Basejumper.com - archive

http://www.police.be.ch/...ertoedlichverunfallt

Welcome to the new season....

Please be careful out there and remember:
"High Ultimate" is a killer and already claimed way too many lifes.

BSBD my friend

the SBK has lost a legend of a man..

Thoughts are with the crew



Thanks for always helping me mate I will miss that this year..

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High Ultimate, Lauterbrunnnen Earth Mike 'Mercyless' Marko(W#29) December 30, 2010
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High Ultimate, Lauterbrunnen Earth Gary Harbird (W#30) January 25, 2011
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High Ultimate, Lauterbrunnen Earth Franck Agier(W#51) October 20, 2012
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High Ultimate, Lauterbrunnen Earth Norwegian(W#58) May 6, 2013
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1 a year every year since 2010 Wingsuiters ..

be safe
I hate losing friends

I second to what the the President said above. Please please all... Think about this jump. Objectively. You see people jumping it all day, short hike, land next to your car and it is like disneyland. But take it out from the context for a second. Place this jump to somewhere else. If you would need to hike 2 hours for it. Drive 2 hours to get to the bottom of the hike. Jump this jump somewhere where there is nobody watching. Would you still go? Would you still take the risk? Would you WS it? Would it still be worth the risk? This jump has already taken way too many lives, has been proven way too fatal. We cannot underline more the fact how lethal it is. Please everyone, be careful out there and think if it really is worth it.

My deepest condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.

BSBD!

Appeal to BASE jumper conscious is useless when the hike ( down ) is 10 min and hike up is only 37 stairs to the gondola building.
Best is to remove the ramp in order to prevent more posts like this
regards R

and put metal spikes where the exit spot is without the ramp

Or extend the ramp by a body length

I have been to LB the last four years in a row and have jumped a variety of exits including low ultimate and i still have very little interest in the high exit. The one time I considered it I was at the top and was hesitant to rappell down to the low, so began thinking about jumping the high. I haven't had that distinct fear of impending death on a BASE jump in a very long time. I knew that if I decided to make that jump there was a very good chance of death, whereas I don't get such a distinct feeling from the other exits I have jumped. Even though I know any BASE jump can end in death, that exit has some serious potential. Serious consideration is an absolute must. Be safe people, and RIP to the deceased

Very sad My condolences to anyone who knew him. I looked at some clips of that exit. Looks very scary.. Be careful out there

And most of all, would you still build a ramp there?

V

would you all please be so kind and stop this discussion about a ramp or no ramp at least in this thread.

we lost a friend. we had been there. we saw it. and it happened. it is sad enough.

really would appreciate your cooperation. thanks very much.

peace

Bernhard

+1

Bernhard,

my deepest condolences for your loss! I, too, know it far too well how it feels when you lose a friend. Let alone the fact that you see it in person. I hope my condolencea together with the support from your family and friends help you during these difficult times.

Still I think that the purpose of this forum is to discuss the fatal incidents and hopefully learn from them. So from that perspective i think all discussion (as long as it is done with respect to the member of the community we just lost) is good and should not be moderated. I did not know your friend but I'm sure he would have also wanted that if there is a lesson to be learn't from his fatal accident, this lesson is well discussed through. I at least would want so should my name ever appear on this forum on a similar context.

Personally I think ramp or no ramp discussion is futile. It is not the ramp that kills our friends it is the bad choices our friends make. It is ultimately each of our own choice to jump, be there ramp or no ramp. Robi also makes wingsuits that our friends die in. So should he stop selling these suits? Is it he suits which are killing people? I say NO, it is the individuals insode these suits whose choices get them killed.

Again, my deepest condolences to all friends and family of the deceased. Dark times it is.

Hallo Bernhard
It is always sad to loose a friend! And it is a horable experience to witness it first hand, I agree.
But this is exactly the forum where this (ramp, no ramp etc) should be discussed.
This forum should be used to learn from accidents and what to do to prevent them.

Just a side note:
The ramp has nothing to do with the SBA. We did not build it and the SBA doesn not own the exits. All we do is trying to make the exits as save as possible. But Robi is right. The SBA needs to evaluate what we do about the ramp. This discussion will be done during the next month or so.

There are only 2 options in my opinion:

- extend the ramp so that it is safe for a jumper to jump and that it is not possible to hit the positive part

- or stop jumping such a dangerous exit

In the beginning when the exit have been opened, I thought only: Why does someone take this risk to jump a exit (which is a against a rule ... because of the very positive part) for a few meters more freefall. It is only the valley ... none of these jumps is it worth to take a higher risk than usual.

If you open an exit point in the mountains, and you have to throw the stone more far away from the wall than in a normal case ... I would never jump it. But only my opinion.

Jump walls which have overhung or are vertical in the beginning!

But of course .. my condolences to familiy and friends. I hope we could learn of it. Then the guys who died at this Exit Point have saved our lifes.

It is not a cliff exit point, it is a hillside.

Only the Valley?!?!?! I remember when it was "The Valley" and every single jump there was considered higher risk/technical.
I am continually amazed by how far things have degenerated in so few years. Now not even under exits are given a second thought.

Don´t get me wrong. With it is only the valley ...I mean: For me as a jumper who is living at the swiss and austrian border is the valley nothing special. it is beautiful of course but the jumps are not as nice as the other in Switzerland. Lauterbrunnen is for BASE tourists. And yes I call it death valley or the freak show. every idiot who can successfully open a parachute is freaking out there and makes scary stuff sometimes.

But that has nothing to do with this incident. I mean only there are much more beautiful exits with lower risk. you do not have to risk all for these exits with a flat valley ground.

My bad. I wasn't really directing that at you.


Sadly this is pretty much the truth of "The Valley" and BASE in general anymore.

Who built the ramp? Has anyone discussed it with them?

With respect and condolences to the family and friends of the deceased, Maretus spells it out as it should be.
We make the choice to BASE jump and anyone doing this knows the potential consequences,including grieving for our friends.
There have been five BASE fatalities already this year and they are all Wingsuit incidents, this will not stop me from jumping my WS this season, but as someone who assesses his personal skills as intermediate it will be the choices I make that will determine whether or not I survive in this sport.
I walk away from exits that require quick starts that I realise I don't have the skills to nail 100% of the time. Positive walls seem like a bad idea to me in general.
As the boundaries continue to be pushed it's inevitable that there are people that will push their own personal boundaries in a sport that is totally unforgiving of mistakes.
Making the best choices involves honest assessment of your own abilities, and also recognising what is and isn't a safe site.
If I make a bad choice and go in, I hope that it is discussed and lessons are learned, don't sugar coat it, call it as you see it,...
I can't see myself wanting to WS the High Ultimate, given it's history,
Condolences, B.

Condolences to wife and daughter!! Of course even from this notorious exit there is still always a possibility for any random accident! Blaming just the exit can also be wrong (in general). I wasn´t there or around so can´t say anything about this accident except he was very skilled ws jumper and far from beginner or anything like that!!!
BUT for statistic reason: soon it will be one year since our friend Markus W left us. Since that there has now been 21 basejumping fatalities during 1 year period -> 18 of them is wingsuit fatalities !!!!!! DO the math
Stay safe and calculate Your own risks
-Rami-

Just for information, was the ramp there on this particular jump ?

As per my understanding this jump was done from the ramp and the ramp is still there.

While ramp/ no ramp may be relevant, there is also the element of learning from what happened on this jump.

This thread states nothing as to how the execution of this jump resulted in a fatality. perhaps it was a no pull situation, or power line hang up resulting in electric shock death. Or line twists plus off heading plus wall strike. Maybe the ramp had nothing to do with it.

Regardless of the ramp or no ramp. There is a curiosity that occurs particularly when experienced jumpers die. In due time, when those that were witness to this feel comfortable sharing, that factual information will be appreciated by many who read this thread.

Until then, the community sends condolences and respect through patience.

According to 3rd eye information, it was a headdown exit with a Wingsuitwith resulting to freefall impact and nothing out. I don't know if the impact was on the first, the second or the third big ledge. Maybe someone on the load can provide more accurate information.

Then, unfortunately, there's nothing new to be learned from this tragedy. Unstable wingsuit exits, especially from underhang exits are known to be deadly.

V

+1

 

High ultimate is not a wingsuit exit.
With the ramp, it look like a wingsuit exit, so people try, and fail.

Remove the ramp, and it's gonna look like a nice running pantz exit, and it's what it is ...

removing the ramp could help basers to understand sharply which type of jump is...boa sorte

My deepest heart felt condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.

I would have to disagree with your point MontBlanc, that the ramp is not a wingsuit exit. I made 15 jumps from the ramp in a wingsuit over the last three days. First, I really enjoyed myself, secondly I was able to train consistency, focus, and a strong push.

Please note I have only heard second hand accounts of the accident and this is not a criticism of the deceased or his performance.

After jumping with a friend a few weeks back, I brought up the fact that he didn't push very hard on exit. He argued that he begins flying faster when he doesn't push and that he only pushes hard when the exit requires it. With this accident and the requirements of the ramp, I'm reminded how crucial regular training, consistency, and pushing like your life depends on it at ALL exit points. Exits such as the ramp, Obiou, Pala 1, Chateau des Cartes (from the top) are just a few popular exits that require a strong push and if you plan on jumping from these, or similar exits, why not practice and perfect the push on all the jumps you do?

- Laurent Frat

i agree. i'm truly saddened by these unfortunate events. my deepest condolences...

HU is one of my favorite exits, but i've never attempted the ramp.

i love stepping off the rock way too much, and have never been there when it's snowy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J09qqBt3MYQ

Condolences :(
I love that jump with or without the ramp, it is just not the same jump. With a tracking suit and the ramp, you can push strongly to the right and reach the waterfall under the cable car after a nice proximity flight.
Without ramp you can only track straight ahead.
With a wingsuit i agree with the ones who chose the low exit, which forgives more head-down starts...

http://youtu.be/uEXC42SSit0

Fuuuuckkkk.... You can keep that sideways exit.....

Yes Laurent you're right for the mountain exits BUT lauterbrunnen is different because it's like a Disney BASE park ... And the ramp attract wingsuiters of all levels like a magnet

See u in sans Bet

I've always liked a strong push and those extra meters of safety margin it usually gives.

That said, here's a couple of "why nots" to consider when evaluating the risks of a particular exit point:


1. Sometimes, on a strong push, your foot slips. It can slip on a rock, on a ramp, or it can slip inside the bootie (that's for example how Karr explains his wingsuit LB wall strike). Eventually, statistically, it WILL slip, and you can only hope it's Brento and not the modern hilltop-style exit.

2. Sometimes, with a strong push, the exit will collapse. Happened to me at the top of R... de G... two years ago, and it was not fun.


You can also use the math to help you make a decision:


If you estimate a likelihood of unrecoverable slip on this nice ramp at a meager 0.1%, your chances to survive 15 jumps are still a healthy 98%. However, if you're hoping to live through 1000 jumps your chances drop to 36%. A probability to grow into 2000-jump Frenchie drops to pathetic 13%....

Okeeey... What's up with trying to make in on the list? And I'm not talking about the guest list for the Roxbury here... Keep that shit up and you won't get old son!

+1
some valid points, even if I disagree with your logic

 

While it cannot be certain exactly what happened. I have my own observations and opinions.

The ramp is not the issue here. With poor exit technique it is possible to go unstable in big suits on any exit. I have seen many people exit slightly too head-high with arm-wings not forward and fully open , resulting in swinging back down again, too head-low and inviting the possibility of the leg-wing driving them over the vertical and into the wall.

Remember that the two arm-wings plus the torso combined is much more surface area then the surface area of the leg-wing. Wing-suit pilots should understand the power of the leg-wing and also understand that keeping arm-wings open while exiting will counter this effect and help to stop going over the vertical from a slightly head high exit.

The ramp is not a difficult jump for experienced pilots. However it is not a place to fuck-up an exit. You have to know that you can exit properly there......otherwise stay away!

Lb is already an easy access place to jump and having the ramp there makes it very easy for even experienced jumpers to lose respect for this exit point.


Reiner.

Condolences to friends and family..

...now I'm just a 'lowly' skydiver, patiently awaiting my beginning in BASE, but even in my current position, through all my research and readings, I am well aware of the nature of this jump.

How is it that people are approaching this jump without enough experience? Who's telling them to give it a crack? Or on the other hand, why is someone not telling them to pull back and reconsider? Isn't that what mates are for?

No disrepect to the jumper, but the other day I saw a video of a guy doing his first tracksuit jump from the ramp. in a PTS. Again, I speak with no experience, but even just spending time on here, I'm aware that I should be getting into the standard suit before the PTS, much less taking it off HU on my first crack!

Hi everyones,
I read the post of this sadly news for many days, trying to understand one more times why this ramp had killed. I knew 2 guys who died here. At the begining I was against that ramp which give the illusion of a safe jump, but it is not. 4 death here show us that there is no chance for a little mistake and in wingsuit no.
Why this guys didn't walk back? I don't have the answer. What I know is that in BASE you should consider each jumps as the first one, because there is no easy jumps, everything can happen after the push. In BASE there is a rule: if you want to stay alive, don't not cross your red line. Sometimes you could forget it for many different reasons around you and inside yourself. If you go over your red line, pushing your limits, are you sure to manage everything wrong in this jump? Could you imagine what could happened really? What will be your margin with wall or ground? It is not only about your muscle skills, it is about what you know about BASE and this jump.
The only enemy is ourselves and bad luck. We should think that we have only one life and if we don't do this jump we will do the next one and our ego will survive not jumping!
This ramp is a challenge for some jumpers which have a close call with their fear and shadow there and make them happy.
I read a lot of good think here, but this lost is one more time too sad.
All my condolence to his family and friends.
RIP.
Take care.

It is the beast known as human nature and the valley known as Lauterbrunnen. The two combined offer great fun, excitement and thrilling experiences. Sadly, it also brings out hazardous behavior, stupid decisions and results in injury and death. It all comes down to classic risk assessment where we as humans have a great default. It pretty much goes like this:

When we assess risk and weigh pros and cons whether or not to go trough with an action (like jumping High Ultimate) we tend to look for the reasons why we SHOULD make the jump, rather than why we SHOULDN'T.

This is where it all starts to go wrong. I do it, you do it, we all do it - all the time. A perfect example of this would be a group of jumpers contemplating whether to jump or not - if there is an actual discussion about jumping, shouldn't that be reason enough to not do in the first place? Safety wise, of course it should. However, all that is needed is for someone to say "hey man I think we're gonna be fine". And then everybody starts going "yeah dude, of course, why wouldn't we be" and then the snowball starts rolling. Risk assessment is out the window now and you and your friends have assessed, based upon emotion and pure lust, that this is no problem.
Man I have been there so many times my self and it is dangerous. It is not necessarily wrong (we are emotional beings far more than logical) but it sure as hell leads to many shitty decisions with shitty consequences.

A) That's what people do.

B) Oftentimes no-one, sometimes some guy that doesn't know their experience, sometimes an inexperienced friend who's done it but doesn't get it, sometimes just youtube.

C) You can lead a horse to water... Even in the Valley, BASE is not like jumping at a DZ. You can't physically stop someone from jumping HU if that's what they're set on doing.

I realise that. I guess it was more a statement of shock regarding the number of bad decisions people make. Perhaps if DZs were less regulated, these would be the same people making shitty decisions there too.

Can anyone shed any light on the example I commented on? HU, ramp exit, first track, PTS. To me that seems ridiculous, but again, that's said with no experience.

It all depends. If he has skydived the suit some and jumped HU before and is current on both it's not problem IMO.
And just a comment to the regulation on a skydiving dropzone: people are killing themselves left and right under perfect canopies these days - how crazy is that, really?! Swooping right into the ground and six feet under... Regulation probably prevents a lot of incidents but people still find a way to kill themselves in a totally unnecessary and stupid manner.

Clearing the exit ledge is essentially unrelated to tracking ability or familiarity with the tracking gear used, but the general rule of new factor per jump to concentrate on is being broken. Ultimate also has a fairly pronounced lower ledge and talus that wouldn't be too friendly in the event of total tracking failure.

These days the fact that it's a first TS jump of any kind would indicate that it's likely a fairly low experience jumper as well, but that's an assumption without further info.

A more restrictive environment does not make people better at mitigating risk. Regulation doesn't make you more safety concious or more likely to make a proper risk assessment. What it does is limiting risk exposure, and in an activity such as BASE jumping where you have a very real element of danger, the only true way of limiting risk exposure is not to jump. If safety was your number one priority, you would not jump.

But safety is not your number one priority, so you jump. You expose yourself to risk. And when you do, a lot of psychological factors come in to play. Group dynamics is one. The "boogie fever" is another. You might see yourself as a safe guy, but most of the time it's because you're in an environment and a mindset that you percieve as very "solid" while it's really quite volatile.

It's easy to stand on the side lines, judging the behavior of others. Hindsight is always 20/20. Participate in an activity long enough and you will fuck up, and you will not know when you do until (hopefully) afterwards.

Condemning, judging or blaming the actions of yourself or others is not constructive. Good judgement is all about your attitude. You can see something bad happen, on youtube or with your own eyes, and go "man, that guy is an asshole, I would never do that!" only to find yourself in the same spot on another day.

You and I are but men. Be humble and acknowledge that fact. Maybe you will find yourself doing a low turn on the DZ one day out of complacency and regret it for the rest of your life.

Being humble and honest to yourself, and being open to others is... A Good Thing. IMHO, YMMV, &c.

Let Death (some one elses) be your advisor. It has worked for me for almost 25yrs. There are lessons to be learned. To me, the tragedy is not heeding the advice that some gave their life for.
But thats just me.
Will it turn into a numbers race like the suicides on the Golden Gate when they were approaching 200 (?) suicides people with signs trying to get a centuary suicide number? I know I am being extreme here. But the human psyche is extreme. Maybe for some, the more people who died from a high difficultly exit, the more attractive it is to jump. But thats not me. My style of jumping is just as condemnable as any other. to each his own.
take care,
space

Well said. Good post.

Two weeks ago w/suiting on the High Ultimate:
Jump 1: “shit that looks close.”
Jump 2: “shit that looks close but it’s just my mind messing with me.”
Jump 3: “No its actually really close and it wouldn’t be too hard to hit.”
Jump 4: “Actually it would be quite easy to hit.”

Mid day: decide that I will never ws hi ultimate again and do the next 30 jumps from other exits.

Sunday 5th May:-walk back from ws jump with Tron after we had jumped Via Ferrata joking about absent friends.
Monday-friend tells me Tron was killed on High Ultimate

Go figure.

Seemed like a great guy. Condolences to friends, daughter and family.

Jerome wrote:


And maybe your last one.

Before jumping a new object/exit/site, I used to write out my entry into the BFL describing the jump, my experience, and lessons learnt....

If it sounded like I was a fucking idiot, I didn't jump....

I spent time at the valley not jumping because of this very method...

VERY GOOD POST..

+1

Hey Space

That's why your still around after all those years..

Love your thoughts and I share the same .

I will miss Tron especially in a few weeks time as he was always there helping myself and others with heliboogie..

BSBD.

I am in no way an experienced wingsuit base jumper but I have been in and around the valley for over a few years and although been asked to jump HU I have never bothered with it.. I have jumped the ultimate and that was fun enough...

But that's my jumping traits

In the next couple of weeks the SBA will hold its annual meeting. During this meeting we will talk about the ramp and what the SBA's position is on this topic. Until then the SBA will not make an "official" statement.
As mentioned, the ramp was not set up by the SBA, it’s a private project. We do not own any exits in the valley, our only goals are to make jumping as save as possible and to keep jumping legal in Lauterbrunnen.
Opinions on this topic by SBA Members are private and do not necessarily reflect (until now) the SBAs view.

Everyone needs to read this again. Couldn't agree more on every point Reiner made.

Although I did not witness the jump, I was in the valley at the time, and from the sound of it, this was probably the case. Poor exit, resulting in a head low over rotation at 3-4 seconds. In a wingsuit, this is at LEAST a near death situation on ANY exit, a LIKELY death situation off THIS exit.

And again, not a difficult jump for experienced pilots. So enough discussion about poor decision making. The poor decision here was to BASE jump AT ALL. There is an incredible amount of inherent risk in EVERY jump and it only takes one instance of shit for luck to take your life. We all know the risks, and we've accepted them. So AGAIN, the ramp is not the issue here. Do people need to respect this jump more? Yes. But if you want to talk about how this incident could have been prevented, you should be talking about proper wingsuit exit technique. That's it.

Tangent question: Is High Ultimate the same ledge as Ultimate with the repel down to the little tree & cave (for lack of a better description)?

I haven't been to the valley in a few years and am trying to understand these HU fatalities. The Ultimate I jumped was a repel down to a ledge, then you needed a good push & exit to clear the underhung cliff below you. When I was there, there was no ramp.

I don't understand the desire to wingsuit that exit. Why not just go to Via Ferrata?

Thanks for the info.

High Ultimate exit is where you gear up before rappelling.

It means you need to clear the underhang down to Ultimate and the ledge under Ultimate. When the ramp's not there you have to take a running exit so wingsuiting it is effectively only possible with the ramp.

(OTOH wingsuiting low Ultimate isn't really a bigger deal than jumping it at all.)

+1