Basejumper.com - archive

A German news program attacks Red Bull for monetizing risky behavior by listing the various red bull related fatalities (Shane, Ueli, etc.) and putting it all to a foreboding soundtrack complete with crime scene esque replays in slow motion of their past jumps.

http://vimeo.com/65126571

I don't speak German, but it's pretty clear what they are getting at. Maybe someone who does can say something more interesting about the video.

In either case, just thought some people might want to come across this.

Well I was gonna watch the video
but it is 4 4 m i n u t e s l o n g
and I do not speak German either.

any publicity is good publicity .

at first place their brain will connect the events with danger and death ,
at second place though admiration and challenge will come up .some people leaving some people coming !

truth is that Redbull gives you wings if you basejump or not .

Sounds like a valid criticism to me.

Shouldn't jumpers make their own decisions about risk, without pressure from a corporate marketing department? Or fear that if they don't take bigger and bigger risks they'll lose their sponsorship?

A long, long time ago, a Red Bull sponsored jumper (who has since made it onto the List) told me that he "had to BASE jump" (his exact words) to maintain his sponsorships because his sponsors always wanted bigger and more outrageous things, and BASE was just the next thing in that line.

Sponsorship isn't some happy walk in the park where some guys with a lot of money just give it to you. It's a business deal made for marketing publicity, and if the corporate money men think you're not creating a big enough show, they'll toss you out in a heartbeat.

This documentary has chosen to focus on the negative aspect rather than the positive. The Red bull athletes need to band together and stick up for their brand.

Sponsors (Not just RB) offer certain individuals the opportunity to live their dream while making an income. They also help to keep some sports alive that would otherwise not have the funds to continue.

All these athletes would continue to do their respective sports regardless of the sponsors input. How many people have died in all these sports without sponsors? you don't see the documentary guys blaming Gear manufacturers for promoting adventure sports, so why blame sponsors.

I wouldn't call it bad press, I'd call it a miss-informed angle of viewing things.

P.s. is anyone going to add subtitles so I can be more informed of my opinions?

OH Tom, Tom, Tom....

you just couldn't be more wrong and out of context. The REd Bull jumpers would base jump anyway, even if they were not sponsored. this is evident in their hundreds of off camera base jumps.

They very much make their own decisions about risk as do all of us sponsored types.

yes, the reward for us is more than just personal satisfaction, there is an element of professional satisfaction and professional reward, but it is our choice to take the risks and it is inaccurate to say that we fear we will lose our sponsorships without taking bigger and bigger risks.

Through creativity and through expedition and production support, one can achieve something that is compelling and new, perhaps with margin at a lower risk level.

Your final statement: "Sponsorship isn't some happy walk in the park where some guys with a lot of money just give it to you. It's a business deal made for marketing publicity, and if the corporate money men think you're not creating a big enough show, they'll toss you out in a heartbeat."

How do you know? Are you sponsored? Did that happen to you? Because I am sponsored and I find loyal relationships that are mutually supportive. I have not seen that happen with any of the few major players that are sponsoring base jumpers. In fact, i see Red Bull in particular sponsoring great athletes well beyond their prime and championship winning years.

You may have a lot of experience base jumping tom and can speak as an expert there, but correct me if I am wrong but you may have zero experience with sponsor contracts.

I'm mostly working off conversations I've had with sponsored jumpers, and the issues they've had with their sponsors (and trying to keep their sponsors happy).

"If I don't do it, there's a hundred young guys waiting to grab my spot" is something I've heard more than once.

Do you think Ueli would have jumped that building in windy conditions if it wasn't for an event, or Eli would have proximity flown without a ton of proximity experience if it wasn't for a movie? I agree everyone would do their own stuff, and red bull has made a lot of dreams come true for a lot of people, but there are definitely people who do stuff they wouldn't otherwise do besides the fact they're getting paid. I remember talking to Mattias about his Iceland jump and him being sketched out by the conditions and feeling like he was forced to jump. At the end of the day, red bull wouldn't pay for these trips if they weren't getting video and commercial stuff out of it. Without sponsors, we wouldn't have a lot of the cool stuff in this sport that we do, but we also would probably have less people both pushing the envelope to get sponsors, and getting pushed to do what's next to keep them happy.

It's a double edged sword, but to say that sponsors haven't played a contributing role to anyone's death would be pretty short sighted.

You can get some really bad subtitle on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I2mrD-PEFE

First you got to enable Automatic Caption which probably generates the caption from the audio, and so losing some of the precision.

Then you got to set it to translate the German caption to English, ans so losing more of the precision.

Maybe someone else will add subtitles to it. I can only give you a brief summary of the documentary. In a nutshell they are criticizing Red Bull, and more specifically Dieter Mateschitz, as, shall we say, being too much of an enabler. They are questioning the sound decision making process of sponsored athletes and are wondering if people would make the same decisions without these sponsors.

They are listing a number of examples, not only BASE related, where the Red Bull sponsored event has lead to a fatality and are critical of the need for more and more dangerous stunts (in their view).
They use phrases like "if you haven't done (this or that), then you haven't lived at all" and are connecting it with the person having said that now being dead.

I guess it goes both ways, Red Bull sponsors extreme sports for their own marketing reasons. The people responsible for the documentary on the other hand are discrediting the fact that some people out there would perform these stunts regardless (I guess that would make it more of the mainstream point of view).

There is another marketing person interviewed and in his closing words he is wondering if advertising will be pushed too far and creating a negative public image coupled with resent.

I watched the video during my lunch break and didn't to back to review some of the finer details, but one could read some resentment into it. In the end it's probably an interesting perspective on how others would see extreme sports and their athletes. They may or may not understand our motivations.

Oh this sentence again... I lost count of how many times I've heard it (or similar) but I still laugh at it. It's one very arrogant thing to say.

Another of my favorites is "When I was a kid, I always wanted to fly!". No shit?! I've never met a kid who wanted to fly or be a pilot or car race driver or soldier or football player or a police officer ...

I have heard that one too. it transcends all businesses that involves physical performance and it holds true regardless of risk.

Here is the thing. The nature of a contract is that it is mutually agreeable. The companies sponsoring base jumpers are not forcing anyone's hands here.

Athletes put pressure on themselves.

To answer yoru questions"
"Would Eli have...?"
"Would Ueli have...?"
I have no idea. I never met those guys. But Shane, Shane would have.

This is a very interesting topic and one that I have been asnwering questions on in real life. It is easy to point the finger at the sponsor, but really, they are not the ones to blame. Its that damn gravity we try to ride. That is the cause of all of the deaths.

Poeple chose to jump and ride or compete in adverse conditions weather sponsored or not I have before and after being sponsored with the camera on or off. The sponsor has never been my reason to do or not to do. The craziest stuff I have done is not for anyone else I believe it's a personality not a compromise.

This is a good thread and an interesting/important topic. When push comes to shove, you are in the end solely responsible for your actions. But being aware of the factors around you that play a role in your actions and behavior is also crucial. I don't doubt for a second that big corporate sponsorship play a role in the way some people jump. When you sign that contract I am sure that you now feel a bit extra added pressure to perform and deliver. Especially if you see your self as an athlete and professional, it just comes with the territory. It's the same thing that IMO happens to a lot of people, including my self, when a camera or perhaps audience is added to the equation. How your jump looks on camera or to them suddenly plays a role . Maybe not a big role, but certainly a role.

Don't you think blaming the gravity for every single death in the sport is a bit easy too? Sure, death is caused by hard impact, but so many people avoid this on every successful jump by riding that gravity right. Cause of death is easy to pinpoint and not really that interesting to discuss, more important is all the little things that lead up to a fatal outcome

kodak-effect; people do stupid shit for cool videos. now, you multiply that effect by the amount of $$$ you get for doing it (or not). RB could be replaced by any sponsor really..

Great points, but i don't respond to people who do not post their names. it would be like having a face to face conversation with a man wearing a mask

toodle-loo

In those mutually agreeable contracts are the athletes fully exercising their ability and duty to negotiate terms that keep them safe and put most of the control of the jumps and logistics into their hands or are they just signing the contract that is offered to them? Most people will just sign on the dotted line when a lucrative offer is made and fail to negotiate or see all of the obligations of the contract. If it is not specifically stated in the contract that the jumper can call off the jump for whatever reason they may feel pressured because they are not confident enough in the negotiated contract are are fearful of losing the sponsorship.
An agreeable contract to one person may not be so to another so boilerplate contracts are to be avoided.

I think most jumpers would do the majority of the jumps regardless or not if sponsors were pushing it but they may not do them under the same conditions as when they are trying to do it on a certain day and weather conditions are not as conducive to jumping. Although, on the flip side, sponsorship also allows jumpers to do certain jumps in better conditions than if they were attempting bandit jumps from the same objects (daytime, no sneaking around, etc.).

Ultimately, in my eyes, it comes down to personal responsibility. The jumpers are responsible for their actions. From the inspection of gear to the signing and understanding of contracts, to choosing the best exit points, LZ's and weather conditions. Society loves to point the finger of blame to someone other than the individual and that is unfortunate. Believe me, I'm not a fan of the corporate monster that has taken over the globe but they are rarely to blame for causing peoples deaths. They may encourage, help or even suggest unsafe or harmful things for an athlete to do but no one is forced to accept or perform these things. It's a choice each and every time.... make a good one!

Are you sure this persons name is not Heat? I've heard some pretty strange (in my opinion) names before, maybe Heat is an old Scandinavian name passed down from their ancestors.

And hell, what is a name anyway? It's "a word or phrase identifying or designating a person or thing and distinguishing that person or thing from others." ~Blacks 9th.
So 'Heat' legally qualifies

It is imperative to do one's due diligence and sign a good contract. I don't make promises I can't keep. When a BASE demo is planned I always warn that there is something inherently impractical about saying "I will make a base jump at this exact time and place" due to conditions that are the ultimate deciding factor.

In my 17 years of making a living by endorsing products, specifically sponsor contracts, I have never had a sponsor, a supporter, or a big-name entity not FULLY understand that pre-stated disclaimer and not defer to my expertise. The "go/ no go" call has always been ultimately up to me with them being totally fine with it either way and I have faced this situation with the majority of the companies that are supporting BASE athletes at one time or another. Not all, but most.

You state that most people sign on the dotted line when a lucrative offer comes along. I can't speak for most people. I don't do that.

We must remember that most of these companies have actual humans behind them that have hearts and still feel super bummed when something bad happens and then step in. Red Bull, in particular, proves their loyalty many times over. Smith Optics, another case in point. I am not a Red Bull guy, but have big respect for them. It takes courage to put your reputation on the line by sponsoring dangerous sports and it takes class to back it up and stay the course when things go badly. Good for them for not pulling their support in the airborne category given what they have been through. Good for them supporting families of fallen athletes.

I see both sides of this, but am in a unique situation where I am seeing the insides and outsides of it as well. I hope I keep seeing what I am seeing.

It's not heat It's Magnus Heen, do you still find that strange?

Lol. Given the number of "anonymous" logins you've used here over the years, that's pretty funny.

Not blaming the sponsors, but I think the cause is sponsorship provides more opportunity. If all basejumpers(skydivers, general aviation pilots, motorcyclists) had the funds to do as much of their sports as they wanted whenever they wanted a lot more of them(us) wouldn't be here. That isn't the sponsors fault, winning lottery tickets would have the same effect.

that was back when you would ban us constantly for ANYTHING fun or delete posts that you were what you didn't like to hear.

You were really ban happy for a while there, and man we had some great arguments.

Fondly

914

Not taking any sides on this or saying who is right or wrong but I have to say I lol more or less everytime I read comments regarding the logins and their anonymity or the lack of it. There are some applications in the internet where the identity of the people can be verified up to a reasonable level (namely for example internet banking apps) but basejumper dot com surely is not one of them. I mean seriously, on my profile I claim that my real name is Markus and I live in Switzerland but how do you know if that is the case or not? Likewise I assume that the guy posting as "jtholmes" might be the world class free skier and reasonably well known base jumper called JT Holmes but also he might as well be John Doe from Arkansas who is running a corn farm for living. :)

I can definitely prove that he's Douglas Spink, and runs a horse farm in British Columbia.

Ok, that's to much! Go and ban yourself for minimum one week for this post...

YEP! Here's an example of my most favorite RedBull sponsored events that does just that! Ski In Peace, Shane! http://vimeo.com/65439783 That shits Cray!

Some good topics going here. As a tribute to JT who I have jumped with a few times, I have decided to chime in anonymously with my observations and opinions in relation to these three statements:

1. Redbull has blood on their hands.
2. What RedBull do is immoral
3. Is Red-bull good for the average non red-bull athlete?


1. Redbull has blood on their hands

Ok, so the movie says we have a giant stack of dead guys aged 30-40 dressed in blue and red. Young healthy men just don't die for no reason, so why did they die then? The movie deals with a few examples:
- Shane fell down a cliff without opening his parachute because his skis did not release
- Uelis legs snagged on a building, and he crashed into the concrete 30ft down.

Unlike Shane its obvious to me that the combination of backflips, skis, experimental binding releases, wingsuit and parachute screams out way too many deployment problems and snag hazards. Its a death trap.
And unlike Ueli it is obvious to me that a PCA on the first jump would have been essential to judge how much clearance to expect while passing that first building.

Although I probably have more jumps than both of these guys, Its hard to understand why these two experienced guys still go ahead with these incredibly stupid decisions. They are so stupid and poor that they actually even died from them.

Could it be that Red-bull caused them to make this decision?

Tom Aiello says that "if you don't perform, they toss you out in a heartbeat. "
Shanes father, Jim MCconkey says similary in the movie that Shane was always worried about these younger kids who always performs better and better.
In the ski movie Claim, Shane also asks himself if he can keep up with the younger whippersnappers.
So it seems like the question of pressure, and fear of getting replaced, is a relevant question to ask if we wanna find out what made them make such a stupid decision. Were these young men so desperately trying to perform and impress Red-bull that they died?

JT says. Its a contract. You are responsible for your own decisions. If you make sure your good decision making skills are respected in the contract theres no problem. In fact he has been sponsored for 17 years, and never had a problem. He even called off jumps every now and then because of conditions.
When Shane died, they even did a respectful and dignified memorial segment for him in the next ski-movie "In Deep". They are doing another full movie too. The new movie generates more $$$ and Redbull sells their drink even more. Everyone wins, what can be so wrong?
JT says Shane would have flown to the Dolomites anyway to do Aerial-WS-ski-base. I doubt it. I also doubt Ueli would have freefalled and not PCAd that building if he red-bull was not part of the deal. I doubt Eli would have crashed with a rock if he was not a 3D moviestar in a Red-bull movie. We will never know for sure. Well, except JT who knows for sure about Shane, but I still have my doubts.

2. Is what Red-bull do immoral?
I believe everyone has the right to choose for themselves. If you want to be a prostitute and satisfy some dirty old man, then go for it, If you wanna be a Red-bull kamikaze pilot then go for it. Its your life, your choice.
But I think its imperative to show the uttermost due diligence so that your decision is based on lots of information and weighing all available arguments for and against each other.
I think it is here that Red-bull does something immoral. They are doing their best to influence your decision making process in their favor. Their influence tools is to give you money, travels, you meet other awesome people, you maybe get to do Ted-talks, and meet& greet with the rich and famous people who think you are awesome. No doubt, these are ingredients and fantasies of many base jumpers.
In the German documentary Shanes wife Cheryl is asked for an interview. But it doesn't happen, Redbull cares so much about Cheryl that they advice her against it. But I can't help but wonder if Red-bull used the powerful tool of money to also influence her decision making process.

Also for new jumpers I think Red-bull is doing something immoral in the sense that they are presenting basejumping in an unbalanced way. In the Red-bull universe. People never die. And when they do, its with a cheesy movie tag-lined "You only have one life, live it". Either that or they just disappear from the "athlete gallery" on their website. Can you blame them? Probably not, how much caffein and sugar does dislocations, skull fractures and open spinal cords sell anyway? Should they even use this to sell sugar and caffeine even if it was in a balanced and ethical way? I don't know. Probably not.


3. Is Red-bull good for the average non red-bull athlete ?

RedBull doesn't affect my jumping much. I drink water on my hikes.

For the longest time it frustrated me how Jeb Corliss almost had monopoly on presenting basejumping to the general public. Every single time he kept yapping on and on about death, playing with snakes and getting eaten by planktons or whatever. For me as a basejumper it was getting a bit annoying to always have friends and colleagues thinking baseumpers belonged in mental institutions.

This has changed the last 3 or 4 years. People are still idiots, but the questions I get are more about squirrel suits and how close I can fly to ledges. Basejumpers are percieved less as mental cases and more like irresponsible cool dubstep adrenaline kids. I guess that is progress towards the better, and I guess it is naive to think the public will ever understand why me and everyone else are basejumping.

The only problem I see is that if the mountain of dead young men who drinks the Red-bull Kool-aid keeps growing much faster, then sooner or later the government or general public is going to turn against us. Death or serious injuries is never popular among parents or governments who were counting on grandchildren / 30 more years of economic productivity. I hope Redbull will have economic interests in keeping basejumping a relatively positive activity in the view of the general public. But I fear that it is similar to what Tom says. If its not making money, its out in a heartbeat.

Cheryl? He married his wife's sister-in-law? What a stud!

And Claim...WOW, you missed the whole punchline, buddy...starting with the title.

Troll much?

Your post is long and wrong. better luck next time.

Sherry - Cheryl, potato tomato.
Sorry I messed up the names and movietitles of your superhero.

Yeah, I troll quite a bit. Pissing off JT is always fun. But mostly that post was to give my opinion about the german documentary.

I think his message was short and right.
+1 for the not_sponsored ...

Corporate sponsorship isn't inherently good/responsible, nor is it inherently bad/irresponsible. Neither is jumping. That said, some corporations make irresponsible sponsorships (wrong athlete) and drive irresponsible behavior (wrong jump, wrong time). Similarly, some jumpers 1. shouldn't be jumping at all, or 2. shouldn't be jumping that object on that day.

A lot of posts on this thread are completely correct, but only when thinking about one sponsor, one jumper, or one situation. Real life and the decisions that each jumper or corporation make are much more complex. I've made lots of great decisions as has Red Bull, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean the next one is going to be a good one.

Individuals (as well as corporate "individuals") should be free to make whatever good or bad decisions they want (including entering into contracts of adhesion), so long as they live with the consequences. Unfortunately, the consequences from a bad decision usually travel further than any of us ever expect.