the flap and trap the bridle in it instead of coming out of the bottom? What happens when you pull it? My theory is that the distance from grommet to pocket is too short...

Do I know you?

You sound a swell dude...full of knowledge and experience

Or maybe just someone who hangs out in brandons loft
and gets him coffee and a reach around when he asks

Im sure your superior knowledge of equipment could better be put
to use fixing the crap gear that keeps coming out of vegas

I noticed that too. I think that bottom pin direction could cause a problem. The arch to the left is not good! It makes it harder for the pin to rotate given the direction the flap "wants" to rotate the pin. I can seriously see that a pin facing that direction with the combination of the newer more 90 degree flap bottom causing a lock.

What the hell was the rationale for the newer 90 degree flap design? Seems like a dumb idea. And a flap that tucks in the right should never have a pin that has the inside arc facing left!!!

Umm just saw this in classifieds. This bad seed has a ridiculously square cut flap design. I was leaning toward the opinion that this was a freak incident that could happen on any rig (note all the Apex DP's this was Sim'd on. ). But looking at this pic...a lock on a rig like this (on a head high deployment) seems inevitable! SEE ATTACHED

 

Hi all, I've been following this thread closely, cause I do own a Badseed rig and I do jump it quiet often. So yeh I'm gunna put my two cents in and it may be a bit bias but i don't give a fuck, I think we are missing a few important factors here.

1) When i started jumping I was happy doing a flat, stable, belly to earth exit and preforming drills for the wot ifs...
Not trying to be the coolest cat throwing out gainers off a lowish object at sub 25 jumps. But hey i had a mentor. Did the jumper in question have a mentor? I really don't know.

2) I believe their was ground footage taken of this particular jump which is being held back for some unknown reason. I do ask why?

3) The beauty about BASE is it's non regulation in which unfortunately the gear has become about through trial and error thus their have been a lot of pioneers that have given their life's for this wonderful sport over the years. Who's to say that every rig being made today is total fool proof, that it will save your life every time you throw yourself off an object? I didn't get one of those magic wands with mine that packs itself perfectly everytime.

4) I do feel that the jumper in question put all the blame on the manufacturer straight up. No investigation, no input from experienced jumpers. Just flat out blamed the gear in the interview. Its not like he has a tone of jumps and packed an on heading opening for the last 400 jumps. So who fucking knows what he did? Sorry buddy but your an A class Douchbag. You at least take some onus on yourself.

That's it for my rant for now. Can't let it all loose in one go, gotta keep some amo cause I'll be expecting some heated feed back.

On the other hand I may be totally wrong and it was a gear Mal but we won't know until it has thoroughly been investigated, which i might add doesn't happen overnight.
It just hurts me to see fingers being pointed so quickly with no facts and no real evidence...

Start hating when we have factual info.

I'm not making an opinion either way, but just wanted to share some info. I have two Bad Seed rigs. The first was manufactured around Oct of 2012 and has the "Old" pin flap design. The second was manufactured around Feb 2013 and has a new design. Pics of the new design below:

http://imgur.com/a/GZfQK

Whenever someone is hurt, there is a great tendency on the part of jumpers (both the injured person and others) to want to pin down a single cause for the accident.

Being able to point a finger of blame at one single person/thing makes us feel safer, because we can say "well, if I don't do that, I'll be fine, right?"

There are lots of factors in any accident. Human performance, conditions, judgement decisions (which I personally think is the biggest factor), and gear are all possible factors.

It's rare that just one of these things is the sole cause of an accident, no matter how badly we all want to believe that we've identified a single sole cause.

Take a look at the design on the Summit/TL by apex and the Snekor by S-Fly. Same thing.

Use the gear accordingly, these rigs are not designed to be opened head high in the sit position at slow airspeed. If you are doing a slider down gainer open the flap. Several people have pointed on the PC hesitation in the video and as you all should know the point of having a long bridle on base-gear is to provide proper snatch force to pop the pins. Seems to me the reason for this whole incident is hesitation causing the PC to not generate the proper amount of snatch force and by the time there is a substantial drag in the PC it is too late at this height. The bridle seems angled in a way that puts the drag force on the flap instead of the pin. I bet this could happen to several different rigs by other manufacturers given the exact same circumstances. Had he pitched at a higher speed with the same scenario happening I bet it would have opened.

Thoughts?

This is the most accurate post of this thread, period!!!

I really like the Summit's "reverse tuck flap pocket" where you can tuck the entire pin cover flap backward and out of the way. It's a really good idea and makes a lot of sense for slider down jumping.

sub terminal air speed, pc hesitation, non-optimal body position coupled with a thousand unrepeatable variables are a viable explanation for the incident. dont forget that BASE is an extreme environment where the effect of a few undesirable elements are seen extremely quickly. seems like the perfect storm of shitty luck was responsible over the design of gear.

I never though about doing that on my new Bad Seed rig. I will definitely start doing that.

I'm not jumping bad seed that's all I got to say this has happened twice and the person who did the pin check is the exact person this happened to before!! Need I say more r watch anymore video!
And on another note this jumper is a great person and happy he is still alive. Oh yeah Matt your a asshole lol thx for defending my friend

Ohh I forgot to let everyone know this jumper normally jumps a Apex DP and has never had a problem! The rig in question was a demo given to him that day by Brandon!

im not going to waste a bunch of time on a dead dog, BUT nobody was "picking on" your friend, for him to need be defended, all i asked from this post was a design error to be in question, not just, "fuck brandon cocksucker!" and from what i gathered from this thread so far, is that it has been replicated on more than one manufacturer, and as far as brandon goes, he is good people, he was there when i hooked in, and guess what, i didnt blame him, fuck he PCA'd me, point is, you know who is responsible for you... YOU, i check and prime my pins and open my flap and all this bullshit before i put my rig on, only double check i ask for is when going over a rail etc. to make sure nothing has popped open... i jumped a 180' A before i was ready for it, i paid the price for it as well... crawl before you walk fuckers... i hope to meet most of you at some point, and am not here to make enemies, but some of you guys rather talk shit or "sky god" up the base world... weve all been in shit, some of us got it worse is all. have fun, be safe-ish, dont go in, fuck you!

Dusty, I've banned you from the incidents forum for 14 days and removed your last two posts.

Please try to keep this discussion civil.

Thanks.

Im here to make enemies!!!!

25-30 jumps is not exactly a huge data pool to draw from.

You misspelled "enemas."

Totally agree. Sadly there aren´t alot op people around who want to mentor newer jumpers. At least not where I´m from.

Then again... Maybe you should take a bit of time think of the magnitude of your request (to quote Dwain) and you would understand why there are not that many people willing to do it. And you would understand that it actually is sad at all.

"And you would understand that it actually is not sad at all."

There, fixed it for you.


44

Brandon is good peeps! And so are the Apex crew. NONE of these guys/gals wants to make bad gear, and Brandon and the APEX crew make quality stuff...in general, but have now been informed of a fixable FLAW in their gear.

Marty/Asylum make the nicest gear around, but they have had problems at times too, and have fixed the known/fixable ones!

However the evolution of the Bad Seed pin flap (not the version you have) is SHIT, and so is the APEX Summit's pin flap (and based on test in this thread...the APEX DP is a bit flawed too). The Menace/Summit pin flap IS a BAD design for low jumps where head high orientation is to be expected.

The Summit and Menace need to have the bottom of the flap tapered significantly, and APEX should take a closer look at the pin lock issue on the DP...while they are at it.

I would buy from APEX or BAD SEED, but I would not accept a flat bottomed pin flap from anyone on a rig I was not solely using for terminal (and who in the US is solely doing terminal?).

It's hard to take Asylum fanboys seriously.

Btw, i just had to redo a legpad to legstrap attachment on one of the bove mentioned manufacturer rigs, as it was sewn in incorrectly resulting in 2inches of shortage one one side.

No one makes the nicest gear, speaking objectively. But some sure do have kickass embroydery, which has zero effect on function.

Not an asylum fanboy. They have made mistakes too is what I was trying to say. I just don't know of any current asylum issues.

Older mistakes include the use of heavy/waxy ZP on PC's and too weak lines on the feather.

Personally I jump a Gargoyle. My first rig was a Perigee pro but I never really liked it. I do LOVE asylum Toxic PC's.

sorry for digging up this old thread again, i just wanted to add this video where i tried to reproduce pin locks / high pull forces due to bad pull angles on different rigs:

https://vimeo.com/76213539

(here a little more info: http://www.watchthybridle.com/2013/10/pinlocks/)

take care!

Super informative post! Thanks!

Hey boys, Makes that Velcro Rigs with the old and proven Shrivel Flap looking sweeter & Sweeter every day ???
,

Great. Could you go into more detail on which containers had which vulnerabilities? Or at least just the TLs.

If you're worried about your own rig just try it. When I first read about this issue I tried it with mine and was able to reproduce it on the first try. Personally I think it pretty much can be done with any pin rig.

I have been trying to duplicate the pin lock on my Vertigo Warlock. So far it has been a reassuring experiment. There was slightly increased pull force in some of the positions depicted in the video. However the pin still popped with far less than any amount of force a 42" PC would generate after a few seconds of airspeed. Unfortunately, I don't have a spring scale at the moment to measure it exactly.

I tried like hell to entrap the pin underneath the bridle at various angles and orientations. One time I got it trapped enough to lift the weight of the rig off the ground, but it didn't hold very long. And I was cheating by holding the pin a little with my finger. So that could have become a pin hesitation in real life if I had been sloppy with my pins & bridle routing.

My equipment is 9 years old and the fabric of the pin flap is very supple. I wonder if newer equipment with stiffer fabric would behave differently. My closing loops are set properly, i.e. not over-tight, just enough tension to keep the pins in place.

I'm not saying it can't happen on my rig. Murphy is out there. But I don't know how to rig my pins and bridle any more safely than I do currently. I usually open my pin flap on short delays, and keep it closed for other jumps. I don't do flippy-dos either.

Does anyone have a spring scale, and could post some numbers on pull force in various orientations?

If this seems like a problem on someone's rig, maybe one fix is, the bottom end of the tuck flap could be trimmed, giving the bridle a little more freedom to pivot the pin...?

as ive written in the article, some of those shown in the video would just require more force to be open in the certain angle, but still enough to cause a hesitation if you do a go'n'throw while being head high. a 42" after 2 seconds would have enough force to open most of those set ups, and for the other scenarios have enough force to change your angle until the lock released i suppose.

to put this in relation, i just measured the pull force on one of the tighter rigs at less than 0.5kg with the flap open, pulling 90° angle from the container (flat'n'stable) and 6kg with the flap closed and pulled at bad angle. (i suppose more with a bit more playing around again) but this was one of the better performing rigs.


i found that with some it gets easier if pin tension is very loose, since then the pin can move further away from the grommet.
and i also found that with some containers of the very same type with the same size (and type) of canopy in it worked better while with their "brothers" it worked worse.
and for some containers it took me quite some time to find the right spot...


will for sure make a bit of a difference, i found that especially for the tuck-in style ones there was a big difference at some angles between old ones and newer ones that had more stiffener material in there.


i didnt want to put up numbers for every rig since it was not my intention to compare rigs, but to get people playing around with theirs.

but to give you an idea, some rigs had very very low pin tension, and all of them would have been perfectly fine for slider down jumping. so with flap open pull forces would be <0.5kg, while i was able with all of those rigs to at least get 6kg out (with some i played quite a lot until i was able to lift them up). with some >25kg.


would be possible, but i suppose its easier to just open the flap. on terminal jumps when the flap is closed its more likely that you are belly to earth when you pull and PC forces, especially the snatch force is way higher.

This video makes it seem like the only safe way to pull is headdown

Or eliminate all that shit and just open the pin cover

I tried to reproduce the same thing, but my Velcro rig opened EVERY TIME! Great video!

The pin cover was open in several of the video clips.

 You're right, but only on gargoyle's and a TLs, and only while directly on their sides.

-
HEeeHHhhehehaha..LOL .. .. good one .
.

Excellent video. I could be wrong but I didn't see a single perigee pro in there. Id love to see something like this done with all major manufacturers rigs, and the appropriate information displayed onscreen as well..
Many thanks to watchthybridle.

Very last rig was a Ppro

Thx, rewatching. Really wish there was more commentary xplaiinng the configuration that initiates the locks instead of the music

Same here, I would like a "heres exactly how to kill yourself on a DP/PPro/Gargoyle/Zak/TLS/Menace/Talus" etc, so you know exactly what NOT to do....not dying is good.

I have an old video I had of a hesitation with a PIN FLAP OPEN (DP/Warlock style flap) on a rig I converted from a velcro rig a while back (260' go and throw) that had nothing to do with the pin flap, but purely the orientation of the pins (they were oriented with tips up, inside of the curve to the right side of the container) which in a very head high body position can cause the pin to cam instead of rotate. The force of the PC rolled me onto my side/back into a position in which they would clear. Ill link here when its uploaded.

Yes, please do!

I was considering taking video of a bunch of rigs at bridge day that can be locked up, and make a video.

Yes please.

i will try to put something together with a little more explanation, but it will take some time. .. ill post it here once finished...

So if these are all black death why are we all not going in. I have opened head low in a sit etc. Would be nice to find out how they got pretty much EVERY manu to lock up.

please re-read the article, "black death" is never used there, nor implied anything close to it. the whole thing is more or less a reaction to this potato incident earlier this year where people were saying it was manufacturers fault, so i wanted to show that similar is possible with most rigs and that it burns down to "know your shit".

again, no black death here... but i know several people that had major hesitations that were caused by some container lock issue. and like with the potato incident, most accidents are the result of a series of things going wrong.

-
Everybody is not Going-In with Pin Closed BASE Rigs because it is just another small 'Mechanical' gamble that you added to the list.
But I have always felt like, What can possibly happen, Will eventually happen . Single-Pin & Double-Pin closed container systems add 'small' extra risk of ( Possibilities ) to the Lottery List of free goodies randomly won . Pin closing systems add Pin-Lock/Hesitation and Bridal Misroute to the other mechanical gambles you risk like, PC hesitation, Canopy inflation hesitation, Opening shock Break-line breakage, Stuck Slider, Suspension line static knot, Broken suspension line, Line-over, Hard PC pull/no Pull, Line Twists, 180 off heading, etc.
So looking at the bigger picture, Does it really Matter all that much ?. If you can duplicate Pin opening hesitation or Pin Lock in your Pin BASE Rig ?
.

I think likely with a lot of these rigs they had to have the pins oriented incorrectly, like the gargoyle ones, I don't think there is any way you could get the head of the pin under the pocket by pulling on the bridle alone. You would have to manually stick the head under the flap, then pull on the bridle. And likely none of these would stay static for long, in all of the video's they are pulling in only 1 orientation, not saying it couldn't cause a hesitation, but unlikely it would cause a true container lock. The force of the PC would likely reorient you into a position where the pin can now be pulled. Looking at the PPro/Adrenalin/DP's for example. They are pulling the bridle straight up the rig, this has you sit flying/slightly on your back in freefall. The force of that PC is going to rotate you into a flat belly to earth position where the pin would clear. (And coming from someone that has experienced this first person, trust me, it will rotate you, on a go and throw with a 46" PC it felt like taking a 10' fall onto static rope tied to my lower back, it flipped me to my side and cleared almost immediately and rather violently) I am almost certain if they had pulled the bridle even a few degrees back towards "normal" the pin would clear and the rig would open.

Another thought on the Gargoyle (with its stiff closing flap) is that a pin lock is much easier to replicate with the pin flap OPEN/UNDONE versus closed. The DP and other rigs that have soft closing flaps are not "helped" by having the pin cover flap closed.

"All rigs in the video were packed with rather low pin tension, pin orientation and bridle routing as shown in the manufacturers manual. Some literally lock, some just require higher force to open, some are more likely to happen, some less. All of them severe enough to be able to lift the rig on the bridle and enough to at least cause a delay/hesitation in a slider down environment."

and yes, also the gargoyles aswell as all other rigs were set up with the pins in the right orientation. and yes, it is possible to achive this only by pulling on the bridle, although it takes a few tries, and does not work with all gargoyles (my old one (2003) only needs a bit more force to open while newer ones that have way more stiffeners in there can lock. also it worked better with some rigs than others...


"until pull direction is changed again"

exactly, none of them stays when the angle of pull is changed! all that is stated in the info for the video.

That's an interesting point about the gargoyle flap being closed/vs open, I wonder if the effect is the same with the TLS that has the pin flap rolled back under itself in the video. That roll is really thick and appears to be blocking the pin from being able to slide fully out. I wonder if this would be different with the flap closed, or at least just open, not rolled into the pocket.

first, this was kind of a reaction to people attacking badseed, so i wanted to show that this can be done with a lot of differenc containers. (i have no affilitation to badseed, but it gerenally pissed me off that a rigger is attacked for something like that)

second, its just another piece of the big picture, but saying that the huge amount of variables that one cannot control justifies not giving a shit about the ones that can be controlled is just wrong. to be able to control a variable you have to know about it.

third, i want to put this out there so that people see and maybe try themselves, and learn something from it. (i personally learned a lot during the making of that video) and if maybe some of the jumpers with a tuck-under-flap style rig now think about opening the flap for low jumps to reduce the likeliness of a hesitation im also fine with that.

Assuming you have enough altitude.

: " second, its just another piece of the big picture, but saying that the huge amount of variables that one cannot control justifies not giving a shit about the ones that can be controlled is just wrong. to be able to control a variable you have to know about it ".
-

I never said ' I ' did not give a shit . on the contrary I actually Do and am in belief and practice ' Less is More ' attitude on variables with also understanding them .

But, even if you understand them . To believe you can completely be in control of all variables is wishful thinking . There is Only One Way to control an Undesirable Variables . And that is to completely remove it .
.
.

Would it eliminate pin locks if we replace the pins with a 1" - 2" nylon cable?

Haha probably!!

Thats why we used them in 80´s and 90´s

This is the second time I've posted to ask about it, but the idea doesn't seem to get much response.

Why did you quit using them?

I moved on to velcro in 93. Thanx to Annie H

4" flex pin, 12´bridle, 54" PC. 1989

https://www.facebook.com/...p;type=3&theater

Can't view it...

Are there any expert riggers out there who want to make comment about why it is (or it isn't) a good idea to go full circle and...


I think it's a great idea.

Lack of rigging competency, Many jumpers have only a vague understanding of rigging their gear. Some arent using the SDLRMod because they are afraid of miss rigging their steering lines. The plastic coated cable is easily grooved when pulling out the pull up cord, also the end can expose some of the metal cable that will get bent in a hook shape during insertion and catch on the way out. None of this is a problem if one knows thy gear.
Take care,
space

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Fuck if I know ? , IF I knew that I would be the proprietor of this whore house and you would all be my BASE bitches .
But that type closing system has been pretty reliable considering that for a double-Pin close system you got 2 curved metal Pin sewn to a bridal that is poked threw 2 loops of strings and Snaked threw 4 flaps and 6 grommets .

Another reason for nylon cable would be to avoid a pin through bridal mal. I haven't seen or heard of it happening in a base environment yet but have seen a couple pictures in a skydiving environment, the thought scares me shitless.

Another thought is that because if the short length to replace pins it might not be as flexible and end up adding complexity for no reduced risk.

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Or just eliminate the undesirable variable . Abandon the the search to replace Pins in a closing system, for a more simplistic closing system . Eliminate Pins, Grommets, closing loops and cover Flap . Eliminate complexity because ' Less is More ' .
.

+1 I'll be buying a velcro rig soon.

Pretty stoked I've hung onto mine.

Thanks Pete.

What if there was a little pocket for your pin to slide into that holds it in place until deployment? I know it's just adding more to the equation but...just wondering

Hopefully you can make sense of my drawing here...

Yah.... Remember the whole reason the pin is curved?

What you propose is akin to having a car with steering wheels locked yo only go in a straight line. ..

100% of my jumps are sub-terminal go and throws, S/L, or PCA, I have no need for the cool look or security of a pin rig. I know my Velcro will open...

I've gone from curved pins to cables on some systems. I can tell you that it's not an end all solution. I'm not saying that it can't be done but what you are doing is trading one set of problems for another. Trying to make a cable work well is no easier then trying to make a curved pin work.

Here's a few thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.

When you get right down to it the two are basically the same. The bottom line is that nothing wants to pull through a loop at an angle. It wants to be a straight pull. What you're really doing is trying to redirect a force from what could be any angle into a horizontal force pulling through the loop. With a pin once it rotates up you are pulling offset to the side against the three points of contact to produce a rotation around a point in space at the center of the arc of the pin to redirect the force horizontally through the loop. It's really surprising how well it's worked over the years. Maybe I can do a force diagram for you.

A cable basically has to do the same thing. The problem is that it's not necessarily well suited for this. It's strength is it's weakness. You avoid the need for the pin to rotate up because it bends to form it's own "arc". But it's still dependent on that same curvature to transition the force. The pin creates it's own radius but you're not necessarily pulling from all the way around the side to get the best... conversion of the force. The pin depends on it's flexibility to create that radius. So it's dependent on the forces from the three points of contact and the bridle to form that curve working against the stiffness of the cable. Then that curve hast to roll along the length of this cable. The cable has to be some what stiff so it takes a certain amount of work to do this with all the friction involved. And it has to do this at any angle.

A lot of variables. If the cable is too soft or the loop tension is too high you are trying to roll a very sharp curve along the length of the cable. You can be trying to pull it around a very tight corner. The cable can "kink" in the grommet. So you are basically trying to pull it through a very sharp bend. If it's too stiff when the cable is deeply set you don't have a lot of leverage to bend it, especially from some angles. Yellow cable is often not used or it's used double because it's on the soft side. The black cable is often used for ripcords where the pull is known to be straight. Heavy clear cable has been used a lot but strong has a pretty good sized drogue to pull it out. And it's rough on the cable. They get beaten up and are basically a replaceable item. I've used steel 1*19 cable but I had to use a ring that could float up and help redirect the angle of the pull. Two 45's rather then a 90.

There can actually be a lot of variation in the tension of the loops on a pin rig. Depending on how it's built and the harness you can put a lot of tension on the loops when you bend your body or tighten the rig down around it. I think it's a little too dependent on packing on some designs.

I've been thinking more about the design of the pin. I think we could improve it. There's some trade off in how tall the pin would be once it was rotated which is an issue with really tight flaps. But I think we can improve the leverage that we have to turn it up on end. I'll try to draw something.

I really enjoyed the video. It gave me a lot of food for thought about how we are building our flaps and containers. It was one of the most interesting things I've seem in a long time.

Lee

Ok, damn I hate trying to do this shit. Let's see if it worked.

So if I remember...

1. Pin as it should operate. Note, the bridle will actually be pulling vertically upwards away from the flaps. The dotted line through the shaft shows the axis of rotation and how the bridle in on the proper side of it. The other doted line shows the actual heng point and the force you must over come to stretch the loop to rotate the pin.

2. Shows improper orientation. Note the bridle is on the opposite side of the shaft and will try to rotate the pin downwards point first into the flap locking it. That's how I bent those pins I posted.

3. shows the pin once rotated. Note the center point of the arc. This will be the point of rotation. The angle shows the offset necessary to create the rotation to withdraw the pin.

4. Shows the pin I propose with the eye offset inside the arc. This is the proper orientation. Not that you have a greater leverage from the line through the shaft to rotate the pin upwards. Also note that there is less distance to the heng line. You can rotate it with less force in a tighter loop.

5. I loss track of the numbers. My bad.

6. This is improper orientation. This is worst case and it is still on the proper side of the line through the shaft. Not by a lot but it doesn't take much the key is that it's not trying to jam the pin. The off set can be increased even more but the pin becomes tall when on edge. As the pin turn the bridle wants to slip off of that part of the ring because of it's angle to the shaft. Moving it back into proper orientation unlike 2.

7. New pin shown on edge note the taper to prevent the pin from seating too deeply.

8. Two pins side by side. Note that the new pin is slightly taller. This is actually a disadvantage with a very tight flap as it makes it harder to rotate the pin onto edge. But there is also more leverage available.

It's some thing I've been thinking about. I hope it make at least some since. Some of it is kind of subtle. I'm not saying that something like this could solve all of the problems, but I do think it could help with some. Is any of this really a problem? Go back and look at my bent ass pins. When a pin jams and breaks a thousand pound loop, I think it's an issue.

Lee

you guys have some great ideas, just wondering the benefits/downfalls of a really short pin? still curved like the current pin but 1/4-1/2" shorter overall length. i understand it will be less secure when the container gets moved around. just throwing ideas out there

 

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The evolution of Velcro shrivel flap single chute container system to a more complex system with Pins, grommets, closing loops & pin cover may not always the better choice for all jumpers or used on all objects jumps . Pins container system definitely has it's place for some jumpers .
It's Definitely not as mechanically clean & reliable as Velcro but Double-Pin single chute container system is pretty reliable & mechanically predictable system, till you throw-in the human factor of the jumper who uses it .
It Is SO Much harder for the jumper to influence the Velcro system in a negative way . The jumper can toss the Pilot Chute head down, On there back, standing-up vertically, tossing it between there legs and Velcro container system always wants to do it's part in opening for deployment to save your life .
.

First let me be perfectly clear that that was just doodling. I did not dimension it. That drawing came straight out of my ass. I did not measure one of my existing pins I didn't even pull one out for reference. I was merely trying to convey the basic idea of the placement of the eye relative to the arc of the shaft. So don't take it as a scale drawing.

Now to try to answer your question about the radious of the arc of the shaft. First go back and look at... I think it's 3. Then look at the force diagram here. And give me a break cause it was a pain in the ass. I didn't have any good way to draw or up load it. So what we are really doing is pulling upwards, F, with the bridle on the pin. We are trying to exert force, f, on the pin horizontally to extract it. The curve makes it rotate around the center of the curve. Let's see if we can work through this.

theta is the angle of the force, F, with the radius where F intersects the arc.

f, is the product of the force, F, with radius. So f=F*sin(theta). Note that the force f is highest when you pull tangent to the arc. Also the force drops to zero when you pull through the center of curvature. So there will always be an angle at which it will not want to slide out of the loop. If the angle is negative, at an angle past the center of curvature then you are actually pressing the pin deeper into the loop, but this is unstable and it is assumed that the pin will swing around into a more stable angle and extract.

Let's look at the case where the pull is 90 deg to the flap. and lets look at what happens as the radius increases and theta becomes shallow.

d, is the depth that the pin is set. It's the distance from the loop to the intersection of the force F with the arc.

At 90 deg with F parallel to the radius to the loop we can express sin(theta) in terms of d and r. sin(theta)=d/r

So f, the force actually extracting the pin can be expressed as f=F*d/r. This is pulling straight out at 90 deg.

It all comes down to what angle you are pulling at relative to the center of curvature. Looking at the case of pulling straight out the force extracting the pin decreases as you increase the radius of curvature. It also becomes harder to pull the deeper you set the pin. Take it to the extreme. The greater the radius the more it become a straight pin. The trade off is that the longer the pin is and the more curved it has the taller the pin is when on edge. And if you can't lift it on edge it can't roll out.

Is that confusing enough?

Lee

 

Just turn the pin cover flap into a shrivel flap. Problem solved. You're welcome.

Call it a pin-cro rig.

Don't laugh. I've actually been thinking about variations of that idea.

Lee

Same here actually. Although I do really like the BaseR cover flap connected to the bridle and tucked in on the sides.

i was actually more focussed on the rig design than on the pin design, discarding the locks/problems that arise because of the pin design itself as given. well thanks, that made me think...

after quite a few people asked about more detailed information on the rigs in the video, i put something together http://www.watchthybridle.com/...pin-locks-in-detail/.

Very interesting, informative read. Much appreciation for taking the time to put that together

Thank you for you work on this.

Question on the DP: You wrote this under the "tuck under, pin cannot rotate" section:

"Additional info: Take care with the pin orientation, if the wrong bridle is used or bottom pin is put in wrong way round (still vertical eye pointing down, tip pointing right) the same lock described in the point above (Zak 2, Hybrid, Ld+, Vertex) can be produced but here the tip gets in contact with the pin protector at the bottom end."

On the DP I usually set the pins up as shown in my crude drawing here. To me, your statement reads in a way that leads me to believe I'm setting them up exactly as you described not to. Can you please confirm/deny this?

I've looked at the owners manual, but there's not much clarity there (that I found):

"Pass the pull up cord through the top right side flap grommet, and pull taut. Then pass the pull up cord
through the top left side flap grommet, and pull taut. Place the first curved pin through the top closing loop. Drawing 6.6-5."

The drawing leaves something to be desired, for sure.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I'm just a guy trying to take advantage of all available resources to make sure I'm doing this right.

Thanks!

Were these tests all performed with the pins fully seated? Would be interesting to see if any of the mals were reproduced with primed pins. apologies if stated and I overlooked

I believe you are correct.
The bottom pin is what he describes as "bad".

But also having the pins set like that gives you maximum distance between the eyes of the pins, thus the least amount of slack of the bridle in between.
As far as I know, the slack is your friend.

If you insert both pins from right to left and make happy or sad face and gently fold the excess bridle before closing the flap you should have a better setup.

Good to know. Thanks!

Have a look at the Morpheus Genesis. The tuck flaps around the shrivel flap are fascinating, and may help bring pin rigs "up to par" for high airspeed jumps. I'd love to see some testing done with one on wingsuit flights (any volunteers?).

Sure

I like the genesis tuck tabs, I made a guy a slap-in-the-face offer and he asked for less so I got a PerigeeII & 280 ACE with 10 Jumps on the rig for R5000 ($515)!

I'm the proud new owner of a velcro rig

Forgive me if this is the sdupitest idea ever but: what about a magnetic rig instead of velcro? Or even maybe just a magnetic pin cover flap, as that might "snap" open rather than get bunched/folder up?

Be sure some one would find a way to pin lock that as well.
Just ask yourself the question before you jump "how lucky do I feel today."

I'd be worried about exiting a metal object with my magnet flap pressed back against the metal. I've seen a magnet bridle stick to a steel handrail and extract the pins at exit before.

Not saying it wouldn't work--but I'd definitely want to do some good testing in a safer environment first.

I believe if you had a magnet in the inner most closing flap, and the rig was held closed by a ferromagnetic metal strip in the outter closing flaps, then getting stuck to the object wouldn't matter, as when you stepped away, the ferrous metal would go with the magnet (the rig) and not stay with the object. But I dunno. Real world vs Internet Talk for sure.

I think you could have two fairly strong magnets.
If you have a "pincover" that is thick (some padding) it will create enough distance between the object and magnet.
It might attract to the object, but not stick.

But I wouldn't want one as a terminal rig

Don't Vector and Advance already use magnets in riser covers and pin flaps? It is still trading "the devil that you know for the devil you don't".

Magnets are evil IMO. They will attract metal and get dirty with steel dust, Destroy magnetic tape cards such as Credit cards Hotel room keycards. I've worked with 4 KiloGuauss (kG) magnets. they were impressively strong and evil. Goggles and gloves when working more than 1 magnet.
I measured fridge magnets at around 860 G. Not very strong. Care has to be taken in the transport say like climbing an "A" and getting geared up. It (the magnets) is a dynamic object for the checklist adding to the complexity of the list. It requires constant attention in my opinion and that nixes it for me.
Take care,
space

I don't know. I think they could offer some interesting possibilities in term of riser covers and flaps. What I can tell you is that they are impossible, totally fucking impossible, to sew with. Some one needs to build an aluminum sewing machine.

Lee

You could use tucktabs or Velcro.
Joking I think.
Take care,
space

Skydivers probably don't press their back up against a metal piece at exit nearly as often as BASE jumpers do, though.

Bottom line; flaps are passive and magnets are active!

I don't think magnets strong enough to keep a container closed would have to be strong enough to wipe magnetic media, but I'm not sure. There are wallets with magnetics clasps that are fine. It takes a decent sized magnet to wipe a card.

4kG is a stupid large magnet. You're talking almost MRI field strength there. By law a fridge has to be able to be opened from inside with less than 15lbs of force. More than just field strength determines force required to open, but that gives you an idea of how strong the magnet needs to be, ball park. What is the desired force required to open a velcro rig?

Steel dust would be a problem. I'm not sure how often that gets encountered in day to day life, but if it's out there it would prolly stick.

What specifically about a terminal rig makes you wary of magnets, Hellis?

I was thinking of having magnets instead of pins to close the rig.
I have no doubt it would open, but will it stay closed while tracking/ws?

Velcro is better at sheer than magnets, and velcro is by most people a big no-no at terminal. (Unless you actually take care of your gear)

Who are these "most people"? I've taken velcro to terminal more times than I can remember. It seems to work pretty well.

I once saw a Perigee (classic--no tuck tabs) taken head down out of an airplane.


The advantage of magnets over velcro is going to be in durability--not security of closure.

I guess the Norwegians......

SBK
" Velcro closed rigs are not allowed on any terminal jumps in Lyse fjord. If you have a Velcro closed rig, you can only use it on slider down jumps on Eagle´s nest."

i proposed this idea to kathy over a year ago with a working demo. most people dont want to change what they already have in place. i used 6 neodydium magnets. 3 in the pin cover flap and 3 that were in the container. it worked fine, something ive always wanted to try for a slider down rig. and as far as the magnets grabbing metal objs... this is easily solved with a piece of rubber on the outside of the pin flap magnet.

Because of the differing fluxline densities The inverse square law does not necessarily apply uni-formally across the surface of the magnet (s). In response to "this is easily solved with a piece of rubber on the outside of the pin flap magnet" , The magnet is still a magnet, but now with a piece of rubber on it. How much it will reduce the attraction to ferrous objects would have more to do with the fluxline density vs the thickness on the rubber.
But on the otherhand it could be nice to just stick your rig magnetically on an "A", like some one holding it for you to get in your older age .
Take care,
Space

Hmmm. A carry away direct bag... now there's an idea.

Lee

A yes, that reminds me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array

So unless the metal is inside the rig...

I have a Genesis very nice rig. Robert was a genius and really thought EVERYTHING out.

I like this idea. I use a double teflon cable for my skydiving rig, and have been for 15 years. Would this modded for the BASE environment, say a 1 inch cable not sort any risk of pin lock? It would be flexible enough to pull in any direction, it wont rotate downward and lock, and it wont sit inside the grommet.

The only downside I have with my skydiving rig is when a packer uses a packboy, and it can groove the cable and thus the loop sits inside the groove, but this is something thats avoidable.

Has anyone played with teflon cables instead of metal pins, and what were the out comes of testing? What would be the reasons for not using this?

Interested in thoughts...

Good for you Tom, but there was a russian jumper who got a premature deployment(PC left in pocket) and died. Velcro is NOT okay for terminal, I thought this was agreed on years ago.

Can you PM me with details on that?

I'd also be curious about how the shrivel flap was constructed. Width of Velcro, was there binding tape around the edge, was there a clean tuck flap on top, and any comments about the tightness of the rig or tensin in the flaps when the rig was tightened of he shrugged? What type of jump was it?

I think there's a lot that goes into doing a tuck flap right but I have put many many terminal jumps on my rigs.

Lee

http://www.basejumper.com/...;;page=unread#unread

A premature out of a small airplane like that doesn't count. This can and does happen on pin rigs (skydiving). And we all know that it is more likely from moving around in the plane than due to the velcro.

as per the many jumpers who had commented on the incident and knew the person and gear - the jumper had not maintained his gear, and his velcro was in piss poor shape. so no shit it opened up on a higher airspeed jump. Same thing wil happen if you closing loops are severed down to one thread.

In my opinion, there is absolutely no prob with taking a velcro rig to terminal. I do say that it takes more maintaining. I never understood why the Manus didnt offer extra schrivelflaps as standard. Crap happens because a.not taking care .b.crap happens.
But crap happens a lot more with pin rigs it seems to me. IMHO, one should have the abilities to build a rig before BASEing. Blame accidents on bad velcro? Or bad jumper knowledge? Yes, maybe it is cool to ban Velcro for terminal at Kj for typical jumpers. Because most have no clue. but.....one should get a clue. Same as one should learn to rebuild an engine before driving. There is a red light on the dashboard It is called an "idiot light" by mechanikers. this is no joke. In BASE, the idiot light costs some their life. dont blame the rig, blame the pilot.
sorry for ranting a bit.
take care,
space

Same as one should learn to rebuild an engine before driving.

Really?

Every Perigee II I've ever purchases has come standard with a second shrivel flap (intended to keep the rig operational while the first was sent in for replacement velcro). I got an extra shrivel flap with 2 of my Visions, also.

Glad I never agreed that they weren't ok. I have made many a terminal jump on a velcro rig and had no issues.... Guess I'm grandfathered in

There was a guy in SC that was messing with using cables a few years ago. Not sure what became of it... I'll see if I can find out more.

If you read down a couple of post it says his Velcro was in piss poor condition. This is no different than a pin rig in piss poor condition.

I saw a really bad pilot chute in tow incident at a DZ. The packer didn't leave enough slack just inside of the pin for it to release. We could pick the rig up by the bridle and swing it around our heads.

That said, I thing pins are great. They pull from any angle. Just don't be a dufus and know how to pack with a pin. We used to use pretty loose closing loops and plenty of slack for the pin to pull on slider down. On terminal, pins should be the way. I was very happy to see pins pop back into use in BASE.

A lot of stuff is just compounding the risk. If you are doing an aerial on a two second delay, then sure you are going to be tossing while still moving, and at a low airspeed. When I read about people getting hurt doing very low aerials I just shake my head.

Any kind of wire will have to be super stiff. If it isn't, it will get sucked into the closing grommet and kink. Pins are fine. That is why they haven't changed much in thirty years.

Any one have a link to the video of the upper pin blowing out of the loop on that wing suit jump?

And for the record I've got bent ass pins setting here on my desk that did NOT pull out till they broke the loop they were in. Pins will in fact NOT pull from any direction. All thou I have done it. I don't think going back to Velcro for terminal jumps, especially wingsut, is the answer. I just don't understand why Velcro has become so demonized. It's like the chicken with the spot on it's head. If you own a Velcro rig you're looked down upon and shuned.

I think we can improve upon our pin design and the way we are building our pin cover flaps. And for that matter I think we could do a better job on our over all pattern set design to reduice the strain in the flaps of the container when we bend or move.

Lee

http://iloveskydiving.org/...rseshoe-malfunction/

Yeah, that statement begin written by... ? The rig was in average "jumped" condition. Do you what is "piss poor" for a velcro? A good example is your padding. Piss poor velcro just won't hold and release during slightest tension. Is that really the case with rig velcro? Is there not enough tension during shrivel closing?

Just because something did not happen to you bro, don't mean it's not possible. Hell, there is a load of CRW done with sabre with full bridles, and a shit load of jumpers doing their first base right off in brento, in X2. They had no problems, so it's good that they did't listen to any of that safety crap! Because common, it worked for them, right?

Simple probability laws. If you take mass jumpers into account, than the chance for a jumper to go in using velcro is just plain higher than the one with pins. That being said, in every statistics curve there are extremes. They're also called "exceptions proving the law" sometimes. That is the jumpers who truly benefit from a velcro rig, and know exactly why they have it and for which purpose they are using it. And trust me, they don't give a flying fuck as to what is written on any forum, they chose that gear because they know exactly what to do with it. And under those conditions, it works. See why a general idea is good in this case?

i was just posting the link.
personally i think it's personal choice, like everything in this thing called base besides the sites like norway were pin rigs are required. if you don't like someone jumping a velcro rig terminal don't jump with them.

The stats are 169 pin rig fatal and 1 Velcro. For sure I take it out of context. but if I am 100% wrong the stats still confirm that you are mistaken.See my attachment foto. Is there a prob other than I didnt point my feet? Thanks to Yasu for the cam shot..
take care,
space

Swipe your card over the speaker on your cell phone and see what happens and let us know the outcome.
next....
4kG is not MRI capabil . They use electromags I think up to upto 34kG

next...Desired force. hmmmmm..... i dont know how to calc that without more info.Actual force is 1-9kg one being perfect peel and 9 on my rig is shear. The important point is the extraction velocity. I find that Bill Booths's 40mph is quitegood.

about magnets and my aversion. They suck ;-)
take care,
space
edit to say that sound of Velcro
of peeling is awesome in freefall.

Maybe a longer pin is the answer.
take care,
space

Adam was my next door neighbor.I suggested this to him.. Glad to see him push it.
take care
space

yes, look on the otherside.clueless.stay away from idiotlights. becoming A rigger before the first jump is really cool.
Take care,
space

I've worked with NMR magnets, basically vertical MRIs. I don't know the math, but I definitely wore my wallet close enough to feel a tug and not had it wiped. It's true they mark the 5G line around them, but that is way overkill.

I have done the credit over my phone experiment of which you speak every day for the past 18 months, when I started carrying my phone and my wallet in the same pocket (I do actually know it that specifically, amusingly enough). Everything has been fine.

MRIs come in a range. I believe about 5kG to about 30kg. The 5kG may be very rare. At any rate, I've rebuilt a 15 MHz permanent NMR spectrometer which is in the low kG range. It was way bigger than you could fit in a rig closing flap and it would've provided much more force than needed. I once say a 7kG magnet would hold a wrench in place with more force than a human could overcome. That's hundreds of pounds. At max, then, 20lbs of closing, given the linear scaling of force,would need only be 1kG, prolly much less.

Plus, as I linked above, there are ways to shape magnets so that the field is primarily on one side of the magnet. That would further reduce the risk of wiping media or sticking to objects.

Of course, we're both ignoring the fact that it's not magnetic field that matters, but magnetic field gradient if you're trying to determine force on an object. The wrench stuck in the homogenous zone of that 7kG magnet moved easily for an inch or two until you pushed it into the gradients. Although I think it is absolute field strength that is the concern regarding magnetic media.

Maybe it's not worth it, and maybe there is another good reason it's actually a bad idea, but I don't think those are them.

Of course it's fine - everything's chip and pin these days. When did you last have to swipe a card?

Because jumpers these days don't have a fucking clue. Most of them are just monkeys swinging from handles. Their lack of gear knowledge, or even the lack of desire to learn more about their own gear or different types of gear is kinda frightening.

I just realized that is one of the rare posts that doesn't need my tagline. I'm going to have to disclaim my disclaimer here.

+1
Agree with the windmill theory, after watching vid and stills. Bridle is at stretch already when he wraps it, hence lack of friction.
Apart from doing a thoroughly bad job of it all, he seems to have been unlucky enough to wrap the bridle round his arm before the PC bite.

I'm now happy enough with Brento that, given its particular morphology, I'd be happy to thoroughly test there. PM me if you want to go anywhere with this Tom (PS it's Edward )